What do you Think about Xion?

[HeartSeams]

You still didn't tell me which other bosses Xion one hit-KO'd.
I think that's a kind of a good example for what I'm trying to say here. :\

Mostly because I didn't care enough, and you pointed out the ones I was thinking of anyway.

 

[Smile]

Mostly because I didn't care enough, and you pointed out the ones I was thinking of anyway.

But those were ones she justifyably "one hit KO'd". And you still raised the point to base her "Mary Sue"ness afterward despite it being not a legitimate reason since both Xion and Roxas fought those bosses prior.
No giving of slack, whatsoever.

 

[HeartSeams]

But those were ones she justifyably "one hit KO'd".

I don't think the second one was justifiable at all. You don't even have to hit the boss once and she will still one hit KO it. And if I remember right the scene that follows has Roxas panting from the battle and Xion is perfectly fine because she's just -that- Deus Ex Machina.

And i fail to see how this connects with my previous statement that, had she been written well, people would have accepted her regardless of her "fanfic"-esque nature.

 

[tehmuffinmon]

One of the reasons I enjoy the KH series is because it has essentially become like fanfiction over the years.
The plot has become so convoluted that little surprises or dissapoints me anymore, haha. And I mean that in a good way! It keeps me engaged and appeals to the imagination, even when certain elements or dialog comes across as fanfic-y. Although the "X-blade" was a bit odd, I admit.
Anyway, more to the point, I like Xion. I originally didn't care one way or another, but the more I played Days, I grew fond of her. She was kind of hard to get a feel for until nearing the end of the game, but still. And if it wasn't for her, there'd be no Xion's theme, and I love that song.

 

[riku_kicks_butt]

Honestly. Shes one of my favorite characters from the series. so much mystery

 

[HeartSeams]

Honestly. Shes one of my favorite characters from the series. so much mystery

She's been pretty demystified by this point though...

 

[Smile]

I don't think the second one was justifiable at all. You don't even have to hit the boss once and she will still one hit KO it.

That's up to you. They still did fight the thing together though.

And if I remember right the scene that follows has Roxas panting from the battle and Xion is perfectly fine because she's just -that- Deus Ex Machina.

Ho yes. Because the plot deeming that she's seeping away Roxas's powers makes her a Deus Ex Machina in that scene.
Yeesh.

And i fail to see how this connects with my previous statement that, had she been written well, people would have accepted her regardless of her "fanfic"-esque nature.

Only you keep arguing that something that has quite a high level of legitimacy is "fanfic"-esque. Xion took down bosses when they were worn out. What's wrong with that?

She's been pretty demystified by this point though...

I think the mess is just beginning. And people like bringing up the "Ven" issues that was never raised enough in Days. That's still a mystery, both in regards to Roxas and Xion.

 

[HeartSeams]

Ho yes. Because the plot deeming that she's seeping away Roxas's powers makes her a Deus Ex Machina in that scene.
Yeesh.

Even if there is an explanation to it, it's pretty hard not to admit that it comes off as Deus Ex Machina. Especially since this explanation is mostly tucked away in a Japanese Manual many will never read.

Only you keep arguing that something that has quite a high level of legitimacy is "fanfic"-esque. Xion took down bosses when they were worn out. What's wrong with that?

Like I said, if she had been written well, there would be nothing wrong with it. But she still is overpowered. The boss in question for example, at most you can maybe get it down to 75-50% health before the cutscene kill happens, but that still means that in a single swipe Xion managed to do what took you the entire battle length to do in a second. No matter what, that will come off as "fanfic-y". And I mean, that is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Xion's issues as a fan-fic character. But, again, if she had been written well, it wouldn't have been much of a problem.

I for one never held Xion's fan-ficness against her before playing the games. When I heard the 14th member thing, I was fine with it. I like to think that even if people use similar ideas, it's still interesting to see what they do with it differently. I was looking forward to seeing Nomura's take on the "14th member" idea. What would be the twists? What happened to her? etc. And even when I saw some of the Japanese cutscenes like her death and her fight against Riku I still liked her, was possibly liking her even more. But then I played the game and she just wasn't written well enough to sell it to me. How is that she can kill an enemy in a single swipe, taking around 75% of its health? The plot explanation is that she was taking Roxas' power, but... even Roxas has never been that powerful. So, how does that make sense at all?

