Ventus ventus ventus. What have you done again?

so how many years until we see Lauriam losing his s**t and goes berserk mode on Ven? Out-universe, I mean

Well, going by the Kingdom Hearts 2020 trailer, we're in the last arc, so... It depends on how much longer they intend to ride this horse. Maybe 6 months to a year at max? Who knows.

I mean it's not like Ven did something to Strelitzia, it was 'Darkness' who attacked after all and Ven just picked up the book but still.

TBH when Ven said before that he was with Ava, i thought that Drakness transformed into Ava, but seeing this chapter, more that 'tranformed' it looks like 'Darkness' is Ava.

Oh Ven, you poor thing.

Why blame Ventus when Vanitas is right there. Always blame Vanitas, the same darkness that said he & Ven were a separate entities + always been inside of Ventus for a really long time. After all, what he is, is “Darkness”. ;)


No really, we can’t blame Ventus. Maybe for the lack of backbone but Ventus is a CHILD, people. He was in a tough situation and got possessed to kill someone. This is not his fault, that’s 100% Darkness fault.

[S]I don't remember the trailer saying that we are in the last arc but we are at the second phase.

And for some reason i remember somewhere Nomura saying that there are 3 arcs with Xehanorts saga being the first one. Although i may be completely wrong and i just made that up.[/S]

Edit: Forget what i said, my bad for not reading the entire message

In the part of the trailer about UX specifically, it says 'The Final Chapter' begins. And the Second Phase is for the franchise more generally, I think.

Ah yeah okay i didn't read the full post for some reason and i thought he mean for the entire franchise xDD

My bad sorry

Last arc for Union X, not Kingdom Hearts as a whole. That's what the KH2020 trailer suggests, at least.

You're halfway there?

The UX trailer within the KH 2020 trailer did indeed say we were entering the final chapter.

Nomura said in his letter from the 4th anniversary that he had received a mystery request related to a yet-announced "3rd line" of KH. I honestly do not remember if we've gotten more info about this 3rd line since then. I think we were speculating it was related to the D+ series?

Ugh, Ven been used as a pawn again
So, it is Ava after all?

Rough translation part 1. Pardon me if I have mistakes
part 1 translation
Maleficent: This is .. the real world?
darkness: Yeah, congrats for your escape
Maleficent: The current era?
Darkness: No, the time is still the past time.
You just return to the real world from the data world
Maleficent: Sophisticated as hell
Maleficent: So, how do I return to the current time?
Darkness: Get inside this pot
Maleficent: What?
Maleficent: If it is like that, why I not just directly go there without going back to here?
Darkness: Just now, it is just transporting you from data world to real world
It is not doing any time-travel
Maleficent: Why not directly doing both action?
Darkness: The machine is not that can-do-it-all
Darkness: Just like what has been said before, this machine is supposed to travel to other world
Maleficent: Hmph, well then whatever. So, this time it can return me to the real world right?
Darkness: Yes
Maleficent: By the way, don't you also go to the current era?
Maleficent: You can also ride that thing since you don't have a body right?
Darkness: You don't need to know anything else
Darkness: And I also have things to do here

I’m glad mostly everybody was right that Ven did it but also that Darkness did it.

More like Darkness disguising as Ava. Before this update, it was suggested and speculated by the characters (Brain) that Darkness changed their appearance to impersonate as Ava.

To be honest, I don’ think it would make sense if it was the real Ava. If she didn't want Strelitzia to have the book, she could've essentially requested that Strelitzia give the book back and offer it to Ven. Or give the book to Ventus from the get go, instead of Strelitzia.

It certainly was extreme, but we were told that Ava is the only one among the Foretellers who is capable of doing what needs to be done, so 8D

Part 2 ( I am sure I have some mistakes but pardon me)
part 2 translation
Ephemer: Is Ven okay?
Skuld: I put him in the bed
Maybe because of the shock, he slept after a while
Ephemer: I see
Skuld: Since he keeps holding his head, maybe he faint because of the sudden memory of the truth
Skuld: This means Ven's also a victim right?
Skuld: If you know something, please tell us
Blaine: It is not that I know the detail
Blaine: But judging from Ven's dialouge , Ven is at the place where Strelitzia vanishes
Blaine: Which means this maybe someone's work
Ephemer: Darkness?
Skuld: Eh?
Blaine: It seems like that darkness is more active nearby that what we have thought

Yeah it doesn't make much sense. Though it's possible that if Ava is Darkness she might have a reason for killing Strelitzia and allowing Ven to be exposed (like maybe getting Lauriam to be mad to set up a conflict between the leaders or something).

Part 3
part 3
I will call the right black coat rbc and the left lbc
rbc: sigh..
rbc: sigh...
rbc: sigh...
lbc: What? What is it? What are you sighing from just now
rbc: In the end, we have to the end the world because darkness won't disappear until we find how to escape this world.
This means we cannot win against darkness isn't it?
lbc: Oh I see, you are dissatisifed because cannot win against darkness
rbc: Of course
rbc: We keyblade wielders purpose is to fight against darkness after all. But in the end we just run away like a chicken because we cannot win
lbc: That phrase of running away like chicken sounds bad
rbc: But it is like that, isn;t it?
rbc: Even if the world change, we still only can run away
lbc: Luxu-kun, even if I have taught you so many things about your special task it seems that you still don;t understand anything
rbc: What do you mean?
lbc: You think too much
lbc: When you think too much, you reach to the wrong conclusion. Or even, think there is no asnwer
lbc: You will know the answer someday
rbc: You mean I need to wait?
lbc: Since there is progress, there will be result
rbc: Sigh..
lbc: What? What the hell?
rbc: I cannot accept that I have to wait for uncertain time
lbc: You want to live in a place that you know all things that wait for you? (This here means you know the result no matter what you do )
rbc: No, that's
lbc: There is one way to against darkness
rbc: Eh?
lbc: But it is not easy. You need many steps and time.
Not just one or two circle of lives
lbc: That's why we need to escape this world. Need to end the world
Need to throw away the time and the root of the world.
This all is done to win against darkness

Back in the day, we blame Lauriam for fridging Streltzia. Oh, how the turntables.

last part
Strelitzia: If it like what have you seen from before, the one left is this empty house
Chirithy: ugh, maybe what I have seen is wrong
Strelitiza: Hello!! Is there anyone here?
Strelitiza: Anyone here?
Chirithy: Looks like there is no one here
Strelitiza: Okay, should we head back to the fountain?
Chirithy: You are right, I will search one more time
Chirithy: Ah
Strelitzia: Eh?
(Darkness attacks)
Darkness: Pick that up
Chirithy: Why?
Darkness: Let's go

Once again, sorry if I have any mistakes

How about if at that time she is also already possesed by Darkness? There is no info of her after her confrotation with Luxu after all

I mean sure but I think it’s just Darkness disguising itself as Ava.

Well, the possiblity of Darkness disguising as Ava is high but I don't really think we can exclude Ava entirely either
Darkness purpose is to make the dandelions escape also right. If nothing happens, I doubt they will use the pot
What I mean is Ven being found out maybe was the plan from beginning

Yeah maybe. Only Nomura knows anyways

The interview that is posted on the tweet

If Ava is really darkness, it could explain why darkness knows lots of things about the tower
But This is Nomura we are talking about so maybe it is not that easy

Hehe... That line about her being the one who can pull the trigger is pretty neat. During the Keyblade war in Chi she says something like maybe she too will get swallowed by her darkness, so who knows.

But I'm loving the shape-shifter elements. (Ava herself is a shape-shifter - she turns into Ira in Chi - are there other characters besides Vanitas, Namine? and Zexion who can take on other appearances?)

The transition from darkness to light at the end is very simple but super cool.

EDIT: So I'm assuming Darkness took on Player's appearance to make Strelitzia's Chirithy think it saw Player get into the house? Or did the Chirithy see Player and Skuld get in the house when they were meeting with Gula? I'm fuzzy about the timeline.

Poor Ven. How'd he end up in this mess? Why him?

(laughs)

Any idea when translations should be up?
only watched the strelitzia part for the reveal, need some context on the other

The Chirithy saw Player and Skuld go into the house.

wait for goldpanner

So, a lot of hype, but very little new information. The only semi-interesting fact seems to be that the (un-)digitizing machine and the ark are in fact the same thing. Disappointing. :(

Now, what about the murder scene?

We have a dark figure who attacks and kills Strelitzia, and then steps out of the darkness of the building and is revealed to be Ava. This was expected, the fake Ava is the killer. Using the same graphics to represent him/her in the darkness as is used for the Darkness character is a bit too deceptive for my tastes unless they are the same person, but I still don't think they are. The reason is, I count total of five big holes in the story they are trying to sell us:
[LIST=1]
[*]How did the killer know that Strelitzia is a union leader? We have gone through this many times. Only MoM, Ava, Strelitzia herself, and her Chirithy had that information.
[*]How did the killer know that Strelitzia would go into the building at the time she did? Only Strelitzia herself and her own Chirithy knew that, and Elrena's Chirithy could have guessed it. And even they knew it only a few minutes before it actually happened. But Ven was invited to the scene beforehand, which tells us that there was some kind of planned plot going on.
[*]Why was the murder and swap necessary at all? If the Darkness needs one of the union leaders as his vessel, why not use Strelitzia for that? Note how similar personalities she and Ven appear to be, both full of potential but lacking self-confidence.
[*]Why invite Ven on the murder scene? The logical thing for the Darkness to do would be committing the murder in secrecy, picking up the book, and then going to find Ven. Having him on scene creates an unnecessary risk of him remembering the murder, which in fact is exactly what has happened now.
[*]How does the Darkness have access to the Book of Prophecies, and how does he know the inside of the clock tower? It seems that for this, the Darkness must be one of the known characters: MoM, Luxu, one of the foretellers, or one of the union leaders. And of those, looks like everyone but the union leaders can be ruled out by other things we know about the Darkness.
[/LIST]
It seems that we are supposed to be able to figure all this out with the information we have right now. Good luck with that.

Also, we sort of know that we don't have the full truth, because of all the unused clues about how the full truth will be found. First, there is the scene where Lauriam draws attention to the fact that Elrena's memories have been replaced (quest #851, I believe). Then there is that seemingly pointless conversation between two Chirithies (is that the correct plural) at the beginning of the Keyblade War quests cutscene, about how the memory replacement can be reversed. And finally, there is the similarity between the plot of Wreck-it Ralph and the situation with false memories here. When we put these together, we get: the Player will return from the Wreck-it Ralph world and report to the union leaders what happened there. Brain will notice the similarity and conclude that they need to find someone who was near the murder scene at the time the murder happened and reverse their memory replacement. And of course that someone will be Elrena, and this is how she will get involved in the main storyline.

One theory that has been around for a which may explain this is Skuld is Ava since the only one knows about the tower is
foretellers and the one who knows player have been there is Skuld but this cannot explain why the darkness knows Strelitizia
will look for the player though.

Yes. That's the biggest question I was left with.

About Elrena's memories, wasn't Lauriam just talking about how they've taken the memories of all the Dandelions so they wouldn't remember that the war happened?

Another hour or two, give or take.

Yes, and that is exactly what I was talking about. The war officially started when the bell rung, which was before the murder, so this should include memories from the time of the murder.

Oh, yes, the days where people are calling me crazy for proposing the idea Lauriam might be Strelitzia's big brother solely for Marluxia was voiced by Shuichi Ikeda and is affiliated with a color that is sort of a shade of red. Oh, how the table has turned, indeed.

So Ventus or Darkness was the killer after all. I'm curious if Ava is Darkness or just taking her form. Ava's been my favorite of the Foretellers so I really wanna know more about what she's been doing since she didn't rejoin the group by KH3. Has Ava turned to the dark side? Or is this in league with what Luxu and MoM want? So many questions and this is so exciting.

I wouldn’t discount the possibility that that might really be Ava. She’s never really been scot-free of sin, so to speak, and has a lot to hide. It might also be correct that it is just Darkness’ disguise and it’s not really her, but a lot of things are still unclear. I just want to know though if this answers the question of who the original traitor was.

As much as Ven is a cinnamon roll though, I kinda wanna see him getting waled on by Lauriam either in UX or post-III for his involvement in Strelitzia’s going toes up. Poor guy deserves some answers, even if it means hostility against an “innocent” party. We do know now though that he is at least an accessory to the crime at best, an (probably) accomplice at worst.

How long till strelitzia comes back lol

but yeah, Ava is Darkness all along would make sense, don't in one interview Nomura was like "yall think Ava is sort of pure, cinnamon roll? naaa she's not that pure" cmiiw

Well, it's pretty clear Ven isn't the killer. He was definitely present, saw the whole thing happen, and couldn't control himself. But whoever Darkness is killed Strelitzia in one killing blow. Chirithy too.

No wonder Ven's memories were erased in the future. Whoever did the erasing was very kind to make sure he didn't remember he was an accessory to a murder. I have a feeling things are about to get really bad for our new group of foretellers.

Who "Darkness" is, I don't know. I don't think it's Ava. And I think it hitched a ride on Ven into the future and eventually became a part of Vanitas. But whatever Darkness is is still sticking around inside his body since Sora encountered it.

For what purpose....

Well, this was a completely plausible and I would say even natural theory back then. Lauriam simply doesn't belong. He is a proud person, while the others are very humble (and the box has the text χsuper, which literally means "lack/end of pride"). He has been behaving in a suspicious and somewhat out-of-character way since we first met him: arriving late, refusing to participate, and finding ways to circumvent the rules in the rulebook. In fact, he still doesn't work as a part of the union leader team. He is also the only one of them without a meaningful name. Most people here have forgotten all this since it became clear that he has nothing to do with the murder, but it still needs to be explained.

Skuld is too young to be Ava. The only way this could be possible is if she time travels back to UX time from the modern timeline (which means abandoning Ephemer) and then becomes MoM's disciple there without MoM recognizing who she actually is. Not completely impossible, but sounds unlikely.

In the modern timeline, probably two or three games from now. I do believe it will happen, because of how they are building up Lauriam as the next hero of the series.

