Why do you think Roxas, Xion and Namine should return?

[VoidGear.]

So I guess you're going to ignore all of Namine's other connections to people like Kairi, Riku, Diz etc and ignore 358/2 Days literally forcing Xion's connections to her friends Roxas and Axel down our throats?

But sure it was all about Sora 100%

I don't even like Xion at all but even I find that kinda insulting to her character or what you can call a character.

But again, agree to disagree. We're clearly not going to see eye to eye on this and I've gotta go soon anyways so yeah.

Just because Naminé interacted with characters like Kairi and Riku for like five minutes each (okay, well, a little more as for Riku, but still) doesn't equal to the impact she has on Sora. Her doing made people forget that he even existed and she had been held a prisoner in the castle for nothing but her witch powers. How much do we really know about her besides the fact that she likes drawing pictures and can manipulate Sora and the people who are close to him?

And just because people eat some ice cream and appear to be friends doesn't change the fact that most of Days' story comes from Xion realizing she inhabits memories that aren't hers because she's "merely a puppet" that shouldn't exist and needs to go back to where she thinks she belongs - Sora.

 

[MrFranklin95]

There hasn't been more than 2-3 responses that I've seen here that aren't some variation of "they deserve it after all the crap that's happened to them" or "Sora wouldn't just leave them behind". Which essentially chalks up to the same thing -- "we want a happy ending".

Just because only one game in the series has had a happy ending, doesn't mean that we still have a need for one. We don't need to fill some sort of quota. In the end it's all up to opinion so I won't continue to argue against it, but I personally believe that never giving a definitely "happy" ending to most of the games despite being a "cutesy" Disney story about friendship is precisely what makes Kingdom Hearts's story so good.

Sooooo... you basically want no happy endings at all? That doesn't sounds like a compelling reason either. And yes, people have given plenty.

1. They are in a completely different position then anyone being brought back to life. Being stuck inside someone's soul doesn't sound like a compelling definitive ending to a character, even if your trying to be accepting and bittersweet about it. Maybe to you it does but to me, I expect that character to reprise at some point. Besides, leaving them gone without Sora ever knowing about them (besides Axel and Roxas) at all and what they did so that he could stay himself would be weird.

2. I don't see how "sora wouldn't leave them behind" doesn't make sense? That's Sora's character in a nutshell. It makes sense for him to try everything to bring them back, especially if they're in there mainly because of him. Re:coded was 90% of that.

3. I mean, why can't this ending be happy? We don't get those in this series to be honest. And honestly, how do you except this game to end? All grim and somber? Having this game have a bittersweet ending like the rest, especially for the end of the saga, would be jarring as hell and pointless given everything that's happen prior.

4. Again, having someone stay gone for the sake of making a narrative seem more compelling isn't if that not organic for the story going forward. Maybe having the characters come back is just how the story is suppose to go. It's not like they haven't hinted at it at all. And I see no reason why it couldn't add something for the series going forward, especially with these characters we only saw in one game. And just because they can bring a character back doesn't take away anything from their sacrifices at all and it also doesn't mean anyone can be brought because these characters are in a totally different situation then simply "bringing someone back from the dead"

Why would they? I'd say, why not? All depends on the writing.

 

[reimeille]

Sooooo... you basically want no happy endings at all? That doesn't sounds like a compelling reason either. And yes, people have given plenty.

1. They are in a completely different position then anyone being brought back to life. Being stuck inside someone's soul doesn't sound like a compelling definitive ending to a character, even if your trying to be accepting and bittersweet about it. Maybe to you it does but to me, I expect that character to reprise at some point.

2. I don't see how "sora wouldn't leave them behind" doesn't make sense? That's Sora's character in a nutshell. It makes sense for him to try everything to bring them back, especially if they're in there mainly because of him.

3. I mean, why can't this ending be happy? I mean, to be honest, how do you except this game to end? All grim and somber. Having this game have a bittersweet ending like the rest, especially for the end of the saga, would be jarring as hell and pointless.

4. Again, having someone stay gone for the sake of making a narrative seem more compelling isn't if that not organic for the story going forward. Maybe having the characters come back is just how the story is suppose to go. It's like they haven't hinted at it. And just because they can bring a character back doesn't take away anything from their sacrifices at all. Why would they? I'd say, why not? All depends on the writing.

