What do you Think about Xion?

[Smile]

One of the biggest differences between CoM and Days though is that CoM was contained 1) within a month, 2) within a single world and even inside that world it's not like you had too much exploration. It was "waiting rooms" between Memory floors. Also, unlike with the Org members outside of the castle who not only had various worlds to explore, the CoM Org members had several specific points of interest that focused further once Sora and Riku made it into the castle.
It's more comparable to Saix and Axel and their own little plot, or the Xigbar-Xemnas-Saix meetings in regards to the Replica program. But that still leaves us with quite a hefty amount of time (a year compared to about a month, if nothing else) in which the different Org members just did their own thing, never once coming together. It's kind of hard to bring relevance to such characters without losing track of stuff.
Marluxia, Axel and Larxene were a team.
Lexaeus, Vexen and Ienzo for the most part were a team. So it was easier giving them insight, screen time and attention because you got three birds down at one stone.
Not so much the case in Days where the only way to really give insight about anyone is to have Roxas go out on missions with him.

And I don't really see how structure wise, Xion and Namine are that different. Instead of having fake Memories to make him care like Sora, Roxas actually established his own friendship with Xion. The plot mayhem started once she went missing but by then, it really is like Namine and Sora - Roxas chasing Xion while Xion does her own thing and at this point in CoM we got noticeably more of Namine as well.
It's just that RAX's relationship-basis was shown on-screen while for Sora, Repliku and Namine we were TOLD they had a basis to behave in such a manner.

 

[jazumin-chan]

I think that Xion is pretty annoying and can be a bit clingy at times, and evem though I don't really like her, she is kinda essential to the plot of Kingdom Hearts, because if Xion wasn't even in Kingdom Hearts, then things would have gone very differently and Roxas probably wouldn't have run away from the Organization and so on...

Valid point. I never thought of that. And if he didn't run away, then KH2 would run way differently. I mean, I guess Nomura cleared up that area well.

 

[HeartSeams]

Valid point. I never thought of that. And if he didn't run away, then KH2 would run way differently. I mean, I guess Nomura cleared up that area well.

Except Roxas himself says in Days that his running away wasn't even about Xion anymore. Roxas would have ran away anyway.

 

[yoh]

Xions not that bad but shes kinda crazy

 

[Davrax]

Except Roxas himself says in Days that his running away wasn't even about Xion anymore. Roxas would have ran away anyway.

I don't think he would have been quite as furious at the Organization, though.

 

[8298906]

Reading the novels, reading the manga, reading what other authors do except the actual official staff themselves makes me realize how unimaginative they are. That's not Organization XIII's fault.

SMH
Agreed. A story is how you(the creator of said story) make it a character is built to the design you gave it. If your story fail or the characters don't reach your expectations that's your fault. That's like a baker getting made because the cake they baked isn't sweet enough. It's not the cakes fault it's the person that baked it, so I don't blame the org for their so called short comings and lacking. I blame who ever the hell is writing them at that point in time.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

One of the biggest differences between CoM and Days though is that CoM was contained 1) within a month, 2) within a single world and even inside that world it's not like you had too much exploration. It was "waiting rooms" between Memory floors. Also, unlike with the Org members outside of the castle who not only had various worlds to explore, the CoM Org members had several specific points of interest that focused further once Sora and Riku made it into the castle.
It's more comparable to Saix and Axel and their own little plot, or the Xigbar-Xemnas-Saix meetings in regards to the Replica program. But that still leaves us with quite a hefty amount of time (a year compared to about a month, if nothing else) in which the different Org members just did their own thing, never once coming together. It's kind of hard to bring relevance to such characters without losing track of stuff.
Marluxia, Axel and Larxene were a team.
Lexaeus, Vexen and Ienzo for the most part were a team. So it was easier giving them insight, screen time and attention because you got three birds down at one stone.
Not so much the case in Days where the only way to really give insight about anyone is to have Roxas go out on missions with him.

You make it seem like CoM was full of only three people in each scene. They had their own scenes, and those with other people. That's a better description to the actual events. Even in 358/2 Days, they were sitting down in the lobby, and some members were close together enough to talk, and "knock three down in one stone". They just weren't made a point of. The novel actually succeeded in this, so don't tell me it wasn't possible. It doesn't defeat the point I made before that they simply didn't choose to write the Organization the way they were suppose to. No, they decided to go with 24/7 ice cream scenes. And spent the majority of the time focusing on a new character that didn't even need to be there or even be made to explain anything in the first place sack dab in the middle of a year where it was suppose to exist.

