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Final Fantasy XVI



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Ballad of Caius

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FINAL FANTASY hasn't become stale. Its sales figures speak for themselves. And Square Enix has always been a company focused on innovation and every game we've gotten after FFX has had a sort of evolution of the game's gameplay. FF's I-III had standard turn-based; FF's IV-XII had ATB; FFXIII had its own evolution of ATB and so did its sequels; FFXV got more into the Action side; FFV7R has its own evolution of ATB.

Also, sometimes you need to address industry trends. Open world and action were a trend, so they decided to implement that on FFXV. But after FF15, SE decided to take a more... careful course of action with the FF7 Remake (Especially since it's the remake of an ATB game)
 

Rydgea

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Any time anyone brings up sales figures, trends, marketing, and other industry jargon as if they were pitching a proof of concept to a bunch of board directors for greenlighting a project, I think how cynical and unfun GAMING can be.
 

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Agreed, Final Fantasy itself isn’t stale. It’s only stale when:
  • A whole story requires sequels, prequels, all sorts of -quels, not to mention the novelizations, movies, manga, anime, who knows what else, instead of being told coherently in one game.
  • You can’t get that damn engine to work!
  • Collaborations with real-life brands that look stupid.
  • “Jiggle physics” become a thing…
 

BadgerBC

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I think the graphics look just fine for this stage of development. We shouldn’t forget how much FFVIIR and KH3 improved graphically in their last year of production. The only thing that was particularly jarring for me was the barren wasteland behind Shiva. It’s such an epic moment between these two godlike beings, but the bland environment just sucks the life out of the scene for me. I hope they add more to it for the final product.
Having a lake and forest in the background would add a lot. First thing we've seen though, so I'm sure it will look much better by the time it's finished.
 

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Wanted to make note that Joshua and the MC have the same earring. I wonder if that might connect them to each other or if it is just a physical representation of the MC being Joshua's shield.

MC still wears the earring even when he is older.
After rewatching the trailer I noticed this as well. Dunno if it is an earring or "just" a clip, but them having the exact same piece does stand out somewhat considering the setting.
A servant wearing the same jewelry as the member of a royal family they're serving is unusual, but I agree with the theories that it maybe is indeed a magical means of communication/connection between Joshua and the black haired MC.
In both cases it could help the black haired MC track down/find Joshua for example if the enemy forces capturing him-scenario turns out to be a thing.
Another idea that just jumped into my head is that perhaps we have a situation at hand like in TWEWY with Shiki/Eri in that the older Back haired MC has to deal with his younger self also running around but that younger self is actually Joshua just looking like him when he was younger.

If it is just symbolism/representation of their relationship though it is poignant that the black haired MC continues to wear it when he's older despite him apparently utterly failing at his job.
 

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I’m not the one saying FF got stale, Square Enix was. Why do you think they’ve refused to release a mainline turn-based FF after 10? They think turn-based combat is archaic, stale. That if they make one now, people will lose interest and sales will tank. You guys keep bringing up sales figures as if that disproves my argument when if anything, it ratifies it. After 10 they waved goodbye to classic FF gameplay and it paid off. In their eyes, nobody cares about turn-based combat anymore. If they did these new FFs wouldn’t sell. SE was proven right. Some of you guys are getting way too hung up on my stale comment.

If I was a fan of a series that’s gotten to that point, I’d want them to stop and make something new. FF has the benefit of already having tons of spin-offs so making more of those instead would’ve still left the possibility of another classic numbered game in the future. New fans can enjoy those new games and old fans don’t have to watch the mainline games turn into something different.

Final Fantasy II plays COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to I and was and still is heavily criticized to this day because of that, heavily looked down as a "bad sequel" to I.
III is a return to formula expanding on everything the first game did, but bringing more to the table like the Summons.
IV takes a lot of what worked on III but expands heavily on the story and reworks the playable characters entirely, re-introducing story party members.
V changed the gameplay yet again bringing back the class system from III and reworking it entirely but keeping the story-based characters from V.
VI plays entirely different yet again, bringing back classes assigned to characters but expanding on this further with each individual character having a unique gameplay mechanic like Edgar's tools or Sabin's combos.
VII is, well, VII.
VIII once again featured a vastly different system with the GF system, the card game, the Draw/Magic system, etc.

I could go on.