Not wanting the same kind of "happy ending" for these particular 3 characters does not mean I don't want a happy ending at all. There are many storylines I hope to see end 'perfectly'; For instance I want Terra, Aqua, and Ventus to reunite and happily return to the reformed Land of Departure together. I just don't like the concept of absolutely everything that happened being rectified in the end. In my personal opinion, I think some plotlines should take a less positive ending, and I have chosen the nobodies+Xion to be it. That's just my ideal ending.

And again, I never said anyone's arguments "don't make sense". It's valid as an opinion -- I just don't hold the same one.

You're telling me that "no this is not actually that compelling" or "no this is actually valid" as if any of it matters. The thing you have to remember here is that there is no fact in the end. Remember the titled of this thread is "Why do you THINK" they should return. Not "give me a definitive response on why these characters will return".

 

[MrFranklin95]

You're telling me that "no this is not actually that compelling" or "no this is actually valid" as if any of it matters. The thing you have to remember here is that there is no fact in the end. Remember the titled of this thread is "Why do you THINK" they should return. Not "give me a definitive response on why these characters will return".

...I thought that's what we were doing lol. I'm just telling you my viewpoint. Sorry if I came across as trying to portray it as fact. That's just how I see things in this story. As I said before, I think both sides have good reasons, I just tend to lean more to the side of bring them back because of how this story has been told so far, that makes sense to me. Not trying to diminish your opinion or anything. More or less just trying to understand your viewpoint and then displaying mine.

All I'm saying is that (and this isn't to you, this is in general) you can't dismiss other opinions and pick and choose and say, "they only want it for fanservice" and then turn around say, "but what I want is correct and makes sense and anyone who disagrees is a fanboy and doesn't care about the story" Maybe that's not what was meant but that's how it mostly came across

 

[Xblade13]

May I butt in for a sec? I just want to ask why having a Happy ending would be a bad thing? I think if you look at human society, the reason we have stories with so many happy endings is because life is so crappy for everybody outside of stories. A lot of people hate the idea that anyone is truly fine with "dealing with it" and accepting their station in life.

I'm not saying that is 100% right, but it gives a reason for the amount of happy cuddly endings in media, and why people enjoy them even if they aren't "different".

That's all I have to say on that I'm tired of all the arguing. In the world.

 

[MrFranklin95]

That's all I have to say on that I'm tired of all the arguing. In the world.

Aren't we all, my friend?

This thread: Kingdom Hearts: Civil War! -- WHAT SIDE ARE YOU ON!? #bringthemback #staydeadforgood

 

[KeybladeLordSora]

Steve: Bring them back.

Tony: They should stay dead.

CAPTAIN AMERICA:CIVIL WAR

 

[Audo]

I don't even understand this whole "there are too many happy endings" in media. Like, lately, the majority of stories opt for unhappy endings, and people act like unhappy endings are somehow more legitimate than happy ones, and KH in particular, again, has had a single truly happy ending in its entire series. Like, if KH3 has a happy ending, it's been earned at this point lol.

(And none of this is without saying that is is far easier for someone to write unhappy endings than it is satisfying happy ones. It's pretty gosh darn easy to invoke tragedy.)

“like tbh i feel like my problem with the “dark and gritty!!” trend in modern stories is this
there’s this idea in our culture that cynicism is realistic? that only children believe in happy endings, that people are ultimately selfish and greedy and seeing with clear eyes means seeing the world as an awful place
that idealism is— easy, i guess. butterflies and sunshine and love are easy things to have in your head.
but i’ve known since i was fifteen that idealism— faith in humanity— optimism— is the most difficult thing in the entire world.
i constantly struggle to have faith in humanity, because it’s really, really easy to lose it. it’s easy to look at the news and go “what were you expecting? of course humans behave this way.” it’s easy to see the world and go “ugh, there’s no hope there.” and the years when i believed that were easy. miserable— but easy.
it is hard work to see the good in people. it is hard work to hope. it is hard work to keep faith and love and joy and appreciation for beauty in my daily life.
and when moviemakers and tv producers and writers go “omg!!! all characters are selfish and act poorly and don’t love each other, nothing ever happens that is happy or good, that’s so much more realistic, that’s so much more adult”
no, it’s not
it’s childish.
it’s the most childish thing i can imagine.”

