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Why 358/2 Days is a Poor Narrative Experience.



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Wehrmacht

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Whether you agree with these assessments are not is going to depend on how literally you observe the series and this installment especially. I've chosen to observe it not as a play-by-play, scene-by-scene construction of an obvious narrative, but a deeper and looser conceptual design of characters and themes. It's why I think the game is so fantastic and why it still holds as one of my absolute favorites next to Chain of Memories, which is similarly composed. In the end, Kingdom Hearts to me is about people; it is about their folly as they strive for wisdom and power, their willingness to give to others and share with others, how they contrive means of hurting others, how they establish healthy connections with others. 358/2 Days uses all of these elements to construct a powerful cast and storyline which emphasizes the nature of the Heart as an instrument of expression of our most human faults and accomplishments.

you sure like to make things sound a lot deeper than they actually are, don't you?
 

blueheart

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Probably not most, but judging from the responses to that post, it's apparent that some have.

You mean since they played the game or since they read that post?

This is basically proof that it is a poor narrative and portrayal of that, since this wouldn't be as obvious to people who don't get the subtlety, that is that tiny.
 
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Mirby

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You mean since they played the game or since they read that post?

This is basically proof that it is a poor narrative and portrayal of that, since this wouldn't be as obvious to people who don't get the subtlety, that is that tiny.

How is that proof of anything? I mean, if you're happy with it then so be it, but others like myself may want a concrete explanation of how that proves anything at all.

Also, I got the subtleties when I played Days too. I love Days, because they told it in a great way. I used to love unlocking the bits of story slowly but surely. As if I were Roxas, when Xion was asleep I rushed through the missions as fast as I could just so I could see the next day, see if she'd awake. I feel that the narrative was very well-told, especially considering the fact that it takes place over that long of a period. Hell, if you count the days in KH2's tutorial and add them to the days in this one (358), you get 365. A solid year. So the narrative worked well for being stretched out over that timespan. And in that time, he grows... and it shows in everything he does. When he first starts out, even his diary entries are empty and bland (the names are Entry xx), but as the year passes by and all these events happen... he grows. He learns, he loves, he loses... The classic events that have taken place over millions of lives in millions of stories... compressed into a year's span. And by the end of it... he'd give up everything for what he wants. But his rage and willingness to lose it all is tempered by the knowledge that he is part of Sora, and that he'll have to return to Sora so everyone can be saved.

This also sets up the exact reason as to how he is tormented; he wishes to just be normal and have a normal live, but when one doesn't technically exist one can never be normal. Knowing this and still dreaming of a life like that... it would torment anyone. Especially when he had it for that very brief time at the start of KH2. I mean, he accepts it by the end of 2 out of necessity, but with the type of personality that Roxas has, he's not going to let go of it that easily.

The subtleties are there if you look for them; you don't need a post to tell you where. They aren't that hidden; anyone can find them if they look. And if they don't, then maybe they can learn from these posts about the knowledge contained within and its significance to the overall storyline, then look for the subtleties themselves.

They may be subtle, but they aren't almost invisible.
 

Shadow Key

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"So... friends are people who have ice cream together?"

"Sort of..."

Thus, in Roxas's mind, ice cream=friendship. He was basically asking who would be his friend if she left. It's heartfelt in context.

Oh, that makes sense now! Still kind of a crappy line, imho. I think it should've been explained better.

I'm starting to think Days should've been a short film or anime or something other than a game. It seems more logical... I mean, it's not like Square's not good with animation or anything. Hell, when I was playing FFXIII all I could think was "They're just begging America to let them make movies now."
 

Hillboy

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I would probably liked Days more if it didnt have the missions, it was just boring. I gave up on it and played through the important missions and cutseens since mine was preowned and the dude who had it already beat it
 

alexis.anagram

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I enjoyed Days when I played through it myself. I wanted to add another thing to this, though, if you don't mind.

