Sooo

[Nutari]

Funny, this attitude is exactly what I had in mind when mentioning that this place needs to be more welcoming. I mean, who wants to come here if they'll just be verbally attacked like this. Also, is my opinion any less valid because I'm not a DM regular? Sometimes it helps to get an outside view on things, which is my only intent by posting here.

So thanks for responding; you've done nothing but prove my point. Also I didn't know that rule was already in place; good to know.

That said, Aldrain, no "hard time" was intended; 'twas merely giving my thoughts on the matter.

And I think that more tutorials might help; it would probably save everyone time in the long run to not have to request them.

I presume he was picking on your entering attitude of, "Hey, I got this guys!" When for the higher ups outsiders don't get to come in and call the shots. Which is how you appeared in here. Plus, I don't think you were taking into consideration that I am actually more correct in assuming that most people don't know about sigs. Most people are not part of multiple forums that offer the same amount of versatility as we do. That being said, there are forums that engage in graphic design. But if you look at other forums such as Battlelog, you cannot post pictures into a signature. A lot of forums have no need for that and in turn those members may only be affiliated with forums such as that one.

Anyway, I realize you meant nothing harmful towards me, but don't be so hasty in assuming I am an overconfident, all knowing, teenager. I just happen to be observant. Of course the more 'cultured' members, for lack of a better word, know what we do here. They may not frequent but the know. A majority of new members end up posting in the general creative media section anyway, so their work never get viewed. And honestly, some of it is rather distasteful. WE had a guy show up claiming he made all this stuff, and it was clearly ripped from copyrighted work. Since that time, we haven't had anybody new show up. iDrops has popped in a few times, and some people come here thinking their work goes here, when it goes to the RP section or the CW section.

Some people just don't know what is going on. That's all I am saying. I am not saying they are stupid, they just may be a little oblivious. So, we educate them. The only reason I ever stumbled across the DM section was simply because I wanted to see the SotW entries instead of just the winner, every week.

Which is something that should be re-implemented. I'm unsure just how much bandwidth it sucks up, but showing off the SotW winner at the bottom of the forum page was awesome.

 

[Mirby]

I'm sure tons of new people will come into DM when they see the title of 'beginner tutorial' pop up. Probably a lot of them have wanted to try tagging, but haven't really looked much into it and/or think they're no good at it. By doing this, we'll maybe get them to a confidence level to where they'll want to post their stuff.

Over time, they'll get more and more confident and maybe even become regulars. Others will see this and start entering DM themselves and learning how to tag. More and more people will come in and we'll probably have at least a semi-thriving section again.

So yeah, I'll crank out as many beginner tuts as I can. Is there anyone in DM here who's good at GIMP? I know Geocillin and Aldrain use it, correct? We'll need GIMP tutorials as well, since not everyone is willing to buy/pirate Photoshop.

I think we should also create/remake (IDK if we already have one, I can't remember) a sticky thread that introduces people new to tagging and tells them the basics. Maybe it could also give them links to where they could download GIMP for free or where to get Photoshop, and then give them a ton of beginner packs (which would consist of C4D's, renders, tutorials, brushes, etc...). There could be DM'ers who are in charge of that thread who could answer any questions they have about any graphics stuff and also give critiques on their results to the tuts.

Is anyone else going to make tutorials? I'm sure it'd help a lot if the newbies learned from more than one member. I'm not the most advanced tagger on this forum, either, so we need someone more skilled than me to make tutorials as well.

Also, I like Aldrain's idea; posting on brand new member's profiles and advertising DM. Maybe we could point them towards the shops if they want a set or point them towards the resources section if they want to learn tagging, too?

I also would be willing to give newcomers to KHI a little welcoming gift; like, make them a nice little avatar (KH related, since they probably came here for KH) and welcome them to KHI. Then we could tell them about DM and tell them to come over if they want to request another avatar or signature from us. The kindness and friendly nature will at least make them remember us fondly or consider taking a look at DM.

I think we just need to participate more in the community. The newbie avatar gift idea I stated above might be a good idea to at least let the newer members know/remember we're here.