You're basically referencing the result as it is now, not what could have been. And there was potential. Heck, even the Replica Program aspect could have had them integrated if they were creative.

And I don't really see how structure wise, Xion and Namine are that different. Instead of having fake Memories to make him care like Sora, Roxas actually established his own friendship with Xion. The plot mayhem started once she went missing but by then, it really is like Namine and Sora - Roxas chasing Xion while Xion does her own thing and at this point in CoM we got noticeably more of Namine as well.
It's just that RAX's relationship-basis was shown on-screen while for Sora, Repliku and Namine we were TOLD they had a basis to behave in such a manner.

The way they are handled are different. The whole game didn't completely focus on Naminé, her needs, her wants, what she does every second, what other characters think she does every second, what her woes are all the time, etc. It was all gradual, and it was still enough to understand her and what she was feeling in those few scenes. Riku Replica, who wasn't even centered on that much, did the same thing. It speaks to me when an installment gets you tied to those characters in terms of comprehending them without taking over the spotlight in a very annoying way. And it still felt like it was Sora's game, as he was also included into the plot as much as everyone was. And it was his development, actions, decisions, drive, and character that we followed. Not Xi-erm, Naminé's. He didn't sit there and stayed doing nothing thinking "OH WOEZ MY MIND IS BEING WEIRDED".

Days just failed. It being a soap opera of angst doesn't save it.

I don't think he would have been quite as furious at the Organization, though.

He was never shown to be that furious originally anyway when you look back in KH2 :/. It seems he was mad at them, especially at Axel, for keeping his identity and everything else a secret, realizing they weren't good people, and that even his best friend couldn't tell him the truth. I mean, it's not like when he remembered he was in the Organization he was like "THOSE FACKING BITCHES KILLED MY BFF!" Nope. Which is another reason why they had to plot excuse Xion being forgotten. It gives a sense of not buying into that bull when it's so damn obvious.

And judging by a previous Nomura interview, it appeared Roxas was going back to meet Riku, or it was Riku that summoned him over. Something was up between them, but now we'll never know. Scenes together of the two were sacrificed for Xion instead.

And it sounded much more interesting too, expanding on a connection of two previous established characters.

 

[destinykh]

It doesn't defeat the point I made before that they simply didn't choose to write the Organization the way they were suppose to.

Just a little nitpick: The way they were SUPPOSED to? Like you said before to me (but at that time it was regarding Kairi), Nomura CHOSE this road to go down with most of the Org, making them background characters with fleshed out personalities even if their histories are not so much (something I would like to see too, don't get me wrong, it's just that such things are irrelevant to Roxas). And the ones that are relevant, DO make the cut. But yes I agree that that should have been elaborated more, but as Smile said too much would have spoiled future titles. Who are we to decide how big a role the other Org members play? Only a few of them have actual connections to Ven/Roxas, the rest are simply coworkers. This was already established in KH2, why should that change now? In fact if anything Days already dug a little deeper into the rest of the Org's interaction with Roxas, with a few little tidbits thrown in (Axel and Saix's little conspiracy thing). Anything more than that will simply be in fanservice territory.

You're basically referencing the result as it is now, not what could have been. And there was potential. Heck, even the Replica Program aspect could have had them integrated if they were creative.

My feelings to this are summed up by your own reply to me:

It's alright to feel that Nomura could have done something with what he had, and that fans have more creative abilities than he could muster. But that's what it is: imagination. We're the market, not the staff. We don't work with Nomura to say add this, or add that. Just like any other game, anime, show, cartoon. There are many, many things the audience wishes for that never go through. That doesn't mean we should block what we're given and hate the idea because what we want isn't being woven into the plot. Lingering on "what ifs" or "could have beens" isn't going to make things any better. That's my main point.

I am sympathetic to your hatred for Days and Xion, which I feel are very valid despite being a Xion lover myself, but some of the reasons you used to hate on her, well I wouldn't have a problem with it (as I understand your disappointment and your wishes for potential to be utilized) if you hadn't called out on some of us for hating on specific other elements of the series for the exact same reasons. You're being hypocritical. :\

The whole game didn't completely focus on Naminé, her needs, her wants, what she does every second, what other characters think she does every second, what her woes are all the time, etc.

