Why doesn't Mickey remember Xehanort?

[Sephiroth0812]

And that's fine, but Mickey just ends up looking like an idiot when his Master had information about what was wrong rather than something being wrong in general.

Yen Sid also had only vague info: "Mickey, I cannot shake the feeling something terrible is about to transpire."

Furthermore, as I said. Yen Sid did not want Mickey to be involved in it, he ran off on his own.

I'm speaking about post-BbS, pre-KH1, before Ansem and Xemnas even existed.
Let's treat this like a criminal investigation.

That is still a blank time period, who knows what Mickey actually did during that time.

We have two missing persons. Terra and MX. They were last seen together.
With that in mind, why wouldn't Yen Sid inform Mickey of MX in his efforts to find Terra? Imagine if I was a police officer who neglected to tell a detective about these details. It's vitally relevant from common sense alone. And you'd be an idiot if you didn't think there was some sort of connection. I mean, Yen Sid connected the dots on the Unversed and MX's disappearance beforehand, I think he would do the same here, especially knowing Terra and MX's past (eg the death of Eraqus).


MX's departure was what set things in motion in the first place in BbS. With him potentially still on the loose (and Terra gone), Yen Sid would be an idiot not to warn Mickey about him, if Mickey really didn't know who he was already.

That depends on what means "were last seen together".
In Aqua's ending, when Mickey assured Aqua that Ven's injured heart will also have his light to rely upon beside Aqua's, he considers Terra to be gone for good.
Yen Sid also says there was no sign of Terra, so is it that farfetched to assume that Yen Sid and Mickey counted both Terra and MX as lost cases, like they either eliminated each other or where obliterated by the energy outburst of the destroyed x-blade?
Yen Sid knows much but he's not omniscent.

The main question about Mickey's quest would also be how and when did it start and was Mickey really looking for all three of them right away. The main problem is really that we don't know anything of Mickey's adventures.
BtW, is there, beside Aqua and Braig, even one more person who knows that MX "hijacked" Terra's body and heart?

I agree however there is much not adding up at our current knowledge level, but wasn't it said in the Ansem Reports of KH 1 (also in some of the later ones which were actually written by Xehanort) that he also talked with Mickey at least once?
Apprentice Xehanort wrote of the keyblade and if I recall correctly he also saw Mickey with one.

Then there's of course the reason why did Mickey travel to Radiant Garden (and other worlds) in the first place?
Mickey was apparently cruising the worlds before KH 1, then came back for a time before he went out again due to the stars blinking out => letter to Donald in the first KH.
Mickey's first round around different worlds may have been really part of his efforts to locate and help TAV.

I slowly begin to realize why Nomura wants to tell Mickey's story as well.

I assume when you say "fulfilling one goal at a time" you mean how he didn't tell Sora and co. that Xehanort would return after the destruction of Xemnas/Ansem. I see no problem with this and it isn't a very valid comparison. Letting them know that wouldn't serve much purpose in their then-current quest. The only result would be, if anything, a morale crusher, knowing that Xehanort would return yet again.

Yeah, seems like a bad comparison, my main aim was however that Yen Sid likes to keep secrets.
Remember the Secret Ending of Re: Coded when Yen Sid spoke exactly od this (Xehanort returns) Mickey was surprised/shocked to hear that.
So this is either not part of the secret knowledge of a keyblade master or Mickey doesn't know all the classified information of a keyblade master yet.
That was my main attempt, to show that Yen Sid apparently isn't completely open with Mickey, he doesn't tell him everything for whatever reasons, just like, i.e. Dumbledore was not completely open with Harry in HP.

In this case, knowledge of MX is directly relevant to finding Terra and moreover something Mickey should have known in the first place. For all Yen Sid knows, MX could have escaped somewhere ready to strike again. And he isn't going to tell his apprentice, who has set off to find TAV, about this potential danger?