That sounds good... except for the posting-on-new-member's-profiles bit. It sounds good on paper, but I dunno... I wouldn't like to register, then see a new Visitor Message right away, only to have it amount to HI WELCOME TO THE FORUMS COME TO DIGITAL MEDIA IF YOU WANT AN AVATAR OR TO LEARN ART STUFF. Yeah, mention it in intro threads, that would work. But directly on their profiles... might end up being a bit intrusive, ya know? It's a good idea, don't get me wrong, but it could probably be tweaked a bit more lest it scares more new members off than it attracts.

@Aldrain: Ah, gotcha. Now it makes more sense; the phrasing seemed to imply something that wasn't there, that's all.

Also, outsider though I may be, I was only giving my opinion. And honestly, if you react like that to an outsider's opinion this place probably will remain as it is. After all, I'm sure you all were outsiders at some point in time as well, but you stuck around and now look where you are. If you want activity, you can't be so venomous towards fresh opinions from people who aren't really active in this section. Whether you like to admit it or not, we're all one community. All the boards, be it the Future of KH section, Roleplaying, ANIMALS HAVE NO GOD, or any of the other sections, this is all still one community. And we need to work together to ensure all parts of it work as well as they can.

That's just how I see it though.

 

[Nutari]

That sounds good... except for the posting-on-new-member's-profiles bit. It sounds good on paper, but I dunno... I wouldn't like to register, then see a new Visitor Message right away, only to have it amount to HI WELCOME TO THE FORUMS COME TO DIGITAL MEDIA IF YOU WANT AN AVATAR OR TO LEARN ART STUFF. Yeah, mention it in intro threads, that would work. But directly on their profiles... might end up being a bit intrusive, ya know? It's a good idea, don't get me wrong, but it could probably be tweaked a bit more lest it scares more new members off than it attracts.

@Aldrain: Ah, gotcha. Now it makes more sense; the phrasing seemed to imply something that wasn't there, that's all.

Also, outsider though I may be, I was only giving my opinion. And honestly, if you react like that to an outsider's opinion this place probably will remain as it is. After all, I'm sure you all were outsiders at some point in time as well, but you stuck around and now look where you are. If you want activity, you can't be so venomous towards fresh opinions from people who aren't really active in this section. Whether you like to admit it or not, we're all one community. All the boards, be it the Future of KH section, Roleplaying, ANIMALS HAVE NO GOD, or any of the other sections, this is all still one community. And we need to work together to ensure all parts of it work as well as they can.

That's just how I see it though.

I know. But if you honestly look around, it's like that in every section. You get chewed out if you post something stupid in the Future of KH section. You get scoffed at in the FI section if you post something you thought was funny and either a) nobody says anything or b) they rip you to shreds, all in good humor to boot.

Here we just have a Hierarchy. You start at the bottom and earn yourself some respect, you take peoples criticisms, and you work hard to achieve a loftier prowess than you had when you first started. It took a REALLY long time to even feel somewhat accepted in this section. I was jealous of everybody, especially D.D.D, because she was 15 when I started getting into SotW and she was (and still is) kicking my ass all the way to china and back. I finally got over it and worked to become a better artist.

People aren't going to get better if we coddle them. I totally get what you guys mean, but the second somebody says something semi-harsh about a piece, when all the newbie is getting is soft little comments, their whole world blows up. And the art industry is a tough place anyway.

 

[Pablo]

In terms of advertising towards individual new members, I highly advise against it. It would become a nuisance, that is just how advertising on a personal level is. However, posting about the shops in a general matter, such as on the welcome email (if we still have that), it says something like "Welcome to khi blah blah. Head over to the graphics shops in Digital Media and requests some sweet new art to make yourself stand out". Something along the lines of that idea would be a much safer route I think.

 

[Mirby]

Here we just have a Hierarchy. You start at the bottom and earn yourself some respect, you take peoples criticisms, and you work hard to achieve a loftier prowess than you had when you first started. It took a REALLY long time to even feel somewhat accepted in this section. I was jealous of everybody, especially D.D.D, because she was 15 when I started getting into SotW and she was (and still is) kicking my ass all the way to china and back. I finally got over it and worked to become a better artist.

