Abortion - Pro life or pro choice?

[Dogenzaka]

Neither them, nor the zygote, are living.

How can you say that?

Top 10 Properties of Life

1. Cells obey Laws of Energetics - i.e., they transform energy NAS-2
2. Cells are Highly Structured NAS-3 with emergent properties
3. Cells have an Evolutionary Origin (from a single primordial cell)NAS-1
4. Cells Metabolize
possess metabolic pathways, process nutrients,
self adjust to environment via metabolic regulation
5. Cells Self-Replicate (divide) µ
6. Cells Osmoregulate
7. Cells Communicate
8. Cells show Animation (cyclosis)
9. Cells Grow, Divide, & Differentiate
10. Cells Die

A zygote does each of those things and is classified as a living organism.

You're going to say it's not because it cannot reproduce because it's not sexually mature yet? What the fuck

 

[Lord of Chaos]

Being a recently licensed attorney, I can totally speak on this!

Not really, but I will anyway.

Legally, the difference here is the matter of one sentence. That sentence deals with when you consider life to begin. I don't know it exactly because it's not my area of expertise. However, I do believe in being Pro-Choice.

But, for the sake of this argument, I'll break out the papers... so let's look at the legal definition(s) of life:

1. The aggregate of the animal functions which resist a state of death.
-- Well, this doesn't tell us much as far as Abortion is concerned... it's too vague.

2. The state of animated beings, while they possess the power of feeling and motion. It commences in contemplation of law generally as soon as the infant is able to stir in the mother's womb
-- This is the definition that is most evenly presented and the least controversial (and when you see the next one you'll find out why). According to this, that's somewhere in the 2nd Trimester (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have children and I'm not a physiologist). Thus, if it is destroying life, that means that abortion would be legal somewhere in the first few months. However, we get to the next definition...

3. For many purposes, however, life is considered as begun from the moment of conception in ventre sa mere. Vide Foetus. But in order to acquire and transfer civil rights the child must be born alive. Whether a child is born alive, is to be ascertained from certain signs which are always attendant upon life. The fact of the child's crying is the most certain. There may be a certain motion in a new born infant which may last even for hours, and yet there may not be complete life. It seems that in order to commence life the child must be born with the ability to breathe, and must actually have breathed.
-- This is where the real debate comes in. The language presented in this definition, having been gathered from more than one source, contradicts itself in some places. Now, this also opens up another question: do you consider life a civil right or a natural right? Is it a right at all? Granted most people see it as the same thing but we as researchers and judicial scientists have to constantly amend these things. In our world, being born is not the same thing as being alive.


Anyway, the entire point is that legally it's a gray area. There's nothing we can do about that. This will never be settled, no matter what you think, because in the end, it's only your opinion.

 

[MomentoMori]

Being a recently licensed attorney, I can totally speak on this!

Not really, but I will anyway.

Legally, the difference here is the matter of one sentence. That sentence deals with when you consider life to begin. I don't know it exactly because it's not my area of expertise. However, I do believe in being Pro-Choice.

But, for the sake of this argument, I'll break out the papers... so let's look at the legal definition(s) of life:

1. The aggregate of the animal functions which resist a state of death.
-- Well, this doesn't tell us much as far as Abortion is concerned... it's too vague.

2. The state of animated beings, while they possess the power of feeling and motion. It commences in contemplation of law generally as soon as the infant is able to stir in the mother's womb
-- This is the definition that is most evenly presented and the least controversial (and when you see the next one you'll find out why). According to this, that's somewhere in the 2nd Trimester (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have children and I'm not a physiologist). Thus, if it is destroying life, that means that abortion would be legal somewhere in the first few months. However, we get to the next definition...

3. For many purposes, however, life is considered as begun from the moment of conception in ventre sa mere. Vide Foetus. But in order to acquire and transfer civil rights the child must be born alive. Whether a child is born alive, is to be ascertained from certain signs which are always attendant upon life. The fact of the child's crying is the most certain. There may be a certain motion in a new born infant which may last even for hours, and yet there may not be complete life. It seems that in order to commence life the child must be born with the ability to breathe, and must actually have breathed.
-- This is where the real debate comes in. The language presented in this definition, having been gathered from more than one source, contradicts itself in some places. Now, this also opens up another question: do you consider life a civil right or a natural right? Is it a right at all? Granted most people see it as the same thing but we as researchers and judicial scientists have to constantly amend these things. In our world, being born is not the same thing as being alive.


Anyway, the entire point is that legally it's a gray area. There's nothing we can do about that. This will never be settled, no matter what you think, because in the end, it's only your opinion.

The 2nd trimester lasts from the 3rd month to 6th month. I'm not really sure about the laws, but at the 20th to 21st week of pregnancy is when a woman experiences the quickening, or feeling the baby kick for the first time. So would performing an abortion at this time be illegal?

