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Why 358/2 Days is a Poor Narrative Experience.



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Domination

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You get no Satisfaction from completing this game at all. The only time you do, is your first play through because you learn about the mysteries of the Organization. But i mean, this game rewards you with about 159 cutscenes of RXA eating salty Ice Cream...
 

Marx15

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He stuffed Xion in there, when she was supposed to be gone. And she talks to them through the grave, and told Riku to stop Roxas from what she told him to do in the first place.

It was so epic before. Just Roxas vs Riku, with no other character involved or intervening.


I don't remember a Sora/Kairi/Roxas plothole.

I never really understood this part actually...Why did she tell Riku to stop Roxas from doing what she told him to do?

You get no Satisfaction from completing this game at all. The only time you do, is your first play through because you learn about the mysteries of the Organization. But i mean, this game rewards you with about 159 cutscenes of RXA eating salty Ice Cream...

Just be glad they didn't go with the original plan, which was to have all 358 Days be playable...then it probably would've been something around 298 scenes of at least RA eating Ice Cream. With Xion in most of them too.
And it would've meant more repetitive missions, and killed it to death "Defeat The Heartless Within The World".
But since the DS couldn't handle a lot, it wasn't and neither was Pinocchio...but if all 358 Days were playable, then there probably would've been Pinocchio or more to fill in the open spaces. To add new scenery to the game, so it wouldn't feel so repetitive as it really is.
 

Marx15

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I swear would've been a little more bearable if the graphics were better.

Meaning the Organization cloaks wouldn't be square like they are in it. If this game ever does get a remake, then I'd see it for the 3DS and getting better graphics to match the system.
 

alexis.anagram

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Yeah, but it did work out in terms of... well, terms. I mean, life is indeed a cycle, or a circle. Either or. :p
Especially in KH, where all you need to do to come back from the dead is wake up.

And yeah, exactly. Also, I enjoyed how they even showed Xion manifesting as Ven in the vision of Xigbar. Though, honestly, the fact he said "You always looked like I just drowned your goldfish," made me think that Braig knew Ven better than he actually did.
Braig seemed to take his few interactions with Ven to heart. I'm not sure why. Even in BBS, he seemed particularly interested in Ven during his short meeting with him in the Keyblade Graveyard, taunting him and singling out his circumstances. He basically ignored Aqua even though she was his opponent. It's likely nothing, but perhaps there's a history there that we don't know about.

Also, I wonder if Axel got any closure after sacrificing himself for Sora.
As a character? Certainly. He finally put his friends before himself. That was his greatest conflict, in many ways; his inability to commit to sacrifice left him incapable of coping with situations that demanded compromise, so he generally ended up hurting everyone in order to manifest his own desired outcome. Axel liked being the wild card because it meant he never had to lose, but it also meant he could never really be a part of anything beyond himself; before Days, he likely didn't care, but as he observed the willingness with which Roxas involved himself with others he was moved considerably. Axel's thematic arc was his transition from a policy of self-isolationism in a vain effort to manipulate fate and circumstance to a fuller human character who was willing to be guided and to be hopeless-- ultimately, to give everything and receive nothing. His story is karmic in nature. Although, considering Axel is carrying on as Lea in DDD, I think his story's total closure is still to come.

Well it's because Xion is one of the biggest conundrums in the series, one that many find useless. As I said previously, people see Xion in the game and because of their feelings regarding her overall role, the rest of the game suffers immensely in their opinions. She tends to overshadow the rest of the game when people think about it.
I don't in any way believe that people should disregard Xion's impact in the game, I just think it's useless to evaluate it independent of how it informs Roxas's and Axel's behaviors and characters. Xion is in every way a dependent character; dependent upon a story that has already been told, upon characters who have already been established and upon an arc that is borrowed from the line of storytelling which had already been formulated. That's why I think she's sort of ingenious as a plot device-- she has no purpose other than to be there, yet her existence is self-correcting.