Honestly I think this is part of the problem. Everywhere else on the site you can jump right in, with mixed results. People come here trying to do the same thing, but they can't because of this hierarchy. They may not want to put in the effort to climb the ranks that only really exist here, and find it ultimately pointless to do so. The only people who are at the top can (not saying anyone does, just pointing out a possibility) develop an elitist air and make others not want to come here. When I was pointing out the attitude Celtis had towards me giving my thoughts on the matter (as an "outsider"), I was referring to this hierarchy.

If you want to get more activity, the hierarchy may need to go. Yeah, there are some damn talented people in here, but there's really no need to instill them at the top of some ranking system. If everyone felt like they were on equal ground, status-wise, activity may just increase. Yeah, those talented people may not be at the top anymore, but there's no need for a top. With art, it is the skill level that is acknowledged, and those individuals wouldn't lose skill level from the removal of this hierarchy; if anything, they'll retain the respect they had before and things will probably pick up.

This place needs to be inviting if people are to come. A hierarchy that exists on no other board could be counter-productive to this. Calling people "outsiders" is also counter-productive to this. Literally every other forum I'm on has a section for art lacks the hierarchy, and as a result is much more inviting, and people are much more willing to share what they've made. I'm just trying to help apply my experiences there to renovate this forum. Isn't that what this thread is about? Trying to renovate and revive DM back to some level of activity, at the very least?

 

[Taylor]

Funny, this attitude is exactly what I had in mind when mentioning that this place needs to be more welcoming. I mean, who wants to come here if they'll just be verbally attacked like this. Also, is my opinion any less valid because I'm not a DM regular? Sometimes it helps to get an outside view on things, which is my only intent by posting here.

So thanks for responding; you've done nothing but prove my point.

Yes, much as I would typically walk into the cafeteria at my old high school and tell them how to do their jobs without first learning what their job entails.

You contributing your opinion is not the problem: you contributing your opinion without first understanding how and why DM works is. Maybe you've been a lurker, and that's fine, but I have literally never seen you post here, so I think it's a little strange that you randomly decided to drop in with your opinion out of the blue.

Tbh, my first instinct was to assume you came in here because you saw Hillboy come in here. I know you have that "I fight for my friends" mentality, and so I figured you rushed in here to mockingbird his opinion.


But hey, I digress: if you want to help DM get off its feet, by all means.

 

[Mirby]

Yes, much as I would typically walk into the cafeteria at my old high school and tell them how to do their jobs without first learning what their job entails.

You contributing your opinion is not the problem: you contributing your opinion without first understanding how and why DM works is. Maybe you've been a lurker, and that's fine, but I have literally never seen you post here, so I think it's a little strange that you randomly decided to drop in with your opinion out of the blue.

Tbh, my first instinct was to assume you came in here because you saw Hillboy come in here. I know you have that "I fight for my friends" mentality, and so I figured you rushed in here to mockingbird his opinion.


But hey, I digress: if you want to help DM get off its feet, by all means.

Let's not make this personal. We're all Taylors here. ;P

But yes, I'm trying to help, and that's it. Like I said, a fresh view never hurts.

 

[Wehrmacht]

When I was pointing out the attitude Celtis had towards me giving my thoughts on the matter (as an "outsider"), I was referring to this hierarchy.

well the problem isn't really that you gave your opinion, but rather that i would say it is difficult for you to grasp the context which led up to this problem because you weren't around for most of it. so with the way you and hillboy were speaking you were coming off as pretending to know a bit more than you actually do. I know that probably wasn't your intention, but it's just kind of how it seemed. (to add to this, hillboy's posts frankly weren't very helpful because of his lack of insight into the issue, no offense to him).

i agree with you that having a "hierarchy" of any sort is bad considering all people do here is make tags and we don't want to foster an elitist attitude in any part of the site (celtis is not trying to promote this in any way with what he said), but it doesn't really seem fair to give advice and call people out on a situation you don't have a full grasp of.