I'm okay with fan-fic like elements if they are executed well. I don't find much of Xion to have been executed well.

I think the mess is just beginning. And people like bringing up the "Ven" issues that was never raised enough in Days. That's still a mystery, both in regards to Roxas and Xion.

Doubtlessly, they will never be addressed.

 

[Smile]

The plot explanation is that she was taking Roxas' power, but... even Roxas has never been that powerful. So, how does that make sense at all?

Sora's own powers coming into play through the Memories she was absorbing. Tapping into Ven's "reserviours". And I'm sure there are other such options.

Doubtlessly, they will never be addressed.

Time will tell.

 

[HeartSeams]

Sora's own powers coming into play through the Memories she was absorbing. Tapping into Ven's "reserviours". And I'm sure there are other such options.

And this is partly why I think it was poorly executed.

 

[Smile]

And this is partly why I think it was poorly executed.

The part where we don't know for sure or what?

 

[HeartSeams]

The part where we don't know for sure or what?

The fact that it is so contrived and for no real greater purpose. What good did giving Xion powers that are hard to explain do for the plot? Aside from showing how "wow" she is, it didn't really do much. So much about Xion is contrived for no purpose. The fact she looks different depending on who looks at her, that she is absorbing memories from Roxas who absorbs them from Sora, that she somehow absorbed Riku's memories, that she and Roxas work like a yo-yo in powers, that she is by far the worst replica I've ever seen. It's just... uh. It's like they decided something made too much sense so then they cranked it up to 11 just so it can be convoluted or "mysterious".

The "looks different depending on who looks at her" thing alone is ridiculous. Nothing in the history of KH had anything working like that, and it doesn't even really make much sense in the game itself. So, because Xion is an imperfect Replica she now has the ability to look completely different to every person? That makes no sense. Neither does the "Kairi that Sora remembers thing". I didn't realize Sora remembered Kairi as having Black hair and really bad bangs.

It's just... grating.

Honestly, they should have just introduced her as a normal Nobody, or, if they really wanted to avoid that, as a complete being. Her inevitable death could still be sad, she could still influence Roxas, she could still wake Ven's Keyblade inside of him, but all of the other aspects of her that made Days ridiculous would be gone. I mean obviously they would've had to think up some different plot points, but largely, the bigger picture would still be there and it would be a whole lot less contrived.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

And what would've been the point in that? About the only ones who had any real relevance to the proper Sora-oriented plot went away to CoM early on in the game. I doubt anyone in the Org would've been stupid enough to discuss their plots in the Gray Area though so no, no birds to throw stones at there.

I wasn't talking about plot-oriented conversations, unless you want them to be stupid. In fact, it would have been better if everyone was aware of what Xion was sans Demyx cause it's Demyx (even though most of them did anyway), and played it off excruciatingly well. Or perhaps were ordered to do certain tasks when concerning their missions with Roxas, with some ideas even self-cooked, good intentions or bad (not everyone was an asshole to Roxas, really). Heck, no one, not even the main character, had to be in the room when there were private discussions that the audience could see between members, which was the gem of CoM. That's what I'm referring too. And I'm coming up with these brain storms without even trying, without any thought to it. The professional team behind a series couldn't do the same?

Surprise surprise, I'm with dest on this one.
"Supposed to"? Who are you to decide how the games' creators were "supposed" to write a certain character? Or a plot line?
The fact many people were expecting something else doesn't mean that was how they were "supposed" to write it. And I find it eternally ironic that you hold Xion against Kanemaki but the rest of it's good in your eyes.
I guess this is where NOMURA comes in and decides what of the novels made it into the game. Since he took quite the active part in the actual writing of this one.