I think another reason that he lost so much when she died is because through her taking his energy (even manifesting in a mission where his level is halved due to Xion's presence as his partner) he grew somewhat dependent on her. He lost a lot of himself to her draining presence (which was as the Organization wanted), and when she vanished those parts of himself vanished with her. They're probably back once Roxas returned to Sora, but during the last day of Days, he is wounded by his loss. And that's probably another reason why he was so angry; not only had he lost Xion, but he'd also lost a large part of himself in the process.
One could certainly make fine arguments in that vein, as you have. Literally, Xion and Roxas were a part of each other; although technically Xion became a part of Roxas again at the end of the game and he was restored to his original state, more or less, it doesn't make the impact any less visceral or relative. The worst part is, Roxas was never given the freedom to form a decision in any of this, and as we're constantly reminded throughout the series, his motif is portrayed as a lack of any right to decide. DiZ tells Roxas he "doesn't have a right to know" what his purpose is, because he doesn't even have a right to exist. Xemnas uses Roxas without remorse, and even Xion ultimately tells Roxas what she is doing for him, without his informed consent. Roxas's entire existence is determined by everyone around him (and as I've mentioned before, how he and Xion react to this similar function in different manners is one of the more interesting points in the series), so his redemption can ultimately only come in finally making a choice to do what is right for his own reasons.

I mean at first he tried really hard to convince us that nobodies were supposed to look like their full persons. But then there was the inconsistency of some nobodies looking EXACTLY like their human counterparts, and some like Roxas/Namine looking quite different. But Nomura tried to convince you that Sora/Roxas and Kairi/Namine looked the same anyway, when in BBS he somehow became aware that Sora and Roxas look nothing alike and that it's all due to Ventus being involved.

He could take a question like "Why does Xion have black hair but kinda look like Kairi?" and make an entire damn game about it if he wanted. It's so stupid.
The thing about your argument is that so much of what we learn within the series at any given point is anecdotal; unless Nomura specifically speaks on the matter, it's hard to ever truly know what the reality of the situation is based on any character's personal exposition, as every character in KH is liable to lie or be mistaken or manipulated. However, it was clear beginning with KH2 that Roxas was not a normal Nobody, and numerous characters stated throughout the game that Namine isn't even properly a Nobody to begin with. I don't remember Nomura ever stating differently; from what I understand, when he talks about Nobodies in general, he is almost always referring to Nobodies who follow the conventional laws of their existence. Neither Roxas nor Namine, nor Sora's and Kairi's connections to them, have ever been considered conventional within the story, by anyone.


Also, he explained why Xion looks like Kairi with different hair in Days and it didn't take the entire game to do it. Hyperbole much.

He stuffed Xion in there, when she was supposed to be gone.
Xion wasn't totally gone at that point. Roxas still remembered her, as did Riku; she was fading, but she still held onto some shred of existence within Roxas (remember, when she "died" she was absorbed into Roxas; it's not like she just disappeared).
This is completely cross-canon and I know that goes against every rule of plot discussion in existence, but it seems relevant, so I'm going to cite a quote from Doctor Who which I believe is totally applicable to this perspective:

"Nothing is ever forgotten, not completely. And if something can be remembered, it can come back."

And she talks to them through the grave, and told Riku to stop Roxas from what she told him to do in the first place.
She wasn't talking to them from the grave because she wasn't dead because she was never alive (even by KH standards, she didn't have a Heart, so she would be considered symbolically nonexistent). She became a part of Roxas. And she never told Roxas to storm into the Organization's stronghold by his lonesome in order to wipe out Xemnas (whom he was nowhere near strong enough to face and she knew it). She didn't want Roxas to be destroyed, because she knew that would mean all hope was lost. Xion forced Roxas to absorb her because she wanted to become a part of Sora again; that was clearly specified as her intention. What she wanted Roxas to do was join with Sora, however, for Roxas, it wasn't as easy a decision as it was for Xion. I've talked about this with Mirby; Xion submitted to her fate because she built her identity upon her surroundings. Roxas couldn't bring himself to do that because he had constructed a powerful sense of Self which was grounded in his own beliefs and goals-- whereas Xion already had come to consider herself a part of everything and therefore was able to accept that she should disappear for the sake of the existence of everything, Roxas felt distinctly separate from the world and those around him. Throughout Days, he was constantly seeking affirmation of his spiritual and cognitive relationship to others; instead, all he discovered was how irrelevant he was truly thought to be by them. Roxas did the exact opposite of what Xion wanted him to do, because he was functioning from an opposing mindset. So, Xion appealed to Riku to see that Roxas did what was necessary, and once again, Roxas was denied affirmation of his individual significance. Brilliant thematic characterization tied directly into the plot in a clean way that makes sense and, far from detracting from it, actually adds a great deal of depth to that established story moment.