Difference is? Xion is the protagonist, Namine is the damsel in distress. A well written damsel/plot device, but a supporting character nevertheless. So of course this game would completely focus on Xion's needs, wants (but I think that's way exaggerated, there are still large chunks missing in her story). Hate Xion for eclipsing Roxas as the protagonist of a game hyped to be Roxas's story, don't hate her for being just that, a protagonist.

 

[Davrax]

I've been trying to imagine Days without Xion, and pretty much all you have left is Roxas angsting about not knowing anything. Xion helped him focus on something else.
And, also, I don't think he would have stayed with the organization for as long as he did if he didn't have Xion keeping him there. He got pretty disillusioned with Axel in not all that long.

 

[HeartSeams]

I've been trying to imagine Days without Xion, and pretty much all you have left is Roxas angsting about not knowing anything.

I don't know, this fic seems to be doing a decent job:
The Other 358 Days Chapter 1: DAY 001, a Kingdom Hearts fanfic - FanFiction.Net

 

[Davrax]

I don't know, this fic seems to be doing a decent job:
The Other 358 Days Chapter 1: DAY 001, a Kingdom Hearts fanfic - FanFiction.Net

If you think I'm going to read that whole thing just to reply to you you've got another thing coming. xD

I'll admit, though, I'm liking the dialogue between the members. Well, not necessarily that dialogue, just that there's more of it than in Days.

 

[HeartSeams]

If you think I'm going to read that whole thing just to reply to you you've got another thing coming. xD.

I didn't really expect you to. I'm just saying, in imaginative hands, anything can be made interesting. It's like the saying goes "There are no boring subjects, only boring writers". It is quite possible that Days could have been made without Xion and without Roxas angsting all over the place and still be compelling.

 

[Davrax]

I didn't really expect you to. I'm just saying, in imaginative hands, anything can be made interesting. It's like the saying goes "There are no boring subjects, only boring writers". It is quite possible that Days could have been made without Xion and without Roxas angsting all over the place and still be compelling.

I'll give you that.

I don't think it's so much that Xion ruined anything, but that the writers used her as an excuse to be lazy. Or something.
I mean, we don't have backgrounds on four of the members and many others aren't well-developed. That's a friggin' gold mine of untapped narrative.
And I still don't know what made Lea give in to darkness. I was totally looking forward to that and nobody's delivered yet.

But yeah, anyway. I still don't think Xion was bad for Days just by existing.

 

[Smile]

I don't know, this fic seems to be doing a decent job:

And yet Xion being a "fanfic character" is part of the hate, is it not?

If your story fail or the characters don't reach your expectations that's your fault

But... NOMURA's story didn't live up to YOUR expectations, I'm not even gonna say the fans since some of us like Xion. So... if anything, it's YOUR fault for expecting something else and refusing to let go of it. I'm not saying it's wrong to be disappointed, I just really don't see where a lot of those expectations come from aside from the same novels author who gave us Xion to begin with *derp*

You make it seem like CoM was full of only three people in each scene. They had their own scenes, and those with other people. That's a better description to the actual events. Even in 358/2 Days, they were sitting down in the lobby, and some members were close together enough to talk, and "knock three down in one stone"

And what would've been the point in that? About the only ones who had any real relevance to the proper Sora-oriented plot went away to CoM early on in the game. I doubt anyone in the Org would've been stupid enough to discuss their plots in the Gray Area though so no, no birds to throw stones at there.

It doesn't defeat the point I made before that they simply didn't choose to write the Organization the way they were suppose to.

Surprise surprise, I'm with dest on this one.
"Supposed to"? Who are you to decide how the games' creators were "supposed" to write a certain character? Or a plot line?
The fact many people were expecting something else doesn't mean that was how they were "supposed" to write it. And I find it eternally ironic that you hold Xion against Kanemaki but the rest of it's good in your eyes.
I guess this is where NOMURA comes in and decides what of the novels made it into the game. Since he took quite the active part in the actual writing of this one.

And spent the majority of the time focusing on a new character that didn't even need to be there or even be made to explain anything in the first place sack dab in the middle of a year where it was suppose to exist.

And yet she already explains something in Coded. I'll take that over explaining anything in KH2 when she was introduced in game that was released after that any day.

You're basically referencing the result as it is now, not what could have been. And there was potential. Heck, even the Replica Program aspect could have had them integrated if they were creative.