.I dunno, after all ava and gula are the youngest member and we never see her face anyway
But I also doubt it though

I don't think Darkness is Ava. Remember, Ventus in the future is possessed by Darkness, and that creates Vanitas. I also doubt that the MoM would miss one of his students literally being Darkness. We also do know how Darkness could have learned who the Dandelion Leaders were, the Dark Chirithies. In the movie Ira finds one sneaking around and if there is only one, that means it must have snuck out because the Player fights it later. If there are more than one that means that many of them could have been sneaking around even after Ira catches them, and there is no confirmation that they don't work directly or indirectly for Darkness.

I think ava is darkness wont contradict vanitas is inside ven if ava discards her body and loses her memory in the process
But it is quite strange that Blaine convinced it was not Ava on previous updates if it is Ava

I think Darkness is not a "who", but an "it". An ethereal being. Darkness is not any of the existing characters we know so far.

In ReMind, when the Master of Master speaks to a younger Xehanort, he reveals his name but we don't know what it is. What we do know is that there's a bright glimmer of light when he pronounces his name. So I believe the Master of Masters is an ethereal being of light.

So ultimately, I believe the Master of Masters was trying to get rid of Darkness, he just did so in a morally antagonistic way.

it's Laurel + Memoriam. Laurels are plants commonly used to make leaf crowns in the days of ancient greek and rome, and in KH3 he appears in Kingdom of Corona. Corona is Latin for crown. And memoriam, "in memory of", that even if the world forgets Strelitzia, he will be last one to give her a memorial, besides, from what we've seen from Lauriam so far, it seems that he's live and die solely for Strelitzia.

Imagine telling someone who just finished COM one day Marluxia will be painted as a hero.

Wow, this update almost had the MoM's entire motivation laid out. Assuming he is telling the truth, his true goal is to destroy the darkness once and for all, or at least the most destructive force of it, but it will take lifetimes and much preparation. Probably needs exceptional guardians of light from multiple worldlines drawn out to fight it.

This also explains Luxu and how he can be so loyal to the extent that he simply watched his comrades kill each other and end the world and then body hop for centuries. He knows the true end goal is to defeat the darkness.

If this is the case, this is a pretty significant update. MoM and Luxu/Xigbar may become allies/mentors to Sora and Yozora to fight the true source of darkness. I would actually love that. Especially for Xigbar, would be such a great dynamic and growth for his character.

Videos are up! As always, please send goldpanner your love and thanks <3

Goldpanner is the best as always <3

The big problem with this is that it redefines the concept of darkness in the whole series. For example, it throws Riku's whole story under a bus: What is the point of understanding your weaknesses and learning to control your own darkness if you end up being possessed by such beings anyway?

I'm taking this personally.
[SPOILER]
I love/hate the MoM being meta XD
[ATTACH type="full" width="453px" alt="UXMoMBeingMeta1.jpg"]12952[/ATTACH]
Look at his hands ? Kudos to the animator(s?). His body language is always awesome.[/SPOILER]

Well we know one thing.

Ven is basically innocent since he didn't do it willingly.

That means he isn't the one who opened the Chamber of Secrets.

I'll spoiler this if you didn't watch the videos or translations.
Maleficent to Darkness: "You have have no flesh, surely you could easily travel through time" it seems darkness is in fact ethereal. It doesn't seem to contradict nor refute her.

The same would be true if he is one of the union leaders time traveling from the (near) future. Time travel happens as a heart.
But it does rule out some other possibilities for his identity. Thank you for pointing it out!

The Master of Masters is essentially the Bahamut to Darkness's Starscourge.

Idk, I'd compare him more to Arecia Al-Rashia or Enna Kros. They lay out the pieces of the puzzle and observe while the children actually try (and fail over and over and over) to save the world.

Bahamut was pretty hands off until Noct entered the crystal.

Which is what I've been saying since Back Cover.

(damn I can't find my first post but I found my post from 2019 at least lol)

It doesn't really redefine concept of darkness. None of the characters in the current timeline understood what Darkness was - KH2 made it clear that they have essentially baseless fears of dark beings, akin to racism, and that they refuse to understand darkness as a concept. This still goes hand in hand with learning to control PERSONAL darkness, which is understood to be weakness associated with feelings of hatred, rage, and other such things.

That is a rather...generous reading of the MoM.

I don't think this changes anything if anything it just confirms a theory I've had ever since we heard some of his backstory. He's remnant of a different time, a time before darkness because he fought in the war that started all this. But rather than accept that the war is over, that no side actually won, that times have changed... the MoM won't move on. He won't be satisfied until Darkness is eradicated and he is willing to go to abhorrent lengths to achieve victory. He's willing to destroy the world, kill thousands, manipulate his students, and create repeat battles all to achieve this. How is this any different from Eraqus who tried to kill Ventus and Terra to stop the X-blade from being forged, or MX who wanted to reset the world anew to create a balanced world where light isn't swallowed by the dark?

The MoM is wrong, darkness doesn't need to be eradicated he needs to get over it. He lived in the time when obsession with light was so strong it spawned darkness and started a war. He lived in a time where he taught his students light is the best and put the fear of darkness into them so that they and their child filled unions would destroy...pretty much everything out of fear of the dark. Eraqus created Terra's self loathing, Aqua's imbalance, and Ven's sense of powerless and imprisonment out of fear of the dark. It just keeps going a never ending cycle of these people who preach light as superior and then are consumed by a frankly irrational fear/hate of the darkness that if you take a moment to step back....doesn't really make sense.

MoM is openly the villain here, if he had put half as much effort into accepting the world changed and helping it find new balance we be in a very different place. If the world does need a leader to stand up and guide it, it's sure as hell not the MoM. It's someone like Sora who preaches unity and acceptance or Riku who created a coexistence of light and dark where the best traits of both have been shown. The MoM needs to be taught by them not the other way around.

As for the being known as Darkness it remains to be seen what their goal is. Maybe they are like the MoM unable to accept the results of the war and are intent on getting victory. Or maybe just maybe they are doing what they do out of self preservation, trying to stop their existence from being erased and I can't see that as evil, if something is alive it has an inherent right to life even if you don't like it. We don't know enough yet...and I'm still not 100% certain that what we saw was it shape shifting into Ava and instead just a reveal that it was Ava, because Darkness still has a lot of knowledge that very few people should know. The book of prophecies and its contents, the identity of the dandelion leaders and their rule book marking them, the arc which it knew not only the location of but it's actual history of what it was intended to be. Not to mention Ava's "mission" and the fact she is absent from the Foreteller reunion.

If so then I would absolutely see Darkness as the good guy here or at least a third party, working against the MoM after Luxu told her the truth. Realizing that the MoM is an absolute psychopath and needs to be stopped.

Having to use the ark twice kind of defeats the elegance of using it as a loophole to be sent back into the real world when the time is right. Like that's what our understanding was, right? Ventus, Laurium, Elrena and Skuld (at least) use the other pods to re-enter the timeline which has progressed at a different rate than the simulation they're inside. But no, they just use it to get to some other pods to do normal time travel. If that's the case they shouldn't have to go into a simulation anyway. (Or maybe, rather than time travel per se, it sends them to the other worldline?)

I'm also curious that Darkness says that they were originally made to traverse the oceans between. Sorry if there's an old scene I missed, but how long has the ark been here? I guess it was made in anticipation of the world ending up fractured, which MoM definitely seems to have anticipated.

At first I wasn't sure that Darkness really was Ava, because the sequence of events appeared to leave very little time for her to do this among all the other things happening.

But when Ava strikes at Luxu, the bell tolls at 12:00 sharp.
At the end of Ventus's flashback, the camera pans to show the clock tower at 6:25 (or so).
I dunno about you guys, but I was definitely of a mind that Strelitzia's murder had happened shortly after Player and Skuld left that building.
However the truth seems to be Ava had a lot more time to set that up long after Player, Skuld and Gula had left.

Aside from that, I knew the "ark" wasn't really the ark. It was just the exit to the real world.
And that presents something of an issue.
The pod in the data world disappeared. And now a pod in the real world will disappear.
We all knew some people had to be left behind, but it seems that this'll happen twice now.
Someone will be left in the data world, and someone left in the real world.

I know they mentioned that darkness can take the form of humans, but to me, this cutscene made it seem like Darkness IS Ava

The union leaders did not use the ark to go to the future. Doing that would destroy their bodies, which did not happen to them (Ephemer may be an exception, but there are other possibilities for what happened to him). In fact, I suspect Brain may end up being the only one who goes into the real world in UX timeline.

I have posted this before, in the thread about Xigbar's character file:


My theory is that the box isolates the Book from its source of power, which I believe to be Kingdom Hearts itself. Of course, if creation of Vanitas is part of MoM's plan, the simulation must have reactivated to let Ven out. For that, an alternative source of power is needed, and conveniently there is a large pile of Lux lying around somewhere, gathered by the Dandelions for apparently no reason. But this would be much less powerful than Kingdom Hearts, so the simulation using it runs very slowly, which explains how they got separated from each other. A few minutes inside could be several years in real world.

Darkness says that Maleficent is supposed to exist as a "guide" for others who otherwise have nobody in the future to remember them, one of the requirements for using the ark to transcend time.
It stands to reason the characters who will be sent to the future are doing so as part of some plan, and preparations for replacement bodies have been made.

Where did you get that? In the Keyblade War quest scene, it shows 6:00...

While checking that, I noticed that I had slightly misremembered the Chirithy memory overwrite stuff at the start of that video. It was not a discussion between two of them, but a single one explaining it. But that mistake doesn't matter for the content of the post.


Which tells me that the Darkness doesn't know about the box, which then rules out MoM as possible identity for him.
Also, this can be approached from the other end: Who does Maleficent remember?

It's funny how MoM talking to Luxu felt like Nomura talking to a KH fan.

Always found Ventus a boring character. Vanitas/Darkness surrouding his character is his only saving grace for me and I'm glad he's the one who did it, even if he was possessed.

I'm loving all the mystery about Darkness and I'm now more interested in knowing more about it than MoM.

Thats because Nomura said something to the same effect in an interview. Like MoM is just metaparody of Nomura at this point, literally making shit up as he goes lmao.

Curious what his plan is to fight the dorkness, how it ties to the power of waking and Verum Rex tbh.

2:40
This is from the original browser scene.
I suppose it's possible the clock face was changed in the Uχ scene.
Edit: I've checked the Uχ version, and the clock face is unchanged.

Who does Maleficent remember?

Lauriam at the very least. If she leaves without meeting anyone else, Lauriam could serve as the guide for the others.

22:12
SNAFU.

Edit: Actually not. Just confusion about which way the hour hand is pointing.

Maleficent, how would you describe KINGDOM HEARTS plot?
[spoiler][ATTACH type="full" width="253px"]12953[/ATTACH][/spoiler]

So it looks like the Ark was meant to be the first "Gummiship", but they ended up using it to traverse between real and data world.

I have a theory concerning the MoM's method of purging the worlds of darkness:
* In FINAL FANTASY XV, Ardyn was to absorb all of the Starcourge and fell by one last king. This last king was the heir to a power amassed by 100+ kings and he unleashed it in the after life and forever purged the world of the Starscourge.

My point here is: the Master of Masters may be waiting for a perfect point in time where darkness is concentrated in a singular place, person or entity and he will use whoever it is that had enough light in order to banish it forever. The way that he says that he will discard the borders of the world makes me think that it was his plan all along to seek someone like Xehanort in order to corrupt the worlds with darkness.

I think the MoM's endgame is to fill the Realm of Light with darkness and purge it all in one shot, meaning that Xehanort's vision in KHIII is the MoM's plan.

This played out almost exactly as I suspected in the case of Ventus being involved.

The whole hinting about him "having no backbone" by Blaine, "being too kind for his own good" by Xehanort or "being too pure" by "Darkness" in Re:Mind all pointed towards such a scenario from the get go alongside the few appearances we got of him during the UX story updates themselves about how diffident, insecure and without self-esteem he acts yet it is pointed out prominently how strongly he is against Keyblade Wielders fighting each other in the update about PvP, practically the only instance where Ven acts any assertive at all.

It serves to show how he's truly an "innocent lamb" without any true malice yet due to his less than stellar psychological fortitude susceptible to being used.

How old is he again here? Twelve? It looks really like Ven never had true good parental figures for long enough to develop proper social skills and most of all some confidence in himself.

These events however do explain why Xehanort utterly failed to get Ven to embrace and use darkness. Even if he didn't remember it in detail anymore when being with Xehanort the trauma of being used by someone and forced to watch a murder certainly impacted Ven's psyche so much that him staunchly refusing to use or channel anything dark-related makes sense.

As per usual, this update has left my mind buzzing. Knowing darkness has no fleshy form in this current moment is intriguing. To me it seems like whatever previous war ripped this character from their body and they are just barely getting by, plotting their revenge/survival in the shadows.

But the MoM seer abilities are leading me to believe that the actions of darkness are still part of his grand plan.

No actually, I believe the person darkness was intent on carrying her memory must have been the player character. Think about, in the scene where Maleficent is about to leave the data world, Darkness insist that she hurry, but she decides to pause for a moment allowing Lauriam to encounter her. Darkness didn't want Lauriam to remember her, but the fates design had a different course set. The only other character to get ample time with Maleficent was the player when battling her in Enchanted Dominion, and as we know, the player character has somehow formed a connection to Xehanort in Dark Road. And now during Xehanorts world tour he is hunting down what appears to be darkness.

So somehow the player character lives on through Xehanort, and now Xehanort is becoming obsessed with defeating the darkness eventually leading him to reenact the Keyblade War which is all part of who's plan? The MoM.

Meaning that everything Darkness is doing is being done directly to ensure the MoM plan is seen through. This would make even more sense if Ava was darkness because she is "carrying out her role" for the grand plan.

I'm actually kind of happy to see I interpreted the machine correctly, though it turns out that'll be used for both leaving the Data World and time travel.

Ven being possessed and used by Darkness makes the most sense for how Strelitzia's death was to play out. Especially after the information we got from Re:Mind. Leading up to this update, I was pretty much thinking it was either going to be Darkness or Gula who did the deed.

By how update ended I think this'll just lead to the scene, that Ven recalled about being chosen as a Union Leader. I think it's too early to say, if Ava is Darkness or it just took her form.

