Relationships

[Elysium]

So this confirms Roxas / Namine. Or did they break up in KH3?

 

[MelodicEnigma]

So...

About that 2.8 credits couple montage...was Nomura aware.

Suddenly I think it'd be pretty funny if Nomura had nothing to do with the end credits and was just as surprised to find the montage even there. Whoops.

Also, is there a particular reason we should be placing so much emphasis on what it takes for something to be "canon" or "confirmed" in understanding character relations? I mean, direct telling is helpful in a sense of understanding a character relation, of course, but there are many ways in which these things can be obtained between characters without blatant, equalized expressions such as kissing or vocal professions of romantic love—or any other type of relationship bond. Relationships, e.g. romance, family, friendships—we see that those character relationships are an integral part of ones own characterization and narrative with other characters. I get that there is importance to the showings above in terms of romantic intention, obviously. But, at what point do we need a kiss or profession of love to actually understand the story being told here for those two characters? Don't get me wrong, for some characters, there are ways in which even through lines of subtext that Nomura and his team could've/should've emphasized these factors effectively to actually be a part of characterization, rather than a conditional setup that is never utilized as if it never happened, i.e. Roxas and Namine's confirmation of existence through Sora and Kairi's interaction.

But I mean, the romantic narrative, as traditionally under-layered as it was, has been between Sora and Kairi since Kingdom Hearts, has it not? Rather than it needing to be "canon", I just think there are better ways it should've been told via storytelling, at least that's my approach anyway.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

So this confirms Roxas / Namine. Or did they break up in KH3?

Man, I don't know. Roxas was in Twilight Town ogling at her room window through Sora somewhere in KHIII. And he misses her (the most or second most one, Japanese wise).

Naminè...well, she was just lamenting on how she thinks no one gives a shit about her. Poor gal.

Though the bitterness in her voice for a sec lit me up. I was like dang.

 

[kaseykockroach]

Ew, look at all those heteros.

 

[kaseykockroach]

So this confirms Roxas / Namine. Or did they break up in KH3?

Roxas never gave her a romantic ride on the Gummi ship to Destiny Islands.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Man, I don't know. Roxas was in Twilight Town ogling at her room window through Sora somewhere in KHIII. And he misses her (the most or second most one, Japanese wise).

In what way is it different in the Japanese version?

 

[AdrianXXII]

Man, I don't know. Roxas was in Twilight Town ogling at her room window through Sora somewhere in KHIII. And he misses her (the most or second most one, Japanese wise).

Naminè...well, she was just lamenting on how she thinks no one gives a shit about her. Poor gal.

Though the bitterness in her voice for a sec lit me up. I was like dang.

That scene made me sad, because it tells you just how insecure and self-conscious Naminé really is. I take it she viewed Kairi's desire to bring her back as just Kairi being nice and not Kairi actually wanting Naminé to be her own person and have her own experiences.

I really hope Namine gets to form some strong friendships in the group and become more confidant.

 

[Recon]

So this confirms Roxas / Namine. Or did they break up in KH3?

Clearly Riku swooped. Damn straight.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

That scene made me sad, because it tells you just how insecure and self-conscious Naminé really is. I take it she viewed Kairi's desire to bring her back as just Kairi being nice and not Kairi actually wanting Naminé to be her own person and have her own experiences.

I really hope Namine gets to form some strong friendships in the group and become more confidant.

It's pretty powerful. Namine's character has always centered on the theme of loneliness. There are interesting parallels to the promise she made with Sora in CoM to him finding her in the Final World, so Sora also emphasizing all those who care and think about her really shows a lot for her character development from that theme. She's not as alone as she thinks she is.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Roxas never gave her a romantic ride on the Gummi ship to Destiny Islands.

Does it count when there's other people he did the same to inside the ride? If so...does he now have a harem?

In what way is it different in the Japanese version?