People aren't going to get better if we coddle them. I totally get what you guys mean, but the second somebody says something semi-harsh about a piece, when all the newbie is getting is soft little comments, their whole world blows up. And the art industry is a tough place anyway.

It's not really about coddling others, you can make people feel welcome and still give insightful and thoughtful feedback on their work. I know exactly what you mean because this happens in TM a lot and I feel like most of the time i'm the only person trying to give actual advice. but this isn't about that.

give them actual advice, just don't make them feel excluded for not being part of the "clique".

 

[Eric]

hierarchy? what?

Also I still think we should focus on more than just tags. We've tried doing these same things for years only to end up right where we started. Let's do something different.

 

[Mirby]

well the problem isn't really that you gave your opinion, but rather that i would say it is difficult for you to grasp the context which led up to this problem because you weren't around for most of it. so with the way you and hillboy were speaking you were coming off as pretending to know a bit more than you actually do. I know that probably wasn't your intention, but it's just kind of how it seemed. (to add to this, hillboy's posts frankly weren't very helpful because of his lack of insight into the issue, no offense to him).

i agree with you that having a "hierarchy" of any sort is bad considering all people do here is make tags and we don't want to foster an elitist attitude in any part of the site (celtis is not trying to promote this in any way with what he said), but it doesn't really seem fair to give advice and call people out on a situation you don't have a full grasp of.

looks like a case of poor wording all around then. ah well.

@Ajaxx: that could help. I'd be interested in whatever comes of that.

 

[Malibu]

This is a Kingdom Hearts fan site. People don't come to this site for the Digital Media section, anyone who is truly interested in Graphic Design will go to a graphics forum. Also most of us are like 20 years old (what the fuck are we doing on a site meant for 13 yo's) so of course there's going to be a difference in maturity amongst us and younger members hence the so called hierarchy. I'm all for something new but really what it boils down to is effort and interest. I'm not preaching, honestly i'm probably the laziest out of everyone here.

 

[Pablo]

Okay, heres the thing. You can't call out DM for having a hierarchy without calling out the rest of the entire site. And it's not something you can get rid of. Each site has its own group of people that are "regulars" that have for some reason gained more "respect" over their fellow members. It's stupid, but it happens. Wherever you go on this site you will find a hierarchy and that hierarchy is a natural occurrence due to how people are. Here, we have hierarchy because simply, some of us are better than others. Its an art forum, what do you expect? That's how it works. Factors contribute to that such as how old people are, how long they have been here, and whether or not they are on staff. This is not something you can get rid of.

That being said, it is unfortunate that it sometimes works the way it does and the newer, lower people get hurt or whatever, but theres really nothing that can be done to get rid of it. So my advice to you is to find a way to live with it. We can be welcoming and kind to everyone, but it's still there.

 

[Nutari]

Well now that we got the bad blood out of our system:

Malibu makes a dang good point. This website may be the issue. I'm sure graphics people stick to their graphics forums and that is why we have such a small influx of members who are interested in graphic design. There also may be a severe case of stage fright per se. Some lurker may wanna post their work but they are scared to. I know I was always freaking out about what people thought of my work for the longest time.

 

[Ðari]

This is a Kingdom Hearts fan site. People don't come to this site for the Digital Media section, anyone who is truly interested in Graphic Design will go to a graphics forum. Also most of us are like 20 years old (what the diddly are we doing on a site meant for 13 yo's) so of course there's going to be a difference in maturity amongst us and younger members hence the so called hierarchy. I'm all for something new but really what it boils down to is effort and interest. I'm not preaching, honestly i'm probably the laziest out of everyone here.

Its funny because In an anecdote I referenced the impact of media, social-media's evolution, and social-changes between 07-present. And among the mindsets of the people, lets say five-years younger than us (late 90's babies here), it could be the same but it could also be slightly different just due to that gap in the "times have changed" possibility.