I'm kind of curious as to how Ven factors into MoM's plans it's obvious he knew that Ven would take a spot among the Union Leaders and end up in the future, seeing he witnessed it all through the gazing eye. Is this all part of his plan?

In regards to Ava, maybe it is time to remember the deadly sin she's named after: Greed.

Maybe one group of Dandelions is not enough. There have to be multiple groups of them in each worldline and every generation.
And it is Ava's job to find them, bring them somehow together by playing "fate/destiny" and then prepare an ordeal for them to face.
This includes each group of "new" Dandelions getting confronted by a form of darkness in some horrible and trying events to "weed out the weak" and conserve the ones strong enough who withstood the incarnation of Darkness and those then are "sent off" to the next world incarnation.

Edit: Thinking more about it, maybe that's what the actual Keyblade War is! Each Keyblade "War" we get to see (the one in Browser Chi, the one in the finale of KH III etc.) is in truth one of multiple Keyblade "Battles" fought in the wider war but those participating don't know it is just one battle in a wider war, one fought across universes, world- and timelines, with only "Darkness" and the MoM seeing the whole "battlefield" and plotting entire war campaigns with everyone we know so far, including Xehanort and the Foretellers being just pawns in different theatres of war.

So far we know three, possibly four groups of "Dandelions", the ones from UX including Ephemer, Skuld, Ven, Blaine, Lauriam and Elrena; Xehanort, Eraqus and their group from Dark Road; Sora and his associated group (which includes Ven again) and finally possibly Yozora and all characters associated with him.

In each "scenario" Darkness hides and/or uses one of the Dandelions present as "main evil" (in Sora's scenario: Xehanort) and some others fall to Darkness as well in the process (like Elrena and Lauriam in Sora's scenario) but some may be saved and rejoin as allies again later.

Spockanort's mention of Areshia-al-Rashia from FF Type-0 made me also think that we might have a similar "many cycles" scenario at hand here too but with each repetition new actors are added, possibly in order to build up an army of beings who are all strong enough to resist Darkness long enough to use something to either defeat it for good or at least make it no longer a threat.

Luxu (or the MoM) and Ava can with a little creativity also seen as a parallel to Gala and Areshia.

Okay, there is a LOT to unpack here this time!

I agree with you here. I don't think Darkness is necessarily the whole "element" itself, but more so a materialization of conscience through it. Sorta like how we have the Princesses of Heart, beings with a heart made of pure Light, and then Ventus and Vanitas later on as artificial pure Light and Dark, respectively.
Wheter they are a whole new character or materialization of the Darkness from a bunch of characters is yet to see, but I don't think this is a Vanitas case.


It doesn't in the slightest. A incarnation of Darkness having a will of it's own doesn't change anything about Riku. Plus, he's also the first character we know for sure that has control over his own Darkness, so I doubt this character could have possessed him either way. lol



Not really. Both Xehanort and Eraqus seem to have memories of the UX time, and it's not limited to the player character alone.


@ thread

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Ava is Darkness, althought I don't think that is really the case. MoM made it pretty clear that with his talk about a lifetime that we could be experiencing more than what we assume;

I feel like we could be experiencing a second timeline. That at some point the story flowed in such ways that the MoM never left his students, the Keyblade War happened another way with more casualities, with a lost character that ended up becoming Darkness. That person could either be another Student of his or maybe another Master.

Then the MoM traveled back in time and made a plan to change everything to another path for whatever reason, which is why he is so keen on following such a specific plan, with all the planning ahead, the eye of the beholder and so on.

I think that one theory that Darkness is a part of the MoM that was left behind could be tied to this, somehow.

In the end, Sora is not the MoM like some theorize, but he could be a parallel to him as another character who went back in time to alter the flow of destiny.

I wouldn't be surprised if the plottwist of Dark Road is that Xehanort would end up doing the same thing, only for his classmates to still be lost in the end, causing him to go down the path of Darkness until he becomes the disgusting bald man we all hate.

You know, if Darkness is still in Ventus's heart I wonder how that is going to effect the present day? I suddenly have a suspicious feeling if they are still in the Dark Realm, Ventus might be used to knock out Terra and Aqua and strand them there. Not really a original idea because again, Aqua has a villa home in RoD but it'll be interesting to see what this means for the future for Ventus.

As far as the Master of Masters and Darkness and who is the real bad guy, I say both. You don't have to start off as a antagonist to become one. I have a feeling even if they start portraying the Master of Master's as something of a guy with good intentions, there will be more to it then that. With this war against Darkness I wonder if this will bring the light robes that we saw Strelitizia in, into play? I still see MoM as a endgame antagonist, but it'll be interesting if they go the good guy route first. Cause Xehanort and the Organization sure didn't even attempt to do that to fool the heroes, lol.

I've been thinking of this being a possibility ever since we had Re:Mind have him keep saying "You too" to Sora and then Dark Road started with a flash forward hinting at all his classmates meeting an untimely end.

See, now this is so entirely my shit that I'm going to be really disappointed if this isn't true. Though obviously that scene where MoM talked about his past suggests so many huge things that it has to go SOMEWHERE interesting like this. (Right?)

Maybe some day I should make a thread explaining how Nomura seems to borrow from the Kill the Past series, which has similar themes.

I think [USER=89012]Sephiroth0812[/USER] and Spockanort ideas of how the series' plot will develop is interesting. This could pretty much be Nomura creating his own Avengers, meaning that KH3 wasn't Endgame, but rather Endgame Part I. I also have an idea that each Worldline has his own Sora and what the MoM is doing is weeding out every Worldline's Sora and make a sort of Power Rangers/Worldline Warriors team in order to get rid of darkness.

This is possibly how the MoM intends to get rid of Darkness forever: have various TRUE Guardians of Light fight the Darkness and end it forever.

Well it would make sense for Darkness to creep out in the RoD since he would naturally be stronger in his element.

Though I don't think he would be able to trap Terra and Aqua since they should have the means to come and go this time.

I think your interpretation is the other extreme honestly. We know MoM did awful things but Darkness is no different with killing Strelitzia and using Ven to cover it up.

That is LITERALLY the plot of Dissidia Final Fantasy, though. More specifically Duodecim and the Gacha game (which is really good, by the way).

.. Not that I don't see it happening, but to have the entire KH work as a setup for that.. I'm not sure if I like it. lol

That's not "no different". Killing someone is bad but hardly equivalent to destroying the whole world and manipulating countless people into killing eachother, never mind his emotional abuse of the foretellers who looked up to him.

I think I have figured out the clock. It appears to be a red herring.

First, the talk about 6:00 was me misinterpreting the tail end of the minute hand as being the hour hand. You can ignore that.

Strelitzia said that she would wake up early and wait for the player at the fountain. She was doing that when her Chirithy told her that the player had been seen at the building. The player and Skuld had left even earlier to look for Gula. So, the whole thing must have happened early in the morning.

The tower seems to have (at least) two clock faces, presumably one on each side. On most (perhaps all) scenes in the game, the clock shows 6:25. It must have stopped at that time (really, it is the developers being lazy and always using the same image). Exception is the scene where the war starts, there the clock moves from 11:59 to 12:00, causing the bells to ring. This must be the other face. But the bells ringing is not normal, since Gula immediately understands the war has started. And the time actually being 12:00 does not make sense, because it is supposed to be early in the morning, so this clock does not work properly either. I think it too had stopped, and the keyblade strike was just pushed it forward by one minute.

I'm am like 90% certain sending TAV into the realm of darkness is specifically so Nomura could torment them with their own inner darkness because now all three have something inside of them.

Xehanort is gone but Terra still lived with Terranort as a thing for years, his dark memories of his time connected to Xehanort can easily manifest in the RoD as a mirage of Terranort. Aqua has her whole anti-Aqua thing she still hasn't in any capacity properly dealt with, we've seen first hand the trauma Aqua suffered is still in there and still able to cripple her. Ventus has "Darkness" inside him whoever or whatever it is not to mention Vanitas. If anything the RoD is the last place those three should be going together and we all know how evil Nomura is.

CoM: My name is Riku and I'm still struggling with the darkness in me but I'll make my way to the light and Mickey will be by my side.
Days/KH2: My name is Ansem (Riku), everything sucks, I failed against my struggle, I isolated myself from my friends, I will live in darkness forever.

Coded: I'm data Namine these memories inside of Sora are dangerous so I had to test him and make sure Sora be okay otherwise they could break his heart and cause him to fall into darkness, but you've proven Sora will be fine.
DDD: My name is Sora and Xehanort used the memories inside me to screw with my head and make me fall into darkness, Riku saved me but I lost a bunch of stuff in the process.

0.2: I am Master Aqua and after all these horrible troubles I've faced I'm traumatized but I won't fall, I'll keep moving on and be the light in the darkness to guide and help the next person who falls into here.
KH3: Hi Aqua I'm Xehanort allow me to force all your repressed trauma to the surface against your will so you fall to darkness and become a villain who tries to murder everyone out of bitterness, don't worry you'll be saved eventually though.

So when Riku worries about Aqua going back to the realm of darkness and she smiles telling us it will all be okay because she won't be alone this time....I'd trust that statement about as much as I'd trust Larxene with a journal containing my fears.

This, killing a person is a bad thing but it's not even remotely on a comparable level to what the MoM has done.

And putting Ven through a murder is no emotional abuse or what? We know a lot less about Darkness than about the MoM. Maybe it killed thousands of people too and destroyed whole worlds, who knows? Maybe that's the reason the MoM wants it gone not because he can't accept the world changed. That part is pure speculation.

If anything Darkness proves that darkness is no passive force that is simply manipulated by power hungry individuals to further their goals. So it's probably not a matter of accepting the world as it but instead a struggle beween contradicting forces that is still going on.

I disagree. The "manipulation" MoM did, or rather the lack of intervention, is not evil in itself. He set the rules and they refused to do any thinking for themselves. It's no different from IRL Christians, Jews, Islams taking their holy book and twisting it to sectarian fights and wars amongst themselves.

Anyone who views the Master's teachings with a critical eye would know to observe, watch, observe and act only whena bsolutely necessary. But the Clown Squad and all the kids therein chose an early demise

It's an awful thing to do, but my key point here is that the Master of Masters was in a position of power over the foretellers. He took advantage of his position as their master and the trust they had in him to manipulate them. It's a very "real" form of abuse. Darkness on the other hand just does what he wants to do directly. It's cruel, but not in service of his own ego or to gain power over others. Although if Darkness is Ava this changes things quite a bit.

To be honest I am still on the impression that Gula is involved somehow although I don't have a tangible theory yet on how.
I do have a hunch that Gula and Ven might be connected somehow, perhaps another sibling pair with Gula being the older brother?
A bit farfetched at the moment I know, yet I recently re-watched Back Cover and noticed Gula's pants under his robes:
[ATTACH type="full"]12954[/ATTACH]
They do look a little similar to Ven's and after now writing about Ven's self-esteem issues and his diffident outlock I realized that this could come as well from a) Gula and Ven being on their own and thus Gula technically being Ven's Guardian, b) Ven often left to himself because Gula is busy with Foreteller stuff, the Lost Page and similar stuff and c) being exposed to Gula's increasingly erratic and despairing behavior including the whole "Trust only yourself"-stuff. Ventus is a 12year old kid who is shown to on the inside wanting to have friends and be social, the exact opposite of what Gula is. If Ven gets increasingly exposed to Gula's rather toxic viewpoints in the rare cases he's around he would certainly start to doubt himself and be "a loner" because that's what his big brother is too and despite himself not liking it, it is the closest role model he has.

But that goes obviously somewhat more into psychological analysis rather than any true story hints.

As for Ven's factoring into MoMs plans it might have to do with the whole "too pure" and "too kind"-attributes that are so often mentioned in regards to Ven.
Blaine and Xehanort mention it, "Darkness" does in Re: Mind and if I recall correctly both Skuld and Lauriam also comment in some UX story updates about these traits.
It also seems that despite suffering so often and so much Ven still finds it inside himself to not give up or into despair throughout any of his appearances so despite it all his heart is pretty strong and has some strong will and inner resilience.

Who knows, all the gathered Lux in Browser-Chi must have ended up somewhere and Gula did want to summon KH. Maybe that failed but in order to preserve all that Lux he transferred it into Ven's heart?
Maybe all that Lux was also used by Darkness to conceal itself within Ven and then there is of course also still the issue of Xehanort seeing Ven as good material to try and use a shortcut to get the X-blade.


It's right now a shot into the blue without any real hints or story beats to add credence to it, but I think the main scenario could eventually expand into this or something similar.
A war is never just one single battle, that would be either just a battle or a skirmish. A war is a series of battles that can involve different armies, theatres(locations) and even times so the frame would fit even if it would be a war expanded to involve more than worlds but entire worldlines or universes.



Certainly one possibility, although there are several on how the actual "erasing" of Darkness could ultimately unfold. MoM states it involves lots of preparation but that too can have several different meanings.
For example, even the creation of entire new beings not by biological birth like Roxas, Xion and Naminé could be part of those preparations.



Right now, even without knowing more about what else Darkness did I'd advise to be cautious about both of them. It is possible that they're both more on the awful side and I do not think that playing "who is the worst"-olympics will help anything and I doubt Sora & co would join either of them based on who of them caused less trauma and pain.

As much as I dread it, I'd say that even teaming up with Xehanort in the future might be the lesser evil instead of choosing either the MoM or "Darkness".



It's not only "killing someone" but also using and abusing Ven in several ways just like Xehanort did and as ShardofTruth pointed out we don't know what else possible atrocities and other heinous actions "Darkness" may have pulled elsewhere on other characters, worlds and possibly even worldlines.
The MoM is definitely in shady territory so it might be an "evil vs evil" situation or a "this universe's gods are jerkasses"-variant so that Sora, Ven and the others need to actually defeat/vanquish both the MoM and Darkness or these beings might simply operate on an entirely different scale of "morality" or what is actually "good and evil".

The fact that hearts and memories are immortal and with a bit of effort a being can be completely restored/reconstructed might also lower inhibitions in-universe quite some bit, regardless of the trauma and possibly lasting mental damage caused.
The latter two are frankly also all too often even ignored, belittled or even mocked in our own world often enough.

