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Is Org XIII really THAT bad?



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destinykh

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

There were a few cases, though, where Sora said that the Organization was trying to set Heartless on people, and there was never any proof of it. I'd say that, generally speaking, it's best to assume that the Organization's wrongdoings - apart from restraining the hearts comprising Kingdom Hearts - were of a more personal sort than the generalized evil that the Disney villains were involved in, and that Sora's belief otherwise was based on assumption rather than fact.

The Heartless appearing even after Maleficent lost control of them in the Hollow Bastion War is proof enough. And the Storm Rider in Land of Dragons and the Grim Reaper in Port Royal is already as solid evidence as you can get that the Organization were setting Heartless on people in the hopes that Sora, being the hero that he is, will step in and defeat them. And sidenote, Luxord released Nobodies on Will's crew just because they were standing in his way and from the look of things, Will is the only one who is alive. So, Sora's belief is fact.
 

Lamentation

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

I don't really know if you can call them bad or not.
What they want isn't that bad. Everyone wants to be a somebody, right? They're all missing something important that they wanna regain. But the way they want to reach that goal, I think that's the bad thing. Although, I don't think they had another chose to make.

Sora is getting rid of the heartless too right? Isn't he also a bad guy then? I mean, the organisation are getting rid of them, but Sora is kinda helping them to.
 

destinykh

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

Although, I don't think they had another chose to make.

They could have find the Princesses of Heart, ask nicely to gather at their headquarters and promise them that they won't get hurt, which is truth as seen in KH1. Or they could have gathered up as much Heartless as they can find, put them all in once place where they can't hurt anyone, then ask Sora and co to kill them.

Sora is getting rid of the heartless too right? Isn't he also a bad guy then? I mean, the organisation are getting rid of them, but Sora is kinda helping them to.

Sora is what we call an unwitting pawn. He did not know that him killing Heartless is helping his enemy. Even then he has no choice because if he stops, the Heartless will hurt people.
 

Ikkin

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Re: Is Org XIII really that BAD?

The Heartless appearing even after Maleficent lost control of them in the Hollow Bastion War is proof enough. And the Storm Rider in Land of Dragons and the Grim Reaper in Port Royal is already as solid evidence as you can get that the Organization were setting Heartless on people in the hopes that Sora, being the hero that he is, will step in and defeat them. And sidenote, Luxord released Nobodies on Will's crew just because they were standing in his way and from the look of things, Will is the only one who is alive. So, Sora's belief is fact.

Well, that's not quite what I meant. Sora seemed to think that the Organization was trying to turn people into Heartless on a large scale by releasing Heartless into the worlds. But there was never any evidence of that - the Organization might have set a few boss Heartless on people, but their goal was always to force Sora to fight rather than to cause mass casualties.

I guess my point is, even when other people are around, it'd be more fair to say that the Organization is setting Heartless on Sora rather than that they're setting Heartless on entire worlds.

As for Luxord setting Nobodies on Will's crew, that doesn't really contradict my claim. I never said the Organization didn't do anything bad, after all - just that they acted on a much smaller scale than Sora thought. Attacking people in their way is still more personal than general, after all. Also, I doubt that Will's crew was actually killed - considering how the Dusks acted in the rest of the game when they brought someone down, the lesser Nobodies just seem more likely to restrain people who are in their way than kill them.


They could have find the Princesses of Heart, ask nicely to gather at their headquarters and promise them that they won't get hurt, which is truth as seen in KH1. Or they could have gathered up as much Heartless as they can find, put them all in once place where they can't hurt anyone, then ask Sora and co to kill them.

Neither of those seem all too likely to work, to be honest. Sora's certainly not going to let a part of Xehanort near the real Kingdom Hearts - and he's not going to go and kill Heartless for the Organization either, if he knew what was going to happen to those hearts.
 