Can we sticky this thread Pablo? and possibly change the title to something like "Digital Media, Lets Get Engaged"

We'll post suggestions for now, and set up a schedule too coordinate everything.
If we don't have time during the week, weekends sound good for everybody to post/engage/exchange?
Trying to be reasonable here, lol.

 

[D.D.D]

Whoa, there've been a lot of posts overnight. Holy bajeezus, this thread is lively. I actually think it's the most lively thread DM has had in years, lol.
Anyways:

That sounds good... except for the posting-on-new-member's-profiles bit. It sounds good on paper, but I dunno... I wouldn't like to register, then see a new Visitor Message right away, only to have it amount to HI WELCOME TO THE FORUMS COME TO DIGITAL MEDIA IF YOU WANT AN AVATAR OR TO LEARN ART STUFF. Yeah, mention it in intro threads, that would work. But directly on their profiles... might end up being a bit intrusive, ya know? It's a good idea, don't get me wrong, but it could probably be tweaked a bit more lest it scares more new members off than it attracts.

I can see what you mean about it might being too intrusive. They'd probably be like, "What's with all these Photoshop people throwing these avatars at me?" I'll think more about it. I think your idea of intro threads instead of profiles is good, though. Anyways, I thank you for your input. Like you said before, an outside opinion does help and I'm glad that someone who doesn't usually participate in DM is offering suggestions and trying to help out.

@Aldrain: Your point about not coddling newer members is good. I'm not saying we should tear into them like rabid beasts, but we just need to criticize gently. And we HAVE to remember that when we criticize, we tell them how to fix it. I mean, I remember when I was a newbie and I asked for critique and someone would tell me something was wrong with it. I'd wonder, "Well, how the heck do I fix it?". So we have to tell them the process to fix it. This is the only way they can get better (unless they look up a tutorial somewhere else about it). For older members we won't have to (since they'll probably have enough experience to know how to fix it).

As for ranking, I think we should leave all of it out. Of course, there's going to be times when a newer member sees a bunch of senior members that are godly when it comes to tagging and feel like crap (I know how it feels and I'm 100% sure every other tagger on here has felt the same when they were new). But any 'official' ranking should be left out. Not that we even have that in DM at the moment, so if we just keep it the same we'll be fine.

@AJaxx: Totally agree on focusing more than just tags. LP's, wallpapers, advertisements, YT backgrounds, etc....

Anyways, in my closing statement, I agree that this thread should be stickied and should be talked in frequently. Maybe we could use it to talk about upcoming DM events and report our opinions on how well we think they worked.

I have another idea that could drum up interest from the interested-in-KH-only members; for every KH release, we could all collaborate together to make a giant pack of graphics related to that newly or soon to be released KH game. There could be wallpapers, tags, avatars free to use, and other things within it. If they could somehow bring it up on the main page, then other members only interested in KH would at least take a look at it and hopefully enjoy our contribution. I think it would help to have DM feel more connected with the main core of KHI.

 

[Vicodin]

I haven't read much, because I'm too distracted, but here are my thoughts:

Put more focus into traditional graphic design. Stop making tags and experiment. This doesn't mean LPs either. Make advertisements, small webdesigns, logos, pamphlets. If any of you are seriously thinking of doing this for a job, you will never make a tag in your professional life.

If we do start graphics clans again, SWEET. Let's do it. Clan challenges happened back then too.

A worm would be an interesting thing if we ever got it off the ground. The last time we did one, it crashed and burned. Dedication will have to be put in place.

The idea of tutorials for beginners is a good idea, but instead of showing them how to do something, take a step back to the basics. I don't think many of you guys, at least not the relative new comers (and I'm saying this in reference to people who have only been here about a year or newer) don't much know the "rules" of design, and it shows. It's not just about knowing the rule of thirds in that "don't put your subject in the middle" but understanding why you shouldn't. Same thing with text, and color, and flow. It seems a lot of those words are thrown around without the understanding of what they are and how they help to engage and consume your audience. If we at least try to focus on what that is, and I know there are ancient posts explaining them, we can at least grow in the knowledge of that to better ourselves.