Eh not to get off topic but that is a massive and somewhat misleading oversimplification of scriptural history and interpretation.

Anyway frankly I still don't think we know enough about what the hell is going on to firmly judge the Master yet. Because despite the cheeky meta cutscene between him and Luxu, it wasn't the fans who overcomplicated things.

Well, in theory we have both Daybreak Town and the Keyblade Graveyard as locations, but what the Graveyard actually is is pretty unclear, since Daybreak turned into Scala instead of KG. I know it's been speculated that the KG is actually a remnant of a different "Keyblade War" but we do see Luxu watching it in 0.2, so even the main "Keyblade War" we know of we're missing some pieces.

This actually makes a lot of sense and such a nomura thing to do.

Well we don't know that for sure with Eraqus. Yes they both said that thing that one time but that doesn't automatically mean Eraqus is having the same dreams and experiences Xehanort has been show to have. It is clear to see that Xehanort went to Wonderland in search of Darkness and from his conversation with the MoM it seems that seeing this darkness in the worlds is what led him to the conclusion that he needed to fix everything. The MoM agreed with his sentiment further pushing him towards thats goal.

My main point being that so far nothing darkness has done seems to directly or indirectly interfere with the MoM plan. From the secret reports in KH3 we know not even Luxu knows who this darkness is.

It is possible that Darkness is somehow being manipulated by the MoM but is trying to work against him but the questions still stands. Why get rid of Strelitzia? Why place Ventus among the leaders? Why stay in this boys heart all this time afterwards?

This is unproven. Daybreak Town turning into Scala is purely a theory so far based on the fight in KH3 which, for all we know, happened inside Xehanort's heart, so it's not the true Scala. The town being underwater on the underside of the city could just be because of Xehanort's memories of that time, for all we know.
While there is basis to consider that to be the case, we have yet to see what really happened. Besides, UX happens before the worlds were split according to Kairi's Grandma backstory, so the Keyblade Graveyard could just be another part of Daybreak, really.




Even if Eraqus doesn't have the memories of that time as well, it was show that Xehanort remembers the Union Masters as well, while player was nowhere to be seen in that scene. So his connection is not with the Player itself, but with that era as whole, it seems.

There is a puppet theater like machine in Re:Mind that shows Daybreak turning into Scala and I'm like 52% certain Nomura even confirmed that Scala is modern day Daybreak town, this is not a theory.

IIRC, the theater machine only shows the town rotating from Daybreak to Scala, which could just signify the home of the Keyblade Masters changing; That is, unless Nomura did confirm it somewhere.

It's not that I necessarily disagree with that possibility, I just don't recall it being canon anywhere in the games and I admit I don't keep track 100% with all of Nomura's interviews, but unless he made it pretty clear I'd rather not take only those hints as canon, seeing as currently we consider Scala and Land of Departure as different worlds as well.

Scala is pretty confirmed to be the ruins of Daybreak Town. I too remember Nomura briefly mentioning it. Even with "death of the author", there's the mural in Scala depicting "broken" Daybreak Town turning into Scala PLUS the fight in KH3 with the ruined tower under the water (which again, is exactly what the mural was depicting)

I must be honest, I'm a little bothered that people watched this cutscene and still believe Ven pulled the trigger/is evil and killed Strelitzia. How much more obvious could it be that not only was he controlled, but it seems he didn't even lift a finger or do anything to Strelitzia at all, he was just there to witness it?

I believe Darkness is Vanitas, just with whatever little darkness Ven had influencing it. Vanitas did actually say in Remind that he was different from Ven, and when Sora dived into Ven's Heart which reabsorbed Vanitas in the end of BBS (the Vanitas we have in KH3 is following the time travel rules like everyone else) he found "Darkness" That apparently didn't want him in Ven's heart there. Updates like this only strengthen that theory.

I wouldn't say Racism at all. Unlike racism Darkness is something within (mostly) everybody and people under it's influence continuously do horrible and evil things. This isn't to say that it can't be used for good, but there is a real and present danger associated with Darkness which is why people like Eraqus who have a great fear of Darkness aren't entirely wrong. Though his fear was partially because of already having a friend fall to Darkness before. I think you could say it's like having a gun. Anyone can have a gun. You can use the gun for good or ill, but people will obviously distance themselves from people who have it, and some will even disdain the wielder.

Oy vey, that's a lot to unpack and reply to. So I'll just ramble on without quoting.

Scala ad Caelum is Daybreak Town, the Ultimania, the tower, and that thing in Breezy Quarter says it, not to mention the manhole cover that literally spells DAYBREAK. Speaking of, has anybody decoded the rest of the script yet?

Someone finally said it! How fights between 20 people count as a war confuse the heck out of me. They're battles at best. The only way it would've become a full-blown war is if Sora didn't use the Power of Waking, and continued on that first scenario where they all died and all the remaining wielders in hiding came out of the woodwork to the Graveyard to see what's going on.

I'm just gonna say it, though I think a lot of people already know it. That ark in Radiant Garden/Hollow Bastion was most likely not the original thing. It's probably a reconstruction by the apprentices using Subject X's memory as a blueprint.

Clocktower says 6:00.

Strelitizia may have been searching awhile already before her Chirithy told her to check the empty house.

I don't know how young Ven is at this time. He could easily be ten or less for all we know. Wielders could be as young as four or something. That's a lot of child soldiers. I wouldn't say he's innocent though. At the very least, he IS an accessory.

This makes me curious though, what does a worldline look like if the war didn't happen. We know that the report says that peace is still just a dream, but how would that be known for sure? I'm calling it now, the world that has Shibuya in it is probably such a worldline, where the war didn't happen, but something else just as dangerous, if not more so, is going on.

I mean, this is the same fandom that still treats Roxas, Namine, and Xion as Nobodies/artificial beings/lol Sortas despite the fact that all three of them were basically their own persons from the start so I'm not surprised that people would die on the "Ven killed Strelly" hill.

Some people are just intentionally obtuse, yet they'll bitch about how this story is convoluted and up its own ass.

Does dark chirithy only appear if someone is totally consumed by darkness? If someone is just possesed, their Chirithy wont become dark? And when I relook at the scene, I become not sure if the darkness is behind Ventus or possesing Ven. When it attacks Strelitizia, it seems like that the darkness is behind Ven and Ven just seems to be hypnotized

It's strange to think of it being possible to defeat the darkness, and there being a personifcation of darkness when Dark Road is pushing the idea that 'darkness lurks in the pit of everyone's hearts'. I'm interested to see how this Darkness and the MoM's plan relate to the darkness in people's hearts.

Well, at least we know it is an incorporeal thing, and obviously has been around for a very long time, and can take on the form of humans and possibly monsters, not to mention possess people.

This is really interesting and It makes me think about how Xehanort is described as a 'scapegoat'. In the Bible, the scapegoat was a goat that took on all the sins of the Israelites so maybe Xehanort was supposed to take on the world's darkness.

I can't wait to see more of Luxu in UX because one thing that still really bugs me is how little Xigbar apparently cares about Ventus in the present day. I think it's possible that he doesn't know about the darkness inside Ven from Re Mind so if the MoM manages to create a world free of darkness and Ven is in it then there could be a problem.

There can be dozens of locations we don't yet know of. There is also the possibility that some worlds, including the Keyblade Graveyard, exist in every possible worldline but due to being wastelands the audience can't really get a visual clue which Keyblade Graveyard is shown right now or the KG is a sort of hub connected to multiple worldlines just like Daybreak/Scala.


Yea, we haven't yet seen how the great battle in Browser-Chi actually ended, what each of the Foretellers took in terms of actions and what happened to all the Lux collected.


The current update is just the start of the final chapter so Daybreak getting ruined is still up the alley, or rather, maybe the "real" Daybreak already is in ruins from the events of the original browser chi and we just didn't see it yet because we were always only privy to the simulation.

It is clearly seen that Darkness is hovering behind Ventus the entire time and that his eyes are glazed over like in trance. In fact it reminds me somewhat of both how in Coded the data bugs and/or Pete were controlling Data-Riku and the flashbacks in BBS when Xehanort brings Ven to Land of Departure while his heart is still damaged. He's limply following Xehanort there which is not much different to what happens here, only with Darkness in Xehanort's role.

It is also worth pointing out that Darkness did not use Ven's body like a puppet to perform the killing blow but that it soared forward from behind over Ven like a snake lashing out.
In Re:Mind, Darkness states to Sora that Ventus is "too pure" and should be left alone (it literally says "leave him be"), he wouldn't be that anymore if he actually had innocent blood on his hands so maybe that's why Darkness did the deed by itself.

As to why it brought Ven along it could be because of urgency, as Darkness immediately shapeshifts into Ava to perform the whole making Ven a leader charade.
The only action Ventus himself did beyond following Darkness around was picking up the rulebook.
But like Sign said, some people just want to stick with their headcanons and refuse to acknowledge actual canon.
It doesn't really surprise me during a time/era where some people even refuse to acknowledge actual reality in real life.

The much more unsettling thing however is that eventually we would have to re-examine Back Cover and the original browser-chi to check every instance any of the Foretellers appear as at any time one of them might actually be Darkness using its shapeshifting powers.
If Darkness isn't Ava herself, of course.
It makes me wonder if the Coaty Ephemer met in Browser Chi while sneaking into the Foreteller's tower was actually Darkness and not Luxu or the MoM?




Exactly, that's something I and some others have been stating for years.
Being wary of Darkness (the element) and approaching it with caution as well as rejecting and battling instances where it causes such massive harm is not any form of racism.

There seems to be this misconception that Darkness and Light must be treated and handled completely equal and the same which is an invitation to disaster since by now it has been made clear that the element Darkness has many more dangerous properties which can cause more damage easier than Light does.

The element being part of the natural order and impossible to completely eradicate does not mean it can just be treated as any other element. Dangerous things do have to be kept in check and fenced in far enough to minimize damage.
This is actually exactly what Ansem SoD criticizes Riku for in DDD:

Of course Ansem wants Riku to "set the Darkness free" again in order to "save" Sora but he has nothing of that and instead tells Ansem he'll "consume the Darkness, return it to light".



As far as I remember the [Player] never was consumed by Darkness yet their Dark Chirithy did manifest and in fact acted largely independent from [Player] and even their normal Chirithy. [Players] normal Chirithy was still around and even bickering with the dark one.


In Back Cover, the MoM did say that Chirithys can turn dark, but [Player] actually has two Chirithys.
The question here would be if every Keyblade Kid/wielder can have two Chirithys or if [Player] is a special case.

We do not even know yet if there is just one or multiple Dark Chirithys around, yet the one belonging to [Player] did say they would meet again so it is definitely still around in some form.




"Defeat" does not necessarily have to mean total eradication but can also point towards a status where the darkness cannot get a hold on hearts and people anymore so the constant horrible things done by/with it can stop.
Riku's statement of "consuming Darkness, returning it to light" from DDD might possibly be a hint towards the correct way.

It is also still probable that this being which calls itself "Darkness" is not a personification of the natural element darkness itself. Ansem after all wasn't Ansem at all.
The character "Darkness" may actually have a true name and just uses this one as a title/pseudonym.



It is a bit wonky though since most of the darkness and the damage we get to see in the series does not come from the worlds but Xehanort himself.
Xehanort is the one who throws everything out of whack and who causes more than 90% of the current traumas and pain, either directly by himself or indirectly by manipulating others like Maleficent. Much of the chaos Maleficent causes like i.e. invading Radiant Garden one year after BBS was only possible because of initial information Xehanort gave her.

Xehanort is indeed called a scapegoat, but I am not sure that we know yet for what exactly.
Regardless of this though, every heinous thing Xehanort committed of his own free will without being controlled/possessed is something he's personally guilty for since he had the power and free will to chose not committing said deeds.

This is not only Luxu but a general thing with KH III because it is again a Sora-show. There's also no reaction or anything in regards to or from Ven when it comes to the Light from the past and Ephemer appearing to Sora instead of him.

We do know that Luxu/Xigbar has something with Ven though as apart from KH III he does often get reminded and comments on the "Angry look" and in 358/2 Days he sees Xion as Ventus while stating as much in the secret reports.
In KH2FM it's also him who starts talking about the "other chamber" which contains Ven's body and soul and he does seem to have a sort of interest in both Roxas and Sora who each are closely connected to Ven.

Well, if it is true that Gula is Ven's brother , it may explain why Ven is resistant to cold while Skuld is saying she is not good with the cold
And I think just like Gula and Ven, Skuld and Ava may also be siblings because I always wonder why in one of the magazine, it is specifically stated that Skuld gives similar vibes to Ava but yeah it is just a far-fetched theory



Is it confirmed Dark Chirithy is Players or is it just implied?

Dark Chiritihy says it explicitly during its final confrontation with Player before the Keyblade War

Oh ok
That makes me wonder where is Ven's Chirithy this whole time?

So, does anyone want to grab that phone?
Because I fucking called it!


Don't lump me in with you. My prediction was accurate.

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"Congratulations!"

You're overthinking this. You've gone off and over-complicated things to reach your own conclusion, only to rile yourself up over this theory as if it's the answer. Or perhaps it's because you've convinced yourself that anything you don't understand must have no answer.

Wow, it's like Nomura is subtly speaking to THOSE kinds of fans through the MoM. I love it.

After that conversation between MoM and Luxu, I'm low-key expecting the Blackbox to open by itself and reveal that the MoM has been sleeping all these years.

Great points. I think there's more to MoM other than being a complete psychopath, but I agree he is going to the extremes for a misguided goal when a mindset of Sora or Riku is the proper way of thinking. One of my main issues recently with the overall narrative of Kingdom Hearts is that the concept of darkness not being inherently evil and is actually needed in the world has been sorta absent for a while now. This was a huge focal point in Riku's story in COM and referenced a bit in KH2 and Birth by Sleep, but never really reached fruition. So, I hope the next saga really explores that concept again in full force.

I think the MoM saw darkness at its absolute worst and most destructive at the start of Keyblade War, which scarred him to the point that he created a coat to protect himself and refused to ever take off and embark on plans to destroy the darkness altogether. Meanwhile, there is some form of darkness with more malicious intentions and its own schemes. Like the MoM, I think there's more to this entity than simply being darkness. If we think of the chess metaphor, the whole series has really been between MoM and darkness with pawns in the middle. If MoM is some misguided form of light, then it's even more fitting; light vs. darkness.