It was so epic before. Just Roxas vs Riku, with no other character involved or intervening.
It had no motivation before. Why did Roxas toss the key to Riku? Why did Riku turn so readily on Roxas? What was their common relationship? Before, it was a battle; Roxas tossed the key to Riku in order to fight Heartless, Riku turned on Roxas in order to force him to join with Sora, they didn't have a relationship except in their opposing interests. Days gives that scene so much-- everything from before remains true, yet it has become more than just a battle. It becomes a thematic crossroads; Roxas tosses the key to Riku in order to enact his own final tragedy at the behest of his closest ally, Riku turns on Roxas in order to ensure that Xion's sacrifice is not in vain, they are both effectively linked by the fading memory of a mutual friend and as such, they are not fixed enemies so much as they are manifestations of will. Simultaneously, there's an underlying inequity in Riku's victory; Roxas is fighting as much for Xion as Riku is for Sora. There isn't any justice in Riku's defeat of Roxas, which only compounds the tragic nature of the drama; where Riku finds his best friend, Roxas loses his.

I honestly don't see how people can disregard the strength of this kind of storytelling in Days. There is so much to sink your teeth into and much of what people complain about are misrepresentations of its strongest asset; enhancing the established narrative by offering informative subtext to what was initially resigned to the fallacy of circumstance.
 
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blueheart

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Xion told Roxas to "Free Kingdom Hearts". She never mentions Sora during her death scene.
Then says "Riku, you have to stop him", from doing what she told Roxas to do in the first place, free kingdom hearts.

Roxas was using Strike Raid but Riku caught it. That's why he "tossed" it to him.
What do you mean by 'turn readily'?
 

alexis.anagram

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Xion told Roxas to "Free Kingdom Hearts". She never mentions Sora during her death scene.
"I belong with Sora. And now, I am going back to be with him."

Source: English KH 358/2 Days Complete Ending Part 63 - YouTube

What she doesn't specifically say is for Roxas to fight the Organization. She tells Roxas he "can't let Xemnas have" Kingdom Hearts and asks him to do her a "favor". She wants him to set the hearts she captured free, but clearly Roxas is not capable of doing that on his own. What she's asking for might be ambiguous except that she had already stated she wanted to go back to Sora. Xion is asking Roxas to join back with Sora so that he can stop Xemnas. This also follows what she learned from Namine.

Then says "Riku, you have to stop him", from doing what she told Roxas to do in the first place, free kingdom hearts.
She tells Riku to stop him because he's not strong enough, because she didn't ask for him to take on the Organization by himself, and because she knows that if Roxas is destroyed, Sora will never be complete again.

Roxas was using Strike Raid but Riku caught it. That's why he "tossed" it to him.
You might be right about that. I always interpreted it as Xion's influence, because when Riku grasps the Keyblade he gets visions of her, and then she speaks to him. I thought she was trying to get a message across.

What do you mean by 'turn readily'?
I meant he started fighting Roxas immediately after they were both fighting the Heartless together.
 

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He wasn't going to fight the Organization. He was going to the top of the tower, which is closest to the Kingdom Hearts moon, and set it free, like she told him to do. Although the Organization would have fought him, he was still going to free it like she said to do.


They started fighting immediately because it's been stated in KH2 that Riku and Roxas have met and fought before. So they were enemies.

Diz: "He fought Roxas, and I can only surmise Riku lost that fight. He must have realized then, to fight in the realm of darkness, he would have to immerse himself in that same darkness. And when he did, you saw what became of him."

Riku: "Roxas betrayed them. After that I fought him because I thought it would help you wake up. I lost. But the next time we met, I made sure I was the stronger one."

But Days decided to ignore that, and left their first fight out of the game.
 

alexis.anagram

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He wasn't going to fight the Organization. He was going to the top of the tower, which is closest to the Kingdom Hearts moon, and set it free, like she told him to do. Although the Organization would have fought him, he was still going to free it like she said to do.
Defeating the Organization and Xemnas in particular was congruous to freeing the hearts that had been captured. You're splitting hairs; what I'm saying is that Xion did not want Roxas to free the hearts himself, she wanted him to return to Sora so that he could do it.