So no, each FF game doesn't work like a sequel to each other, each game is a reboot keeping the essential themes of Crystals, Summoned monsters, Man vs Nature and/or God, as well as the iconic classes and monsters like Dragoons or Chocobos.
“Expands on the previous game”
“Brings back a an old mechanic and improves it”
“Adds new mechanics”

Like I said, pretty standard sequel stuff. They’re all still turn-based strategies. That’s what classic fans want. Not individual mechanics from a specific game. Those themes are in every single FF ever, not just the mainline ones.
 

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I’m not the one saying FF got stale, Square Enix was. Why do you think they’ve refused to release a mainline turn-based FF after 10? They think turn-based combat is archaic, stale. That if they make one now, people will lose interest and sales will tank. You guys keep bringing up sales figures as if that disproves my argument when if anything, it ratifies it. After 10 they waved goodbye to classic FF gameplay and it paid off. In their eyes, nobody cares about turn-based combat anymore. If they did these new FFs wouldn’t sell. SE was proven right. Some of you guys are getting way too hung up on my stale comment.

If I was a fan of a series that’s gotten to that point, I’d want them to stop and make something new. FF has the benefit of already having tons of spin-offs so making more of those instead would’ve still left the possibility of another classic numbered game in the future. New fans can enjoy those new games and old fans don’t have to watch the mainline games turn into something different.


“Expands on the previous game”
“Brings back a an old mechanic and improves it”
“Adds new mechanics”

Like I said, pretty standard sequel stuff. They’re all still turn-based strategies. That’s what classic fans want. Not individual mechanics from a specific game. Those themes are in every single FF ever, not just the mainline ones.
.. Just because a game is turn-based that doesn't mean it plays the same, though? lol. A standart sequel would be a game built directly on top of the previous one, and the only FF that is remotely like that is 3 to 1, and even then that's a bit of a stretch.

No single FF game is like the other. There is a familiarity because of the similar elements, definitely, but all of them are different experiences, not only story-wise but they literally PLAY different from one another.

It's not like The Legend of Zelda where, although each game has a central gimmick atributed to it, they all follow the same pattern and general gameplay. You could easily take the "Final Fantasy [number]" away from all numbered titles and release each of them as individual games.

The only reason I don't agree with your stale coment is that it implies it was done purely to follow a trent, instead of the developers wanting to experiment with different things. It was done slowly with different games trying different approaches on bringing more action to turn combat starting from XII, and like someone else in this thread pointed out, part of the reason XV is the way it is was because it was originally a spin off game belonging to the Fabula Nova Crystalis compilation, and then turned into a main entry for numerous reasons.

XV wasn't built from the ground as a new entry in the main series, it was adapted from Versus for numerous reasons.

It's not like I ignore development patterns, company work and stuff. But FF clearly has not gone through what, say, Resident Evil went through where the games started to mutate (pun not intended) wildly to fit the industry for numerous reasons.

This will be my last post on this, though, as I think it started to go off topic and there's no point in arguing further if you have made your opinion on the matter.
 

Ballad of Caius

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My point here is that, personally, Square doesn't think the series' has gotten stale. They just do what they think is right in terms of each FINAL FANTASY entry being its own thing, but at the same time, observe and evaluate whether or not they implement industry trends on their upcoming projects.

And yes, it sucks that business decisions have to be considered in artistic creations such as video games, but if the general consumer wants something and you ignore it, then well, it can pretty much cost ya.
 

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If we don't even view them as artistic projects though (which I think they can be) and only see them as games, the issue doesn't just lie with companies making games that adhere strictly to the contemporary, but consumers not even having enough imagination to try something, just because they think it doesn't look or act like what they are accustomed to. Both perspectives are off.

There are many for or against turn-based or action-based, and frankly it's all moot if the final product is an enjoyable game. We don't need to write off old mechanics, just as we should embrace the experimentation. Old =/= bad. And new =/= good. Trends, sales, polls =/= fun.
 
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Oracle Spockanort

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I think we can acknowledge both the artistic/creative side of games as well as the business side. SE is a business first, but they also strive to deliver fun and entertaining games. We cannot split the two as they both serve a purpose in the creation of these games.
 

Ballad of Caius

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I think we can acknowledge both the artistic/creative side of games as well as the business side. SE is a business first, but they also strive to deliver fun and entertaining games. We cannot split the two as they both serve a purpose in the creation of these games.
Correct. What they can do is try and find a balance.
 