Silver warrior

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Just thinkin alaud out here. if you think about it the goals for the organization werent that evil. Of course they did cuestionable stuff by turning people into heartless but if they just waited for Sora to finish kingdom hearts do you really think it would be worth stopping them?

xemnas was planing on turning people into heartless so he could finish kingdom hearts absorb it's powe and take over the universe,but like roxas said"the organisazion has his good apples and bad".
 

destinykh

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Well, that's not quite what I meant. Sora seemed to think that the Organization was trying to turn people into Heartless on a large scale by releasing Heartless into the worlds. But there was never any evidence of that - the Organization might have set a few boss Heartless on people, but their goal was always to force Sora to fight rather than to cause mass casualties.

I guess my point is, even when other people are around, it'd be more fair to say that the Organization is setting Heartless on Sora rather than that they're setting Heartless on entire worlds.

I agree with you there, but we have not much evidence to fully contradict Sora's claims. Luxord was experimenting on darkness of the heart, Xaldin with the Beast. So while they may not indulge in full scale massacre (which I never believed to be the case, people getting hurt is just an unfortunate consquence of releasing Heartless into the world for Sora to fight), behind the scenes they may have tried to turn people into Heartless since they're mission was to unlock the secrets of the heart. Of course, this is not confirmed, but Sora's claim isn't totally baseless.

As for Luxord setting Nobodies on Will's crew, that doesn't really contradict my claim. I never said the Organization didn't do anything bad, after all - just that they acted on a much smaller scale than Sora thought. Attacking people in their way is still more personal than general, after all. Also, I doubt that Will's crew was actually killed - considering how the Dusks acted in the rest of the game when they brought someone down, the lesser Nobodies just seem more likely to restrain people who are in their way than kill them.

Agreed, I never really believed the crew died, that just seemed to be a way to elevate tension.

Neither of those seem all too likely to work, to be honest. Sora's certainly not going to let a part of Xehanort near the real Kingdom Hearts - and he's not going to go and kill Heartless for the Organization either, if he knew what was going to happen to those hearts.

You do know I was joking right? XD
 

Ikkin

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I agree with you there, but we have not much evidence to fully contradict Sora's claims. Luxord was experimenting on darkness of the heart, Xaldin with the Beast. So while they may not indulge in full scale massacre (which I never believed to be the case, people getting hurt is just an unfortunate consquence of releasing Heartless into the world for Sora to fight), behind the scenes they may have tried to turn people into Heartless since they're mission was to unlock the secrets of the heart. Of course, this is not confirmed, but Sora's claim isn't totally baseless.

Oh, you definitely have a point there. Considering the amount of scientifically-minded individuals in the Organization and their near-complete lack of consciences, it'd be surprising if there weren't more nasty experiments going on in the shadows. I'm not totally convinced that the members who weren't personally involved in that would have even been aware of it, though.

On the other hand, I do think that there is one of Sora's claims that is pretty clearly intended to be wrong - the claim that the Organization will go where there are lots of people because they're after people's hearts. They do go where there are lots of people - but mostly because they know Sora can't avoid fighting Heartless if they're a threat.


You do know I was joking right? XD

Ah, okay, that makes sense. XD I guess I've just seen that proposed honestly too many times to be sure.
 

Kiwise

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Another question: was it ever specifically said what the Org. was going to do with the hearts? "Become whole" and whatever Xemnas was doing were all I ever got, but does that mean the hearts are used up and rendered useless or something? I'm trying to sort out what's cannon from what the fans have made up.
 

Moonlight Aqua

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All I can say is power comes with great responsiblity. And Xenmas and Saix took advantage of that power along with Marluxia... to control Kingdom hearts for power.

The worse thing is that there were good seeds in Org. XIII. But they were lied to until the very end. They were told that they can be somebody but really the superiors just wanted power to control the universe.

So its not that the WHOLE Org. XIII was evil, it was just seemed that way because who was the one in charge at that time. :)

Feel free to disagree... I'm just saying my opinion.
 

Chaos_Riku

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No, it's not wrong, but it can be assumed that there reasonings for it may not be the greatest. if they were just people trying to become whole and didn't do bad things in order to do it, it'd be a very different group. The Organization members do not feal remorse, (save possibly for Roxas and those directly connected and influenced by him, thats complicated) so they can in fact unleash heartless on Sora or people, and are willing to use Sora as a pawn just to get to the end they wish for, without any feelings of sadness or dislike for what they have done. It can be assumed that not all of the ORG members were completely evil, but at the end of the day they were all corrupted (save possibly Roxas once again) and performed dark tasks for an end to only save themselves.
 

fantasy08

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All I can say is power comes with great responsiblity. And Xenmas and Saix took advantage of that power along with Marluxia... to control Kingdom hearts for power.

