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What do you Think about Xion?



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Relix

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Uhm, wouldn't Roxas have gotten any memories from CO regardless of going there or not? Wasn't it the fact that he would be getting to close to Sora the Organization kept him away? Hell wasn't CO off limits to everyone becuz of the slaughter of the other members except Axel who was sent there by Xemnas and Saix to do some recon work for the Chamber of Waking? Nevermind.

I'm gonna throw my two cents in anyway concerning Days' effect on Riku's character:

The story made it so Riku didn't want to interfere with Xion going to Sora by force because he wanted Xion to make the decision herself/himself/itself? Isn't Riku's character more straight forward than that. Every single action Riku ever done was a 'do it at all costs' mentality, why now would he think twice about bringing her/he/it in? I'm just saying the Riku from Days doesn't seem like the same Riku from KH, CoM, KH2.

Just explain to me how Days didn't alter Riku's personality, if you believe it didn't that is.
damn KH fanfiction made canon...ruined one of the best characters in the series.
 

Goldpanner

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Facing Sora's Nobody.



It depends on what you think his struggle is about. I don't see it as "sacrificing other people for his selfish needs". That seems to be the Darkness inside him talking, and is more what he regretted ever since the end of KH1. His struggle was with the Darkness, and the "journey", his "ascension" was more from "I'll fight the Darkness and redeem myself!" to "I'll redeem myself WITH my Darkness!"
So how much Darkness Riku used, or didn't use, doesn't make him any colder or warmer imo. That was settled at the end of KH1.



and again, that's contradicting Riku's basic concept. So he embraced the Darkness, so what. So now he goes and sacrifices things and does basically what made him loath the Darkenss to begin with? Yeah, I see Riku a mite differently than you do.



For the sake of good. It was HIS Darkness to use as he sees fit. Nothing in there about dragging people by the hair.



Both Xion and Namine would've been sacrificed. Well, they were sacrificed anyway it just wasn't half as much on Riku's hands as had it been if he'd have been the one to do the did.
With Roxas, it was the other way around. Say Riku let Roxas go. Roxas does what? Get killed by Xemnas. I'd say that's pretty damn counter-productive all around and stands in rather perfect coordination with everything else so far considering he basically saved Roxas.
Then we have the complication that Diz walked in, not really giving Riku the option of running away with him even if he was considering it, in light of having became everything he hated in the process.

I really can't be bothered to keep arguing about this, because I know you've justified it in your own head adequately and I won't get you to see it any other way.

Let's just leave it at, it's not enough for me to accept it as a natural thing for Riku to do, and this is not an opinion I have pulled out of nowhere, same as you have obviously thought a lot to come up with your opinion.

How much did he really see though? And again, how much were "flashes of the boy in red" and how much were "his own Memories"? There's a difference in approach which comes to show a great deal of why Roxas and Xion acted differently despite both housing Memories of Sora.

Convenient that he saw very little, and she saw a lot, isn't it? It's almost as if... the plot was designed like that on purpose...

One has to wonder though how much he'd have still wondered if they told him it was because his Somebody would've had it. Roxas had several times, not only once, settled for the explanation of "you'll understand when you have a Heart" for different reasons. I don't find this to be too unsimilar.

You already know that I think he was made to react in this manner to stretch out his plot and give Xion space to have her own.

Hmm, are we still operating on 'Xion didn't exist' hypothetical situation? Say Roxas leaves the Org after regaining Sora's C.O memories. Since he knows this would mean a literal death sentence, he would make himself scarce. Not only will Riku have difficulty tracking him because of this, but Roxas, upon seeing Riku's Org coat disguise, would also instinctively flee. If Riku pursues and corners Roxas, Roxas would probably kill Riku out of sheer desperation before Riku has a chance to transform into Ansem.

And KHII as we know it wouldn't exist. =P

Before Days, we already had a workable idea of how things went down, based on what we knew from KH2 and FM+ etc.

I never questioned why Roxas didn't run from Riku then, did you?