I think Sora is stuck in the middle of these forces with other scapegoats being used (Xehanort and Maleficent, etc.) which makes me think perhaps that's where Sora's chess piece lands in KH3's ending; right in between these two forces. You have the MoM and his foretellers wanting to destroy darkness altogether, while darkness may seek to blot out the light for good, and then you have Sora who understands that neither can exist without the other. Even Xehanort knew this, but his methods were just too destructive to go unchecked. Both forces can be used in destructive ways and that's what I think the foundation of the series essentially is; people misusing both darkness and light for their own personal gain or because of a misguided philosophy.

I hope not. If the hope that was inside the box turned out to be a sleeping megalomaniac, I’d rather just throw myself into the bottom of the Caribbean.

The only problem with that though was that he was seen some 70+ years ago talking to YX, so he seems to be moving about with complete autonomy. Luxu seems really eager to bring him back though, although I don’t know why since the man seems to come and go as he pleases. Bring him back from where? What on earth is he doing?

I said that the machine's multi-function nature is somewhat interesting. This is because it can be used to explain both the non-existence and reappearance of the box; Maleficent's knowledge about it and behavior in KH3; and also some of the Yozora stuff. This is speculative, but connects well.

We know there is one of the machines in Radiant Garden. It was probably recovered from the upside down Daybreak Town and rebuilt in Scala ad Caelum. Then, the Keyblade HQ was moved from Scala to RG at some time betweed Dark Road and BBS, and the machine was brought there too. So far, seems obvious.

Also in RG at the time of BBS was Luxu. This means, if the box still existed at that time, it must have been there too, since part Luxu's role is to keep it safe. When Xehanort took over, Luxu prevented him from getting Subject X in his hands, probably by using the machine to send her back to data worlds. Now, my theory is, after doing that he turned the machine to time travel mode, put the box in, and launched it to the future.

Later, Maleficent took control of RG, and found the machine and some evidence about the box having been there. She didn't think it was important, because she didn't understand anything about it. But then she time traveled to the UX timeline and learned about the box and its contents there. She started looking for it, assuming that the machine had been used in world travel mode. But when she didn't find it, she concluded that it had been send to the future.

MoM also had the option to use the machine for sending the box where he wanted it. This seems like a smart thing to do, because it would have bypassed Luxu's role and made the plan simpler. But he didn't use it. This suggest doing so can have unwanted consequences for the contents of the box, and indeed we seem to have a mess: Ephemer has been transformed into Yozora, similarly the Player to Luxord, Skuld is in the final world, and possibly quite a few other Dandelions have ended up there as well (the large group of stars in Melody of Memory trailer).

Since according to this theory the box disappeared into a future date, I suggest we call it The Date Escape Theory. :LOL:

With this update I’m starting to think the black box is some sort of super weapon. Like an atomic bomb of light. Luxu was tasked with guarding it for centuries and to observe the battles of the keyblade war. The box is said to contain “hope”. And now the MoM says his plan would take several lifetimes to prepare, most likely meaning that something needed time to generate or grow. What if the box has been slowly seeping light from kingdom hearts or the realm during each battle between wielders? Or what if the dandelions are in the box and have been generating more lux that the box has been harnessing for this exact purpose? The Master told Luxu he can’t ever open it. Probably because opening it would trigger the explosion of light meant to wipe out the darkness once and for all.

The machine only has a singular function which varies depending the state of its completion. The completed version is meant to be used to travel to other worlds, but an incomplete version can achieve time travel.

I would assume that a complete machine can also be used like an incomplete one. The opposite obviously isn't true. We don't know for sure if the machine in RG is complete or not, but it has been suggested that Xehanort used it to launch Kairi into space, which I believe would mean it is complete.

This reminds me of the scene early on in KH2 when Yen Did is explaining to SDG about why the Heartless weren't wiped out at the end of KH1. That darkness lives in every heart and do long as there's even a tiny bit of darkness somewhere the Heartless won't go away.

Then Goofy brings up the point that maybe if every heart was "filled with light", the Heartless could be eradicated once and for all. Then that concept is never brought back again.

I suspect that whatever plan Xehanort had in store with Kairi is something that will be used in the near future by the MoM.

Possibly. I think I suggested months or a year ago that, perhaps, the Black Box is meant to store Kingdom Hearts every time it's summoned. If one Kingdom Hearts is powerful, imagine a box full of them.

I may be misunderstanding it, but the way darkness described the machine, it seemed like the time travel itself was more of an accidental feature because the machine was only currently capable of transporting hearts, not bodies. A fully functional machine can be assumed to be able to transport both a heart and a body, which would remove the time travel feature entirely.

I'm also thinking the whole Ven Murder thing is just something similar to what happened in BBS when Maleficent used darkness to control Terra. Ven was possessed, but it was darkness doing everything, so Ven had no control over anything that happened and isn't actually responsible for Strelitzia's death even if he was used to kill her. Whether Ven was used to kill her or not, he was more of a weapon than a participant.

Also re: Dark Chirithy
Pretty sure it implies that everyone with a guilt bracelet has a dark chirithy because the bracelets were harvesting the power of darkness. Elrena's Chirithy being a Dark Chirithy working with darkness could explain how Strelitzia's death was set up.

Why would an incomplete version be capable of time travel but the complete version NOT be able to do so? Surely a "defect" or "unintended consequence" would be HELD OVER from previous iterations, not discarded in favor of a lesser function?

After all, traveling to other worlds is something any generic Keyblader can do.

Quoting zander since he explains it well:

^ I see that and acknowledge it. However, surely the Keybladers of that time also understood of methods of time travel? MALEFICENT may not have been in the know due to being a Disney villain, but these child soldiers must have known of different methods they could have used. Forbidden, perhaps, but still aware of them.

I mean, you could argue it's possible that some smart eggs started to suspect something and do some digging like what Ephemer did with the Book of Prophecies, but there's been nothing to imply that time travel is just common knowledge in this era.

So Ava is Darkness? Why would she help Maleficent? Also, I'm wondering if there was ever any scene between Marluxia/Roxas that may have some new subtext thanks to Ven's murder of Streletizia?

I need more clarification ugh.

No, it's not Ava.

Also, I'm wondering if there was ever any scene between Marluxia/Roxas that may have some new subtext thanks to Ven's murder of Streletizia? I need more clarification ugh.

Doubt it. Neither of them have access to the relevant memories, and they only shared a few lines of dialogue before Marluxia left for Castle Oblivion anyway.

There is one more thing that bothers me is why Ava gives the book to Strelitzia near the tower not on the hill?
From this update, it looks like Ven's memory has been altered so that he has Strelitizia's memory because in previous update he remembers he did the same thing as Strelitizia

Aha... I knew there was something about the location in which Ven got his book. He said "near the tower", which yeah, is where Strelitzia got hers. Ava seems so consistent about where and when she hands off the books, why does Strelitzia seem so rushed?

Just to add to/back up what zander1995 said:

By going back and watching the Ark to the Future scene, I think it’s clear that the only reason time travel is possible with the incomplete ark is that it tears away one’s body, which allows the heart to travel through time since that isn’t possible with a physical form. So once completed to allow for safe transportation without ripping one’s body away, it would no longer be possible to use it for time travel.

Oh god....I didn't even think about it but maybe the MoM really WAS telling the truth that he's too scared to ever take his off. But not because he's afraid of the darkness but rather in order to eradicate darkness just like Xehanort he'll have to wipe out all the hearts with darkness in them. Maybe his plan won't even allow him to choose who gets wiped out just that if there is darkness POOF they're gone. If that's the case then the MoM's actual reason for the coat can be interpreted "I'm to scared of Oblivion to take off my coat, I have to keep myself pure so I won't be eradicated when I execute my plan".

With the chess game you make a good point but I think it's more than just Sora. We have the MoM and his Foretellers remnants of a time in which darkness was the ultimate evil that needed to be crushed at any cost. Then we have Darkness who comes from a time in which the light created it then fearing what it created tried to wipe it from existence and that's sowed a belief that the darkness will never be safe so long as light persists and thus it seeks to wipe out the light. But then you have Sora's group who has been forged in light and darkness.

Sora is a light who never goes out but isn't above tapping into the darkness and doesn't hate the darkness. Kairi is a strong light as pure as they come but she's never feared the dark, be it hugging heartless Sora or jumping headlong into a corridor of darkness Kairi is light but without a fear and hate of the dark despite having every reason to. Riku is a being who exists in perfect harmony of light and darkness, bringing out the best of both and showing everyone who meets him another way than extremes.

Roxas, Xion, and Namine are beings born belonging to neither dark nor light and are aligned with neither. They are born from darkness but live in the light, they belong to the dark but they are good people who live amongst those of the light with little issue. They are an in between existence and their two other members Axel and Saix while born as people of light, have lived most of their life as in between beings which makes them able to understand both. Neither fear light nor dark they cross an intermingle with both forces. Just as the Sun sets and brings the dark and the moon is the light that lights up the dark.

Terra, Aqua, and Ventus were raised in a very light stringent home but in the end they've all learned the folly of that. It left Terra with deep self loathing issues and anger he could not control. It left Aqua with serious repression issues unable to handle it when her heart started to crack. It left Ventus feeling burnt out on the whole light and dark thing in general and just wanting to be a person of his own choice. Each of them fought against their darkness but it never solved the issue, instead it was their fight against the dark rather than an acceptance and dealing with it that lead them all to their tragedies they needed to be saved from. Now though they leap headlong into the darkest most dangerous realm we know, the realm of darkness, with a smile and almost eagerness.

Our heroes show the full spectrum of bad, good, and the middle area between the two. The follies of light and darkness as well as their strength and potential of unity. They are products of the world where light and darkness co-exist, they don't know another existence other than this one. Which is ultimately why they are a rejection of extremes, they together can create a balanced world where light and dark exist in harmony.

Guys.

They wouldn't have gone to such lengths to distinguish that Ava gave the real foretellers their roles in the same area and Ven had a different experience if the second Ava wasn't an imposter. Darkness took Ava's shape, but Darkness is actually the base form of Vanitas.

I wouldn't say Darkness is the base form of Vanitas, so much as Darkness is part of Vanitas along with Ventus' darkness, mixed together to make a new person. Or at least that's my take.

I'm expecting there to be some form of twist that Darkness itself is the embodiment of all darkness in people's hearts, or becomes the darkness in everyone's hearts. Most likely thing I can see is Darkness using the new Union Leaders to summon Kingdom Hearts and using it to remake the universe, letting darkness into the hearts of people.

The old fairy tale says the World was plunged into darkness and the light in the hearts of children is what saved it, but that doesn't mean the darkness it was plunged into was the keyblade war at the end of Chi.

I'd feel more inclined to this take myself, but Vanitas says rather curtly "What I am is Darkness" and mentions that "We're not the same like you think, I was just hidden inside of you for a really long time."

Good point. But that the same time he has access to Ven's memories and up until Re:Mind always referred to himself as Ven's other/brother. So I just assumed that both is true he is Darkness and he is the other part of Ven's Heart.

I could see Darkness changing by taking Ven's darkness. Vanitas does something like that by taking his present appearance when Ven's heart connects with Sora's and he does say that Sora 'defines' him in the same way that Ventus does.

The only thing is that Sora encounters Darkness within Ventus' heart while Vanitas is outside. So Vanitas can't 1:1 = Darkness.

I've probably asked this question countless times before but I still can't make sense of it: Ven's heart connects with Sora's AFTER Vanitas is split from Ven, so Vanitas can't take on Sora's appearance from contact with him (like Roxas looks like Ven because Ven's hearts was inside Sora's when the heartless/nobody split happened), can he? How does that work, then?

Well, even when separated, Ventus and Vanitas do have a sort of pyschic connection, in a BBS report Xehanort says Vanitas can feel some of what Ventus feels. And I guess this connection also allows Vanitas to take on Sora's appearance when his heart connects with Ven's, unless anyone has a better answer.

Okay, that works :D



But isn't the KH3 Vanitas a time-travelled heart? If so, it's not impossible to have Vanitas inside and Vanitas outside.

I don't think Vanitas = Darkness 1:1 either, I just need different pieces of evidence?

She may have wanted to just get it done as fast as possible. She knew there wouldn't be much time before the war would start, and she couldn't do it earlier, because Strelitzia hadn't joined the Dandelions yet.


I like this idea. Something was clearly done to Ven's memory, because otherwise why didn't he remember the murder earlier? But false memories are supposed to be hard to create, Naminé was special because she was able to do it. An already existing memory from a different person would solve this issue. And then there are the foreign memories mentioned in Ven's character file. But I have to admit, I have a bias here, I want those to be Strelitzia's memories for reasons I have explained before in the shipping thread.

I wasn't sure since some of them aren't but apparently this is true. In which case this can make perfect sense. Though Darkness and Vanitas seem to talk totally different. I'd guess that when Darkness became Vanitas he took on elements of Ven's personality, and then went back to normal when he returned to inside of Ven.

But I still think it is strange that only Strelitizia got the book not on the hill. Well, we also don't know where Lauriam obtain the book and I wonder if he also got the book on the hill

I agree, it can have some meaning...


That is another item for the list of reasons why he doesn't belong. And I do want to see his reaction to being selected as one of the leaders, because I suspect it is quite different from the others.

It's possible that Darkness only blocked Ven from remembering what happened in there, and when they were about to come out took on the form of Ava. Then everything from that point onward happened, but Ava being there was only an illusion. Not memory changing per say, but blocking and subverting with more important memories. Ven remembered becoming a leader more than he did going into the house, and thus didn't have to think about that moment in detail until later. When he did, the truth was revealed to him.

I just want to mention that that conversation, and specifically that line, are effectively rewritten from the original Japanese.
In JP, it's a conversation about having the freedom to choose and not being trapped by "what" you are, Ventus telling Vanitas he didn't need to be evil just because he was a dark heart.
What Vanitas originally says is "this is how I chose to live."