So Days is the story of Roxas's time in the Organization. The game proceeds in a day-to-day manner (except when it skips chunks of them, but there was always a story-related reason for that) as such. Just because this is Kingdom Hearts doesn't mean that CRAZY INSANE ACTION HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE DAY! It's like life, and as a.a said above, life is a thematic element of the story (referencing the first part of the counter-argument).

Consider this. If you were to look at how long it takes Sora on any of his adventures compared to Roxas's time, you'd see it is far far shorter. Sora finishes his quests in a matter of days. 358/2 Days takes place over the course of a year. If life is the thematic element of the game, then why should there be insane events every day in the game if life, the central focus, isn't like that at all. Life is rather uneventful at most times, and Roxas's missions are akin to jobs in real life (they can be fun, but they can also get rather repetitive). You're playing as Roxas as he is in the employ of the Organization to gather hearts. He befriends one of his superiors and they hang out. It's rather normal, and when you keep in mind that the game takes place over a year, it starts to make sense why everything is as it is in Days. I find it to be rather compelling, seeing one character develop from a lifeless shell into one with loads of personality, and then see how they deal with everything around them.

Also, in reference to your line about the sunrise and sunset, that's probably why they made Twilight Town in the first place. To reference the circle of life that everyone goes through, and how birth is like a sunrise and death, the sunset. Twilight Town captures the moments in-between, which works for Nobodies as they kinda live an in-between existence (by which I mean that though they technically don't exist, the fact that they have a physical form gives them some semblance of existence, and as such are neither one nor the other; they are in-between). Watching the sunset in Twilight Town with his friends after each mission reflects that fact rather well.

If you stop looking at how you may think that Days is a horrible abomination and Xion is horrible, and instead study the nuances of the story progression and character development while also factoring in the relatively lengthy timespan that the game takes place over... Days is actually a very good game.
Very good points. The span of time the game takes place over when compared to the other installments is hardly ever referenced when players evaluate the format of storytelling utilized in Days.

The thing is, both Xion and Roxas begin as empty people; no memories, no feelings, no opinions. Their experience is coincidental-- up to a point. When it diverges, we find Roxas developing a sense of self and Xion developing a reflective notion of her environment; Roxas humanizes himself where Xion insists on objectifying her persona. I think it's fascinating to watch the dichotomy function between the two of them as the closer they become, so the more imperative their fates. Also, it provides an intriguing scenario for Axel as the involuntary mainstay of their friendship, making most of the difficult decisions; he's a bit of a patriarch, shouldering the guilt and blame of tough choices for the greater good. I'd like to see him find redemption.

Twilight is also the period of time leading into the evening and nightfall, where sleep (i.e. death) occurs. Roxas, Xion and Axel, in Days, are living on the brink of nightfall. You're absolutely right; in the image of the three of them sitting at the clock tower in the glow of the sun, we are reminded of both the warmth and the precariousness of their human connections. In the end, Xion dies, Roxas is reborn and Axel is left haunted by their time together.

You've made a good statement on another, less precise but still relevant, matter: the call for instant gratification. It's interesting to see the contrast between 358/2 Days and Birth By Sleep, to me. BBS was a sequence of events, an unending influx of plot material and context which felt very short despite playing as three different characters. 358/2 Days was unhurried and relied far more heavily on subtext to tell its story, with the actual presentation of the plot coming off as rather simple and momentary, rather than momentous. BBS was constantly climactic and Days was deliberately unaffected, and I thought both worked for the stories they were telling. However, Days is the anomaly in the sequence as the KH games tend to pattern themselves closer to the heroic drama, so I can see the warmer affiliation with BBS: in Days, there were no heroes, freeing it to explore a greater catharsis than the other stories. Days was a classic tragedy that was always about where the journey lead and not how the journey manifested. I think a lot of audiences, especially in video games, take issue with that as they expect a steady reinforcement of what they are experiencing in the form of essential cruxes within the plot and direct indications of their significance. Instead, Days offered implications of its characters' mentalities, conflicts and developments, which is of less immediate interest to many, and it isn't until the final moments that you're meant to accept the full thematic scope of the story. It's very Shakespearean, or perhaps just thespian, in its execution.