They started fighting immediately because it's been stated in KH2 that Riku and Roxas have met and fought before. So they were enemies.

Diz: "He fought Roxas, and I can only surmise Riku lost that fight. He must have realized then, to fight in the realm of darkness, he would have to immerse himself in that same darkness. And when he did, you saw what became of him."

Riku: "Roxas betrayed them. After that I fought him because I thought it would help you wake up. I lost. But the next time we met, I made sure I was the stronger one."
The first quote only indicates that Riku lost in a fight to Roxas, which he did. I've heard speculation that the second quote is a translation error or just awkward phrasing. Technically, "the next time we met" is vague enough that it could mean the immediate, subsequent battle that took place between the two of them after Roxas had gained the upper hand. Regardless, either there were never two fights or the first was retconned out of Days, so that still doesn't serve as an explanation within the story's presently established continuity. At any rate, all of those questions I posed were essentially rhetorical. Days gave the answer; Riku wanted to stop Roxas on behalf of Xion, and he knew that Roxas needed to become one with Sora again.
 

Marx15

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Diz: "He fought Roxas, and I can only surmise Riku lost that fight. He must have realized then, to fight in the realm of darkness, he would have to immerse himself in that same darkness. And when he did, you saw what became of him."

Riku: "Roxas betrayed them. After that I fought him because I thought it would help you wake up. I lost. But the next time we met, I made sure I was the stronger one."

But Days decided to ignore that, and left their first fight out of the game.

The first fight was when Roxas and Riku fought to begin with, before he turned into his Ansem SoD look. The second fight was supposed to be when Riku squeezed the life out of Roxas, knocking him unconscious.

I think the game would've been better had Roxas actually fought Ansem SoD Riku. Playing as Roxas in-game and having the final boss as Ansem SoD would've made that whole ending better.

But instead it was just Roxas getting squeezed. It was to show that he wasn't strong enough to battle the Organization.
But they still could've thrown in another battle.
 

Grey

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I played this game once, and then sold it. And while I played it, it was pretty freaking boring.

I agree that it was the game mechanics didn't fit the narrative. I kind of wish they had done everything they did, but in addition, formed the narrative to focus more on everyone trying to further their goals. I get the point in making every other Organization member emotionless and cold, but the Organization can still fake emotion. It would have been nice to see scenes with each Org. member, showing introspection and their desire/reasons for gaining hearts. Instead, the game was entirely Axel, Roxas, and Xion.

I also didn't like that Roxas was essentially played off as a mentally retarded child for most of the game. For the first half, he was more of a silent protagonist than anything, and it wasn't until the very, very end when he seemed to show any glimpse of the personality we first saw him with in KH2. His personality should have formed sooner. The naivety and the slow understanding of basic concepts of life could have been present alongside his moodiness and angst. None of that was really shown, though.

This fanservice game shouldn't have been made. It offered nothing for the series' story as a whole (besides something else for Sora and Riku to do in Dream Drop Distance).

I swear would've been a little more bearable if the graphics were better.

That's why I'd probably play it if there was a Re:358/2 Days for the Playstation, or for PSP, or something. Maybe the better graphics would make Roxas more emotional, and the other characters more engaging.
 

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I played this game once, and then sold it. And while I played it, it was pretty freaking boring.

I agree that it was the game mechanics didn't fit the narrative. I kind of wish they had done everything they did, but in addition, formed the narrative to focus more on everyone trying to further their goals. I get the point in making every other Organization member emotionless and cold, but the Organization can still fake emotion. It would have been nice to see scenes with each Org. member, showing introspection and their desire/reasons for gaining hearts. Instead, the game was entirely Axel, Roxas, and Xion.

I also didn't like that Roxas was essentially played off as a mentally retarded child for most of the game. For the first half, he was more of a silent protagonist than anything, and it wasn't until the very, very end when he seemed to show any glimpse of the personality we first saw him with in KH2. His personality should have formed sooner. The naivety and the slow understanding of basic concepts of life could have been present alongside his moodiness and angst. None of that was really shown, though.

This fanservice game shouldn't have been made. It offered nothing for the series' story as a whole (besides something else for Sora and Riku to do in Dream Drop Distance).



That's why I'd probably play it if there was a Re:358/2 Days for the Playstation, or for PSP, or something. Maybe the better graphics would make Roxas more emotional, and the other characters more engaging.