That's the same thing as the ENG dub. Like...Ven says that they have the right to choose for themselves despite being sifted apart nice and neat. Ven is himself and Vanitas is himself, they aren't JUST light and darkness. Vanitas reaffirms that he did choose, and he chose to be darkness and all that entails. Ventus resigns himself, while SORA is the one that tries to fight against Van and Ven's resignation to their effectively predetermined roles.

Fellas just don't understand that Vanitas didn't say "I am Darkness (the character/entity)", and they are taking the ReMind cutscenes with the personality rewrite and Dark Inferno Chi way out of context

I was looking through my old posts and I suddenly saw something. Do you guys remember this? Think it has anything to do with what's going on with Ven?

What do you mean?

I think the colors on Ven's outfit is off. it's normally not checkered. I remember that was something brought up a few times when 0.2 was new.

The other interesting aspect to these characters is many of them wouldn't exist without Xehanort and his various forms or wouldn't even know how to use the Keyblade.

Perhaps that's what MoM wanted Xehanort to do. Draw out the next generation of Keyblade wielders so he can then attempt to recruit them to destroy darkness. As you pointed out, this in itself would spell disaster for the universe. But I think it would be interesting if some of the heroes were initially persuaded to join the MoM before realizing the guy is off his rocker.

Everything that MoM does almost seems to be a test to weed out who he feels are the perfect guardians of light. He doesn't seem to feel that traditional training is enough to forge warriors: they need to be born and tested via true conflict and tragedy. We can even go a step further and say MoM is doing this on multiple worldlines with Yozora being a prime candidate in his reality.

So, now I'm picturing the chess board with three sets of pieces. MoM and his Foretellers on one side, darkness and its legions on another, and in the middle Sora and his allies rebelling both diluted sides.

Probably reading too much into it. They’re illusions anyway that lead Aqua to somewhere. Maybe a trick of the RoD to get her to go deeper?

Ven’s status as an accessory or innocent aside (discounting the crime of stealing what shouldn’t be his even under outside influence), I’m more curious as to what the MoM is up to. He wants to defeat the darkness, but how? Going back to the reports, a worldline where the war didn’t happen still ended up undergoing some cataclysm. While in the current worldline (wherever and whenever that is since it seems a lot of people have been messing about with destiny, including Sora), he forced the hand of battle by writing down the book, which brought out projections of distant lands, encouraged the existence of the unions and the gathering of lux, not to mention the heartless that projected from said book even unto the Age of Prophecy when some worlds were still undergoing reconstruction, while also making a world of data to trap the kids in, and Maleficent too, manipulated the foretellers into distrusting each other until everyone was struggling to maintain the wrong balance and it all went to hell.

Darkness seems to know a lot about his plans for sure. How was it/she/whatever able to know even to the point where it knew that the seventh world of the princesses could not be projected to prevent Maleficent knowing more than she should? Then, why help her escape if it feared her gaining more knowledge? Was it just to shoo her away from the data world and the past?

Darkness wants to help Maleficent get back to the future so there is someone in the future who remembers them, which is necessary for Darkness and the other residents of the past to travel to the future themselves.

I agree with the notion that there were just some memories blocked rather than being changed or even replaced with other. Occam's Razor so to speak.
The heart is the seat of the memories and since Darkness seems to hide there them could have simply blocked some of Ven's memories. Now that Ven is actively trying to remember and Darkness no longer being present (as it is running around freely doing stuff) the memory can be accessed.
One thing I still find a bit suspicious is what exactly triggered the unblocking of the memories. In BBS Ventus had the headache-pain episodes of remembering something he formerly could not by both Master Xehanort (in the badlands) and Vanitas (on Destiny Islands) egging him on with some keywords. What was it this time? Brain's questions?

I dunno if it means something specific or if it was really just an oversight. We had this with Ventus-Vanitas' eyes being blue in a trailer during the opening as well.

Bit off topic but still, we know now that Terra is supposed to be around 19 and Ventus 16 so they're just 3 years apart age-wise yet either Terra has grown unusually tall or Ven is way too tiny for his supposed physical age!?

No clue tbh. All I can guess is that it's an error on Ven's model but apparently KH3's novel has the same error.

Really? It got included in the novels?

Assuming that the killer really is capable of disguising himself as Ava, this seems to be true. In fact, the simplest way to do it would be to summon Ven's Chirithy and order it to do the same procedure that was used to remove the Dandelions' memories of the Keyblade War. For it to work, either the killer's disguise must be good enough to fool the Chirithy, which I believe is much harder than fooling Ven himself, or the killer must be someone who the Chirithy obeys anyway (that is, one of the foretellers).


Perhaps it was the realization that he had been tricked?


I guess it is a bit of both. Ven is about same size as Sora, and checking this is a good excuse to re-watch the cutest scene of the whole series, the one where they shake hands... :p

Do we know if this was ever fixed in a patch?


I think so, yeah. Brain's prodding basically opened the floodgates. Ven's even younger at this point; he didn't have any friends until he joined the Union leaders so being told he didn't belong and that he might have been involved with the death of his friend's sister would have been absolutely devastating.

Since Darkness is likely still with Ven in the present guess that will be the vehicle Nomura will use to bring Vanitas back. Though most of us probably figured he would come back somehow, lol

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Yep. I don't freakin get it.

The inclusion in the novel makes me think it was intentional, but what it signifies is a mystery. Maybe to symbolize he's not quite right at the time?

That doesn't change the second part of what I was saying, Darkness is Vanitas, or rather, Darkness becomes Vanitas and admits that he was squatting in Ven's heart long before the split.

Is everyone really that obtuse?

EDIT: Though I will freely admit that Nomura has done hard 180s away from the obvious, but, I mean this feels like a reeeeeally long con.

WTF is that?
Did Amano just copy the error from actual game scenes or did he get some info to actually make the back of Ven's shirt like this?

Then again, it got never addressed in any official capacity now did it?
And in KH III I think Ven's shirt was correct again (and it also was correct in 0.2.'s opening, the opening that wordlessly showed off TAV's friendship and closeness better than BBS itself in its entirety).
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When it comes to the whole Darkness/Vanitas thing I'd say that when you look solely at what was displayed in the games themselves and in-game reports there is not much that outright disproves that Vanitas might be the entity "Darkness" nor is there anything that would make it impossible.

Now some might say it doesn't add up with Vanitas' backstory in the BBS novel, but it would not be the first time that something that was in the novels is ignored in favor of a new development.
If I recall correctly there were several things in the KH 2 novels (and the 358/2 Days ones maybe too) that were rendered non-canon by later developments in the series.

Another point possibly hinting towards there being more to the whole issue is the "Unversed" symbol being present not only in Scala ad Caelum but also in some magic circles.
Perhaps it isn't exactly only a symbol of Unversed but actually one of the Darkness (as either the element or the entity) itself as it can be interpreted as Darkness engulfing and holding a heart.

Still, that doesn't mean that Vanitas has to be "Darkness" from the UX-era in an 1-to-1 relation as there is a possibility of a Roxas/Naminé/Xemnas situation insofar that Vanitas is actually a hybrid being like them too.

Roxas is a hybrid made from Sora and Ventus.
Naminé is a hybrid made from Sora and Kairi.
Xemnas is a hybrid made from Terra and Xehanort.
Vanitas would then be a hybrid made from Ventus and "Darkness".

After all, when Xehanort ripped Ven's heart apart he may indeed have torn out the entity "Darkness", but still together with a small part of Ven's actual heart, the part that "Darkness" was hiding/sealed in.

Making it more "complicated" and Vanitas being a hybrid is imho much more Nomura's usual twist-loving MO than to simply say that "Darkness" from Ux and Vanitas are 1-to-1 the very same being just with some amnesia.

Ava is not Darkness, Darkness just took the appearance of Ava for the sake of an illusion. It's like how Zexion disguised himself as Sora to try and fool Riku in Chain of Memories.

Speaking of which, I don't even think Ava even chose Ventus as a Dandelion. Maybe Ventus took a pact with Darkness to save himself from the Keyblade War because Darkness told Ventus that there was a way to survive the Keyblade War in the real world?

I may be overthinking things, but if it is intentional and not just a mistake, I'd like to point out that Ventus's official Union Cross artwork appears to have a checkered style on the back, but the regular style on the front. The color used for the lower portion uses the same greys and blues used to shade the white segments of his outfit. It definitely seems to match his design in 0.2

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In KH3, the line itself is white, but the black parts are still definitely the same color, so I don't think it was just a coloring issue, but more Nomura foreshadowing.
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So did Maleficent in KH3 already speak with Darkness and travel from the past?

Yes. Maleficent and Darkness's little escapade in UX is what leads to her revival in KH2.

I know that, but I should’ve been more specific. Why help her at all if it’ll choose to stay behind in the past anyway? If it wanted her as a waypoint, why not come along with her already? What did it want to do in the past before coming to the future? Come to think of it, if it does possess Ven as a body for the future (because Ava is still missing if that really is Ava), why the disparity of 10+ years? Maleficent managed to return in KH2, but Lauriam was already Marluxia way before then, and even of Lauriam was the first to be taken to the future and used as a waypoint for the others (Ven, Skuld/X, etc.) why were they thrown into the Age of Prophecy before Maleficent returned and not during or after?

Putting the minor details aside, what did the Master even mean? Discard the current worldline to nothing, or just end Daybreak Town specifically?

That scene was pre-Keyblade War, so he's referring to the end of the world brought upon by that tragedy. He's not talking about any worldline, just the regular ol' world.

I'd like to propose a similar thought: Darkness, being a more "wild" force of nature, has slowly started to notice that there is an imminent threat to its survival, so it has slowly started to become sentient.

This jacket thing is very interesting. Thanks for pointing out Nomura's drawing zander, it definitely appears that in KHUX, Ven's jacket is slightly different. The back is checkered.

I wonder then, why was Aqua's vision of Ven wandering in the dark realm his... KHUX self? Is Nomura placing some significance on this then? Maybe there's a reason TAV is going to the dark realm....

Sorry, I didn't mean to patronise you. I guess we'll see what it wants to do before leaving though Luxu's Secret Report says a 'darkness' will lead the world to another demise so maybe it's to destroy to the data world for some reason.

Ah, so the World itself before it got separated into tinier worlds.




No offense taken. I have to wonder what the real world Daybreak Town looks like now since the war came to pass. The room with the ark in it looks intact and barely disturbed.

There might be something in that. A little after the Keyblade War, Ephemer did say that he felt a darkness in the new world unlike that of the old world and that it has a sort of 'intent'.

I mean that's what I assumed. After all, Ven became a heart of pure light afterwards and judging from the fact that nothing seems to indicate that here in the past, he must have a little darkness within him, much like someone like Sora has darkness. If Ven was Darkness's way of smuggling itself through undetected then all of this is logical thought at this point. It also explains what's up with Vanitas and the Unversed; after all why can Vanitas birth these creature of darkness just by having a heart of pure darkness? I mean a good amount of people just stopped asking that question but now we have something of an answer that makes sense.

Maybe that explains her interest in Pete's time travel method? It's interesting that Pete was able to open a doorway to: 1) another world and 2) another time from Hollow Bastion (the apparent location of this "Arc" device).

Could there have been something in The World That Never Was that facilitated Maleficent wanting that world, besides it being a "castle"? I'm just thinking that if she knew about time travel, the past and "Darkness", then maybe her new mission started in KH2?

Does "breath" of darkness mean the smell of darkness / stench of light lore lives on?

Catching up on the UX videos I was excited to see Maleficent's sense of smell was still a thing. Seriously. I want to know what the MoM smells like and if Riku will be able to figure out his identity without needing a face reveal!

Was catching up with the manga. Once more, checkered back.

All things considered, somebody on Gamefaqs said the KH3 light novel indicates Vanitas and Darkness connection, however it’s vague. Though the light novels should be taken as a grain of salt. For instance, Vanitas said the unversed or "dark masses' ' have consistently existed in Ventus before the split. Likely implying that the unversed originated from Darkness. Which could (or would) explain why Vanitas was born with the abilities. Or on the other hand when Vanitas implied that he had ancient memories. He was unable to tell if the recollections belonged to Ventus or someone else. Towards the end of the section, he was aware that he was Ventus' other half yet probably realized he was something beyond Ven's other half as well. It's difficult to tell because of the cliffhanger toward the end.

I'm inclined to believe Vanitas is a hybrid. Lol Darkness and Ventus birthed Vanitas. Sora sprinkled in his creation.

Okay, they have some weird obsession with 0.2 Ven having that freakin checkered back.

It's not impossible but there's been nothing to suggest that.

Overlooked this part in my previous post, so it gets addressed now.

Figures, Ven's eleven/twelve in UX which gives the whole situation even more gravitas. He's still a child and one with psychological problems already on top.

No wonder he wakes up bawling like a baby. Nomura really likes to heap more trauma on this poor kid, huh?



The whole issue with the "pureness"-factor is a bit iffy to be honest because in Ux Brain/Blaine, Lauriam and Skuld comment on how kind and "pure" Ven is before the whole heart-splitting crime caused by Xehanort four years before BBS happens.
In KH III Re:Mind when Sora visits Ven's heart it is "Darkness" themselves who mentions Ventus being "too pure", yet that surely can be taken in terms of personality, outlook and/or mindset and not literally mean light devoid of darkness.

Ven's darkness however being "tiny" and barely noticeable like Sora's makes sense in the vein that it would be the perfect hiding place for "Darkness" because others wouldn't notice anything, only if looking really close.

Maybe that is also why "Darkness" refrains from using Ven directly via possession to commit any bad act because doing so would "taint" Ven's pureness and thus compromise its perfect hiding place.

"Unversed" is the moniker given to these monsters by outsiders observing them like Eraqus, Yen Sid and Xehanort. Who knows, maybe they are the "monster forms" Darkness can take and have another, official name.
As if I recall correctly the Master of Masters said that "Darkness" first appeared as monsters but later could imitate people/hide inside people?
And weren't Unversed capable of "possessing" both objects and people in BBS?
They're possible Darkness-spawns that might actually come from the entity "Darkness" rather than be a byproduct of the heart-split done by Xehanort.
Certainly a possibility.



While "breath" can smell I think the whole "smelling darkness" thing introduced in CoM was more about darkness-related beings exonerating a certain "aura" or otherwise "magical" signature that can be picked up/noticed by others who are sensitive enough.