This is basically proof that it is a poor narrative and portrayal of that, since this wouldn't be as obvious to people who don't get the subtlety, that is that tiny.
It's not "tiny", as that indicates immateriality; it's subtle and indirect. Some of the greatest narratives invest heavily in the virtues of incident and subtext.

Not to sound crass, but your lack of comprehension does not constitute a poor narrative; it constitutes a lack of comprehension. I am only interpreting what is present and prevalent within the narrative itself. If some relate to that perspective, then we've found common ground. If others disagree with it, they are free to subscribe to their own rationalizations. However, your argument amounts to stating that a person's work is a fallacy because its viewership is fallible.
 
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Mirby

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Very good points. The span of time the game takes place over when compared to the other installments is hardly ever referenced when players evaluate the format of storytelling utilized in Days.

The thing is, both Xion and Roxas begin as empty people; no memories, no feelings, no opinions. Their experience is coincidental-- up to a point. When it diverges, we find Roxas developing a sense of self and Xion developing a reflective notion of her environment; Roxas humanizes himself where Xion insists on objectifying her persona. I think it's fascinating to watch the dichotomy function between the two of them as the closer they become, so the more imperative their fates. Also, it provides an intriguing scenario for Axel as the involuntary mainstay of their friendship, making most of the difficult decisions; he's a bit of a patriarch, shouldering the guilt and blame of tough choices for the greater good. I'd like to see him find redemption.

Twilight is also the period of time leading into the evening and nightfall, where sleep (i.e. death) occurs. Roxas, Xion and Axel, in Days, are living on the brink of nightfall. You're absolutely right; in the image of the three of them sitting at the clock tower in the glow of the sun, we are reminded of both the warmth and the precariousness of their human connections. In the end, Xion dies, Roxas is reborn and Axel is left haunted by their time together.

You've made a good statement on another, less precise but still relevant, matter: the call for instant gratification. It's interesting to see the contrast between 358/2 Days and Birth By Sleep, to me. BBS was a sequence of events, an unending influx of plot material and context which felt very short despite playing as three different characters. 358/2 Days was unhurried and relied far more heavily on subtext to tell its story, with the actual presentation of the plot coming off as rather simple and momentary, rather than momentous. BBS was constantly climactic and Days was deliberately unaffected, and I thought both worked for the stories they were telling. However, Days is the anomaly in the sequence as the KH games tend to pattern themselves closer to the heroic drama, so I can see the warmer affiliation with BBS: in Days, there were no heroes, freeing it to explore a greater catharsis than the other stories. Days was a classic tragedy that was always about where the journey lead and not how the journey manifested. I think a lot of audiences, especially in video games, take issue with that as they expect a steady reinforcement of what they are experiencing in the form of essential cruxes within the plot and direct indications of their significance. Instead, Days offered implications of its characters' mentalities, conflicts and developments, which is of less immediate interest to many, and it isn't until the final moments that you're meant to accept the full thematic scope of the story. It's very Shakespearean, or perhaps just thespian, in its execution.
Y U NO COMMENT ON CIRCLE OF LIFE JOKE? :p

In all seriousness though, it really is a tragedy. If you look at the classic definitions of comedy and tragedy (especially in relation to Shakespearean-era works), you'll see that comedy is disorder to order, whereas tragedy is order to disorder. KH1 and KH2 kinda fall into the definition of comedy (in that everything starts out messed up for the most part, and at the end of it order has been restored to the worlds), but BBS and Days are both tragedies.