Rydgea

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I think we can acknowledge both the artistic/creative side of games as well as the business side. SE is a business first, but they also strive to deliver fun and entertaining games. We cannot split the two as they both serve a purpose in the creation of these games.
Of course, but as consumers we don't need to be concerned with the "business first" aspect of SE operations (unless we're talking about customer service with which we interact and is so god awful I can only surmise they are based out of one of the nine layers of Dante's Inferno) - merely the fun, positive experiences they provide. That should be behind the curtain. We just want fun games. That's ..why we give them our money.

Maybe it's because I've been seeing similar arguments over the past year (pertaining to KHIII, UX, etc) about how sales are commensurate with the quality of a product; it's a little bizarre to see the same conclusion leveraged against specific styles of gameplay. Sales figures shouldn't be an allure of a title, but it's callously marketed as a measure of the product's worth. So, McDonald's outsells all other cheeseburgers on earth. Doesn't make it a great cheeseburger. There are still a ton of other sandwiches I would prefer to eat over McDonald's, outranking taste and quality. I don't even hate McDonald's! Theoretically, high sales should just be a byproduct of a good game, but we know that isn't necessarily true either. And total garbage (and sometimes we like total garbage) can get wide theatrical releases, while there's plenty of gold to be found in low-budget cinema, indie gaming, music, artistry etc.

Similarly, discussing trends: just because a recent trend in gaming happens to be financially successful for SE, doesn't mean the old ways won't be should they return to them (with, likely because it's FF, some sort of variation). Final Fantasy X is probably considered the last traditionally turn-based game in the franchise, and it was wildly successful. But XII could have easily followed suit, and I respect that the team tried something non-traditional.

Anyways, since I'm not of a specific tribe, I was originally just trying to mediate a tug-of-war over styles of gameplay. I understand everyone has their favorites, but there's a lot of toys in the sandbox.
 

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SE changing FF to chase trends and changing it to experiment aren’t mutually exclusive. Stale’s just another word for played out or boring. And in business speak they’re all another word for unprofitable. Many SE devs did get bored of that gameplay and with 3D letting them do stuff they couldn’t before it’s easy for the suits to conflate that gameplay with being archaic.

.. Just because a game is turn-based that doesn't mean it plays the same, though? lol. A standart sequel would be a game built directly on top of the previous one, and the only FF that is remotely like that is 3 to 1, and even then that's a bit of a stretch.

No single FF game is like the other. There is a familiarity because of the similar elements, definitely, but all of them are different experiences, not only story-wise but they literally PLAY different from one another.

It's not like The Legend of Zelda where, although each game has a central gimmick atributed to it, they all follow the same pattern and general gameplay. You could easily take the "Final Fantasy [number]" away from all numbered titles and release each of them as individual games.

The only reason I don't agree with your stale coment is that it implies it was done purely to follow a trent, instead of the developers wanting to experiment with different things. It was done slowly with different games trying different approaches on bringing more action to turn combat starting from XII, and like someone else in this thread pointed out, part of the reason XV is the way it is was because it was originally a spin off game belonging to the Fabula Nova Crystalis compilation, and then turned into a main entry for numerous reasons.

XV wasn't built from the ground as a new entry in the main series, it was adapted from Versus for numerous reasons.

It's not like I ignore development patterns, company work and stuff. But FF clearly has not gone through what, say, Resident Evil went through where the games started to mutate (pun not intended) wildly to fit the industry for numerous reasons.

This will be my last post on this, though, as I think it started to go off topic and there's no point in arguing further if you have made your opinion on the matter.
I never said they did though? Like no duh adding new mechanics is going to change the way a game is played. That doesn’t suddenly change the core gameplay style. Do I really need to list the number of sequels that similarly made big changes whilst being direct sequels? It’s funny that you mentioned Zelda when everything you’ve said can be easily applied to it as well. Does Zelda 1 play like 2? Or Majora’s Mask? Or Skyward Sword? Of course not, but just like you said they all follow the same general gameplay. Same with classic FF.

Going from basic turn-based to turn-based with a class system, or ATB, or the Draw system isn’t that big a change. Going from turn-based to MMO/action is. It’s a whole different genre now. Apply this scenario to any other series you love. If the company behind my favorite stealth series gets tired of stealth and decide to turn it into a dedicated shooter, I’m not gonna like it anymore. That’s not what I was playing it for. Likewise those people got into FF because they liked that kind of RPG. Those FF commonalities are just set dressing.
 