In a surprising twist, Davrax spoke what I tried to mean for me. They did not take the chances they could have with them. But, honestly, what do you mean by "the rest"? I don't think anything's good in 358/2 Days save selected scenes, the game play, and Mission Mode. I don't excuse Nomura either - I can't take him seriously as a director anymore.

And yet she already explains something in Coded. I'll take that over explaining anything in KH2 when she was introduced in game that was released after that any day.

I rather not jump to conclusions when it comes to that one, especially when Roxas was involved in that process. It's just sort of funny that now she suddenly exists in the sequel events without ever being made a note of previously. And, really, it doesn't defeat the fact that her actual reason for creation as a character was pretty much naught. First impressions stick. Xion didn't give everyone a good one, even when it was over.

This is actually what I've been saying for forever - Xion too could've been expanded upon more and elaborated on further. Hence, I deem her a victim, not the cause. And seeing how I was disappointed with the last game that came before it (KH2) and the one that came after it (BBS), yeah, I think I'm spying a pattern here.
Days just gave me the character-orientation I love so much.

And as I keep saying - I'd sooner blame that on how they wrote Roxas. Whether it was true or false, Nomura said Xion's concept of "the girl his age that got Roxas to leave the Organization" was there since KH2. Excuse me if I think that the problem here isn't in Xion being introduced, but rather - that she's part of the solution.
I mean it - we could've seen even more of the Organization. We could've seen more of Namine, Diz and Riku, and yes, the time Riku and Xion ran away together.
But instead we got emblem missions and Roxas sitting alone on the balcony.
I doubt their priorities were set up right, but on a whole lot basicer level than what you think. The problem here wasn't so much Xion being introduced but that Roxas was a completely passive protagonist. Sora was an obssessed brat in CoM; he was a completely passive paw in CoM but the insight they gave of him to us was important. And even when he ran away from Donald and Goofy, we got insight and development with him.
Not so much the case with Roxas but... I really can't blame Xion being introduced here when some of his angst bursts weren't about only her if about her at all - they were about Axel as well, leading me to believe yet again Roxas is the problem here. He didn't have enough substance, as much as his overall character development might be pleasing from an Eagle's point of view way up high there.

This in a nutshell is where I believe so much of the Days hate comes from -
It's not even that the game was particularily worse than any other installment in the series - it just wasn't what the fans were expecting and they refuse to realize that maybe they should compromise those expectations.
The Org WERE expanded upon and developed - as much as side characters, what they've been since being introduced in KH2, merits.
There WERE plot lines aside from Xion's direct one. Any lack of development in that aspect is one of the only reasons to be dissatisfied with Days that I agree with - being that it could've been better had it been released after BBS. But that's once more Nomura's fault rather than Xion's own, and even then I can't say they did absolutely nothing with this.

As not too big of an Org fan, my checklist, which I like bringing up, was as following:
[ ] Xion
[ ] Riku
[ ] Namine as guest star
[ ] How Axel became KH2-Axel from CoM-Axel
I got them all marked down with rather high levels of satisfaction.
And I never read the novels and I never wanted too much Org, unlike a lot of people who dislike Xion.

Even more? You can't be serious. That's what brings down the game to some people. Xion was elaborated and expanded on enough, if you ask me. Perhaps it's because you like her, but I've certainly got a good, negative haul out of it and would rather have her remain dead. Most of the things disliked about Days were things Xion, as a character entangled into it the most, brought forth. Without her insertion and need to do everything possible to make her look "important" (ugh, so obvious. Wtf was up with this writing? They couldn't even obscure it?), things could have gone differently. Less contrived and forced in. I can blame the writing all I want, but in the end, the writing's what makes someone accept a story or character. It's not like we see what's behind-the-scenes - we see what's being presented. If it's disappointing, then it's disappointing. Xion was a core part of it, and therefore, blamed just as much. I actually find it interesting you're willing to put her faults unto the staff, rather than herself. And yet, you can't do the same for Kairi. At least, it doesn't stop you from hating her.

So there goes that one.