As I said, it isn't necessarily a plot hole, it's just flat out dumb.
Hell, if Mickey had never known the name of Apprentice Xehanort, there wouldn't even be a problem.

Who knows what really transpired? The flashback in KH 2 was very short so to say.
Maybe Mickey did notice something but kept it to himself for reasons unknown.

Also, didn't Mickey give advice to Ansem the Wise regarding the experiments and urged him to review the research data anew?
There is still much iffy on the whole timeline and Mickey's actions...hmmm.

 

[gelandporn]

That is still a blank time period, who knows what Mickey actually did during that time.

It really doesn't matter what he did during that time period, that he had a hard time remembering the name Xehanort says pretty much everything.

That depends on what means "were last seen together".
In Aqua's ending, when Mickey assured Aqua that Ven's injured heart will also have his light to rely upon beside Aqua's, he considers Terra to be gone for good.
Yen Sid also says there was no sign of Terra, so is it that farfetched to assume that Yen Sid and Mickey counted both Terra and MX as lost cases, like they either eliminated each other or where obliterated by the energy outburst of the destroyed x-blade?
Yen Sid knows much but he's not omniscent.

Ummm, that Yen Sid is not omniscient is why he cannot make such hasty assumptions as MX being "obliterated." "Well, I'm sure he's dead, we won't have to worry about him so I won't bother telling Mickey."

Yet, they clearly never gave up searching for Terra. It wouldn't be rational to assume one was alive and one was dead.
Also, don't twist words. Mickey doesn't consider Terra gone for good, he says maybe for good. Yen Sid meanwhile makes no such statement.

The main question about Mickey's quest would also be how and when did it start and was Mickey really looking for all three of them right away. The main problem is really that we don't know anything of Mickey's adventures.

That's irrelevant. Regardless of when and how his quest to find TAV started, if he heard the name "Xehanort," something should have clicked (if he knew who MX was, that is).

In any case, regardless of his priorities (for instance, maybe TAV weren't the reason why he set out and met AtW), it's not as though they would have been out of mind or forgotten.

Yeah, seems like a bad comparison, my main aim was however that Yen Sid likes to keep secrets.

He's not going to be keeping secrets if it impedes progress...
Literally, what you're telling me right now is that he didn't tell Mickey about MX because he likes to keep secrets. Despite how invaluable that information would be.

Remember the Secret Ending of Re: Coded when Yen Sid spoke exactly od this (Xehanort returns) Mickey was surprised/shocked to hear that.
So this is either not part of the secret knowledge of a keyblade master or Mickey doesn't know all the classified information of a keyblade master yet.
That was my main attempt, to show that Yen Sid apparently isn't completely open with Mickey, he doesn't tell him everything for whatever reasons, just like, i.e. Dumbledore was not completely open with Harry in HP.

Like I just said, there was a reason for him withholding that information. The time has now come.
There would be no rational explanation for Yen Sid not telling Mickey about MX at least by the end of BbS.

Who knows what really transpired? The flashback in KH 2 was very short so to say.
Maybe Mickey did notice something but kept it to himself for reasons unknown.

If that were the case, why would Mickey have such a hard time remembering him in KH2?
"Hmmm.... oh yeah! Xehanort, Ansem's apprentice! I forgot that he had the same name as Master Xehanort. Wait, why did I keep that to myself? Why did I even forget the name of the antagonist who caused all of this?..."

 

[Zul]

It's even more absurd when you take it into the context of the situation going on, creatures of darkness roaming about, new keyblade wielders present. The same name, "Xehanort" around that situation should have sparked something in Mickey's head.

I mean, it's obviously a retcon, they couldn't really do anything about it other than having Mickey be 100% uninvolved in BBS.

 

[Luap]

I mean, he knew Master Xehanort from BBS, and yet he didn't question anything about Apprentice Xehanort? Or was he keeping quiet while trying to find a way to free Terra?