 

[Lord of Chaos]

The 2nd trimester lasts from the 3rd month to 6th month. I'm not really sure about the laws, but at the 20th to 21st week of pregnancy is when a woman experiences the quickening, or feeling the baby kick for the first time. So would performing an abortion at this time be illegal?

According to that definition, yes. It depends on when you define life. Currently, I believe the Supreme Court has ruled that life does not begin until that time or later. Once again, this is not my area of concentration so I don't know for sure.

 

[Monkey]

Uhh, if the thing can fucking kick you should not be allowed to abort it. That's sick. Of course unless there's medical complications endangering the mother's life.

 

[MomentoMori]

Uhh, if the thing can fucking kick you should not be allowed to abort it. That's sick. Of course unless there's medical complications endangering the mother's life.

I wasn't saying whether or not you should abort it. I was just asking for some clarification on the legal definition Lord of Chaos posted because I was a tad confused.

 

[Urbane]

Pro-choice, all the way.

 

[Chrono Mizaki]

The current legal situation means little when talking about what we feel the legal situation should be.
.

Sure, all our emotions, morals and logical thoughts shape the legal system. But as of it stands, on my argument, that fetus cannot feel anything. The only right it has is of the parent [or mother]'s rights. That's the only right they have over the fetus. They make the decision to let it grow and into a living being or it's erased, like nothing ever happened.

Sure there are cases where abortion might be the safest option for everyone involved, but in cases where women are just like "oh shit I forgot to use protection, now I have this baby! Gotta kill it"? fcuk them.

Abortion should always be a last resort. If they forgot to use protection, it's their fault. But no one should be forced to look after a baby. They should do it because THEY want to. If not, the parents is going to grow depressed and take it out on a child.

It's better to kill the fetus whilst it's still developing into a human than to let it live with either fucked up parents, be in a overcrowded home or jump from foster home to foster home without TLC

 

[Johnny Stooge]

Those legal definitions are messed up. Totally too wordy and completely vague and undecipherable. I'm much more of a fan of the way we define a person here in Australia (well Queensland) - not alive until you're born. That's pretty easy to comprehend. And that way we don't have idiots trying to push for murder or manslaughter on unborn children.


Anyways, I'm pro-choice. Always have been. The point is you could choose to have an abortion. You could choose not to. Either way, you should be allowed to make the choice. I firmly believe that the rights of the mother come before the rights of the foetus and that abortion should be an accessible option for all women. Not just those just those raped or sick.

It's extremely damaging on the psyche to go through the important years of development unloved and unwanted and in the end you wind up with something far worse than a discarded foetus: a damaged child. There's no reason to put someone through that just because you take issue with eliminating something that at such a level isn't even aware it exists.

 

[Lord of Chaos]

Those legal definitions are messed up. Totally too wordy and completely vague and undecipherable.

I know. I never had migraines until I was in Law School. @_@

 

[Coffee Lover]

I once had a conversation with my uncle about this. At the time, I was pro choice. It went something like this:

Uncle: Did you know your cousin was a product of a rape?
Me: No
Uncle: Well, yes she was. Do you love her? Don't you think she's a beautiful person?
Me: Yes I do, but-
Uncle: Now, her biological mother had a choice. She could have aborted your cousin. She could have destroyed a life.
Me: But it's not a life-
Uncle: But if you leave it alone, if you let it grow, does it not become a person? A real, breathing person?
Me: . . .
Uncle: Your cousin's mother decided not to abort her and put her up for adoption instead. She gave your cousin a chance at life and didn't have her destroyed because she didn't want her or because she was a product of a rape.
Uncle: If you ever get raped, I know you'll do the right thing.

When it comes to this topic, especially, all christians should ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?"

 

[kingdomkey96]

I once had a conversation with my uncle about this. At the time, I was pro choice. It went something like this:

Uncle: Did you know your cousin was a product of a rape?
Me: No
Uncle: Well, yes she was. Do you love her? Don't you think she's a beautiful person?
Me: Yes I do, but-
Uncle: Now, her biological mother had a choice. She could have aborted your cousin. She could have destroyed a life.
Me: But it's not a life-
Uncle: But if you leave it alone, if you let it grow, does it not become a person? A real, breathing person?
Me: . . .
Uncle: Your cousin's mother decided not to abort her and put her up for adoption instead. She gave your cousin a chance at life and didn't have her destroyed because she didn't want her or because she was a product of a rape.
Uncle: If you ever get raped, I know you'll do the right thing.