Whereas BBS was a much faster series of events that led to the tragic fates of TAV, Days was much slower, and therefore much more deliberate. Because all the events in Days were pretty much the machinations of the Organization (except for DiZ and Riku), and Roxas was a member of the Organization... you got to see the gritty details that set up a lot of events in KH2. Without Days, we'd have no context as to why Xaldin was so focused on Beast, aside from him maybe just following orders. Through our stay in these worlds, slow as it was, we slowly got to see the pieces fall into place for some of the events in KH2.

I played KH2 again after beating Days, and there's a lot of little things in the short time that you play as Roxas that link back to things in Days and make even more sense than they did the first time I played (which, naturally, was before Days had come out). I find it rather cool that the narrative in KH2 was enhanced after playing a game that came out after it; a rather nice touch, really.

But yeah. Days is definitely a tragedy. Roxas starts out where everything seems orderly (no doubt due to his relatively-blank state), and then wrinkles slowly get introduced that slowly but surely shatter the order and reveal everything to be rather fragmented. And as the days go by, everything starts to change. By the time you reach Day 258 (or whatever day it shows in the cutscene with Axel at the start of the game), everything is in full motion to come crashing down. Roxas is ready to take down the organization on his own at the end of it, until Riku stops him so that Sora may awaken.

As I said, in the year-long span of Days, Roxas goes through a lot of developments. As does Xion, for that matter. They both start out blank, but then struggle to have their own identities. And once that divergent point meets... it all changes. Roxas knows that he is but a part of Sora, and so struggles to maintain an identity he ought never have had in the first place. Xion is ready to absorb the identities of those around her, since she knows that is what she was made to do. But at the end of it... she knows that she too must return to Sora, and through following orders she is delivered salvation of a sort at the hands of Roxas. As we all know, this is what fuels his rage to destroy the Organization. It's even backed up in game, when Riku points out to Roxas that he (Roxas) can't even remember her name.

It's superbly presented, and the day-to-day format works wonders fr the presentation.

The main problem I see is that too many people hate Xion (to the point of there being a fanclub here about clubbing her with a club), and therefore the whole game stinks because of her. But in reality, she is possibly more tragic than Roxas ever was. At least Roxas had somewhere to go to; Xion was manufactured specifically for the purpose of using the Keyblade, and as such had no true home to return to, no "other" as Roxas calls Sora.

Forgive me if that got a bit rambly there... D:
 

Ronove

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I agree totally. Games are different mediums entirely, and if the gameplay is not up to snuff or structured well, everything in the game, including the story, will suffer.
 

alexis.anagram

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Y U NO COMMENT ON CIRCLE OF LIFE JOKE? :p
Because it would have led to a whole tangent of thought which would have had me linking up characteristics between Roxas and Simba and how The Pride Lands in KH2 actually serves as a metaphorical vessel for Roxas's experiences in Days which Sora unknowingly affiliates with. In other words, NONSENSE. x'D

In all seriousness though, it really is a tragedy. If you look at the classic definitions of comedy and tragedy (especially in relation to Shakespearean-era works), you'll see that comedy is disorder to order, whereas tragedy is order to disorder. KH1 and KH2 kinda fall into the definition of comedy (in that everything starts out messed up for the most part, and at the end of it order has been restored to the worlds), but BBS and Days are both tragedies.
Yes. Although the KH series is a bit contemporary to be restrained by classic definitions of drama, and that's why I think Days is the purest drama we've gotten out of the KH series. Even BBS, as a tragedy, was in many ways an ordered event; Aqua, Ven and Terra all end up neatly positioned, wherever they are (as Blank Points states, "The pieces lie where they fell"), but Days is inconclusive except for KH2. All of the order which is built over the course of the story is demolished by its resolution; Xion's fate is unclear, Roxas is left confused and controlled again, Axel's friendship with both of them (which is the only thing he had come to value and therefore his only humanizing asset) is undone. It really is chaos in its conclusion, except that we know where that chaos leads in KH2.