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I'm hyped, but everything looks like they repurposed FFXV assets.
square always does that when they release the first teaser, it always look Either unfinished or similar to other works like ffxv or monster hunter world
E3C643BA-262D-4A4E-B92A-1D2B8F316282.jpeg
 

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There are a few areas where I'd like to see them give attention. Areas that XV failed majorly in.

I wanna see a diverse party. FFXV's party of four light-skinned men did not scratch my itch. They all came from similar backgrounds, already knew each other, and hardly squabbled outside of Gladio's angry episode. I want an unexpected ally or two, some weird creatures, robots, maybe even a woman

If you're gonna be an action game, be an action game. FFXV's non-committal approach to combat soured me. A real time combat game where you can pause reality to drink potions and even have a lengthy window to revive de-emphasizes skill, and that's reflected in the fact that enemies didn't behave in a way that rewarded input-based skill or setting up specific attacks. If the player can just brute-force their way through the toughest encounters with items, why bother programming interesting fights? so what we're left with is something that isn't as good as a real turn-based RPG, and something that isn't as good as an action game.

This new game seems to put an even higher emphasis on physical combos and snappy movement, so at that point, just simplify the rpg mechanics to the point that they don't impede upon the action game you're clearly trying to make.

I don't have a third thing that's worth going into, so I'm just bold-ing a third section of the post to make it seem more substantial. Overall, they have a chance to make an FF that isn't a frankenstein of Nomura and Tabata's visions, and just focus on making a good game.
 

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There are a few areas where I'd like to see them give attention. Areas that XV failed majorly in.

I wanna see a diverse party. FFXV's party of four light-skinned men did not scratch my itch. They all came from similar backgrounds, already knew each other, and hardly squabbled outside of Gladio's angry episode. I want an unexpected ally or two, some weird creatures, robots, maybe even a woman

If you're gonna be an action game, be an action game. FFXV's non-committal approach to combat soured me. A real time combat game where you can pause reality to drink potions and even have a lengthy window to revive de-emphasizes skill, and that's reflected in the fact that enemies didn't behave in a way that rewarded input-based skill or setting up specific attacks. If the player can just brute-force their way through the toughest encounters with items, why bother programming interesting fights? so what we're left with is something that isn't as good as a real turn-based RPG, and something that isn't as good as an action game.

This new game seems to put an even higher emphasis on physical combos and snappy movement, so at that point, just simplify the rpg mechanics to the point that they don't impede upon the action game you're clearly trying to make.

I don't have a third thing that's worth going into, so I'm just bold-ing a third section of the post to make it seem more substantial. Overall, they have a chance to make an FF that isn't a frankenstein of Nomura and Tabata's visions, and just focus on making a good game.
A Robot party member would be pretty cool. I don't think we've had any outside of Cait Sith in FF7.

Definitely agree on a return of non human race allies as well
 

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I'm sure the game will be fun.

But damn I want a HD 3D FF in Yoshitaka Amano's style! Yes with the faces like that and everything. Can you imagine a more fabulous Final Fantasy than one that looks like a living, breathing Amano painting? Nothing wrong with the realistic take, and I love a medieval setting, but I'd love to see Square push into something grander visually. Not that FFXVI won't be filled with beautiful locales and moments, I'm sure it will be. I just didn't feel something "new" from the trailer.
 

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But damn I want a HD 3D FF in Yoshitaka Amano's style! Yes with the faces like that and everything. Can you imagine a more fabulous Final Fantasy than one that looks like a living, breathing Amano painting? Nothing wrong with the realistic take, and I love a medieval setting, but I'd love to see Square push into something grander visually. Not that FFXVI won't be filled with beautiful locales and moments, I'm sure it will be. I just didn't feel something "new" from the trailer.
I have been wanting this for quite some time. Just give me at least one game, just one, where he is art director. Not just for the characters, but backgrounds and architecture as well. I want to live in the world that screams both high fashion and gothic-inspired eeriness.
 
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Bloodblade777-2

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Looks a little generic, like a 3d RPGmaker game. Ill wait for more news/trailers but this didn't hook me like other FF trailers did.
 
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