When it comes to this topic, especially, all christians should ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?"

well said brother well said indeed

 

[Johnny Stooge]

I once had a conversation with my uncle about this. At the time, I was pro choice. It went something like this:

Uncle: Did you know your cousin was a product of a rape?
Me: No
Uncle: Well, yes she was. Do you love her? Don't you think she's a beautiful person?
Me: Yes I do, but-
Uncle: Now, her biological mother had a choice. She could have aborted your cousin. She could have destroyed a life.
Me: But it's not a life-
Uncle: But if you leave it alone, if you let it grow, does it not become a person? A real, breathing person?
Me: . . .
Uncle: Your cousin's mother decided not to abort her and put her up for adoption instead. She gave your cousin a chance at life and didn't have her destroyed because she didn't want her or because she was a product of a rape.
Uncle: If you ever get raped, I know you'll do the right thing.

When it comes to this topic, especially, all christians should ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?"

But see that's the beautiful thing. Your cousins mother got to make the choice.

That's what this is all about: choice. You don't have to support abortion, you don't have to endorse it or have anything to do with it. But why deny others the freedom to make their own choice?

 

[Aucune Raison]

I once had a conversation with my uncle about this. At the time, I was pro choice. It went something like this:

Uncle: Did you know your cousin was a product of a rape?
Me: No
Uncle: Well, yes she was. Do you love her? Don't you think she's a beautiful person?
Me: Yes I do, but-
Uncle: Now, her biological mother had a choice. She could have aborted your cousin. She could have destroyed a life.
Me: But it's not a life-
Uncle: But if you leave it alone, if you let it grow, does it not become a person? A real, breathing person?
Me: . . .
Uncle: Your cousin's mother decided not to abort her and put her up for adoption instead. She gave your cousin a chance at life and didn't have her destroyed because she didn't want her or because she was a product of a rape.
Uncle: If you ever get raped, I know you'll do the right thing.

When it comes to this topic, especially, all christians should ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?"

The argument "How would you feel if a loved one were aborted?" is nonsense, because you wouldn't know them, you wouldn't mourn what never existed. We can never judge in the present if an abortion will have a positive or negative effect on the world, we can't know if a fetus will become Hitler or Einstein.

 

[Coffee Lover]

That's what this is all about: choice. You don't have to support abortion, you don't have to endorse it or have anything to do with it. But why deny others the freedom to make their own choice?

I'm not really for illegalizing abortion, I just think it's wrong. I just hope the women who do abort don't do it because they just don't want the child or because of something silly.

 

[MomentoMori]

I once had a conversation with my uncle about this. At the time, I was pro choice. It went something like this:

Uncle: Did you know your cousin was a product of a rape?
Me: No
Uncle: Well, yes she was. Do you love her? Don't you think she's a beautiful person?
Me: Yes I do, but-
Uncle: Now, her biological mother had a choice. She could have aborted your cousin. She could have destroyed a life.
Me: But it's not a life-
Uncle: But if you leave it alone, if you let it grow, does it not become a person? A real, breathing person?
Me: . . .
Uncle: Your cousin's mother decided not to abort her and put her up for adoption instead. She gave your cousin a chance at life and didn't have her destroyed because she didn't want her or because she was a product of a rape.
Uncle: If you ever get raped, I know you'll do the right thing.

When it comes to this topic, especially, all christians should ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?"

Key word here is "choice." She had a *choice*, just like any other pregnant woman out there.

 

[Thor.]

I don't take much stock in the whole "fetus is not a life" argument because it feeds grows moves etc. And honestly except in the cases of life-threatening pregnancies I don't see why anyone has the need to abort.

 

[Dogenzaka]

My sister was lucky to be born. Her father was determined on aborting her when he found out my mother was pregnant. She was 19 at the time and had no idea how to be a mother. My mother, bleeding, had to run away from home and hide in the street to avoid the father, who threatened to beat her stomach. My mom found a stranger that took her into her home, took care of her, and took her to a doctor that saved her from having a miscarriage.

My sister's 27 now, married, has a daughter, and a son on the way. She's an amazing person and teaches bilingual children.

fcuk abortion.

 

[Wehrmacht]

My sister was lucky to be born. Her father was determined on aborting her when he found out my mother was pregnant. She was 19 at the time and had no idea how to be a mother. My mother, bleeding, had to run away from home and hide in the street to avoid the father, who threatened to beat her stomach. My mom found a stranger that took her into her home, took care of her, and took her to a doctor that saved her from having a miscarriage.

My sister's 27 now, married, has a daughter, and a son on the way. She's an amazing person and teaches bilingual children.

fcuk abortion.

Yeah that's nice that it turned out well for your mother and sister, but unfortunately not everyone is so lucky.

 

[Roa]

Pro-choice.

The point Jezza brought up first, rape, is my biggest deciding factor in it. In rape and incest cases, the girl/women is already traumatized enough by the rape. And then a month later, she finds out she's pregnant. Can you even imagine how bad the girl must feel? I mean, first she's raped, and then finds out she's pregnant. If they feel like they can't handle a baby then, i don't blame them. It's stressful and hurtful enough as it is. They don't need morning sickness, and then a 8 pound bundle of crying 8 months later. It's bad enough as it is.

So yea, that's my deciding factor right there. 'Nuff said.