Mickey most likely noticed the fact the names were the same, but, Mickey wasn't told anything about him except for a few details about what he was researching. And, since Mickey never saw Terra face-to-face, he wouldn't recognize him as Terra. So, Mickey just probably thought it was a coincidence.

Now though, after the events of KH2 and Re:coded, he knows how it all added up.

 

[Patamon246]

I'm sure Mickey knew of MX. IN the RE:Coded secret ending, he knows of him, besides he arrives at the climax of BbS. I'm sure he must have had some idea of it. Perhaps he didn't know the name, but knew there was a dark force at work. Other Masters can "sense" darkness, so Mickey must have "sensed" MX atop his mountain. Perhaps he knew not of his name until prior to BbS. Now, as to if anyone knows of Xehanort's "hijacking" Terra's body. Does Yen Sid not make reference to it in the RE:Coded secret ending? He knows the return of MX may also lead to the return of Terra.

An a seperate note, Ven may need some darkness to repair his heart. So could this mean Vanitas could be re-created to awake him? He can't be a "Prince of Heart", can he?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I'm sure Mickey knew of MX. IN the RE:Coded secret ending, he knows of him, besides he arrives at the climax of BbS. I'm sure he must have had some idea of it. Perhaps he didn't know the name, but knew there was a dark force at work. Other Masters can "sense" darkness, so Mickey must have "sensed" MX atop his mountain. Perhaps he knew not of his name until prior to BbS. Now, as to if anyone knows of Xehanort's "hijacking" Terra's body. Does Yen Sid not make reference to it in the RE:Coded secret ending? He knows the return of MX may also lead to the return of Terra.

Fact is, we don't know, lol.
It should be logical, yet what the people in this thread up to now are pondering about is Mickey's reaction (or lack of it) to meeting Apprentice Xehanort and learn his name.
"Xehanort" doesn't sound like a name that is used very often so it is somewhat iffy in regards to Mickey.
In BBS Mickey wasn't a master, he was in the middle of the MoM-exam.

Yen Sid actually never makes a comment to Terra returning, he points out that Terra is the only one of the BBS-Trio Mickey and he have yet to find a clue to. He only speaks about the return of Xehanort, and eventually Master Xehanort.
The Re: Coded-secret ending implies that Yen Sid and Mickey already know where Aqua is located, but couldn't save her yet.
In the very first sentence of the clip Mickey additionally tells Yen Sid that he's apparently very close to finally finding out where Ventus's injured heart is.

An a seperate note, Ven may need some darkness to repair his heart. So could this mean Vanitas could be re-created to awake him? He can't be a "Prince of Heart", can he?

Fact is, we don't know what exactly is needed to heal Ven's heart.
Furthermore, we also don't know the exact outcome of Ven's final battle in BBS:
1. Possibility: Ven completely destroyed Vanitas, that would mean the shard of Ven's heart that was his darkness (and the core of Vanitas's dark heart) is vanquished for good.
2. Possibility: Ventus re-absorbed the lost shard of his heart (and therefore Vanitas with it).
3. Possibility: After the x-blade was destroyed and their fusion fully canceled Vanitas's heart ended up as badly injured as Ven's.

Either way, re-creating Vanitas in order to save Ven would be a bad idea since then the whole x-blade-crap can happen again. Also, Ventus and Vanitas despise each other...and in a reunion Vanitas would always try to enslave Ventus.

If Ventus can remain an unofficial "Prince of heart" or not would depend solely on the way how his heart can be healed and if it can remain with only pure light without side effects.
On another side note though, if Ven's heart remains pure light he'll be also a target for various villains (not only Xehanort) who want to use a pure light heart for their own benefits.

 

[Patamon246]

Perhaps. However was it not in the BbS novels where Vanitas did not despise Ven? He actually enjoyed Ven's presence, but MX seperated them filling him with grief. Then the Unversed spawned from him and started killing them, hurting himself. This way he started to hate Ven as he blamed him for his pain, but who is to say Vanitas hasn't forgiven Ven in some shape or form? Maybe it doesn't sound like the Vanitas we know, but perhaps being killed is the perfect therapy (if he actually returns).