Honestly, I say close shops. I do. They kill our section, because people come and go straight there. I'm not saying for forever, but for a while. Entice people to post in a different section and request stuff, and people can go and pick up what they want, in a way a call for hire section. I know I would go in a take some requests, but I'm not about to open a shop. Same goes then for the shop owners and workers... it'll have them come into the main section more. Though I do know that a lot of you do. By just looking through quickly of the three most active shops, I have seen at least ten names I have never seen before, by just coming in and requesting.

And that comes to another point. I don't see anyone coming in to just comment. Over the years I've been here, there has been less of an influx of people just coming to look and say "that looks cool!" We need to find a way to invite people here, and tell them, it's okay if you don't have any criticism.

Honestly guys, we don't always need criticism. Stop not wanting to comment if you don't find anything wrong. Don't be afraid to just say "Hey that looks really friggen cool."

I don't know you guys. My thoughts are scattered on this matter, and I feel like if anyone picks at my post, I could explain my thoughts further. So I guess this is just a rough draft of what I have to say... but feel free to object.

 

[Pablo]

I like the idea of having it so that everyone just posts a request as a thread, and someone picks it up instead of posting it in a shop. However, I feel like a lot of the requests will be overlooked.

 

[Nutari]

I like the idea of having it so that everyone just posts a request as a thread, and someone picks it up instead of posting it in a shop. However, I feel like a lot of the requests will be overlooked.

Or we develop a ninja infestation. I wouldn't mind sharing requests so long as they are split up evenly, but what's the fun in that?

 

[Sean]

The joy's of getting to a thread pretty late.

Yes, I've read every single word in this thread and I feel as if for the most part it's pretty productive. Now I'm not one to write a wall of text explaining in detail every single idear that pops up in my head mainly because they almost always seem outlandish and actually have no way of getting implemented in the current system. I will, however, lay out two points of emphasis (maybe three if I feel like typing it out) I feel should be addressed or at least taken consideration of.

1. I absolutely hate the talk of hierarchy. In my eyes it's complete bullshit, especially in regards to tagging. I won't reiterate what Wehrmact. Already said. Long story short, if Ethan or shortythugsta showed up in this section I would treat him with the same respect as I do all of you. Not because "If I don't take them in, who will?" but because we have no right to shun another person's opinion just because they're not a regular. That's that shit I don't like. And again, sorry if this issue was already dealt with I just thought I'd take a stance on it.

2. As far as branching out into different areas of design, I find that okay to kill the repetitiveness and boredom that sits with most of the members in this section (including me). But all in all, like Darien pointed out, there needs to be a 'push' that jumpstarts the section. Like now. Right now. In the past (oh how I hate that phrase) we've always were too cautious with ideas and in turn the interest waned when it would be brought up at a later time. Such as the result with DMI...both versions. Personally I think that we should find something new to do this week instead of talking about it over and over and over and over. I mean it sounds good but what are we actually gonna do you know?

3. Lastly (would you look at that), I have no clue how vBulletin works but I know on most other forums (even the graphic ones I'm a part of) there's an incentive to actually post more. Not only pieces and in competitions but to actually post critique and other stuff as well. And incentive could be anything from gift cards, OC resources and other things (like a forum shop or something). I think the level system KHI had a while back would greatly benefit this section and make it prosper due to the fact that we could be really flexible in the sense that exp could be given for various actions idk. I'm losing my train of thought because I'm skyping someone but yeah you get the gist of it. EDIT: Got it back, but in my eyes the past administration was way too conservative with keeping KHI and not experimenting with changes to see how the members (as a whole) would react. I'm certain this new strain of admin is much more experimental on how they'll run KHI.

kdone.

 

[Nutari]

Sean raises 3 good points. I wanna see everybody raise three good points in a single post.

Jk.

In all seriousness, I agree with every word.

Let's be spontaneous. Graphic of the week: MOVIE POSTER.

SotW is getting boring. I mean it's fun but we are running out of themes. Let's change the aesthetics.