I think I mildly described it already? The words used in Japanese is "meet/see", and there's a sort of emphasis placed where it makes it sound that Roxas either misses her the most or second most. The translator leans to second most due to what Sora says after. You know, the one put aside - "and someone special I know" which was really "and also someone that wants to see/meet you most". Paraphrasing. In the English, while there was also this emphasis with Roxas, it sounded more tacked on. I'm going off memory and translator notes.

In general, the consensus is the localization conveyed certain dialogue to be more implicitly romantic than the subtlety the Japanese aimed for.

That scene made me sad, because it tells you just how insecure and self-conscious Naminé really is. I take it she viewed Kairi's desire to bring her back as just Kairi being nice and not Kairi actually wanting Naminé to be her own person and have her own experiences.

I really hope Namine gets to form some strong friendships in the group and become more confidant.

It's the verbal abuse she's endured of being told she's practically nothing and used as a disposable tool for majority of her life, along with being kept in isolation.

KHIII did nothing to follow up on Naminè's despondency. Her two significant relationships aside from Sora (i.e. Kairi and Roxas) amounted to nothing, despite that they were the only ones shown to be thinking about her in the game (they complied with the "show, don't tell" advice by actually showing). We did not see the reactions of everyone once she stepped inside the gummiship, and instead we end things on some forced shoujo trash scene with petals that just made everyone go "?".

She was done so wrong. Next to Kairi. Aqua jobbed, but at least she jobbed with relevance.

 

[AdrianXXII]

It's pretty powerful. Namine's character has always centered on the theme of loneliness. There are interesting parallels to the promise she made with Sora in CoM to him finding her in the Final World, so Sora also emphasizing all those who care and think about her really shows a lot for her character development from that theme. She's not as alone as she thinks she is.

Yeah i dont think she realizes she's touched a few hearts in her year of life and they want her back.

It's the verbal abuse she's endured of being told she's practically nothing and used as a disposable tool for majority of her life, along with being kept in isolation.

KHIII did nothing to follow up on Naminè's despondency. Her two significant relationships aside from Sora (i.e. Kairi and Roxas) amounted to nothing, despite that they were the only ones shown to be thinking about her in the game (they complied with the "show, don't tell" advice by actually showing). We did not see the reactions of everyone once she stepped inside the gummiship, and instead we end things on some forced shoujo trash scene with petals that just made everyone go "?".

She was done so wrong. Next to Kairi. Aqua jobbed, but at least she jobbed with relevance.

Yeah, she still has a lot of hurt to be mended, hopefully being around friends will help. It seems they're hinting at an actual friendship forming between Naminé and Xion, which I'd be happy to see.

Yeah, I fill her waking up to a happy and excited Roxas, Kairi and Sora would have been more meaningful. But it wouldn't work with the ending they were going for, i guess.

I think those characters might still have their moment to shine in a non Sora centric game.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I think I mildly described it already? The words used in Japanese is "meet/see", and there's a sort of emphasis placed where it makes it sound that Roxas either misses her the most or second most. The translator leans to second most due to what Sora says after. You know, the one put aside - "and someone special I know" which was really "and also someone that wants to see/meet you most". Paraphrasing. In the English, while there was also this emphasis with Roxas, it sounded more tacked on. I'm going off memory and translator notes.

In general, the consensus is the localization conveyed certain dialogue to be more implicitly romantic than the subtlety the Japanese aimed for.

If you have a link to those translator notes I'd like to see them!

