- May 8, 2007
I think you might have missed my point.Organization members remember what it's like to be human. Therefore, they can be held as responsible as a human would when dealing with ordinary people because, lack of emotions or not, they still have the intellectual capacity to understand why it's wrong and they shouldn't be doing it.However, none of them ever had any experience with Nobodies until they were turned into Nobodies themselves. Therefore, they never would have had the opportunity to develop any ideas about what's "right" or "wrong" to do to a Nobody until it was effectively too late.If Axel had done the same thing to a real human that he did to Vexen, he'd definitely be evil. But, with Vexen himself, it's more hazy - after all, from what Axel's been told, Vexen is only "pretending" that he's petrified of dying.Axel's evil actions are, almost in their entirety, done towards other Nobodies. Since even Sora doesn't think much about killing Nobodies until Axel dies - he's picking fights with them in KH2 before he even sees them do anything - I think there's a limit on how much Axel's actions reflect on his actual character.
No, I don't think I did. You said the same thing I posted. Nobodies remember what it's like to be human. Therefore their basic concept of what is right and wrong is still there. They simply don't care since they don't have hearts. This does not excuse them from what they did. Just gives a reason for it. You seem to agree with me on that,but are still talking about Axel like this doesn't apply to him.You are still making excuses for him, but not the rest of the organization. It's hypocrisy, and even more damning when there's the fact that only Axel had a conscience, his humanity, when going to castle oblivion and even once inside.
That's not what I meant. What I meant was, you can't apply morality intended to deal with actions taken towards real people to actions taken towards Nobodies, because Nobodies differ in some significant ways.
He was using Sora as well. Who I do believe is human. Not to mention Kairi in Kh2. As for everybody else that he used and was selfish towards it's okay because their nobodies? I see. So the humanizing of Axel should stop then since he's just a nobody.
As for the Draco in Leather Pants claim - Axel was created with Leather Pants. He's supposed to be sympathetic, and the entire point of his character is lost if he's not. I like him just the way he is, misdeeds and all. I just don't think they're as unforgivable as you seem to think they are.
The entire organization gets leather pants like crazy even to the point that a lot of crazy people seem to think Sora is evil for taking them out. The only ones who truly deserve sympathy are Roxas,Xion, and Namine because they were being used, lied to, and manipulated even by Axel. Axel has known full well that he knows what he does is wrong, and still he did it. The others had no clue but when they did they left and tried to rectify.I see Axel like this. Mostly everything that happened to him he caused on himself and most, if not all, could have been avoided. I saw his death as karma coming for repayment.
Even if a person gets a second chance to do right that doesn't excuse the horrible things they did in the past,but that's what a majority of his fans seem to think. Give a guy bishie status, and a homoerotic relationship with a 15 year old boy( fan logic), and the fans go wild and forget everything. If you have ever heard of Final Fantasy I got one name to describe when draco and leather pantsing gets out of hand. Selphiroth.
Evil is an absolute term that should not, under normal circumstances, be applied to people, because they're too complicated for that. It's a term that's much more fair to apply to actions, because they're relatively simple.All you proved in your Riku example is that Riku did evil things. This does not make Riku an evil person, because there has always been more to Riku than that.Do you understand what I mean now?
Hmm,If someone murders,torture, and rapes they are not an evil person. They just did evil things. Despite that the person they murdered would still be dead, the person they raped and tortured would still be mentally scarred for the rest of their life, but it's okay because the murderer etc repented? The someone is only a evil person if they murder etc and enjoy it. Is that what you're saying?
Riku can destroy his whole world, try to kill his best-friend etc. Axel can kill sadistically his own comrades, oh I forgot you don't consider nobodies human-like if Axel does it, use children and other sentient beings for his own gains, and be extremely selfish. However, since they felt sorry in the end it's okay.
So basically no one but the devil himself would be evil to you? What about Hitler? Is he an evil person? Or was he just a good person who did evil things?
Good people do not deliberately do bad/heinous things. That's what makes them good in the first place. A good person wouldn't do something so deliberately evil and so genuinely selfish to even warrant repentance.That's why I don't see Riku or Axel as good people. They are anti-heros/poisonous friends.
By "Sora's benefit" I didn't mean "to make Sora happy" or anything like that. -_- What I meant was, Axel was putting on an act to draw out a reaction from Sora. From the Secret Reports, it seems that Axel would have preferred if he didn't have to kill Vexen, after all.
You say that like Axel was generally feeling remorse for what he did to Vexen. Which is ridiculous. He saw Vexen/ Zexion as more in the vain of (intentional) collateral damage. That is all.
