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Abortion - Pro life or pro choice?



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Wehrmacht

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I hate this entire argument. Barring special cases (such as rape and the like), it's based exclusively on when you consider something to be human. For example, I believe that, even as a "parasite", that it's a human from conception. It's not going to be anything but human, after all (and therefore, I refer to it as a human). Where as there are some people that think the mother should be allowed the option even after birth.

Sure it's human from a biological standpoint, but so are cancer cells.

Not that I'm necessarily comparing a fetus to cancer (though I kind of am), but I don't think it's as simple as "it's human, so we shouldn't kill it".

Funny how you can do jail time for harming a pet, but you can legally go to a clinic to kill a human being.

Well that depends on what you classify as a "human being". As i said from a biological standpoint a fetus is "human", but it's not really a "person", is it?

That and pets feel pain. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a fetus is capable of feeling pain until a while past where abortion is safe anyway.
 

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According to my Sex Ed teacher, to perform an abortion, you'd have to wait some time and in that time, a heart is formed, meaning that a life has yet to be developed. In my personal opinion, it's murder. So, I think it should be banned.
 

Nyangoro

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Sure it's human from a biological standpoint, but so are cancer cells.

Not that I'm necessarily comparing a fetus to cancer (though I kind of am), but I don't think it's as simple as "it's human, so we shouldn't kill it".

Not to insult (and believe me, I am in no way insulting you by saying this), but that just sounds like a lame excuse to me. We know that it isn't cancer, but a developing human life. Yet, when we want to get rid of it, we compare it to cancer for justification.
 

Wehrmacht

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Not to insult (and believe me, I am in no way insulting you by saying this), but that just sounds like a lame excuse to me. We know that it isn't cancer, but a developing human life. Yet, when we want to get rid of it, we compare it to cancer for justification.

My point was just because it's technically human doesn't mean it's human. A fetus can't think, act, feel pain, nor has any of the qualities most people associate with a person.

It is a potential human life, sure, but we don't necessarily treat things on the basis of what they become. I'm going to be an old man some day, but the law doesn't treat me like an old man for now.
 

Nyangoro

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True, but at the same time, being allowed the "right to live" and "senior privileges" don't seem like two things that should be treated the same simply because of the latter(at least, I think that they shouldn't).
 

kingdomkey96

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this would be a more interesting topic if it was:is abortion okay if the woman was NOT raped.
just as it is i'd say pro-choice but if a woman willingly has unsafe sex then unfortunately she should have to bear the consequences
 

Wehrmacht

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Well on a personal level I appreciate the idea that most people should have a right to live and see what they can make of themselves (as I previously said I dislike the idea of abortion). I just don't know if I have the right to make that decision for the mother.
 

Nyangoro

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Well, like I said, I can be more lenient towards special cases; but at the same time, I also have a hard time condemning the fetus for the mother's convenience.
 

Lycanthrope

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I'm not a fan of abortion necessarily, but I feel that it is the mother's right to choose. Really it depends on circumstances, such as the rape circumstance brought up earlier in the thread. Also, medical conditions and whatnot. But even if the mother wants an abortion just out of convenience of her life, I'm not going to stop her. It's her decision what she does to her body.
 

Dogenzaka

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It all depends on how you define a "human being", when exactly does an embryo become human?

From the moment it has the joined set of human chromosomes. Is a child considered not a human being simply because it's not a fully-developed adult yet? That's silly.

That and pets feel pain. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a fetus is capable of feeling pain until a while past where abortion is safe anyway.

Why does pain matter? You don't feel pain if you're shot in the head, either. A bacterium doesn't feel pain when it's dropped in a petri dish full of alcohol. It's still the taking of a life.

The point being that if you don't want a pet anymore, you can't simply kill it without going to jail for your irresponsibility. You have to find an owner for it or take it to the pound. The funny thing is, that same law doesn't even apply to a human being.
 

Wehrmacht

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Why does pain matter? You don't feel pain if you're shot in the head, either. A bacterium doesn't feel pain when it's dropped in a petri dish full of alcohol. It's still the taking of a life.

I think whether it feels anything or not is at least a little relevant. At least the fetus won't suffer if it's aborted in a safe manner.

Animal abuse is a crime primarily because animals are close enough to us where they can feel pain and we, as fellow animals, empathize with it.