Anyway, I've seen how that consensus has been placed on Sora and Kairi, most notably in the scene when they're floating through the ethereal space. But, I'm not sure how much this extends to other characters in corresponding dialogue specifically? In the localization, how much of Roxas and Namine's dialogue is to be taken from the perspective of romance (which, is a very specific relation on the spectrum) versus that in consideration of her character in the overall narrative? The language and promises she uses towards Roxas is virtually no different than what she uses towards Sora in CoM—most of this emphasizing the part of her character narrative that deals with the weight of isolation and loneliness she experienced. Her reasons for reaching out to them were different, yet intertwined, and the execution of her character is still initiated from the aspects that emphasizes those themes of Namine wanting to be connected to others. It's only through interpretive romanticism that Namine's importance and interaction with characters is taken to be implied as romance—which seemingly ends up being this forced cornerstone of what anybody cares about concerning Namine nowadays. Which, I guess, at this point the "eligible candidates" now are Roxas, Riku, and Xion? For god's sake. Unlike with Sora and Kairi (much to the chagrin of many), romance isn't a significant part of her characterization, not even a little. Not that I'm demeaning romance being a part of character, but Namine is unique for a lot of different reasons and has had a narrative that wasn't concentrated on telling that story. I've seen people argue this with Sora in CoM, but we know she drew him towards Castle Oblivion because she was lonely, not as an agent for romantic interest or possibility.

All KH3 did for Namine was remind us that with certain individuals in the context, she explicitly shares a fundamental, strong bond to those shes connected with. Outside of Sora (Donald, Goofy), Roxas, Kairi, and Riku Replica (Riku)—it's a bit more "scattered" in terms of showing this specifically in the game. Yet, I don't agree that KH3 did Namine wrong in this department specifically as it still carried a certain weight throughout the story.

Namine may not have gotten a standing ovation from the group when she was revived, but her scene with Sora in the Final World was a long time coming as it absolutely didn't have a proper resolution in KH2. That scene itself is a representation of the promise they made to each other in CoM, and how Namine's character has grown with other people since then. Showing her to be on the thoughts of Sora, Roxas, Kairi, and many others as they mentioned bringing her back countless times in the story is a big deal for someone like her. Even if she didn't show up until the Final World, this at the very least still has a lot of meaning for her overall character. People putting so much weight on the whole Riku/Riku Replica "romance" thing are really missing the bigger picture here—which really, I believe this is significant more so in line for the following reasons. Showing her there at the end, interacting with Xion and being around the others in the group as her own person, not in isolation—THAT is what is important. We'd all be suffering from repetition if we have to keep mentioning how KH3 lacked on certain character qualities. But, I don't take this for granted as this was still something that could be understood and appreciated from the game's conclusion. Namine gets what she wanted and is happy. It's great, and other than only slightly reminding us of how OP her powers are again, her presence in the game wasn't bad. It ain't perfect, but it wasn't completely vile either for her character.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

I'll get back to you Melodic.

Yeah, she still has a lot of hurt to be mended, hopefully being around friends will help. It seems they're hinting at an actual friendship forming between Naminé and Xion, which I'd be happy to see.

Yeah, I fill her waking up to a happy and excited Roxas, Kairi and Sora would have been more meaningful. But it wouldn't work with the ending they were going for, i guess.

I think those characters might still have their moment to shine in a non Sora centric game.

Just have a moment where she steps inside the gummiship and she's greeted by familiar faces, just to come full circle with what Sora was trying to convince her of in the Final World. Let us see her get formally introduced to the Wayfinder trio. It shouldn't have even been that difficult. Then we slide into the beach scene. I don't know what was the problem with not letting her interact with Roxas and Kairi. Would it be too much? Take too long? It's hollow abysmal writing. And if you're not gonna do anything, then don't add foundation like having Kairi feel her or have Roxas flash looking at her window. Oh yay, look, they care, let's not get closure on that whatsoever.

Also, her waking up to Ansem, Even, and Ienzo with no one she would feel more comfortable with there is just a yikes from me.

 

[AdrianXXII]

I'll get back to you Melodic.



Just have a moment where she steps inside the gummiship and she's greeted by familiar faces, just to come full circle with what Sora was trying to convince her of in the Final World. Let us see her get formally introduced to the Wayfinder trio. It shouldn't have even been that difficult. Then we slide into the beach scene. I don't know what was the problem with not letting her interact with Roxas and Kairi. Would it be too much? Take too long? It's hollow abysmal writing. And if you're not gonna do anything, then don't add foundation like having Kairi feel her or have Roxas flash looking at her window. Oh yay, look, they care, let's not get closure on that whatsoever.

