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Is Org XIII really THAT bad?



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Ж??ᾏ₦

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

It would depend... the idea sounds good but the actual intent is questionable
 

Neku's nobody

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Saiz is the one that surprised me the most. In KH2 I got the impression he was Xemnas' lap dog, but after Days he gave me a new impression.

Especially when he was tlaking to Axel about not knowing Xemnas' true goal, and what other things xemnas may not be telling them.
after days i saw him as more the victim that the true villain since he was just in it for getting his heart back but the way he treated Xion and roxas led me to think that he was just as evil as xemnas at first
 

Beyer

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

I don't like to think of them as evil because all they wanted was a heart and Sora is wrong to have destroyed them. However, I think certain members only lied about wanting a heart so that they could get KH for themselves.(Xemnas and maybe Marluxia and Larxene. Could really be anyone...)

I wonder, in recruitment did they mention that they were going to use KH? Because if the person that recruited certain member only said that they had "ways" or something then we would know that certain member is legit but we don;t see any of them join the organization so yea...

Off topic: My heart skipped a beat when I say TwilightNight's pic. It is THE perfect Roxas!!!!!!!
 

D∆NTE

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Organization members themselves may not all be bad. However, the purpose of the Organization is bad, whether or not most of the members even know the final purpose or not is another issue.

They weren't bad, they just wanted to be whole. they may have been deluded and somewhat evil. but not sinister
 

D∆NTE

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

they werent vicious with their ways but they werent right about it tryna take kingdom hearts

Yeah they kind got a little carried away. first all they wanted were hearts. then they said, "hold on, we could have the biggest thing, kingdom hearts".
 

Ikkin

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

I don't like to think of them as evil because all they wanted was a heart and Sora is wrong to have destroyed them.

Why does "Organization XIII is not truly evil" have to mean "Sora was wrong to kill them?" Sora only killed out of self-defense - and self-defense works as a justification regardless of where an enemy stands on the moral spectrum. (Think about it this way - if you're fighting in a war, and someone's shooting at you, does the fact that the other guy's probably a normal guy just like you make it wrong to shoot back?)


I wonder, in recruitment did they mention that they were going to use KH? Because if the person that recruited certain member only said that they had "ways" or something then we would know that certain member is legit but we don;t see any of them join the organization so yea...

Xemnas didn't tell Roxas up front, but it's hard to generalize from him. XD;

I doubt that he did, though, since he seems to avoid giving out any more information to the neophyte members than he absolutely has to. Plus, mentioning the Kingdom Hearts plan before they had a Keybearer to collect hearts for them wouldn't have been a very good idea.
 

baconbits

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Yes the Organization was evil. Everyone seems to sympathize for them because they had a couple good seeds within their ranks (Roxas, Xion....that's about it). And no, we can't say for sure if Axel was considered a "good guy" because who knows what he did in his past to become a Nobody, especially since he had ties to Saix.

I really don't think it's fair to judge Axel based on how he was as a somebody. I think, if anything, he is significantly different from his somebody especially since Roxas joined. You can't pin his somebody's actions on him

Xemnas and the other five members who established the Organization became Nobodies because they wanted to abandon the so-called "shackles of emotion" that a heart would carry.

So you are saying that the original members became nobodies because they wanted to, and they didn't want a heart? But that's stupid because why would they want to turn right back around and thrive to have hearts so much?

Definitely this.


It's a pretty opinionated question to ask if they were truly bad. To me, they weren't. Well, like blt said, mostly misguided by Xemnas. Not to mention, they probably didn't see their actions as evil, they couldn't feel guilt, if no one had emotions, no one would be able to judge what was right or wrong. Just saying.

One thing i thought in Days, was that even though they brought up often that none of them could feel, I often noticed the Organization making claims and statements that wouldn't be reasonable to make if one didn't have a heart (did I word that right? let me know if its confusing and I'll try again). On my second play-through of Days I'll find some specifics

Also, the more I think about it, it would be hard for the KH staff to make characters that "can't feel" and try to develop the plot for Days through them. Since they are real people with hearts making the game, they don't know what somebody without one would say exactly
 

UnstoppableSound

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

I really don't think it's fair to judge Axel based on how he was as a somebody. I think, if anything, he is significantly different from his somebody especially since Roxas joined. You can't pin his somebody's actions on him

That is true. Axel probably did change once he became a nobody. However, that's assumption once again, and since we don't know enough about his history, we can't assume he was better or worse before.