Axel: if you get on their bad side they'll destroy you!
Roxas: No one would miss me.

He really didn't seem all that worried about his death sentence when he defected, and we saw this in KH2. Why would Xion not existing suddenly change this?
 
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In_a_Quandary

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Before Days, we already had a workable idea of how things went down, based on what we knew from KH2 and FM+ etc.

I never questioned why Roxas didn't run from Riku then, did you?

Axel: if you get on their bad side they'll destroy you!
Roxas: No one would miss me.

He really didn't seem all that worried about his death sentence when he defected, and we saw this in KH2. Why would Xion not existing suddenly change this?

You have me again. I'm really not thinking through all this properly.

*sighs* Guess I have to resign myself to the conclusion that Xion's presence makes absolutely no difference on the overall plot...
 

Goldpanner

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You have me again. I'm really not thinking through all this properly.

*sighs* Guess I have to resign myself to the conclusion that Xion's presence makes absolutely no difference on the overall plot...

No, she does! In the future, at least.
+She caused Riku memories to go in Sora, which are found in Coded and will probably be explored more in future game
+She will have her 'hurts mended' in future game

+??? Now that's she's here, she's here to stay.

But it's always handy to keep in mind when arguing with haters that she was not created by Nomura and wasn't part of his original plan for the Kingdom Hearts series, which is why KH2 and CoM work perfectly fine, and even seem a little off now, that she has been created.
 

In_a_Quandary

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No, she does! In the future, at least.
+She caused Riku memories to go in Sora, which are found in Coded and will probably be explored more in future game
+She will have her 'hurts mended' in future game

+??? Now that's she's here, she's here to stay.

But it's always handy to keep in mind when arguing with haters that she was not created by Nomura and wasn't part of his original plan for the Kingdom Hearts series, which is why KH2 and CoM work perfectly fine, and even seem a little off now, that she has been created.

I meant she had no (noticeable) impact on the KH => KHII continuity. Of course when her (forgotten) existence is unearthed in the future, there will be consequences.

Thanks, but I don't have any intention of arguing with Xion-haters. Even I have to admit that some of their reasons for hating Xion are valid (Mary Sue characteristics get an honorary mention), whatever my opinion of said reasons are. Subjecting myself to such concentrated amounts of negative emotion isn't high on my priority list, however.
 

Goldpanner

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I meant she had no (noticeable) impact on the KH => KHII continuity. Of course when her (forgotten) existence is unearthed in the future, there will be consequences.

Well, it's to be expected. She was proposed by the novel writer, Kanemaki, in about 2008, four years after CoM, three years after KH2, and one year after FM+ had been released. So of course everything made sense without her... you can read about that here if you haven't already :3

Thanks, but I don't have any intention of arguing with Xion-haters. Even I have to admit that some of their reasons for hating Xion are valid (Mary Sue characteristics get an honorary mention), whatever my opinion of said reasons are. Subjecting myself to such concentrated amounts of negative emotion isn't high on my priority list, however.

Fair enough :3 being one of the said haters, I find it cathartic to bitch about Days every now and then, but I do understand completely.
 

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goldpanner said:
Let's just leave it at, it's not enough for me to accept it as a natural thing for Riku to do, and this is not an opinion I have pulled out of nowhere, same as you have obviously thought a lot to come up with your opinion.

Fine by me. I guess I'm just gong-ho since it's been a while since I un-hermit'd.
Was fun.


+??? Now that's she's here, she's here to stay.

Same as every other thing in the series, for better or worse. He can't even kill characters

But it's always handy to keep in mind when arguing with haters that she was not created by Nomura and wasn't part of his original plan for the Kingdom Hearts series, which is why KH2 and CoM work perfectly fine, and even seem a little off now, that she has been created.