Ahh This just irks me. Saix did not, nor did he ever, want Kingdom Hearts for power. He didn't want kingdom hearts at all. He just wanted his heart back.Marluxia did not want KH either. He just wanted the power of the keyblade, (NOT KH) so he could take over the org. Play Re:Com. Xenmas is the only one 100% confirmed to want Kingdom hearts power so he could rule the universe.

I know where this Saix wanted KH for power crap is coming from. This quote from days after roxas defeated him.

"Kingdom hearts will your strength never be mine."

He is saying it to the moon, which happens to be kingdom hearts, to boost his strength because he can't believe he lose to Roxas.

Saix Day 356: Unforeseen Events( The same day Roxas defeated him and left.)
When did Roxas grow strong enough to out-muscle me?

Don't forget the moon is where he gets his power from. Even Riku says this in kh2. "I can sense Saix. He is using something to boost his power."

Days entry in the opening.
No. VII Saix
Second in command who longs for the heart he does not have. Only the moon breaks his icy calm.

From Kh2 Saix
"Kingdom Hearts where is my heart?" Not Joe somebody's down the street's heart. His heart.
He truly wanted his heart back. Not godhood like Xenmas.

And if the battles in Kh2 didn't clue you in that the only one that wanted KH for a dark purpose a.k.a. godhood is and always was Xenmas.

No. I Xenmas
Organization XIII's leader. Through power over nothing, he seeks power over everything.

Now to show some semblance of being on topic lol. I'll just go with Namine's Kh2 explanation of the org.

"Good or bad I don't know. All I know is that they are a group of incomplete people who wish to be whole.
 

Neku's nobody

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Ahh This just irks me. Saix did not, nor did he ever, want Kingdom Hearts for power. He didn't want kingdom hearts at all. He just wanted his heart back.Marluxia did not want KH either. He just wanted the power of the keyblade, (NOT KH) so he could take over the org. Play Re:Com. Xenmas is the only one 100% confirmed to want Kingdom hearts power so he could rule the universe.

I know where this Saix wanted KH for power crap is coming from. This quote from days after roxas defeated him.

"Kingdom hearts will your strength never be mine."

He is saying it to the moon, which happens to be kingdom hearts, to boost his strength because he can't believe he lose to Roxas.

Saix Day 356: Unforeseen Events( The same day Roxas defeated him and left.)
When did Roxas grow strong enough to out-muscle me?

Don't forget the moon is where he gets his power from. Even Riku says this in kh2. "I can sense Saix. He is using something to boost his power."

Days entry in the opening.
No. VII Saix
Second in command who longs for the heart he does not have. Only the moon breaks his icy calm.

From Kh2 Saix
"Kingdom Hearts where is my heart?" Not Joe somebody's down the street's heart. His heart.
He truly wanted his heart back. Not godhood like Xenmas.

And if the battles in Kh2 didn't clue you in that the only one that wanted KH for a dark purpose a.k.a. godhood is and always was Xenmas.

No. I Xenmas
Organization XIII's leader. Through power over nothing, he seeks power over everything.

Now to show some semblance of being on topic lol. I'll just go with Namine's Kh2 explanation of the org.

"Good or bad I don't know. All I know is that they are a group of incomplete people who wish to be whole.
Thats what im saying, SAIX ISNT EVIL!
 

Lonbilly

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Even if Saix didn't want KH for power, he was still evil, whether only a bit or a lot. He didn't care that they were turning people into Heartless, using Xion and Roxas, etc. If he really wanted his heart, he was going about getting it selfishly and if that isn't even a tad bit evil, then I don't know what is.

The only ones who weren't truly evil were Xion and Roxas because they never knew the Organization was turning people into Heartless or that they were being used until the end.
 