As to Mickey's reaction to AX. I stand by my theory that Yen Sid told Mickey of MX and the name "Xehanort" shocked Mickey.
Imagine hearing a man named Xehanort nearly killed two of your friends, then your in a friends house eating ice cream and s guy named Xehanort walks in. Maybe Mickey didn't make the connection, but I still believe he knew of MX.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Perhaps. However was it not in the BbS novels where Vanitas did not despise Ven? He actually enjoyed Ven's presence, but MX seperated them filling him with grief. Then the Unversed spawned from him and started killing them, hurting himself. This way he started to hate Ven as he blamed him for his pain, but who is to say Vanitas hasn't forgiven Ven in some shape or form? Maybe it doesn't sound like the Vanitas we know, but perhaps being killed is the perfect therapy (if he actually returns).

As to Mickey's reaction to AX. I stand by my theory that Yen Sid told Mickey of MX and the name "Xehanort" shocked Mickey.
Imagine hearing a man named Xehanort nearly killed two of your friends, then your in a friends house eating ice cream and s guy named Xehanort walks in. Maybe Mickey didn't make the connection, but I still believe he knew of MX.

I don't know from where you got that, the novels actually expanded on Vanitas's ever growing hate of Ven and an unsuppressable urge to hurt him whenever possible.
The reason MX separated them was not because MX actually wanted that, his original plan was to train both boys...but he was forced to take Ventus away.
After Sora had saved Ven's heart, it was however still damaged and Ventus was only able to walk around half-conscious, helpless and without any memories (that is even seen in the game itself when Terra asks him some questions when they first meet).
Regardless of Ven being in that helpless state though, Vanitas would go on to beat up and physically abuse Ventus again and again, once even nearly killing him.
As MX wanted to keep Ventus as a tool for the x-blade he decided to take Ven to Eraqus...so it was essentially Vanitas's own fault Ventus got taken away.
Also, Vanitas forgiving Ven? Huh? Did I miss something here? Ventus is the victim, not Vanitas, Ven doesn't need to apologize for anything.
The other way around it may become something, but honestly after all the evil Vanitas has done to him and his friends I don't see Ventus even wanting that monster back.
Anyways, we should be cautious with referencing the novels for future developments, as we 1. Don't have a real good translation yet (only summaries) and 2. the novels are second tier canon and therefore we need to always carefully look if there aren't contradictions with what the games and interviews show us.

---

Like said, the name "Xehanort" is not that common, and Yen Sid telling Mickey of MX it would be of utmost importance when he told Mickey about him.
Nonetheless, the main issue is not that he met Apprentice Xehanort, but that he apparently by the time of KH2 had a hard time remembering the name "Xehanort", which is really an iffy issue either way.

 

[Patamon246]

Actually. MX originally wanted to train Ven so he could take his body. That is why he wanted him to commit to darkness, as seen in a flashback in Ven's story. When Ven didn't he decided to undertake another plan he had, the x-blade. (This is all in the reports).
Also, I don't believe Vanitas actually attacked Ven, more so that his heart began to overpower Ven's when they were together, thats what I understood from the reports anyway.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Actually. MX originally wanted to train Ven so he could take his body. That is why he wanted him to commit to darkness, as seen in a flashback in Ven's story. When Ven didn't he decided to undertake another plan he had, the x-blade. (This is all in the reports).
Also, I don't believe Vanitas actually attacked Ven, more so that his heart began to overpower Ven's when they were together, thats what I understood from the reports anyway.