"original plan for KH". It's the man who admits he thinks things through as he goes along and put KH2 a year ahead of KH1 for the sake of "mystery". And with my current stance about BBS, yeah. I'm not too fond of his more "carefully planned" games :\
I came to the conclusion ages ago Nomura sucks with plot. I'm just glad I like most of the characters he throws at me. Most.
Screw you, Ven who ate away Sora's right to exist as a character

Personally, I don't think KH2 or KH1 feel off in the least. But we already saw this is one point of disagreement we won't be getting over any time soon if at all. :)

Thanks, but I don't have any intention of arguing with Xion-haters. Even I have to admit that some of their reasons for hating Xion are valid (Mary Sue characteristics get an honorary mention), whatever my opinion of said reasons are. Subjecting myself to such concentrated amounts of negative emotion isn't high on my priority list, however.

I think that at least in this thread at least here, we're all having good clean fun. We ran arguments back and forth and agreed to disagree which is the best conclusion a debate can reach (well, one of two. the other's reaching an agreement but that depends on the people involved and their tastes).
On another note, wanna join the Xion fc? :D


EDIT: so liek yeah. One point that happened with Xion that couldn't have happened with Roxas.
The Keyblade issue started really for both Xion and therefore Roxas when Riku called her Keyblade a sham.
Wouldn't have applied for Roxas.
 
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Allister Rose

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Same as every other thing in the series, for better or worse. He can't even kill characters
this is definitely for worst.

"original plan for KH". It's the man who admits he thinks things through as he goes along and put KH2 a year ahead of KH1 for the sake of "mystery". And with my current stance about BBS, yeah. I'm not too fond of his more "carefully planned" games :\
I came to the conclusion ages ago Nomura sucks with plot. I'm just glad I like most of the characters he throws at me. Most.
Screw you, Ven who ate away Sora's right to exist as a character
Why do you He did that??? Xion did the same for Roxas.
 
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Not as much. Ven and Sora are pretty much one and the same. As much as I don't like Xion, she has her own personality distinct from Sora and Roxas.
 

Allister Rose

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Not as much. Ven and Sora are pretty much one and the same. As much as I don't like Xion, she has her own personality distinct from Sora and Roxas.
Not exactly....Sora is Sora no matter what, but Ven is only a fradctured, and unawakened heart, it still doesn't have an affect on sora in terms of personality, though they are both are very similar, theres enough distinguishing [spoilers]ven from him.

Smile assumes that ven is what makes up sora. but he doesn't
 

Smile

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Sora fused his Heart with Ven when he was just born. Even before he was actually born, only that part was obscured for us Western audiences. So I'd say that what Sora grew up to be, especially once he absorbed the rest of Ven, isn't really up to him.
 

Allister Rose

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Sora fused his Heart with Ven when he was just born. Even before he was actually born, only that part was obscured for us Western audiences. So I'd say that what Sora grew up to be, especially once he absorbed the rest of Ven, isn't really up to him.

well it wasn't an actual fusion in the first one, he simply touched sora's heart that helped complete him. Sora completed ven, but Ven had no true affect on sora, and we see that with vanitas too. And when he absorbed the rest of him, it was so he would heal. It doesn't mean Ven makes up Sora's personality and person and ven didn't even give sora the keyblade, nomura said he still earned that on his own. It was until his heart stayed behind in roxas when it gave more of an affect
 

Ikkin

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Re: what would have happened if Xion wasn't there,

Roxas' concept in Days basically requires Xion for anything to happen.

Roxas, when he's first born, is completely blank. Axel, when he first meets Roxas, is almost completely cold. Both of these are entirely logical, due to their existence as Nobodies (and, in Roxas' case, an amnesiac Nobody).

Without some kind of outside influence, there's no conceivable way for either of them to move past "heartless automaton." Roxas would have patterned himself entirely on Axel, going through the motions and following orders because that's what he does. And, without a compassionate Roxas, Axel would have had no reason to change himself and begin acting for his own purposes instead of just doing whatever Saix says.