I doubt it. First off, they wouldn't remake the game, and second, graphics wouldn't make much of a difference, the game didn't really offer too much to start with, but it was a decent game. The music and the story, despite having it's weak points, pulled the game along, and it wasn't a terrible game by any means. But still, a remake wouldn't fare too well, considering how much it was criticized by the fanbase.
 

Sephiroth0812

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I also didn't like that Roxas was essentially played off as a mentally retarded child for most of the game. For the first half, he was more of a silent protagonist than anything, and it wasn't until the very, very end when he seemed to show any glimpse of the personality we first saw him with in KH2. His personality should have formed sooner. The naivety and the slow understanding of basic concepts of life could have been present alongside his moodiness and angst. None of that was really shown, though.

That's why I'd probably play it if there was a Re:358/2 Days for the Playstation, or for PSP, or something. Maybe the better graphics would make Roxas more emotional, and the other characters more engaging.

Sorry but that was one of the central points of the story, Roxas does have the mindset of a little child because that's what he is...barely a year old despite any appearance.
He started from nil/null/nada whatever you want to call it.
The personality we saw in KH2 was partly the one he developed out at the end of Days and partly fabricated by Naminé brainwashing him.
What do you think the "dreaded" Ice-cream-line at Xion's disappearance in-universe really means? It's neither meant to be funny nor untactful on Roxas's part.
It smacks it deadly in our faces just how basic and simple Roxas's mindset still is...as he associates the most important thing in a friendship with eating ice-cream together.
It's the symbol and main definition of friendship in his still largely underdeveloped view of things.
The Organization being a bunch of emotionless assholes weren't exactly the best teachers along and only cared for Roxas to slay heartless and further their agenda anyways.

It was actually discussed by Xemnas, Xigbar and Saix in regard to Xion...her gaining a will and sense of self of her own was actually a hindrance because she ceased to be a malleable puppet...Roxas fits this in much the same vein.

Roxas did show much more emotion than any other Org member out there though, even if it was mostly through the talk sprites and not the actual graphics, but that's, like said, more a problem of the DS.
 

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I didn't say better graphics would make it good. I meant a little more bearable for the first time playing it.

Switching it to a console is pointless. The game would still suck.


It's funny how people try to rationalize the game's fault points, like above for Roxas's personality.
 

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It's funny how people try to rationalize the game's fault points, like above for Roxas's personality.

And I find it borderline pathetic to cast anything as a fault point despite maybe, maybe it isn't even a fault point?
Personal bias much? Or more like not really understanding it.
What I wrote about Roxas personality above is not a fault point, it was conveyed like that in the game because that's how it was meant.

What was faulty with Roxas's personality as a whole in Days was his overblown fixation on Xion and being way too passive in some situations, not his general mindset.
 

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The story in KH'Days had a lot of issues. However, I think one of the biggest issues was this: Xion should have been the main playable character instead of Roxas.

The story as it exists now is not Roxas' story. It was Xion's story. Hardly any of external plot was developed from Roxas' perspective. Roxas hardly had any idea what was going on in at any point of the game. Roxas wasn't ever informed about all the important stuff going on behind the scenes, and he never became fully aware of the story developing around him.

If the story had to remain exactly the same, then it would have made more sense for Xion to be the main playable instead of Roxas, since the story was specifically designed to focus on Xion.
 

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The story in KH'Days had a lot of issues. However, I think one of the biggest issues was this: Xion should have been the main playable character instead of Roxas.

The story as it exists now is not Roxas' story. It was Xion's story. Hardly any of external plot was developed from Roxas' perspective. Roxas hardly had any idea what was going on in at any point of the game. Roxas wasn't ever informed about all the important stuff going on behind the scenes, and he never became fully aware of the story developing around him.

If the story had to remain exactly the same, then it would have made more sense for Xion to be the main playable instead of Roxas, since the story was specifically designed to focus on Xion.

Entirely correct and agreed upon.

The main error of the whole story was not the fact that Xion existed, no, it was the fact that the plot was overcentered on Xion.
The focus was way too much solely on her.
 