MX's plan to take over Ven's body was thought of when he first found Ventus as a child and saw his potential. But then Xehanort noticed the kid was too good-hearted and therefore to frail for him to use as a vessel. He then decided to use Ven for the x-blade instead. Here's the report in question:

Spoiler Show

And that was when I met Ventus and made him my pupil. We were destined to meet, and I could sense the potential within him, but the boy was too benign for his own good. I came to the conclusion he was too frail to serve as a vessel, and decided to use him for a second purpose I had in mind.
I would remove the darkness from his heart and split him in two. Then I would have my heart of pure light, and my heart of pure darkness.

In the flashback Xehanort also says:
"Do it, embrace the darkness and produce your Master the x-blade."
By that time the x-blade already was his intention.
Using Ventus as his new vessel he only contemplated in the beginning when he found him as a child, but abandoned it shortly after.

Xehanort decribed it as such, and it was in fact both on heart- as also on physical level that Vanitas assaulted Ventus when Xehanort brought him back from Destiny Islands after Sora stabilized his heart.

 

[Neptun]

Spoiler Show

And that was when I met Ventus and made him my pupil. We were destined to meet, and I could sense the potential within him, but the boy was too benign for his own good. I came to the conclusion he was too frail to serve as a vessel, and decided to use him for a second purpose I had in mind.
I would remove the darkness from his heart and split him in two. Then I would have my heart of pure light, and my heart of pure darkness.

In the flashback Xehanort also says:
"Do it, embrace the darkness and produce your Master the x-blade."
By that time the x-blade already was his intention.

sorry for the offtopic, but this way we could also assume why Xehanort wanted Ven to fight against a bunch of heartless and embrace the darkness. My best guess would be, that he wanted Ven to succumb to the darkness and then split into the entities heartless and nobody.

 

[Sign]

sorry for the offtopic, but this way we could also assume why Xehanort wanted Ven to fight against a bunch of heartless and embrace the darkness. My best guess would be, that he wanted Ven to succumb to the darkness and then split into the entities heartless and nobody.

No, Xehanort wanted Ven to embrace the darkness so he could obtain a new body.

 

[Patamon246]

Oh god, has anyone been paying attention?

Plan 1 - Ven was going to be Xehanorts new vessel
Failed.

Plan 2 - Make the X-Blade.
Success/Fail

Now, no matter what happened with the heartless, it wasn't going to work. I question that scene in the first place. A Heart of pure light and a Heart of pure dark must fight to create the X-Blade. Ven still had darkness in him (Vanitas) and the Heartless don't have hearts. I still think at this point Xehanort wanted Ven for a vessel but got ticked off and went through with the X-Blade plan.

I know what Xehanort said, but it just doesn't make sense in that context for the reasons mentioned above, maybe it was a mistake for that line to be there in the first place?

 

[venomblade]

I love asking a question and seeing all the KH experts tear it to pieces and come up with different theories, very interesting guys and gals

 

[Sephiroth0812]

sorry for the offtopic, but this way we could also assume why Xehanort wanted Ven to fight against a bunch of heartless and embrace the darkness. My best guess would be, that he wanted Ven to succumb to the darkness and then split into the entities heartless and nobody.

No, that won't work since nobodies didn't exist in that time period. Only pureblood heartless in the realm of darkness exist.
Also, with a heartless and nobody Xehanort would not have gained anything at all, he needs two hearts, one dark and one light.

No, Xehanort wanted Ven to embrace the darkness so he could obtain a new body.

Not in that flashback-scene, there he already decided to use him for the x-blade. As I said, he dropped the idea of making Ven his vessel not long after he took the child in as an apprentice, because he is too kind-hearted and his condition overall too frail to be of use for Xehanort.

Oh god, has anyone been paying attention?

Plan 1 - Ven was going to be Xehanorts new vessel
Failed.

Plan 2 - Make the X-Blade.
Success/Fail

Now, no matter what happened with the heartless, it wasn't going to work. I question that scene in the first place. A Heart of pure light and a Heart of pure dark must fight to create the X-Blade. Ven still had darkness in him (Vanitas) and the Heartless don't have hearts. I still think at this point Xehanort wanted Ven for a vessel but got ticked off and went through with the X-Blade plan.