And "but Roxas would have gotten Sora's memories if Xion wasn't there" doesn't work either, because there's no reason to think Roxas would have actually gotten those memories without her. The only reason he saw what he did was because Xion was siphoning them through him, and Xion was able to do that because she's not actually a Nobody to begin with. Xion's purpose is to collect the Keybearer's memories, so it makes sense that she can do that. Roxas is a Nobody whose memories got torn away when Sora's body returned in Hollow Bastion - his connection to Sora's memories is demonstrably weaker than Sora's own, so the memories wouldn't have any reason to leave Sora in the first place.

Now, you can say "Roxas was only given that personality because they needed Xion to exist," but that's not necessarily the case. Nomura did say that, from the beginning, he thought Roxas needed the influence of a girl his age to get him to leave, even if Xion herself wasn't created to fill that spot until later.
 

Key of Valor

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Ikkin said:
And "but Roxas would have gotten Sora's memories if Xion wasn't there" doesn't work either, because there's no reason to think Roxas would have actually gotten those memories without her. The only reason he saw what he did was because Xion was siphoning them through him, and Xion was able to do that because she's not actually a Nobody to begin with. Xion's purpose is to collect the Keybearer's memories, so it makes sense that she can do that.

Xion is a Replica, so wouldn't her purpose be simply to replicate the abilities of her "original"? So perhaps it could be argued that the only reason she could absorb Sora's memories was because that ability itself was one possessed by her "original". Therefore, perhaps Xion was unnecessary for allowing Roxas to absorb Sora's memories. In fact, maybe she just obstructed the process by claiming some of those memories for herself.
 

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Without some kind of outside influence, there's no conceivable way for either of them to move past "heartless automaton." Roxas would have patterned himself entirely on Axel, going through the motions and following orders because that's what he does. And, without a compassionate Roxas, Axel would have had no reason to change himself and begin acting for his own purposes instead of just doing whatever Saix says.

Well, Roxas had Ven's heart inside him, which I believe influenced things regardless, and also, I don't agree with your argument re:memories.

the only reason he saw what he did was because Xion was siphoning them through him

We don't know whether that is the case, though. We already knew from CoM that Sora was able to access Roxas' memories of Twilight Town as he was the 'other side of his heart'.

Besides, Namine was tearing the memories off their chains. It's not a stretch for it to mainly be those loose floating memories that made their way into Roxas. As Namine said in CoM:

Sora... The loose links will sink into the darkness in your heart.

Since then, I always assumed that ended up meaning they sank into the 'other side', which is why they needed Roxas back to complete the restoration in KH2. Before Days, I never thought anything of Roxas seeing Sora's memories due to their connection...

Now, you can say "Roxas was only given that personality because they needed Xion to exist," but that's not necessarily the case. Nomura did say that, from the beginning, he thought Roxas needed the influence of a girl his age to get him to leave, even if Xion herself wasn't created to fill that spot until later.

Of course it's not necessarily the case, we'll never know. But I personally see a pretty big difference in the Roxas presented to me in KH2 (and even as presented in Coded), and the Roxas presented to me in Days.

And if Nomura did think that, then I wonder why he answered question like this back in 2007:

—What triggered Roxas’ separation from the Organization?
NOMURA: As he kept having recurring dreams of Sora, someone he didn’t know, he felt he needed to leave the Organization to find out who these people he didn’t know were. As Axel didn’t want him to go, he didn’t tell Sora about Roxas in Castle Oblivion, did he?

Considering that in the same interview, he was already answering questions in a way that foreshadowed BBS:

—In the additional event “Farewell to a Friend”, there’s a scene where Axel tells Roxas “you really do have a heart, don’t you?” What is the actual case here?
NOMURA: In this scene, it ends bringing up more mysteries about Roxas, so for the answer, maybe take care to follow your hunches well. It’s also related to Xehanort’s memories, but, I can’t give any specifics now.

You wonder why he didn't at least make some hazy 'this will be related to mysteries in a future game' type statement? He gave a pretty straight answer...
 

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I'll give in my two cents:

Roxas' concept in Days basically requires Xion for anything to happen.