 

[reimeille]

May I butt in for a sec? I just want to ask why having a Happy ending would be a bad thing? I think if you look at human society, the reason we have stories with so many happy endings is because life is so crappy for everybody outside of stories. A lot of people hate the idea that anyone is truly fine with "dealing with it" and accepting their station in life.

I'm not saying that is 100% right, but it gives a reason for the amount of happy cuddly endings in media, and why people enjoy them even if they aren't "different".

That's all I have to say on that I'm tired of all the arguing. In the world.

Well, not everyone likes stories because they want fufillment in comparison to their real life, I guess. I like stories to be interesting; crazy twists, people to die that you never expected to, and stories where justice isn't always served, even if (and sometimes especially if) it makes me angry. I like stories that I'll remember for years to come because of how unique they were. There's hardly a story I recall often that had a fully positive ending to it. It's for that same reason that people are more likely to recall a character's death than a happy ending where someone got the girl. Or why stories where you never know who will die next have gotten so popular (i.e. The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones).

I'd also like to take a second to mention that Roxas and Namine have actually been my favorite characters since like, elementary school. Hell, I've even got a Roxas tattoo planned at the end of the year. If I thought it genuinely made more sense for them to have a happy ending, I'd have said so. But my interest in having a unique and bittersweet story and ending trumps that

 

[BlackOsprey]

Well, not everyone likes stories because they want fufillment in comparison to their real life, I guess. I like stories to be interesting; crazy twists and people to die that you never expected to, stuff like that. I like stories that I'll remember for years to come because of how unique they were. There's hardly a story I recall often that had a fully positive ending to it. It's for that same reason that people are more likely to recall a character's death than a happy ending where someone got the girl. Or why stories where you never know who will die next have gotten so popular (i.e. The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones).

Yeah, but... Really. Kingdom Hearts, as dark as it may be, isn't that kind of "grim and gritty" story that GoT or WD are. In fact, if I recall correctly, WD has largely lost the "anyone can die" quality that you mentioned. It's not a story that stomps your face into harsh reality, because... uh, look at it, it's a Disney-Square JRPG.

Anyhow, from what I've gathered, Nomura is saying the ending will be a happy one this time around, so no matter our differences in opinion and preference, I think we can rule out another bittersweet/depressing ending.

 

[reimeille]

Yeah, but... Really. Kingdom Hearts, as dark as it may be, isn't that kind of "grim and gritty" story that GoT or WD are. In fact, if I recall correctly, WD has largely lost the "anyone can die" quality that you mentioned. It's not a story that stomps your face into harsh reality, because... uh, look at it, it's a Disney-Square JRPG.

But even the numerous people here who disagree with me have admitted that Kingdom Hearts has never had a truly happy ending except in KH2. So I don't see what exactly you're getting at????

Anyhow, from what I've gathered, Nomura is saying the ending will be a happy one this time around, so no matter our differences in opinion and preference, I think we can rule out another bittersweet/depressing ending.

And again, this thread is called "why do you think" not "what is going to happen". I'm just stating what I personally am interested in seeing and why, not why I think it's actually going to happen.

 

[BlackOsprey]

ack, double post.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

On a side note, I'd like to point out that this thread serves almost as a direct foil to the thread "Which character interactions are you most excited to see in KHIII?" as that one clearly gives some interesting insights on some reasons why some want to see those characters again simply for the possible interactions they could have with other characters not even digging into deeper things like possible interesting future story arcs for them.

One obvious thing is though that the tenure of these characters was rather shorthanded and, just like the BBS crew, they were somewhat underused and hampered by some questionable writing along the way so there is potential to turn them into something better and flesh them out further, which obviously can't happen if they do not return in some capacity.

Then there has also to be called back into mind that even before the "big reveal" of BBS things were left ambigious to some degree and those parts of the fandom who theorized that Roxas and Naminé are their own persons and may have hearts of the own (or something similar to it) already existed even back then.
There were foundations for such theories to be made, theories that got merely reinforced and eventually confirmed over the course of BBS/Days, Re: Coded and Dream Drop Distance and when people say there are "rules broken" I dare them to state which ones as there was never any confirmation made on that the things revealed in BBS and further down aren't possible.
It was left ambigious and people gave different interpretations to the whole issue of which one was eventually turned canon.