I would propose the title having a more symbolic meaning in a two- possibly even threefold manner:
1) Darkness is literally breathing down Ventus' neck because it is hovering right behind him before striking out to commit the crime on Strelitzia.
2) It is now figuratively breathing down the neck of all the Union Leaders and the entire data world which holds all the other Dandelions including the [Player].
Considering this being the finale we can expect things going down the gutter pretty fast.
Who knows? If Darkness becomes a boss, maybe it has a Godzilla-like destructive breath attack too?
3) the whole incident happens before the Keyblade War in Browser-Chi and thus in the old original world. Darkness was already breathing down the neck of that world too and working towards its destruction possibly the entire run of Browser Chi's story.
The creation of Dark Chirithy and the whole scenario with the bangles collecting Dark powers might actually have been their doing.



The thing is that both variants are equally possible at this point.
Vanitas could be a hybrid of Ventus and "Darkness" or he could be indeed Darkness themselves yet possibly influenced by their connection to both Ven and Sora and affected by amnesia.

The only thing that I think has to be buried is the notion that Vanitas is solely the dark part of Ventus' heart alone.

Maybe, but wouldn't Ven also be unusually resistant rather than vulnerable to such things? It is a person's own darkness that makes them vulnerable, as seen from Ansem/Riku and Maleficent/Terra. What the pureness makes Ven vulnerable to is deception, because it makes him unable to think like a bad guy.

Of course, that's also a valid reading of it. Good point!
Probably even more likely than just Darkness "holding back" is that it simply can't take direct control yet still likes it because it is such a perfect place to hide.

The unversed being a byproduct of Darkness rather than from Vanitas/the split makes a lot of sense. Obviously, that's not what Nomura intended when he made BbS, but it kinda fits way better if he has that power as a result of this Darkness figure.

Maybe relevant thread of mine where I came to similar conclusions https://www.khinsider.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-unversed-symbol-comes-from-theory.223263/

It may be more intended than you think.

You can look at the earliest screenshots of BBS, they absolutely were called unbirths and we know the story was dealing the heart before birth originally. There is this constant idea of darkness = sleep = death and talk of how hearts are born from darkness and return to darkness. I don't have the link anymore but during BBS era Nomura ran a Q&A site asking/answering random stuff like asking us if we would like to see a game set in RG's fall. On this site he said roughly word for word "there is more to the unversed than we know".

Then look at BBS's plot there was a weird energy represented by red and black in the plot. Aqua first senses it in Cinderella from the stepmother and stepsisters, red unversed eyes looking out from blackness, and Aqua described it not as darkness but "something very wrong" then later talked about sensing darkness in their home. Later we had the Evil Queen and she "turned her magic mirror into an unversed" and it was done by a black and red energy coming off her. Then they changed the idea of Sora's heart being from before birth, unbirths became unversed...but still talk about being things not versed in life, and they left the tremain sense in BUT they retconned Evil Queen turning her magic mirror into an unversed with a potion?

My thought is that Nomura may have been setting up the idea of the original darkness species as being representation of death/anti-life, something old and primordial, life born from death, light born from darkness. And that by Sora connecting to Ventus BEFORE his birth, rippled into Vanitas and connected Vanitas to the dark abyss all hearts are born from. That Vanitas became a portal allowing the sentient darkness, this opposite of life, manifest in the physical world.

But once they changed plans they had to rewrite a lot of these concepts. So instead of being because of Sora connected before birth, as now it's right after birth, he's introduced Darkness to fill in the same idea. By making him part Darkness he's connecting him to a being that has come from the dark abyss that life spawns from, and that's where Vanitas spawns unversed from.

Which also lets me think that the MoM and Darkness are both villains but on opposite spectrums. The MoM seeks to tear apart the world, of time itself, wiping away darkness but in doing so I think he may be aiming to wipe away death itself. To create a stagnant immortal world he will "guide" forever, a world that never sleeps nor dreams. While Darkness is the opposite, a creature that seeks to bring about the end, the end of light, of life, of existence, a world that sleeps forever dreaming endlessly. And we are supposed to be in the middle protecting the passage of time, the balance of life and death, of waking and sleep.

I dig it, especially that last paragraph.

I'll take a few shots in the dark with this.

1.) I don't think it's the MoM, since he's supposed to be "Gone" at this point, and his speech patterns are different than Darkness's. Not to mention, Strelitzia was one of the chosen, so it wouldn't make sense for him to kill someone he hand-picked himself. And we know that it was Ava's job to gather the Dandelions together in order for them to be the hope for the future. I've said this often, but Darkness knows things most people shouldn't, like the tower and the machine.

Strelitzia wouldn't have known these things yet, because she was still a regular Dandelion Keyblade wielder at the time. Chirithy can pop in and out of locations at will, but if a Keyblade wielder who owns a Chirithy ends up passing away, that Chirithy does as well. It'd be against its own interests, and we see it disappear with Strelitzia. Let's not forget, Darkness also talked about "acquaintances" too, and there's only a couple people this could apply ot.

If it's not Ava herself, then it's somebody who was able to figure out the layout of the Clock Tower, knew where the machine was, how it functioned, and is well-versed in time-travel to know that Maleficent didn't belong in their era... As well as knowing the method of how to return Maleficent to her original era. It's either that, or Darkness had been lurking in the shadows the whole time and knows everything because of how elusive a literal shadow is.

2. We know that Darkness can change form. Strelitzia went in, thinking it's the Player, but we were nowhere to be seen. So I think it's safe to say that Darkness was the one who masqueraded as the Player, in order to lure Strelitzia into the house. If Ven was there prior, then it'd probably mean that the same thing happened to him, only in his case, he ended up being possessed. If we see Darkness change into Ava as Darkness and Ven leave, it's not a stretch to think that they may have entered the house the same way as well. It wouldn't be strange at all for a Foreteller and a Keyblade wielder to enter a house together, especially with Ava's mission of collecting Dandelion wielders. Nobody would suspect a thing.

Darkness could theoretically masquerade as Ava, lead him to the house, "hijack" him and leave him in a semi-conscious state. As Ven is currently in possession, Darkness then changes into Player, and then leads Strelitzia into the house where it kills both Strelitzia and Chirithy.

3. This one really is going to require some Gomu-Gomu levels of stretching, but here's what I think could be a reason: Maybe Ven's special in a certain regard. Xehanort found him one day and made him an apprentice. Ven refused to use darkness, so Xehanort split his heart in half and planned to leave him on Destiny Islands to die. It's not until Sora comes around as a newborn and saves Ven. But Xehanort didn't give this up, he then brings him to Eraqus in order for Ven to eventually become strong enough to be used again as a tool.

Something that sticks out to me is that Xehanort said to Ven "Eraqus knows what you are." That's a really weird sentence to say, because that makes it sound like Ven is a monster instead of a victim by happenstance. But what if it's both? Going by ReMind, it's evident that Darkness is still within Ven. What I'm thinking is, maybe there's certain mental barriers that prevent Darkness from influencing Strelitzia, but it allowed to override Ven perfectly fine.

Not to mention, if Strelitizia was chosen to be a Union Leader by the Master of Masters, it's implied that she was strong enough of a wielder to handle her own. Ven apparently wasn't particularly remarkable, Ephemer didn't know who he was at all prior to the meeting. That's the only thing I can think of -- Darkness needed a host, and Ven happened to meet the requirements.

4. I'm wondering this too, but... Maybe there's a reason why Ven was necessary to be present in that room. It was behind Ven, leapt and cut Strelitzia and Chirithy down, and went back to Ven. It's clear that it can move about freely without Ven being around, so it's not as if they're one in the same (at least at this point in time). Darkness can also stand around in Daybreak Town in the sunlight, and can transform into different people as well. Maybe it was meant to cause discord between the Union Leader. If Ven feels guilty that he "killed" an Ex-Union Leader that happened to be the sister of another current Union Leader... What's Ven gonna do? He's gonna confess. How will Lauriam react to the knowledge that his sister was murdered in a dark room, and Ven is the one who has her book?

The Master of Masters said that the Keyblade War is a war that's fought between Darkness and Light. This is a stretch, but what if this is just all done in order to sabotage what the MoM set out to do? Of course, the MoM knows everything that transpired so he has to have known that this is all taking place. But it seems like Darkness is opposing what the Dandelions are doing. After all, why kill a Keyblade wielder in the shadows and hide your identity if your intentions are pure? Although... Maybe "Darkness" isn't evil just to be evil, maybe it too is doing this to protect something important. Idunno lol.

5. Exactly. It has to fit in with one of those people, it doesn't work if it's someone like Demyx showing up all of a sudden and he's Darkness, unless he used to be a Foreteller or someone that's privy to Foreteller knowledge. This is why there's a lot of evidence leading to Darkness being Ava, but there's still a whole lot that can change. I don't think a gender has been assigned to Darkness yet, has it? I think they don't say anything about it because if they did... It'd be a pretty big giveaway. Or, I might just be mis-remembering things lol. Who knows. It has to be a Foreteller though.




This is true, but I guess to be fair, this is their Master. Even as I say that though, I'm pretty sure at least Ira, Aced and Ava questioned him, but they just followed their role as they were told. Gula and Invi kinda did too, but just went and completed their task regardless. Luxu consistently questions the Master of Masters, but I guess that's just due to the nature of the relationship there.

This is just like Terra and how people called him out for believing in Xehanort until it was too late -- As far as Terra was concerned, Xehanort's a respected figure and a brother to Eraqus and most likely has zero idea on the context of their relationship beyond that, so he won't think much of it. Blind adoration can have very grave consequences is the lesson here.



You know, if those two are related and Ven started to essentially "lose" his older brother, it would explain why he took to Terra so well. He's close with Aqua too, but he looks up to Terra as a big brother, and while it's not strange at all... Maybe there's more to it. Who knows?



That's why even Luxu isn't an authority on what the Master of Masters is doing, unless he just somehow knew he'd leap all the way through time and suddenly reached 75 years prior to the next Keyblade War. Which of course, there's no way he could've known. Maybe since the Gazing Eye has existed through time, it allows him to jump to different eras as well. We see that eye in many different Keyblades, and we know that No Name had to be passed down, so maybe that eye was also seeing things that No Name couldn't have seen. Like in Way to Dawn and Void Gear. Idunno, just a possibility.



That's something that's gonna need to be explained too, because that's the contradiction that would've existed if Strelitzia lived. It could simply be a matter of convenience on Ava's end, but... Since we know it's a big deal because nobody else got their book that way, something's off there.

Nomura also did not intend for the "true" way to create the X-blade being a 7 vs 13 clash when BBS was originally made so there's nothing that stops further "tweaks" and additions.

Ansem also wasn't really Ansem so this isn't exactly new, lol.



Considering how multiple beings already pointed out how "pure" and kind Ventus is there might be indeed something special about him, yet when it comes to Strelitzia and comparing the two one thing I thinks stands out despite their similarities in terms of personality is that Strelitzia got something young Ven apparently doesn't: A stable support network of friends and family.

Despite being shy and also somewhat lacking in self-confidence Strelitzia did have friends and support already from others, be it Elrena (even if only barely) and her brother Lauriam.
We don't know much about Ven's life before he meets the other Dandelion leaders (during the timeline of Browser-Chi), only that he was a "loner" and apparently very lonely despite wishing to have friends and other connections with people.
On top of this Ventus seems to be younger than most if not all the other keykids who all seem to be between 14 to 16 in age while Ven is 11 or 12.
Darkness choosing Ven over Strelitzia might have been just because it was easier for them to slip in.

As for Xehanort's statements, applying Occam's Razor I would say this was about Ven being literally the light side ingredient of the X-blade at BBS times and nothing pertaining to past issues.
Furthermore, Darkness also does not possess Ventus as they perform the murder themselves instead of controlling Ven to do it.
When Maleficent controlled Terra to steal Aurora's heart, Terra's body moved and did the deed himself. In this case Darkness does all by themselves while Ven is just standing there in trance, his body not taking any action as if he was really just the "Taxi" Darkness used to move around.
He also only starts to move when "Darkness" orders him to, not unlike the flashback when Xehanort first brought Ven to Land of Departure where his heart was still partly damaged.





Good point and observation. Sometimes during BBS Ven truly acts like a little puppy when it comes to Terra and it does seem like he needs/wants a sort of older protective figure.

In UX times Ven is still a child and from the few statements we got of his life before he met Ephemer and the others there are hints that he might have been a sort of abandoned kid.
And in all honesty Gula is not someone I would imagine to be well-suited to look after a child even before the stress of his role drove him ever deeper into depression.

Whatever that meant originally, it's possible that Eraqus and Xehanort could know something about Ventus if they are seeing visions from the UX era in DR. Fwiw when I played BBS I did get the impression that Ventus was even then meant to be more important later on. In Xehanort's report he says they were 'destined to meet'.

Another thing darkness knows that they shouldn’t is how and why Maleficient Time travels in the first place. They know about Xehanort, they know the MoM purposely left out certain worlds, they even know that Riku stabbing Maleficent is what gave her the idea to time travel in the first place.
So either darkness is an extremely omnipotent being, or they are working in tandem with the MoM who has seen the future and is helping to act out his plan.

yeah this is the feeling I'm also getting they seem to be more in the know than most of the Foretellers seemed to be. I mean it's possible they know this stuff because they have access to the Book of Prophecy, but their dialog implies they don't have access to it and have a long running relationship with the MoM.

Darkness specifically says that they know Maleficent exists in the future because of the Book of Prophecies, though they haven't read 'everything' in it.

Oh right, for some reason I remembered it as them having read bits of it, but not really having access to the book. But that's not what was stated. So they just haven't read and memorized all of it, which considering how much must be in that book makes sense.

Yeah, I think it was just easier for Darkness to choose Ven too. By all accounts, the kid just doesn't stick out at all. If it had chosen Ephemer, it'd be predictable but understandable because the Foretellers know about him and he seems to be one of the more known Keykids hanging around. But Ven was a loner and wanted friends, he's basically the kid in high school who was in the back of the room and read manga the whole time. Him not having any friends, on top of the possible lack of connection with Gula (if there IS a connection there at all)... It probably was the right opportunity, despite Ven being pure. At least with Strelitzia, you can see how headstrong she gets when it comes to Player.