Exactly, Roxas' concept in Days as it stands presently.

Without some kind of outside influence, there's no conceivable way for either of them to move past "heartless automaton." Roxas would have patterned himself entirely on Axel, going through the motions and following orders because that's what he does. And, without a compassionate Roxas, Axel would have had no reason to change himself and begin acting for his own purposes instead of just doing whatever Saix says.

There was never truly any hint that Roxas had been in such a blank state previously when 358/2 Days didn't exist. I don't think Xion at all had that much influence in how Roxas broke from his "monotone" state. He appeared to progress slowly on his own and with each Disney world experience. Learning about love, friendship, etc., and Axel there to guide him through all his curious questions. Xion being present or not present doesn't affect this growth. How can you say he wouldn't have been compassionate without her? When she wasn't a force or a friend, he was choked up that Axel might have died and was enjoying the time spent with a good friend. Feelings had sprung, and the reason for them were because of Ven's Heart. I don't see how Roxas would have patterned himself around him either. He never seemed to follow what Axel did. He follows his advice, sure, but I never saw any clue that he would have been entirely like Axel if left entirely alone with him. That doesn't...equate. Especially since Roxas questioned the Organization's motives before shit had started.

And "but Roxas would have gotten Sora's memories if Xion wasn't there" doesn't work either, because there's no reason to think Roxas would have actually gotten those memories without her.

The basic process that's been said in-game and interviews is that Roxas got Sora's memories, but Xion sucked them from him to itself. So, in general terms, if Xion wasn't there, what vessel would the memories remain in? CoM made it possible for Sora's old memories to be a mess and broken - it isn't farfetched to believe those pieces would have transported to the other half of himself, especially since Nobodies are suppose to have their original self's memories.

Now, you can say "Roxas was only given that personality because they needed Xion to exist," but that's not necessarily the case. Nomura did say that, from the beginning, he thought Roxas needed the influence of a girl his age to get him to leave, even if Xion herself wasn't created to fill that spot until later.

And I don't believe that for a second. Every time he was asked why Roxas left, it had been because of Sora's and/or Axel's actions/lies. Like goldpanner presented. Never did he once say before Days was made into a concept that there was always another outside influence or person. I find that odd, considering he had no problem revealing anything else on the matter. And even in the game now, you can see that, as much as him or the staff attempted to shoe-horn Xion into everything they could that didn't even need an explanation to make her somewhat relevant, they couldn't change what was established in KH2, so Roxas stayed unmentioning Xion to Axel as his reason for abandoning them.

That, and personally, the idea of a girl of all things making a guy see that an already shady Organization aren't trustworthy is rather ridiculous, cliche, and utterly stupid when he didn't even need her to figure that out - enough to ask Axel about their goals at some point earlier on in the same game.
 

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Re: what would have happened if Xion wasn't there,

Roxas' concept in Days basically requires Xion for anything to happen.

This is true. Days, as we know it now, requires Xion for everything, because, as has been said before, Days plot = Xion
HOWEVER, Days could have been created without the need for an extra character. Actually, the story didn't even HAVE Xion or her influence until towards the end of KH2FM+'s production. Which shows that the story was hunky dory without her in it, and she was completely unnecessary.

And "but Roxas would have gotten Sora's memories if Xion wasn't there" doesn't work either, because there's no reason to think Roxas would have actually gotten those memories without her. The only reason he saw what he did was because Xion was siphoning them through him, and Xion was able to do that because she's not actually a Nobody to begin with. Xion's purpose is to collect the Keybearer's memories, so it makes sense that she can do that. Roxas is a Nobody whose memories got torn away when Sora's body returned in Hollow Bastion - his connection to Sora's memories is demonstrably weaker than Sora's own, so the memories wouldn't have any reason to leave Sora in the first place.

Now, you can say "Roxas was only given that personality because they needed Xion to exist," but that's not necessarily the case. Nomura did say that, from the beginning, he thought Roxas needed the influence of a girl his age to get him to leave, even if Xion herself wasn't created to fill that spot until later.