So you are saying that the original members became nobodies because they wanted to, and they didn't want a heart? But that's stupid because why would they want to turn right back around and thrive to have hearts so much?

That's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, that is what the game tells us. They intentionally were consumed by darkness so that they could escape the "shackles of the heart" that Saix mentions. However, once they did do so, they realized that there are some things you cannot do without a heart, and therefore sought a way to not only regain their hearts, but obtain the power of Kingdom Hearts (also mentioned in the game itself).
 

*TwilightNight*

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

That's exactly what I'm saying. In fact, that is what the game tells us. They intentionally were consumed by darkness so that they could escape the "shackles of the heart" that Saix mentions. However, once they did do so, they realized that there are some things you cannot do without a heart, and therefore sought a way to not only regain their hearts, but obtain the power of Kingdom Hearts (also mentioned in the game itself).

Those were only said for the Apprentices: the first six. Not everyone else. Nomura mentioned it, from what I can remember. The one who wrote it was Xaldin, I believe. And guess what he is? In the end, the report is still in his opinion. So what he thinks isn't exactly what the rest of his past colleagues would think before they all befell Darkness. All they have in common is that they chose the same path before knowing the consequences.
 

UnstoppableSound

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Those were only said for the Apprentices: the first six. Not everyone else. Nomura mentioned it, from what I can remember. The one who wrote it was Xaldin, I believe. And guess what he is? In the end, the report is still in his opinion. So what he thinks isn't exactly what the rest of his past colleagues would think before they all befell Darkness. All they have in common is that they chose the same path before knowing the consequences.

Yeah, it only applied to the first six, exactly.
 

Kiwise

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Innocent question, don't butcher me: When did the Org. ever turn anyone into a Heartless intentionally?
Don't say Beast. Besides him.
(Wasn't that Xaldin acting on his own, anyway?)

Seriously, people have been saying that since KH2, I guess I just never got the memo. When did that happen (besides with Beast)? I was under the impression Sora came up with that idea himself.
 

Neku's nobody

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

I dont think they actually went around the worlds doing what maleficent did. But they did realesse hearless into the worlds and expect roxas and sora to derstroy them.
 

jphantom

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

To a certain point of view they're bad but in their eyes of course they think they're good.
 

Ikkin

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Innocent question, don't butcher me: When did the Org. ever turn anyone into a Heartless intentionally?
Don't say Beast. Besides him.
(Wasn't that Xaldin acting on his own, anyway?)

Seriously, people have been saying that since KH2, I guess I just never got the memo. When did that happen (besides with Beast)? I was under the impression Sora came up with that idea himself.

It was strongly implied that the Organization was responsible for turning the dragon in The Land of Dragons into a Heartless.

There were a few cases, though, where Sora said that the Organization was trying to set Heartless on people, and there was never any proof of it. I'd say that, generally speaking, it's best to assume that the Organization's wrongdoings - apart from restraining the hearts comprising Kingdom Hearts - were of a more personal sort than the generalized evil that the Disney villains were involved in, and that Sora's belief otherwise was based on assumption rather than fact.
 

baconbits

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Reading these again, I really hope SE makes more importance out of the Organization and manages to wrap up the KH saga before I die (I mean, how many years has it been now? sheesh)
 

Kiwise

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

It was strongly implied that the Organization was responsible for turning the dragon in The Land of Dragons into a Heartless.

There were a few cases, though, where Sora said that the Organization was trying to set Heartless on people, and there was never any proof of it. I'd say that, generally speaking, it's best to assume that the Organization's wrongdoings - apart from restraining the hearts comprising Kingdom Hearts - were of a more personal sort than the generalized evil that the Disney villains were involved in, and that Sora's belief otherwise was based on assumption rather than fact.

That's right, I forgot about the dragon. When I first played the game, I was kind of more under the impression it had been there for a long time and they just went and woke it up, but I think I remember reading something that said they'd created it.

S'what I thought. Thanks.
 
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Heolstor

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Aren't they the ones who originally flooded the worlds with the heartless? I'd say that is pretty bad.
That might of been Maleficents crew...
Well I think they both did it at some point.
 
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