Ikkin

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Even if Saix didn't want KH for power, he was still evil, whether only a bit or a lot. He didn't care that they were turning people into Heartless, using Xion and Roxas, etc. If he really wanted his heart, he was going about getting it selfishly and if that isn't even a tad bit evil, then I don't know what is.

The only ones who weren't truly evil were Xion and Roxas because they never knew the Organization was turning people into Heartless or that they were being used until the end.

"Evil" really is a strong word to apply so generally. I tend to think of it as a word intended to describe acts rather than people.

I'd be willing to call Saix evil, if only for the way he treated Xion and Roxas. But, for Axel and Demyx, I don't think they come anywhere close, even if they were more involved in the darker dealings than the Keyblade kids.
 

Kiwise

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Even if Saix didn't want KH for power, he was still evil, whether only a bit or a lot. He didn't care that they were turning people into Heartless, using Xion and Roxas, etc. If he really wanted his heart, he was going about getting it selfishly and if that isn't even a tad bit evil, then I don't know what is.

The only ones who weren't truly evil were Xion and Roxas because they never knew the Organization was turning people into Heartless or that they were being used until the end.

Why does there have to be this immovable black-and-white alignment here? Besides the fact that it's Disney and that's what we expect. Yeah, Saïx was an asshole. Yeah, he did a lot of bad stuff (yeah, that's probably an understatement). Yeah, he was selfish. Evil, though? Really? I think that's a little drastic. Also, how was he supposed to go about getting his heart back without being selfish, then? I mean, what other options do you think there were? No sarcasm, honestly asking.

Also, when did they turn people into Heartless? I wish people would quit saying that. Or at least, I wish they'd give an example.

Luxord and Demyx didn't seem to know that either. What did they do to make them evil? Come to think of it, what exactly did Xigbar, Zexion, Lexaeus, or Vexen do to forever cement them as "EVIILLLLL"?
 

Ikkin

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Also, when did they turn people into Heartless? I wish people would quit saying that. Or at least, I wish they'd give an example.

Xaldin was trying to turn Beast into a Heartless, but didn't succeed (obviously). That could have been something Xaldin decided to do for himself, though, considering the fact that Roxas got sent after him when he didn't RTC on time.

Xigbar turned a dragon from The Land of Dragons into a Heartless, so that Sora would have to fight it. Another Organization member (identity unknown) intended to turn Jafar into a Heartless for the same purpose, but never seemed to have actually gotten around to Heartlessifying him before Sora took him out.


Luxord and Demyx didn't seem to know that either. What did they do to make them evil? Come to think of it, what exactly did Xigbar, Zexion, Lexaeus, or Vexen do to forever cement them as "EVIILLLLL"?

Xigbar, Zexion, Lexaeus, and Vexen are actually some of the easiest to classify as evil, since they were involved in Xehanort's terrible experiments even before they lost their hearts. The first six had definitely turned people into Heartless intentionally, out of intellectual curiosity.

Zexion's list of crimes includes attempting to drive Riku to despair to make him easier to kill, which is pretty heinous.

Vexen's got some extra acts of evil, too, since he's the one who remains the most involved in direct experimentation (with dissection being mentioned as one of the things he likes doing). Just think for a moment about what it would take to dissect a Heartless or Nobody without it fading away. >_>
 

Jorg

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As you said, some of the members wanted a heart so they aren't really that bad. The way they did it was sure wrong, but that's because of Xemnas, who was the leader and the one that said to all the other members what to do.
 

Guilded.Raven

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After playing days, Fantasy08, I have to agree with you. Saix didn't want power or another heart. He wanted his.

to have another chance at the life that was taken from him.

And what's all this about them giving in to the darkness?! Who's to say that there aren't other ways to become a nobody?! the Organization as a whole was not evil: Xemnas was. He was a manipulative tyrant who wanted power, always has, and if he actually had another chance with a heart, alway would!

Axel was NOT evil! How could someone give up their life, SACRIFICE THEMSELVES FOR SOMEONE ELSE LIKE THE WAY HE DID AND BE EVIL?! Sure, he went about things wrong, but didn't they all?! IS IT SO WRONG THAT THEY WANTED TO BE WHOLE?!
 
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