Whereas BBS was a much faster series of events that led to the tragic fates of TAV, Days was much slower, and therefore much more deliberate. Because all the events in Days were pretty much the machinations of the Organization (except for DiZ and Riku), and Roxas was a member of the Organization... you got to see the gritty details that set up a lot of events in KH2. Without Days, we'd have no context as to why Xaldin was so focused on Beast, aside from him maybe just following orders. Through our stay in these worlds, slow as it was, we slowly got to see the pieces fall into place for some of the events in KH2.

I played KH2 again after beating Days, and there's a lot of little things in the short time that you play as Roxas that link back to things in Days and make even more sense than they did the first time I played (which, naturally, was before Days had come out). I find it rather cool that the narrative in KH2 was enhanced after playing a game that came out after it; a rather nice touch, really.
And as a companion to KH2, that's also part of Days' job. It's meant to build upon the premise of the character of Roxas introduced in KH2. It's interesting how many people confuse that fact by redefining the story as if it strictly adheres to Xion's role, to the point that Roxas and Axel hardly enter the conversation.

But yeah. Days is definitely a tragedy. Roxas starts out where everything seems orderly (no doubt due to his relatively-blank state), and then wrinkles slowly get introduced that slowly but surely shatter the order and reveal everything to be rather fragmented. And as the days go by, everything starts to change. By the time you reach Day 258 (or whatever day it shows in the cutscene with Axel at the start of the game), everything is in full motion to come crashing down. Roxas is ready to take down the organization on his own at the end of it, until Riku stops him so that Sora may awaken.

As I said, in the year-long span of Days, Roxas goes through a lot of developments. As does Xion, for that matter. They both start out blank, but then struggle to have their own identities. And once that divergent point meets... it all changes. Roxas knows that he is but a part of Sora, and so struggles to maintain an identity he ought never have had in the first place. Xion is ready to absorb the identities of those around her, since she knows that is what she was made to do. But at the end of it... she knows that she too must return to Sora, and through following orders she is delivered salvation of a sort at the hands of Roxas. As we all know, this is what fuels his rage to destroy the Organization. It's even backed up in game, when Riku points out to Roxas that he (Roxas) can't even remember her name.

It's superbly presented, and the day-to-day format works wonders fr the presentation.

The main problem I see is that too many people hate Xion (to the point of there being a fanclub here about clubbing her with a club), and therefore the whole game stinks because of her. But in reality, she is possibly more tragic than Roxas ever was. At least Roxas had somewhere to go to; Xion was manufactured specifically for the purpose of using the Keyblade, and as such had no true home to return to, no "other" as Roxas calls Sora.
I consider Aqua and Xion the two most tragic characters in Kingdom Hearts. Both have a strong concept of self-preservation which deters manipulation of their personalities and actions, yet both are forced to compromise that quality in order to realize a greater good at personal, drastic costs. But, as I've said, ultimately, Xion's tragedy is Roxas's tragedy; her death fuels the dissolution of his sense of self. As he comes to lose his memory of her, his understanding of who he is fails as well, because so much of his identity comes closely linked with what he knows about her.

Never apologize for rambling. It's the foremost privilege of those who think. ;]
 

zaqareemalcolm

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Eh, I didn't mind the slow pacing of Days. I didn't have time to play so much (Like, 1 to 3 hours tops), especially with Sec 2 work. So I just didn't feel that the game was too damn repetitive or dragged out.
 

Mirby

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Because it would have led to a whole tangent of thought which would have had me linking up characteristics between Roxas and Simba and how The Pride Lands in KH2 actually serves as a metaphorical vessel for Roxas's experiences in Days which Sora unknowingly affiliates with. In other words, NONSENSE. x'D
Yeah, but it did work out in terms of... well, terms. I mean, life is indeed a cycle, or a circle. Either or. :p