Also, her waking up to Ansem, Even, and Ienzo with no one she would feel more comfortable with there is just a yikes from me.

Your suggested scene would have been nice and wouldn't even have taken that long, just have either RAXI and/or TAV be in the ship as she enters and warmly greet her and show her face light up at the realisation these people are happy to see her.

Personally I feel at least Kairi should have been there to welcome Naminé back as she wakes up, seeing bringing Naminé back was a goal Kairi set for herself. But I assume they wanted tp keep wether or not Sora and Kairi made it back a mystery until the scene on the tree.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I'll get back to you Melodic.



Just have a moment where she steps inside the gummiship and she's greeted by familiar faces, just to come full circle with what Sora was trying to convince her of in the Final World. Let us see her get formally introduced to the Wayfinder trio. It shouldn't have even been that difficult. Then we slide into the beach scene. I don't know what was the problem with not letting her interact with Roxas and Kairi. Would it be too much? Take too long? It's hollow abysmal writing. And if you're not gonna do anything, then don't add foundation like having Kairi feel her or have Roxas flash looking at her window. Oh yay, look, they care, let's not get closure on that whatsoever.

Also, her waking up to Ansem, Even, and Ienzo with no one she would feel more comfortable with there is just a yikes from me.

Thank ya!

But yeah, I still think it's bare minimum, but for what Nomura's writing has showed us since KH—there can, and sometimes should, always be more. More characterization, more interaction, more exposition, etc. I get it, it isn't lost on me, but there are some things to appreciate despite a lack. At the end of the day, we are talking about a game series that is well known for padding out character elements and story details through upgraded games that fans have to purchase again—all just to get what we should've gotten in the first place. Thankfully, this DLC is free (right?), but I can't imagine what else is going to be added to structure the "more" better. Anything that would add more to the relationships Namine has established since her debut is always welcomed.

 

[alexis.anagram]

Aqua jobbed, but at least she jobbed with relevance.

Hahah. I love the way you put a point on these things.

Yeah, she still has a lot of hurt to be mended

Oh yeah, I remember when KH3 was supposed to be about this, too.

Namine gets what she wanted and is happy.

Everybody gets what they wanted (except Kairi) but it isn't triumphant because they weren't sufficiently involved in seeing it through themselves. It's hard to get excited about Namine's return when it's treated as so unremarkable and tacked on. It's not a question of her lacking some small nuance: she's devoid of the basic components of character, with one scene that doesn't matter enough to be mandatory and only a peripheral presence outside of that. She exists moreso as a relic of past storylines, to give color to other characters' roles and maybe even symbolize some vague motivation for them-- to the extent that anyone in KH3 pursues any agenda whatsoever. She's a utility borrowing emotional context from previous titles to play up this facade of innate purpose, but the fact that her only contribution could have been easily accomplished and explained without her gives lie to that. KH3 uses her, but it doesn't need her, which is sad for a character whose arc is centered around wanting to be needed.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Everybody gets what they wanted (except Kairi) but it isn't triumphant because they weren't sufficiently involved in seeing it through themselves. It's hard to get excited about Namine's return when it's treated as so unremarkable and tacked on. It's not a question of her lacking some small nuance: she's devoid of the basic components of character, with one scene that doesn't matter enough to be mandatory and only a peripheral presence outside of that. She exists moreso as a relic of past storylines, to give color to other characters' roles and maybe even symbolize some vague motivation for them-- to the extent that anyone in KH3 pursues any agenda whatsoever. She's a utility borrowing emotional context from previous titles to play up this facade of innate purpose, but the fact that her only contribution could have been easily accomplished and explained without her gives lie to that. KH3 uses her, but it doesn't need her, which is sad for a character whose arc is centered around wanting to be needed.