Back to the whole paragraph, however, the Organization could be excused in KH2 as side characters (they aren't even side characters here). However, basing the setting on the castle they live in and who Roxas sees every single day of the week doesn't make them irrelevant this time. Especially since most of the gigabytes and months are wasted...with nothing of interest. I mean, it was Sora's journey and game in KH2. What's their half-assed excuse for 358/2 Days when you're basically surrounded by them? Other written works for the series can fulfill depth into the members in less than a minute by just one simple sentence. It's not like everyone was asking for the whole nine-yards here, just some more background. They couldn't even achieve that.

You know, it's sort of hilarious that Nomura had "the girl his age that got Roxas to leave the Organization", when it wasn't even hinted upon, interviews or otherwise. Actually, when asked this very same question in the past, he said that recurring dreams of Sora, and something of Axel, not "another crucial factor" or some similar mysterious Nomura-esque words, were the cause. And that's what we got. In KH2 and 358/2 Days. Roxas' reason in the end was about himself and his identity. Except that now it looks awkward that Xion isn't mentioned when Axel stated he was defecting as they can't retcon that scene, hah, yeah. Hell, I think even Xion made Roxas do the opposite of leaving. I feel if Nomura had it in his head since the beginning it would have flowed better when we got the flashbacks, make the scene more open-ended for a chance to maybe or not develop that.

It...wasn't the case.

And Roxas was never a passive character. Why do you think people are making such a big deal of it? If he didn't do anything at all, and sat his ass fiddling his fingers, others wouldn't bat an eyelash as to why he's doing so. What was shown in the past in Deep Dive makes him appear very determined and certain about his decision, and obviously bitter about it. It was like he chose this path by his very own volition, in the same way he fought Riku. Slaps on the wrists for anyone who were ready to see what Roxas, being the anti-hero and "main character" of this game, was about to bring - to see what the kid would do that was worthwhile. I doubt any of us even predicted that he would act like a newborn (though that isn't a fault, as they could have developed his mind set in context). The fact of the matter was that in 358/2 Days, he was made to be passive to fit in the criteria of the plot (Xion) they decided to go with. They said she was crucial, etc., and if everything Xion did was passed to Roxas, there will be no point of her existence. In irony, the fact that Roxas could have done those things makes her have no point in existing anyway. They couldn't have two people running around mirroring each other. If Xion wasn't made in 358/2 Days, what do you think they will have Roxas do? The same thing he did in what was given? Doubtful. Very doubtful. As you can't make a game out of that. It will be over in a about a second. It seems Roxas originally was suppose to be the one to interact with Riku, if we take that other Nomura interview. So yeah, I don't believe that this was because Roxas didn't have substance (especially when other installments don't have a problem doing so). Like the Organization, they just chose to go the opposite direction and keep wasting potential, after potential, after potential. And all to fit the shiny new toy in.

I don't think we need to accept the fact that the game failed to meet our expectations. Why should we? As the consumers, a game needs to makes us feel like we are getting what was advertised, or makes us feel satisfied for the overall work even if they didn't meet those expectations. This didn't happen, and because of this, it was heavily criticized instead, and it made half the fandom or some statistic there to hate a character we were suppose to what? Like? Feel pity for? I don't know. I took a chance to see what Xion brought - I thought it was worse than the conclusions I made before I ever played.

It was badly executed, that's all there is to it.

 

[Smile]

It's just sort of funny that now she suddenly exists in the sequel events without ever being made a note of previously.

Because Namine existing in KH2 after being introduced in CoM without being mentioned in KH1 is bad why?

I actually find it interesting you're willing to put her faults unto the staff, rather than herself. And yet, you can't do the same for Kairi. At least, it doesn't stop you from hating her.

Oh I blame Kairi's wasted plot potential more than enough on the staff. You wrote a character who's part of the leading trio and you can't even give her proper insight and depth, and keep her as a patheticly passive plot device? What gives?
The difference is that what we do get to see of Kairi as a person I don't like. And that's the difference.

Other written works for the series can fulfill depth into the members in less than a minute by just one simple sentence. It's not like everyone was asking for the whole nine-yards here, just some more background. They couldn't even achieve that.