Yes. Although the KH series is a bit contemporary to be restrained by classic definitions of drama, and that's why I think Days is the purest drama we've gotten out of the KH series. Even BBS, as a tragedy, was in many ways an ordered event; Aqua, Ven and Terra all end up neatly positioned, wherever they are (as Blank Points states, "The pieces lie where they fell"), but Days is inconclusive except for KH2. All of the order which is built over the course of the story is demolished by its resolution; Xion's fate is unclear, Roxas is left confused and controlled again, Axel's friendship with both of them (which is the only thing he had come to value and therefore his only humanizing asset) is undone. It really is chaos in its conclusion, except that we know where that chaos leads in KH2.
It actually is one of those games that you need another to play. Thankfully, the other game was out beforehand and was probably played by a lot more people than days.

And yeah, exactly. Also, I enjoyed how they even showed Xion manifesting as Ven in the vision of Xigbar. Though, honestly, the fact he said "You always looked like I just drowned your goldfish," made me think that Braig knew Ven better than he actually did.

Also, I wonder if Axel got any closure after sacrificing himself for Sora.

And as a companion to KH2, that's also part of Days' job. It's meant to build upon the premise of the character of Roxas introduced in KH2. It's interesting how many people confuse that fact by redefining the story as if it strictly adheres to Xion's role, to the point that Roxas and Axel hardly enter the conversation.
Well it's because Xion is one of the biggest conundrums in the series, one that many find useless. As I said previously, people see Xion in the game and because of their feelings regarding her overall role, the rest of the game suffers immensely in their opinions. She tends to overshadow the rest of the game when people think about it.

I consider Aqua and Xion the two most tragic characters in Kingdom Hearts. Both have a strong concept of self-preservation which deters manipulation of their personalities and actions, yet both are forced to compromise that quality in order to realize a greater good at personal, drastic costs. But, as I've said, ultimately, Xion's tragedy is Roxas's tragedy; her death fuels the dissolution of his sense of self. As he comes to lose his memory of her, his understanding of who he is fails as well, because so much of his identity comes closely linked with what he knows about her.

Never apologize for rambling. It's the foremost privilege of those who think. ;]

I think another reason that he lost so much when she died is because through her taking his energy (even manifesting in a mission where his level is halved due to Xion's presence as his partner) he grew somewhat dependent on her. He lost a lot of himself to her draining presence (which was as the Organization wanted), and when she vanished those parts of himself vanished with her.

They're probably back once Roxas returned to Sora, but during the last day of Days, he is wounded by his loss. And that's probably another reason why he was so angry; not only had he lost Xion, but he'd also lost a large part of himself in the process.
 

Dogenzaka

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Xion was a necessary concept to the plothole of Sora/Kairi/Roxas' connection in the KH series, but it was executed horribly and she just made things more convoluted. At the very least, it tied things up by the end of the game.

I really hate how Nomura tries to stuff a planet-sized chunk of garbled information in a plot-hole the size of a needle poke. And he even changes his mind!

I mean at first he tried really hard to convince us that nobodies were supposed to look like their full persons. But then there was the inconsistency of some nobodies looking EXACTLY like their human counterparts, and some like Roxas/Namine looking quite different. But Nomura tried to convince you that Sora/Roxas and Kairi/Namine looked the same anyway, when in BBS he somehow became aware that Sora and Roxas look nothing alike and that it's all due to Ventus being involved.

He could take a question like "Why does Xion have black hair but kinda look like Kairi?" and make an entire damn game about it if he wanted. It's so stupid.
 

Wehrmacht

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how exactly did he ruin a conceptual video whose initial significance was extremely vague to begin with lol
 

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He stuffed Xion in there, when she was supposed to be gone. And she talks to them through the grave, and told Riku to stop Roxas from what she told him to do in the first place.

It was so epic before. Just Roxas vs Riku, with no other character involved or intervening.


I don't remember a Sora/Kairi/Roxas plothole.
 
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Bobby Craft

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I loved Deep Dive. My favorite part of the game next to the escape from the castle. I only feel bad that it was put into a game that on one liked lol.
 
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