In the light of the above I must say I find statements like this

Before BBS threw in that dumb "birth by sleep concept" and Coded/DDD continued on that, you couldn't picture these guys coming back. Recompletion was hinted on in the KH2 FM ultimania iirc but that was only for the return of fan favorites like Axel and other former Organization members along with the return of Xehanort. Even that particular concept held no favors for Roxas, Namine and Xion to return until the "birth by sleep" concept got tacked on later.

just as patronizing and generalizing as the "they dislike the characters"-statement as people could and DID picture "these guys" coming back even back in 2006/2007, the only difference being that it were only theories and interpretations just like the "they can't"-party had as well.
The story and narrative was ambigious enough to allow both and BBS and the following merely proved some of these interpretations and theories right.
That "dumb" Birth by Sleep concept had actually been already in action more or less during Chain of Memories and KH 2 as well, just not named and less obvious.

You're literally restating my point?? Lea is Axel's second chance, just as Sora is Roxas/Xion's and Kairi is Namine's.

Except that this isn't true in the slightest due to the circumstances being completely different? Axel had all of Lea's memories and thus was more or less a continuation of "Lea" (he even states that he was much the same guy as before) while Roxas, Xion and Naminé all started blank and thus developed into distinct individuals independent from Sora and Kairi and co-existed with them.

I don't mean to toot my own horn(I'll do it anyway) but I thought I gave a very compelling argument as to why they need a second chance. Here I'll simplify it: They were abused, pushed into a corner with no way out. These characters are way more than their deaths, they're people who were never given a chance to be anything but a tragedy.

And that's why people want a happy ending, to see the victims rise again and smile.

I really dig that explanation. They are more than their "deaths" indeed and they can be even more if they're just given the chance to, but Audo already explained that one so I won't repeat it here.

 

[BlackOsprey]

But even the numerous people here who disagree with me have admitted that Kingdom Hearts has never had a truly happy ending except in KH2. So I don't see what exactly you're getting at????

Just simply having a bittersweet ending isn't the same thing as taking on the tone and characteristics of a GoT-like story. That sort of thing doesn't just define how a game ends; it characterizes the entire story itself, how characters are treated and handled, usually with a heavy dose of wanton violence and grimdark cynicism.

Furthermore, the difference here is that, unlike those dark 'n gritty shows, a bittersweet ending on KH's part doesn't mean the end for that character. There's still hope. They can be saved, if someone reaches out and helps them.

And again, this thread is called "why do you think" not "what is going to happen". I'm just stating what I personally am interested in seeing and why, not why I think it's actually going to happen.

Alright. I think they'll be saved because [insert reasons that I and a lot of others have already mentioned in this thread]. Also, because the creator of the game is implying it by setting the idea up in past games (DDD and Blank Points) and then stating that KH3 will have a happy ending.

 

[reimeille]

Except that this isn't true in the slightest due to the circumstances being completely different? Axel had all of Lea's memories and thus was more or less a continuation of "Lea" (he even states that he was much the same guy as before) while Roxas, Xion and Naminé all started blank and thus developed into distinct individuals independent from Sora and Kairi and co-existed with them.

The circumstances are different, but what I'm getting at is the same thing. Perhaps I should've worded it differently, but I assumed people got what I meant.

They don't need to be separate individuals in order for their stories to be resolved and for them to find relative happiness. Yes, Lea is different from the other two groups and is more of a lucky case, but that's exactly what I mean by a "bittersweet" story and all of that junk I've probably repeated about 4 times by now.

(If that's still not clear just let me know, it's hard for me to word things in a way for others to understand.)

Just simply having a bittersweet ending isn't the same thing as taking on the tone and characteristics of a GoT-like story. That sort of thing doesn't just define how a game ends; it characterizes the entire story itself, how characters are treated and handled, usually with a heavy dose of wanton violence and grimdark cynicism.

Furthermore, the difference here is that, unlike those dark 'n gritty shows, a bittersweet ending on KH's part doesn't mean the end for that character. There's still hope. They can be saved, if someone reaches out and helps them.

I think you misread what I wrote. I was not comparing Kingdom Hearts to Game of Thrones or the Walking Dead. I was just using it as an example to explain that some people take more interest in less-predictable stories.

 

[BlackOsprey]

I think you misread what I wrote. I was not comparing Kingdom Hearts to Game of Thrones or the Walking Dead. I was just using it as an example to explain that some people take more interest in less-predictable stories.