Grey

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I doubt it. First off, they wouldn't remake the game, and second, graphics wouldn't make much of a difference, the game didn't really offer too much to start with, but it was a decent game. The music and the story, despite having it's weak points, pulled the game along, and it wasn't a terrible game by any means. But still, a remake wouldn't fare too well, considering how much it was criticized by the fanbase.

-I don't know why they wouldn't remake the game if they remade CoM and Coded just fine.
-The graphics would make it more enjoyable to play, at least. A big turn-off was the lack of emotion present on everyone's faces and the fact that they looked like tiny 100x100 pictures blown up to 500%.
-Then they can do a "358/2 Days Final Mix +/-" or something to fix the gaping mistakes they made the first time.

Sorry but that was one of the central points of the story, Roxas does have the mindset of a little child because that's what he is...barely a year old despite any appearance.
He started from nil/null/nada whatever you want to call it.
The personality we saw in KH2 was partly the one he developed out at the end of Days and partly fabricated by Naminé brainwashing him.
What do you think the "dreaded" Ice-cream-line at Xion's disappearance in-universe really means? It's neither meant to be funny nor untactful on Roxas's part.
It smacks it deadly in our faces just how basic and simple Roxas's mindset still is...as he associates the most important thing in a friendship with eating ice-cream together.
It's the symbol and main definition of friendship in his still largely underdeveloped view of things.
The Organization being a bunch of emotionless assholes weren't exactly the best teachers along and only cared for Roxas to slay heartless and further their agenda anyways.

It was actually discussed by Xemnas, Xigbar and Saix in regard to Xion...her gaining a will and sense of self of her own was actually a hindrance because she ceased to be a malleable puppet...Roxas fits this in much the same vein.

Roxas did show much more emotion than any other Org member out there though, even if it was mostly through the talk sprites and not the actual graphics, but that's, like said, more a problem of the DS.

None of this changes the fact that I didn't like it. When a game's main protagonist has absolutely no personality for almost literally the ENTIRE GAME, and nothing much is really said about it, there is something wrong. If Roxas could have shown his development better, or if Roxas' lack of personality/identity could have been a larger plot point, it would have been bearable. But playing as a one-year old is not fun when the game practically glazes over it.

On that related note, Roxas shouldn't have been the protagonist, I agree. The story ultimately had a lot less to do with him than the game made it seem, and all of the true plot-moving scenes featured Xion. Had the plot focused on Roxas' development, Roxas' thoughts, and on showing depth into Roxas' perceptions of the world, it would have justified him being the main character. Yeah, seeing Xion freak out in Destiny Islands and watching her story unfold was nice, but if the game is about Roxas, it should have been about Roxas.

(And, if Xion had been the protagonist, it would have made her message to Riku during the Deep Dive battle much more meaningful. Having her as the player character would have given us more reason to like her, and thus there'd be more emotion when the character you played as suddenly is heard again, passing on one final message before never being heard from again.)
 

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Except that if it wasn't painted as "Roxas' game", and flaunted the Organization members, no one would really buy it. Who's going to care about Xion's story? There's no point on even counting sales.

Of course, the consequence of that was half the fandom hating Xion and 358/2 Days. So...
 

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The Organization being a bunch of emotionless assholes weren't exactly the best teachers along and only cared for Roxas to slay heartless and further their agenda anyways.

It was actually discussed by Xemnas, Xigbar and Saix in regard to Xion...her gaining a will and sense of self of her own was actually a hindrance because she ceased to be a malleable puppet...Roxas fits this in much the same vein.

That may be somewhat true, but some of them wanted Roxas to think for himself as well. He would ask them questions and then they make him come up with an answer. Lexaeus is the only one to strike at him during missions. I know it was for the game purposes of health, but still it wasn't something you would expect. If they were annoyed or not it was rare that most of them would abandon him unless they were testing him. Unless you count Demyx. He didn't really care at all for the missions.

Except that if it wasn't painted as "Roxas' game", and flaunted the Organization members, no one would really buy it. Who's going to care about Xion's story? There's no point on even counting sales.

Of course, the consequence of that was half the fandom hating Xion and 358/2 Days. So...

That is very true. It was the only reason the game did so well.

The organization were and still are mysterious shadows and that fans still want to know all of their true names, orgin and background. At least people got to play as their favorite organization member though they should of been made it avaiable to play online. I don't hate 358/2days and still play it. Not much of an Xion fan either, but it would be better if she was her own person.
 
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