This is actually what I've been saying for forever - Xion too could've been expanded upon more and elaborated on further. Hence, I deem her a victim, not the cause. And seeing how I was disappointed with the last game that came before it (KH2) and the one that came after it (BBS), yeah, I think I'm spying a pattern here.
Days just gave me the character-orientation I love so much.

He didn't sit there and stayed doing nothing thinking "OH WOEZ MY MIND IS BEING WEIRDED".

And as I keep saying - I'd sooner blame that on how they wrote Roxas. Whether it was true or false, Nomura said Xion's concept of "the girl his age that got Roxas to leave the Organization" was there since KH2. Excuse me if I think that the problem here isn't in Xion being introduced, but rather - that she's part of the solution.
I mean it - we could've seen even more of the Organization. We could've seen more of Namine, Diz and Riku, and yes, the time Riku and Xion ran away together.
But instead we got emblem missions and Roxas sitting alone on the balcony.
I doubt their priorities were set up right, but on a whole lot basicer level than what you think. The problem here wasn't so much Xion being introduced but that Roxas was a completely passive protagonist. Sora was an obssessed brat in CoM; he was a completely passive paw in CoM but the insight they gave of him to us was important. And even when he ran away from Donald and Goofy, we got insight and development with him.
Not so much the case with Roxas but... I really can't blame Xion being introduced here when some of his angst bursts weren't about only her if about her at all - they were about Axel as well, leading me to believe yet again Roxas is the problem here. He didn't have enough substance, as much as his overall character development might be pleasing from an Eagle's point of view way up high there.

This in a nutshell is where I believe so much of the Days hate comes from -
It's not even that the game was particularily worse than any other installment in the series - it just wasn't what the fans were expecting and they refuse to realize that maybe they should compromise those expectations.
The Org WERE expanded upon and developed - as much as side characters, what they've been since being introduced in KH2, merits.
There WERE plot lines aside from Xion's direct one. Any lack of development in that aspect is one of the only reasons to be dissatisfied with Days that I agree with - being that it could've been better had it been released after BBS. But that's once more Nomura's fault rather than Xion's own, and even then I can't say they did absolutely nothing with this.

As not too big of an Org fan, my checklist, which I like bringing up, was as following:
[ ] Xion
[ ] Riku
[ ] Namine as guest star
[ ] How Axel became KH2-Axel from CoM-Axel
I got them all marked down with rather high levels of satisfaction.
And I never read the novels and I never wanted too much Org, unlike a lot of people who dislike Xion.

 

[Davrax]

I think the "supposed to" was just a poor choice of words.
Maybe she meant "they simply didn't choose to write the Organization the most engaging way they could have."

 

[HeartSeams]

And yet Xion being a "fanfic character" is part of the hate, is it not?

I don't think so. I mean, if she had been written well, people probably wouldn't have cared that she was "fanfic-y". Like, the X-Blade. For me, I think that is a really "fanfic"-like idea, but I don't mind it because its inclusion in BBS was written well enough for me. Of course, it's different for everyone.

 

[Davrax]

I don't think so. I mean, if she had been written well, people probably wouldn't have cared that she was "fanfic-y". Like, the X-Blade. For me, I think that is a really "fanfic"-like idea, but I don't mind it because its inclusion in BBS was written well enough for me. Of course, it's different for everyone.

I think that goes back to Smile's thought that Xion is the victim of the less-than-ideal writing, and not the cause of it. Or even a symptom of it.

 

[Smile]

I don't think so. I mean, if she had been written well, people probably wouldn't have cared that she was "fanfic-y". Like, the X-Blade. For me, I think that is a really "fanfic"-like idea, but I don't mind it because its inclusion in BBS was written well enough for me. Of course, it's different for everyone.

Most people hated on Xion for even being the 14th member. They never even gave her a chance.

 

[HeartSeams]

Most people hated on Xion for even being the 14th member. They never even gave her a chance.

Yeah, except, I think if the game then blew them away with how amazing she was, they would have changed their minds. But the game didn't, so...

I think that goes back to Smile's thought that Xion is the victim of the less-than-ideal writing, and not the cause of it. Or even a symptom of it.

I think it's more a mix of both.

Honestly, I wish Kanemaki was never invited onto Days.

 

[Smile]

Yeah, except, I think if the game then blew them away with how amazing she was, they would have changed their minds. But the game didn't, so...

You still didn't tell me which other bosses Xion one hit-KO'd.
I think that's a kind of a good example for what I'm trying to say here. :\