What would've been the relevant, sans fanservice character development? What good would give you Luxord's background achieve? On the grander level. Unless he was somehow some incarnation that related to the bigger plot - something I doubt - they'd have had no reason to include it in the game.
The novels don't have that obligation to remain plot-oriented so they can give you extra stuff. The games, less so.
I mean, even in CoM it's not like we found out about the Org members' backgrounds, or hell - even why Marluxia really wanted to take over the Organization (Replica program aside, it was because he really was displeased with the "management" and not just because he was power hungry. That's a gem of character development right there).

I feel if Nomura had it in his head since the beginning it would have flowed better when we got the flashbacks, make the scene more open-ended for a chance to maybe or not develop that.

Yeah, I don't really feel that. Nothing really contradicts. Xion did indeed get Roxas to leave the Organization since she brought all the doubts the kid should have up to the surface. You might be dissatisfied with Xion being a proxy through which those doubts got to Roxas from Riku, but the fact remains Nomura didn't contradict himself in that regard. Roxas left the Organization BECAUSE of Xion - not FOR Xion. That's quite a big difference right there.

The fact of the matter was that in 358/2 Days, he was made to be passive to fit in the criteria of the plot (Xion) they decided to go with.

And that is where not only do our opinions split paths, but it once again supports my point about expectations. I never expected any of what you said about Roxas. Badass? Bitter? Agressive? I never thought he was like that THE ENTIRE TIME HE WAS IN THE ORGANIZATION. Granted at the end he was and that's why he left, but no one ever said he was like that at the get-go or even somewhere along the way. That would be quite contradictory to his origins, as wlel, being of, lo and behold, two happy-go-lucky puppy-type people.

In irony, the fact that Roxas could have done those things makes her have no point in existing anyway

could've. But as someone who, Xion or not, sees nothing wrong with Roxas's characterization in Days (egg and chicken, I know).

As you can't make a game out of that.

And that's where I say Xion was put in whereas you say she was the cause. We've been through this.

if we take that other Nomura interview.

Stuff like that really makes me go with HeartSeams's The Author is Dead Approach xD And I am happy I stopped in time for Re:Coded and 3D <3

(especially when other installments don't have a problem doing so)

The only other installment I've seen that had Roxas in so far was KH2 and aside from being a forcibly tragic character who then went away (where did I hear that one before? Oh right...) Roxas didn't have all that much substance to him. Granted it changed how some of the Organization members treated him, but they'd have came after him regardless for the Keyblade. About the biggest difference this would've caused was that Kairi might not have been kidnapped by Axel but who's to say she wouldn't have been kidnapped anyway for the Organization's sake to "feed Sora's anger" and get him to chase them more?
Suddenly KH2 Roxas doesn't have all that much substance to him either, if you ask me.

Like the Organization, they just chose to go the opposite direction and keep wasting potential, after potential, after potential. And all to fit the shiny new toy in.

And aside from saying yet again that I liked what they did with Luxord, Demyx and Xaldin, I've nothing else to add. Wasn't expecting the grand things you did so I wasn't disappointed.

As the consumers, a game needs to makes us feel like we are getting what was advertised

I'd have somewhat agreed, but... dude. One trailer was enough to know that what was advertised was a Xion game.

 

[8298906]

But... NOMURA's story didn't live up to YOUR expectations

Yea I should because as the one who'll be wasting their time and money on the game I better feel as of I'm getting my moneys worth. Nomura doesn't write the game for himself he writes it for me, for you, for the fans and one wrong thing can turn off a lot of buyers. In which it did. Look at the Xion CC member list, go to we hate Xion page on Facebook, & the hate are all over the web. And I've seen so many bad reviews for this game it mite not get a remake unlike the other games.

And people often think just because Nomura's the creator he's knows what's best for the series which is not entirely true. Look at Kairi everyone would agree that there are things wrong with her but by your logic since she's NOMURA'S character written in HIS story and the fact she doesn't reach YOUR expectations then that's your fault.huff. Nomura need to write a story that would be in our interests but at the same time he enjoys writing & if he's not imaginative enough to do that well we're in deep doo doo.