The "basic components" of Namine's character have been a relevant force throughout the game—from what she represents as a character, which ties into the motivations of those seeking to help her, to what she is directly able to express further from the Final World scene, albeit optional, and game ending. As the same with other storytelling elements in the game, it isn't the most optimal from a writing standpoint, but saying its void is a bit of a hypercritical oversight.

The exposure of her character in the Final World showed us the individuality she carries as a person, with her separate presence there because of what happened to her host. The foundational meaning of this occurrence and the following scene is a set precedent in the story by her presence through the thoughts/motivations of those who seek to help her—something shared between those who are "lost" and meant to be found in the game. For the conversation that Sora has with her, indeed reflections of her past and those she's connected to—this "emotional context" used here is congruent to the overall theme of the series itself and is shared amongst all characters who "find" each other. At what point is this not an appropriate factor to include here, which is something that is actually an essential component to characterization? And, even if the knowledge of this scene is optional, along with the usage of her abilities for the final fight—this is still relevant to Lingering Will's appearance and her overall character regardless, with the "need" of her involvement being shaped due to how this changes the outcome of the situation at hand, and considering she has made this connection with Terra before, it's appropriate that she is needed in order to accomplish this. Despite being in her current state, her inclusion was something that she decided to do, the same way this was implied via orchestral concert for what she did for Terra in 0.2. This proactive nature of hers falls in line with actions taken in the past. The "more is more" philosophy still isn't wasted on Namine's involvement in the story, as it isn't for most others, but the role that she does fulfill, and the character that she does show, hardly warrants a conclusion of her being "void" of character.

Considering most of the "lost" characters achieved an objective that was relevant to their characterization, I don't believe that simply applies to them all as well. The game has many ways in which it can improve itself, but there're definite arguments that it meets its end at an adequate level to be deemed "sufficient" at most. Nomura's writing in KH3, it's surface level, and clearly shows that Nomura doesn't fully capitalize on the potential he sets in place for his story and characters. This is all true and is where your arguments stands from what I can see. I understand it, and where the lack is, it's very frustrating when you know it can be done better. If even fans can think of it, why not the creator? Despite the conversation being long overdue between Nam/Sora, even the that conservation had more efficient ways to be approached and executed. There's a noticeable lack of optimal prospects in each area of the game, believe me I get it, but this lack also doesn't necessarily amount to a complete nothingness—something that doesn't capture the good things that are present for the characters. Overall, there're contextual emphasis on character that are "decent", but it's not even close to exemplary—something of expectation for a character driven story. For Namine, this meets alongside that bare minimum scale as well for what was presented.

But, I will agree that it is totally egregious that the parts of the story concerning Namine (the Final World scene and even the orchestral conversations) are something withheld from the immediate context. That seriously doesn't make any sense, and it's bad that I'm not surprised either. Though, I uhh, didn't even know for the Final World. >_> It was such an easy, accessible conversation that the thought of it being optional didn't occur to me until now. It's like nothing was learned from the original FFVII! Though, I wouldn't stand at a point to disregard the meaning it holds, however, as all these things found a way to be either included (Kairi's letter) or implied (Namine connecting to Terra) in the story anyway.

 

[Deleted member 246005]

So this confirms Roxas / Namine. Or did they break up in KH3?

I think that dynamic was pushed aside for Roxas/Xion. Where Roxas/Namine a thing outside of KH2?

 

[Elysium]

I think that dynamic was pushed aside for Roxas/Xion. Where Roxas/Namine a thing outside of KH2?

I was being a bit snarky. That 2.8 picture is supposed to "confirm" SoKai, but Roxas / Namine are also featured there and I don't think most people would think a romance has been confirmed between them. I would like if Roxas / Namine became canon though.

 

[Raz]

Ew, look at all those heteros.

I haven't finished 2.8 but is there really a montage of Disney-heteros making out?

I can't.