Eh, then I wouldn't be too worried. The one thing that the KH storyline has never been is "predictable."
It's nice to sometimes have a story that just does a roundabout and crushes your heart, but... WHOOHOO SUBJECTIVE PERSONAL PREFERENCE TIMEEEEE

 

[MrFranklin95]

I think you misread what I wrote. I was not comparing Kingdom Hearts to Game of Thrones or the Walking Dead. I was just using it as an example to explain that some people take more interest in less-predictable stories.

But why would simply bringing a character back to life or having a happy ending in a series that's been building up to one make things predictable? I think it all depends on circumstances, the world the story is set in, and how the story is being told from that.

And sometimes being unpredictable makes things predictable and vice versa. Game of Thrones and Walking Dead have gone through that same things and still are.

 

[reimeille]

But why would simply bringing a character back to life make things predictable? It all depends on circumstances and how the story is being told. Sometimes being unpredictable makes it more predictable and vice versa. Game of Thrones and Walking Dead have gone through that same things and still are.

Well, what's predictable is usually subjective. For me, it's because too many stories, especially Disney stories, pull the "pretend someone is dead but pull them back at the last minute" thing. It's why I could never feel much for Xion's "death" (until I considered the possibility that maybe she wouldn't come back). Immediately while watching her fade away, I assumed that she wouldn't actually be down for long. So in my head, that became the "obvious and predictable" route.

Her not coming back would be the more unique route in my eyes because I just spent the last 5+ years surrounded by fellow fans who assured me (and continue to assure me) that she'd be coming back "soon".

 

[MrFranklin95]

Well, what's predictable is usually subjective. For me, it's because too many stories, especially Disney stories, pull the "pretend someone is dead but pull them back at the last minute" thing. It's why I could never feel much for Xion's "death" (until I considered the possibility that maybe she wouldn't come back). Immediately while watching her fade away, I assumed that she wouldn't actually be down for long. So in my head, that became the "obvious and predictable" route.

Her not coming back would be the more unique route in my eyes because I just spent the last 5+ years surrounded by fellow fans who assured me (and continue to assure me) that she'd be coming back "soon".

That's understandable. Granted, something like this has always been in the series from the very beginning. That's why I see the difference here but I agree. In Tangled, a movie I love and is better then Frozen in every way (my opinion though), one of the main characters dies and comes back to life in a way that felt like a Cop out. But its Disney so everyone let it slide. But in KH, characters having their own hearts and possibly being brought back has been hinted in this series for a long time. I always felt like that was the plan from the beginning.

Not to say them not coming back wouldn't being strongly compelling as well, I just think that having them come back for a second chance for new stories to be told would be stronger. The way they went out felt more like sacrifices with a slight hope of a new life in the future then deaths. But as you said, it's all subjective in the end. Either way, the writers will do what they want and hopefully they'll cook up something that'll please everyone... I doubt it. Can't please everyone lol

EDIT: Just to say this, wasn't Sora in KH1 technically brought back to life by Kairi? Does that count? lol

 

[Sephiroth0812]

The circumstances are different, but what I'm getting at is the same thing. Perhaps I should've worded it differently, but I assumed people got what I meant.

They don't need to be separate individuals in order for their stories to be resolved and for them to find relative happiness. Yes, Lea is different from the other two groups and is more of a lucky case, but that's exactly what I mean by a "bittersweet" story and all of that junk I've probably repeated about 4 times by now.

(If that's still not clear just let me know, it's hard for me to word things in a way for others to understand.)

It seems that on that point at least we two are on completely different basic points of expectations as I do not see much merit in their stories "getting resolved" and thus do not even want that. There is still much potential what could be done with these characters, especially due to their rather unorthodox way of "birth" and origin.
Just like for the BBS crew there is the possibility of potentially interesting new story/character arcs.

The whole Kingdom Hearts series has written "bittersweet" story all over it in many places of the saga and under the surface of preppy, colorful Disney paint actually addresses very heavy and partly dark themes all the same, the main difference to "true" cynical works and grimdark settings being that it is less graphic and gory.
Even Nomura himself acknowledges that the series so far never had a true happy ending at all with only KH 2 coming close, there was always some catch and this is something that does not sit well with quite some parts of the fandom, "Darkness-induced Audience Apathy" is the trope in question I think.