I know what Xehanort said, but it just doesn't make sense in that context for the reasons mentioned above, maybe it was a mistake for that line to be there in the first place?

I don't get what your problem is. Xehanort's first intention was already discarded, so he decided to pit Ventus against one of Eraqus's students of light to obtain the X-blade. Pitting Ven against the heartless was only the first step in order to get him to become a warrior of darkness.
Aqua's heart could be used as a substitute, as said in the game itself.
Ventus's darkness was in fact very small, his benign and kind nature shows Ven had a very bright light inside his heart.
Yet still, while that darkness was small, it was "strong" => the brighter the light the stronger the shadow. Ventus was, beside being very gentle and shy, also very insecure, timid and lacking self-confidence, which fueled his small darkness.
Xehanort then decided to try to strengthen the darkness inside Ven even more through fear, calculating that if the kid won't use the darkness willingly he had to force him to do so.

I love asking a question and seeing all the KH experts tear it to pieces and come up with different theories, very interesting guys and gals

That's KH-Insider for ya..

 

[Patamon246]

I have been defeated once again. I have no clue how you figure this out. On a side note, is it strange that the only heartless in this period actually comes from Xehanort? He summoned them to fight Ven. Now with the Keyholes, could they also serve a secondary purpose? Why are there only purebloods?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I have been defeated once again. I have no clue how you figure this out. On a side note, is it strange that the only heartless in this period actually comes from Xehanort? He summoned them to fight Ven. Now with the Keyholes, could they also serve a secondary purpose? Why are there only purebloods?

Simply combining the reports, interviews and the events in the game itself, then interpret them.
The heartless in that period don't come only from Xehanort, he is just the only one we see who is strong enough in mastery of darkness to summon neoshadows directly from the Realm of Darkness, that is exactly what he did.

I don't quite get what this has to do with the keyholes now. The reason Xehanort summoned the heartless was solely because he wanted to force Ventus to rely on darkness, knowing also full well that the insecure kid would be frightened and that his fear would increase the darkness inside his otherwise light-filled heart.

There are only purebloods because they are natural heartless, they always inhabit the Realm of Darkness.
The emblem heartless are artificially made by Apprentice Xehanort and Ansem's apprentices during their experiments later on (between BBS and KH 1).

 

[Neptun]

No, that won't work since nobodies didn't exist in that time period. Only pureblood heartless in the realm of darkness exist.

But people can still turn into heartless in the realm of light.either by being attacked by a heartless or by succumbing to the darkness in their own heart, as explained by Yen Sid and implied in countless other instances: "If one such as you, Donald, yields to the darkness in their heart, they too will become a heartless."
And as we know a nobody can be created through either way.
of course without any heartless avaible people are unable to lose their heart to those, but I don't see any reason why people should be unable to succumb to the darkness in their heart during the bbs-timeperiod. In fact, the xehanort reports imply that this is exactly what happened sometimes.

Spoiler Show

At present, the lanes and corridors that run between the worlds may only be traversed by us Keyblade wielders, and those who have given themselves over to darkness.
As the former, our duty is to cross the chasms between the worlds and guard against the latter, whose darkness corrupts and contaminates, so that no world need ever be lost again.

Also, with a heartless and nobody Xehanort would not have gained anything at all, he needs two hearts, one dark and one light.

you're right. completely forgot that actual hearts are needed. well, that's that.

 

[JustDarkMemories]

I love asking a question and seeing all the KH experts tear it to pieces and come up with different theories, very interesting guys and gals

Hehehehe... Welcome to KHI ^_^

 

[rac7d]

conveniatly mickey never met terra face to face, or he would have recognized him right away during his visit to ansem,
if he did he proably would have been able to prevent that disater and then most of kh wouldnt not have been able to occur