"Supposed to"? Who are you to decide how the games' creators were "supposed" to write a certain character? Or a plot line?

Like I said before they need to make the story ride to OUR interest and the demographic that says Days=Failure basically shows it didn't.

Roxas was a completely passive protagonist

Was Roxas passive when he was accused of being a picture theaf? Was he passive when Sifer and his gang bulled him? Were he passive when mysterious people persuaded him? No! He proved his innocence, fought back and tried to find out why those people were there. Hell his six day prologe had more plot than Sora's whole journey in KH2. So don't just sit there and say Roxas was a passive protagonist because Days!Roxas was.

 

[Davrax]

Nomura doesn't write the game for himself he writes it for me, for you, for the fans

This is a notion I've pondered on and off for many years and I don't have a conclusive answer to it.
Just because you pay for art does that mean the artist is working for you? Is an artist obligated to give you what you want?
It's a series of questions with no easy answer, and I doubt you'll find much consensus about it.

 

[Smile]

Nomura doesn't write the game for himself he writes it for me, for you, for the fans

Sweet. But that's where the problem in this argument falls flat because you and I want different things which makes this entire issue the big problem that it is.

And I've seen so many bad reviews for this game it mite not get a remake unlike the other games.

About the biggest reason I see for a remake for Coded is to send it overseas. And CoM came in a bundle.
The others were "final mixes".
Semantic-nitpickiness.

And people often think just because Nomura's the creator he's knows what's best for the series which is not entirely true.

I never said he did. Otherwise I think he would've put more into the Organization with or without Xion around, and possibly not have made thirteen of them.
And Kairi is another good example you raised yourself. But... that's part of the thing. He can never please everyone because everyone expects different things. And depending on who expects what, people get pleased or disappointed.

Like I said before they need to make the story ride to OUR interest and the demographic that says Days=Failure basically shows it didn't.

The demographic voted Xion as 2009's best new Nintendo character. So I guess it rode to quite a few fans' interests.
Way I see it, this is a good case of "where you hang out at".

Was Roxas passive when he was accused of being a picture theaf? Was he passive when Sifer and his gang bulled him? Were he passive when mysterious people persuaded him?

On the larger plot level?
Yes.
Regardless of what Roxas did in the Virtual Twilight Town, nothing changed. He was mind-wiped and had no way to escape. It's like the tiny bit of insight we got of Kairi at the end of KH2. Was it nice to see the character? To some, perhaps. Did it make her to be any bigger a plot device than she was before, or a more active one?
Not really, no.

Just because you pay for art does that mean the artist is working for you? Is an artist obligated to give you what you want?

You didn't get an answer because you're asking the wrong questions. There are two types of art you pay money for.
The first one is - you walk into a gallery, see something you like, and you buy it. You might see something else by the same artist sometime later. If you'll like it, you'll buy it. If you won't, you don't buy if, and the artist had no obligation to cater to your interests because that's his art and style.
The second one is - art you came to the artist, told him what you wanted, how you wanted it, where and when, and you paid him to create that art. THEN if you're dissatisfied, you've the right to not pay him or demand he remade the piece.

While Nomura does seem to take into consideration certain demographics' opinions, that is of his own choice, not his obligation. He falls under the first category.

 

[Davrax]

Well I figured that commissions would be omitted from what I was talking about. That's clearly a different case.

Is a band barred from experimenting because the fans want them to make the same album over and over? Again, no easy answers.

 

[Smile]

Is a band barred from experimenting because the fans want them to make the same album over and over? Again, no easy answers.

No. I believe it was Linkin park that released recently a new album that sold less because they experimented something different. The fans may be disappointed but it seems they were much more intelligent than a lot of KH fans -
They just didn't buy the thing.

 

[Maxyli138]

Xion's character is a little confusing at times and i dont really understand the point of creating her if shes just gonna die and be forgotten at the end of the game and if they do bring her back in later games what would she even do?