He said "Riku-Replica was a tool." That doesn't sound like he thought of it as a person.
The day 195 report says explicitly that he indeed knew it had gained a sense of self. Basically he knew it was it's own person. He used it as a tool knowing that. It was only when he actually befriended a replica that he thought maybe using another sentient being like trash wasn't the right thing to do.
You're still turning their friendship into something destructive and wrong, though. The very existence of 358/2 Days is proof that Axel is supposed to be interpreted more charitably.Axel is, quite simply, the Nobody counterpart of KH2 Riku - they both represent the darker aspects of acting to protect something that one cannot bear losing, and they do a lot of the same things for the same reason. But that parallel is completely destroyed if you insist that Axel is acting on an ulterior motive.
Axel was a liar. Axel was selfish. He did have an ulterior motive for keeping Roxas. He cared about roxas true. I don't doubt that, but the underlying motive under that friendship was feeling like he had a heart, and he felt that because of Roxas. His drug to humanity was leaving, and Axel couldn't have that. So he would do anything to stop him and damn the consequences.
You don't get to do this.You don't get to say, on one hand, that Axel is bad for trying to take Roxas back against his will, and then say on the other that it's perfectly okay to force Roxas back into Sora against his will.The implications of what you're saying here are much larger than you seem to think. You're basically saying that Nobodies have no right to exist. Which inevitably leads to the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with killing them, since that means their Others can come back.Well, look at that. Axel was actually doing Vexen and Zexion a favor. -_-
Truthfully Roxas and Namine don't have a right to exist.More so then any of the other nobodies. For the simple fact that their Others are still walking around, and thus they are keeping their real selves from being complete. They are entirely different from the rest of the organization. The rest of them were their original selves just without hearts. The nobody process got screwed badly when Namine and Roxas were born. In truth Sora and Kairi were supposed to disappear when their hearts left their bodies, and be reborn as the beings Roxas and Namine. It didn't go like that so basically you have two Sora's and two Kairi's walking around. Sora would have never woken up without Roxas and Kairi would never be a whole without Namine. So of course I side with the humans on this. I do sympathize with Roxas since he wanted to exist as himself,and it was wrong of Diz and Riku to kidnap him and mess with his memories. However, they didn't force him into Sora. He went, if resignedly, into Sora himself. Do you remember the wake up sora he said after the looks like my summer vacation is over. He was like Xion. They both wanted to be their own people, but gave up themselves for the greater good.
Axel killing Vexen and Zexion is not the problem. It's the way he did it that is. It wasn't in self-defense at all. They were begging for their lives while he smiled as he killed them horribly. If he had fought them like he did Marluxia, as equals, then I wouldn't have batted an eye because it would have been a fair fight. With Vexen and Zexion that was not the case.
Then again, I don't need it. Roxas had everything he cared about replaced with lies, and was basically brainwashed into defending those lies. I really don't see how you can blame Axel for wanting to reverse that.
Axel was not trying to reverse that out of pity that his best friend was in a fake town with fake memories. He was doing it to drag him back to the organization, and to have his feel like a heart drug back with him. Nevermind that Sora would stay sleep forever if this had happened.
Axel started to apologize the first time at the Battle of Hollow Bastion, at which point he most certainly wasn't dying - and at which point he had nothing to gain by telling Sora he was sorry about Kairi.
Since you like the novels then in them Saix took Kairi away from Axel right after they left Twilight Town. So he could have been apologizing for that at Hollow Bastion then reiterated it fully in Betwixt and Between. That is not a stretch because Kairi was indeed not with him at HB.
He's likable, has a ton of character development, and clearly seems to have gained something that the rest of the Organization lacked. Unlike the other members, it's impossible to reduce him to simple absolutes without losing what makes him Axel.
That's another thing that bothers me about Axel. For example Xigbar and Xenmas are confirmed to be important to birth by sleep. Xenmas more so then anybody. Yet their character development is really, really, pathetic compared to Axel who is not important to the overall KH mythos. It's favoritism and whoring and thus bad story-telling.
However, if Axel is who I think he is,points to sig:lol:, then the constant whoring for three games would be justified.If not then its again bad storytelling. Putting favoritism ahead of a coherent plot is never a good thing.Also if the other members had even a bit near the character development of Axel then they to would be seen in a shade of gray more easily as well,but because of the Axel whoring that's impossible. Thus not fair to really blame them for their lack of sympathetic character development. Blame Nomura.