True, but you also gotta wonder why Vanitas was so strong after being ripped from Ven. The theory up until recently was that Ven's original self was probably darker, but if anything, his UX-era self seems even more chipper than how he was acting in BBS. Going off everything we know in KH, Ven's darkness should've been equivalent to a regular Shadow Heartless or something of that nature, Ven should've been the strongest of the two. But Xehanort thought to split his heart in two and knew there was a powerful darkness inside him... How? Something had to tip him off, unless the circumstance in how the two met involved Darkness being present and was also controlling Ven. Who knows?

Either that, or Eraqus and Xehanort had continuous flashbacks to the UX era, remembered Ven all these years later, and BBS plays out the way it does. Only now, we know there were deeper motives at play. But I do think it also ultimately comes down to Eraqus wanting to stop the X-Blade from being forged, although now because he knows what really happened to Ven, that's the drastic decision he concluded to. Idunno, it could very well be left alone, but I thought I'd mention it because you never know with Nomura.



Gula seems like the kind of guy who has his own M.O. and while he's probably not an evil guy, he'd rather not have to play babysitter the whole time. Meanwhile Ven is a little kid, and who knows where his parents would be (seriously, where are the parents in all of this lmao), so Ven is gonna wander and do his own thing without guidance. I'm glad the kid has friends now, cause jeez, but if Gula and Ven are related... No wonder he felt the way he did.

And y'know, despite Terra's shortcomings and all that, at least he's a good big brother to Ven. Or tries to be, at least.

[USER=71052]@SuperSaiyanSora[/USER] Remember that Xehanort can feel Darkness coming from people. Also "Eraqus knows what you are," still could be Xehanort referring to Ven being a heart of pure light, which is an anomaly since Ven isn't a Princess of Heart. It's pretty obvious that he's a part of Xehanort's plans even if Eraqus didn't know about the pure light versus pure darkness thing.

Also didn't someone reprimand Terra/Aqua for not realizing that Ven was a Pure Heart after being by so many Princesses of Heart? I might just be misremembering but I do recall a scene like that.

Isn't this explained very well in BBS? Vanitas gains strength from negative emotions, and Ven had a lot of those at the time Vanitas was created.


I think it refers to ancient keyblade lore. While Eraqus and Xehanort don't have access to a functioning copy of the Book of Prophecies, they do have at least some of its text. I believe Ven is mentioned in it, they both recognized him from it, and that's also why Eraqus attacked him.

About the speculated Gula connection: If it exists, then Ven doesn't know about it. He said that he has no idea why he was selected as one of the union leaders. If he knows that he is Gula's brother, then wouldn't he assume it is the reason why he was selected, and tell the others about it?

If I recall correctly BBS itself was originally supposed to be bigger storywise in all three scenarios. The game was initially conceptualized as a PS 2 game on the scope of KH 2, but development was moved to the PSP pretty quick and then the whole Versus XIII black hole started.

I still remember an interview of Nomura where he stated how BBS was the first of the "Handheld trinity games" (BBS, Days & Coded) to be conceptualized and started in development, but would be the last to be actually finished.

Going by that it is entirely possible that Ven was meant to have a bigger role initially but that went down in the end product.

Sometimes considering the developments during the last few years I get the vibe that Nomura apparently does want to flesh some major characters out more but seldom commits to go the full way through.
Another major example of this is Naminé, whose other promise with Sora, the one to become real friends once all the memory-shenanigans are settled, is largely forgotten in favor of dragging out the "Thank you"-promise and demote Naminé the character basically to either a glorified cameo or an exposition fairy.

Granted, the glorified cameo-treatment counts for many supposed major characters including Ventus, but maybe we'll see a change to that in "Phase 2" of KH if Nomura isn't too busy drooling over and playing with "Yozora".


Exactly, and considering how "Darkness" rants about Ven's purity during KH III times to Sora maybe they have a reason to want that purity to stay.

Also, Ven's "purity" seemingly wasn't affected from Terra's and Aqua's influence despite him becoming bolder, more sassy and sometimes even aggressive during BBS.

Then there's of course also the "angry look" Xigbar/Luxu keeps referencing which apparently left enough of an impression that Luxu remembers it over several centuries or even more.


Actually no, I never specifically "wondered" about that because the circumstances in BBS itself and Xehanort's Report together form a pretty plausible explanation for why Vanitas was "so much better off" than Ven himself.

The flashback with the Heartless does not really show it because Square was too lazy to create a younger model for Ven, but it happens four years before BBS proper so Ventus is supposed to be still the 11/12year old child there.

The Heartless attack him and Xehanort himself has to interfere and "save" him. He's lying there unconscious and already (obviously) weakened not only by the attacks themselves, but also because the Heartless try to attack the heart.
He was obviously mad in fear and full of other related negative emotions on the inside at that point.

In this situation Xehanort performs the heart-split "ritual/crime/procedure whatever you want to call it" when in his reports he already described Ven as (generally) frail.
Then in Xehanort-Report X it is stated:

In addition to Ventus already being weakened Vanitas, at the time of his creation, took more of Ven's heart with him than he was supposed to be and thus Ven's heart got further damaged.

The damage done to Ven's heart was the main problem for his critical state, not the amount of his Darkness.
Ven's broken awakening platform also shows less than a quarter actually missing and the part that is missing is already more than Xehanort expected/wanted to be.

Where was it ever stated that Xehanort "knew there is a powerful Darkness in Ven"? Can't remember it.
The only parts I remember is Xehanort acknowledging Ven's general potential, that he's "too kind for his own good" and that he has a general "frail constitution" (which is true, Ven is so skinny that it is almost hilarious and even when he's supposed to be 16 at BBS time proper he still looks like a little boy).
What Xehanort did do however was repeatedly goading Ven into unleashing his Darkness by himself, trying to groom him into a Darkness user which would naturally also involve increasing the level of Darkness inside the heart.
Xehanort repeatedly failed and eventually his patience ran thin, as evidenced by his "Feckless Neophyte"-speech.


It is a sad reality that one doesn't have to be "evil" to be a toxic influence on someone, although in Gula's case I could see the main issue being largely neglect which for an insecure child like Ven seems to be would be akin to poison because damn does he need guidance, encouragement and I dare say some affection.
The sparsely coming out updates of UX did not really give us much in regards to Ven but one thing that can be observed is that the influences and encouragement of Ephemer, Skuld, Blaine and Lauriam did serve to lure Ven out of his shell at least a little during their tenure while working together.

All in all though I'll agree that Terra and Aqua were probably the first unanimously good thing to happen for Ventus and since in BBS itself he shows some more confidence and even a sassy side sometimes indicates the four years they trained and lived together helped him quite a deal.

Terra is fundamentally a good guy at the core despite all the flaws and one can tell he does care deeply for Ven, even attacking his own father figure with little hesitation when his "little bro" seems to be in danger while in 0.2. we get to see that Aqua's feelings for him are just as strong.


Aqua could also sense that Riku got the bequeathing ceremony from Terra and that Sora had a certain potential, so Xehanort sensing something special in Ventus isn't that out of the ordinary. When it comes to sensing "Darkness" in the BBS reports Xehanort only speaks about Ven having "enormous potential" in a neutral sense, not fixated on any element in particular and a few sentences later dismisses him as a potential new vessel to transfer his heart to because Ven's "too frail".

I know its canon status can be disputed, but I think in the BBS novels Xehanort did tell Eraqus exactly what he tried to do with Ventus, as in trying to claim the X-blade and then feigned remorse for letting himself get out of control and having damaged Ven's heart (he does omit the existence of Vanitas however).

I'm not recalling a specific calling out of Terra or Aqua in relation to Ven himself happening in the games at least.
There were visual parallels given by Aqua remembering Ven's coma when she watched Sbow White in her coffin (which got made up to eleven in 0.2 when she found an illusion of Ven inside the same coffin) or Terra when he watched a sleeping Aurora.

While speaking in Radiant Garden Master Xehanort tells Terra that both Ven's and Aqua's light shines too bright and thus naturally casts shadows on Terra's heart and I remember in the BBS novel both Aqua and Terra refer to Ven as "their light" more than once, but I don't recall a specific statement being made that Ven actually has a heart of pure light.

Exactly, that too comes on top of what the Xehanort Report and the flashback scenes already show.

No, Eraqus attacked Ven because of the X-blade, that is made clear in actual dialogue right before he draws his Keyblade. He says something around that the X-blade "has no place in this or any other world" and continues with that Xehanort left him no choice and therefore Ven "must exist no more".

Good point about the Gula-issue. We do know however that Ven's memory was tampered with to quite some degree and even if he did remember Gula, considering his diffident and meek outlook I doubt he would have the guts to mention it since he wouldn't want to be compared to his "great bigger brother". Remember this is a 11/12 year old kid we're dealing with, one that has severe self-esteem problems so being compared to Gula if it came out that he, this lonely unimportant wash-out kid is related to one of the Foretellers would result in even more misappropriated shameful feelings on himself.

I guess you are right. Eraqus needed to know what the X-blade is and have some kind of understanding of how it is created, and those come from the lore. If Vanitas was part of MoM's plan, then the whole thing including Ven obviously is in the book (Xehanort used the No Name keyblade to do it, so the Eye saw it for sure), but that hasn't been confirmed. Also, we don't know how much of the Book's text they have and how accurate it is. So, Eraqus could have known more than what was shown on the screen, but he didn't need to.


But would pure and innocent Ven lie about it for such reasons?
Altering his memory about the connection doesn't seem to benefit for the killer in any way, and could even be counterproductive if any suspicion arises. An exception is if the killer is Gula himself, which is an interesting idea, because saving Ven from the Keyblade War would be a motive...

welp the story update we were supposed to get at the end of the month has now been postponed to early october

sad days

Damn.

Another delay?

I know they said the game is entering its final chapter, but this seriously should just finish already. Just tell us how certain characters got flung into the Age of Prophecy, how Daybreak Town turned into Scala Ad Caelum, maybe a final confirmation of who the traitor was with explicit naming, then let that be the end of it. It’s been five years! This wallet-swallowing game needs to end.

Back to topic, Ven’s chirithy sure looks normal colored. Despite being susceptible to Darkness and being made an accessory to murder AND stealing what should never have been his (I refuse to call him a cinnamon roll even back in BbS; he ain’t one), his Chirithy is not a nightmare, so that’s something to infer his probable innocence in all this.

Unless, of course, like Player, he has two and one of them is a Nightmare…

^That . I want them to drag out this "final chapter" of UX out for another two or three years while also throwing some of its super interesting, full of potential writing + plot into KH4 and any other games that may come along. Just think of the chilling murder mysteries that can't be told using any format that isn't a mobile game !

Wonder if the delay is because of the lack of animators?

As for why Ven would "lie" about Gula, has he really lied about anything? Has anyone asked if he has family or siblings? I can't recall. I know when the introductions were going around and they were getting to know each other, he mentioned he didn't have friends, nor was he particularly special or powerful. All of that can be true whether Gula is his elder brother or not.

Combined with the possibility of Darkness altering his memories, it might not have been too difficult erasing Ven's connecting to Gula.

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It definitely is a big contributor at least. UX is in its final chapter, so I have to assume this is being prioritized. At the same time, they can't go months without releasing new content for DR, and that is always added in chapters, with multiple 5+ minute long cutscenes with lots of unique animations and dialogue. With anniversary ongoing, everyone still WFH and who knows what other factors at play, I can't say I envy them.

As for why Ven would "lie" about Gula, has he really lied about anything? Has anyone asked if he has family or siblings? I can't recall. I know when the introductions were going around and they were getting to know each other, he mentioned he didn't have friends, nor was he particularly special or powerful. All of that can be true whether Gula is his elder brother or not. Combined with the possibility of Darkness altering his memories, it might not have been too difficult erasing Ven's connecting to Gula.

They never discussed their personal lives, yeah. Those two bits we got about Ven was because he offered that info unprompted.

Some people may murder me for this, but I don't think the problem with how UX story delivered is because it's on mobile.

I think, it's because it's
1: monthly
2: very short each update too.

Some other games does not only have longer story content for each update, they also may update more than once per month. And yes, it's both for some games whe UX is.... neither. but now there are delays, it seems they are more than.... underhanded, so to speak, to the point just asking for one seems really unlikely

Can’t argue with what’s true. Those are the main reasons why this game is so despised, alongside the gacha money sink.

I mean, it being on mobile would still mean the story is delivered for many of us in the form of youtube uploads from somebody else's playthrough. Uploads that I'm very happy to watch, but still far from how Kingdom Hearts is meant to be portrayed I think.

I know this discussion was a few pages ago, but I was just thinking about the checkered back Ventus has in that one 0.2 cutscene and how it was also brought into the novel and manga adaptations, and then I realized.

Ventus side of BBS starts with him shirtless. It never really made much sense to me even now, but then he gets connected to Sora and has a full outfit. Maybe that has some relevance in this?

I know he is wearing his usual outfit minus the Shoulderpad in his flashbacks, but they also did not bother to make a 12 year old model for those flashbacks, so..

The shirtless scene always confuses people, because some censorship gets in the way of interpreting it. You need to assume that he is supposed to be completely naked, then it makes sense. Nakedness can mean three things. First, it means (re)birth and the innocence that comes with it. This is even in the name of the game. Second, it means naked truth. This is also an important theme in the story, both finding the truth about Ven himself, and also Ven telling Aqua the truth that the title of Master had gone into her head. Third, it means sexuality. This isn't really the intented meaning here, although you can sneak it in by claiming that it is a coming of age story.

Ven's usual shirt also has an obvious meaning, it symbolises the split between Ven and Vanitas. Also, my brain wants to interpret it as a sign of noble origins, because it looks like a common coat of arms design, but I'm not sure if it actually is meant to be understood that way.

So, what does the checker pattern mean? I see three ways of interpreting it. It can mean another split, or it can mean recompletion and re-mixing of the previous split, or it can be a chessboard showing that Ven is part of the game that MoM is playing. If it really is present in UX, as that one drawing seems to suggest, then the last option is most likely the correct interpretation.