Actually, Roxas WOULD have gotten Sora's memories if Xion wasn't there, and DID get Sora's memories with Xion not being there. That's kinda what happened in KH2, you know, BEFORE Xion and her influence was canon. So it is entirely possible, and was canon for a while. Proof of this is in the interview Gold posted:
—What triggered Roxas’ separation from the Organization?
NOMURA: As he kept having recurring dreams of Sora, someone he didn’t know, he felt he needed to leave the Organization to find out who these people he didn’t know were. As Axel didn’t want him to go, he didn’t tell Sora about Roxas in Castle Oblivion, did he?
And while Nomura did say somewhere, once, that he had a girl in mind, this girl was not yet Xion (especially not as we know her), and was also not yet canon, and thus does not count. Besides, the author of the novels states that SHE is Xion's creator:
Tomoko Kanemaki - Novel #14 Afterword said:
I remember happily the days when all the new staff at Square Enix’s Shinjuku office had very long conferences with Tetsuya Nomura. That time, he usually came once or twice a week. Most of the discussion was during meetings amongst Yukari Ishii of the scenario team, and the reliable supervisor, Daisuke Watanabe, and myself. Well, we really did talk about many different things. Mr. Nomura looked at the discussions the three of us had, and produced. Mr. Nomura added his hand and created more things, and that’s the shape that production took as it went along. I had been involved in game development before that, however, these jobs were all on visual novel type games, and this was the first RPG I’d helped produce. I’d usually worked alone over everything else, and so working in a team in itself was also something I was able to enjoy.

Out of the things we discussed in relation to the premise, the number one thing impressed on my mind was the premise related to Xion.

I was the one who put forward the premise of Xion, and very much of what I discussed and decided was adopted. This includes her name, which I thought about deeply. It’s already touched upon in the Ultimania, but Xion’s name corresponds to Naminé (?? ‘the sound of waves’) as Shion (?? ‘the sound of the tide’), as well as being an anagram of X and ‘the Number that Never Was’, the imaginary number No. i. Then there’s one more thing. The flower Aster tataricus [‘shion’ in Japanese] means ‘I won’t forget you’ [in Japanese floriograpy].

Furthermore, Xion’s hair colour was also a request of mine. It came from my private desire, “I want to see Mr. Nomura make a girl with black hair!”. It was nothing other than a perk of the job. I am treasuring a rough sketch of Xion that (probably) hasn’t been shown to the public.
Moreover, the base of the Replica premise of mine was also adopted. It was an idea that came from a thought I’d had when I was writing Riku’s volume of the Chain of Memories novels, that the Replica’s weren’t actually counted. Beings whose existence has been created, that are supposed to exist even less than the beings that aren’t supposed to exist. The premise is one that cannot but end sadly no matter how you handle it, but I think so if the Replicas are feeling happiness in their hearts at the end, even after all that.
So if Nomura DID have a girl in mind, like he said, it was either Kanemaki that planted the idea, or, plain and simple, it wasn't Xion. I'm going with the latter. If I am correct, then that means this idea of a girl was retconned for Kanemaki's idea instead, meaning the story was actually reworked to make sure Xion fit in, which only shows even MORE how much she wasn't needed, since it was the story that needed to fit HER in, not HER that needed to fit the story in.
There's also the fact that Days wouldn't have even been made had Nintendo not asked Nomura to, as they wanted a KH DS game. Which means, you got it, Xion NOR her influence had ANY impact on KH2 or KH2FM+ until AFTER they were made, again showing that the story had to be reworked just to squeeze her in.
The KH story has already shown her as unnecessary. KH2 and some of the corresponding interviews are proof of this, since Xion was nowhere near canon at that time.

Need I go on?

I hope I didn't come off as rude. xD; When it comes to KH debates, I tend to be passionate on this particular subject. My apologies if I've com across as offensive in any way.
 
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