From the moment it has the joined set of human chromosomes. Is a child considered not a human being simply because it's not a fully-developed adult yet? That's silly.

Again, the question isn't whether a fetus isn't human, but rather if it's a person with rights to be protected. It's a complicated issue.

The point being that if you don't want a pet anymore, you can't simply kill it without going to jail for your irresponsibility. You have to find an owner for it or take it to the pound. The funny thing is, that same law doesn't even apply to a human being.

Well it's not necessarily difficult to put up a pet for adoption. I've never done so myself, but is it that much difficult than simply taking the pet over there and signing a few papers?

Pregnancy, on the other hand, lasts a very long time (3/4's of a year) and it's not necessarily a very comfortable period for the woman. Especially if it's for a child you don't really want anyway.

I agree you that theoretically people should take responsibility for what they end up doing, but the thing is, that viewpoint, in my opinion, focuses too much on wanting to "punish" the parents, and
doesn't put the eventual well-being of the child first, which is much more important to me.

It's not impossible for an unwanted child to become a blessing in disguise, but that really depends on the situation. If you live in a well-off family with financial stability and with the means to support another child, however unwanted, it doesn't need to be bad. But not everyone is that lucky.

Adoption is another issue with its own set of problems. Rather than outright banning abortion, I think we should work on improving the adoption system first.

My main concern with the question of abortion are the special case, like rape victims and life-threatening situations. My sympathies are with the child in the case of an irresponsible mistake, but it's not my body or my business and outside of ethical considerations not much comes out of it, however much I disagree with the choice the woman is making.
 

megatron532

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I look at it two ways: 1. If she was raped, or forced into it not by her choice like that, than it's okay. Or if it threatens her life.
2. She's in no danger, and made the choice to get pregnant, that's comparable to murder. People suffer the consequences for their actions, therefore if it wasn't their actions, they need not suffer the consequences. Children tend not to take on any awareness or sentience until somewhere along the first year of life, so, no, it's not murder, but that doesn't make it right now does it?
 

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As a woman I am pro-choice. But having said that, I don't bother with men, and when I do I always use maximum protection to avoid unwanted pregnancy. In the event that I did get pregnant - say, the condom split or whatever - I would have an abortion since I do not want a child and I will have known that it was simply a mistake when I was taking all the necessary precautions. First of all, I can't stand children. Second of all, I don't want a child to drag me down; I'd pretty much have to abandon my hopes and dreams to raise it for a good 18 or so years, and even more so after.

However, I think that women who sleep around without using protection should take responsibility for their mistakes. If they can't use a condom, then they should feel darned bad about what they're doing to themselves, to the father and to the child.
 

Chrono Mizaki

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I'm Pro-Choice. Why? Because I believe that no woman or man should be forced to look after the baby just because they made a mistakes. It's going to make them depressed, it's going to make the child miserable. But I'm guessing you're going to tell me "Adoption", in which case, we're already overpopulated with homes. In Britain, you'll have homeless children. You'll have some girls who could get into prostitution. A small minority, but a minority nethertheless. If we even send them into a children home for adoption, how long it's going to be for the child? Will it get adopted within a week? A month? Or will it jump from foster home to foster home, without proper love and affection?

A child needs a stable home, a mother and a father to love, to keep it on the straight path. If their biological parents can't do that, then how many other parents would try to love the child unconditionally. A small minority. So what do I say? Better to pull the trigger and put the bullet in the developing baby whilst you still have the chance. Besides, we're overpopulated and we're not all under obligation to have children. When I have sex, I don't think the prospect of having children. Why? I enjoy sex. That's why I use contraception. If I fucked up and if my girlfriend don't want it, we'll jump on the first train to abortion-ville.

You might think it's cruel. You might think it's inhumane. Heck, it could be comparable to murder. But you know? The developing baby, at the start of its cycle. It's not sentient. It does not know its surrounding. It doesn't have any feelings. It does not know you. Heck, it does not know whether it exist or not. How can you kill something that doesn't technically exist yet?

If my mother somehow want an abortion now with me, then I wouldn't care. Why? I wouldn't exist. So yes, kill your unborn baby by having an abortion. But it's not a sentient human yet. It cannot feel, it cannot express emotions, it cannot even cry. Because it's not sentient.
 
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