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i mean, i don't know why people upset with how the girl characters get shafted would go out of their way to interpret the scene as shafting the girls even further lol. but the whole dream is sora following people only for them to turn to someone else when the camera changes. Sora follows Pluto who turns into DGM who turn into Nami who turns into Xion who turns into Roxas. Like it's just a trippy dream showing people who are connected to Sora and he keeps following them all as it leads him further and further into the nightmare.I always thought Blank Points was meant to be more symbolic than anything else, though, and mostly not truly occurring (at least not with the characters that it couldn't have been happening with at that time), but I could be wrong.
And you do bring up a good point about DDD. Haha Though since Xion has that whole gimmick of people seeing her as others--and Naminé's the closest idea Sora has about someone being forgotten--it just seems to make sense that it was really Xion he was seeing the whole time and not Nami.
And maybe the scenes with the people in his heart, and then the ones with everyone else, were separate? I'm reaching, I know, but he saw RX (and possibly Naminé) first, before Sora was as far into the dream (and they were trying to wake him up, I guess?), but when he went further into the dream maybe he, well... Literally started dreaming, whereas before the people were at least somewhat real?
And as for Terra and Aqua, it was Ven--reacting within Sora--who was seeing those two, right?
And actually... wasn't Riku in Sora's heart at that time, in his dreams of TWTNW? I forget.
But even if he wasn't, and had left by then (and now that I think about it, I think Riku did leave Sora's dreams for part of the last world) you could argue that Sora saw Riku because of their connection and that he'd been in his heart earlier. Same thing with Kairi, actually.
For what it's worth, Dilan and Even who are also present also don't show up in the credits because they don't speak either.Now that's just silly, imo. Not debating that you're right here (in fact, I think that you most likely are=]), but to me that'd be just like leaving Tinker Bell out of credits--if she was in the game in question--just because she doesn't speak.
And here I thought this series couldn't treat its original girl characters any worse. If they were in the game, they should've been in the credits, imo, whether or not they spoke or not.
I mean, KH makes a habit of trying to get everyone and their mother into the credits so why not them, who are actually original and important to the main story?
Lexeaus/Zexion usually, due to their relationship in CoM.Don't tell me there's Lexaeus-Yaoi out there somewhere...
i mean, i don't know why people upset with how the girl characters get shafted would go out of their way to interpret the scene as shafting the girls even further lol. but the whole dream is sora following people only for them to turn to someone else when the camera changes. Sora follows Pluto who turns into DGM who turn into Nami who turns into Xion who turns into Roxas. Like it's just a trippy dream showing people who are connected to Sora and he keeps following them all as it leads him further and further into the nightmare.
And yet people only argue that the Nami wasn't really Nami lol.
For what it's worth, Dilan and Even who are also present also don't show up in the credits because they don't speak either.
Lexeaus/Zexion usually, due to their relationship in CoM.
I often wonder if this is because of the more... louder parts of the fanbase. Or the bad parts, I should say, that were all like, "OMG! Kairi's such a witch and so useless! She gets in the way of SoRiku, despite the fact this series is about friendship and if anyone gets in the way of SoRiku it's Sora, and was mean to Sora and Riku... like characters like Joshua also weren't, and yet we still love them!!!!!!!!" (And this kind of thing can be applied to some of the other girls, too, though mainly Kairi and Xion it seems.)
And I realize that I must seem like the most ridiculous feminist fighter ever on this site
Though tbh, I didn't even notice any problems with the girls in this saga until Coded (so it isn't all bad with them, though a lot of people more active than I am with this topic might disagree with me on that). Until then, everything was A-Okay in this franchise and its female treatment to me.
But when I want to be able to look at a girl as a role model in this saga, and have really no one to choose from, then yeah: I have to recognize that as a problem.
I'm also pretty dang sure I've seen some Roxas/Lexaeus stuff, because of the whole "Limit Break" scene... This fandom is weird. LOL. Nothing says love, like smacking someone so hard in the face that they hunch over and lose ninety-nine-point-nine percent of their health!
Problem is that Kairi - for example - is hard to identify with in any of the games, because her whole character is built up on her relationship with Sora. She's "the girl" and not really much more. We don't really see her act in any way except for saving Sora's body with stupid unexplainable (or hard to explain) powers.
Of course there are people who hate characters because they get in the way of their ships (I feel like that's mostly young teenagers though), but many people dislike females and prefer homosexual guys because they just like the male characters better overall.
Lol, man. I remember I once saw Sora x Kairi's grandma. That was the worst.
In regards to shipping though that train certainly goes both ways as there are also many within the "shipping-swamp" who push for Sora/Kairi explicitly to invalidate/cast down any possible non-hetero ships/pairings at least in regards to Sora.
Well probably best to work on that, otherwise you'll always find reasons to look for the worst in everything, which likely won't make things very enjoyable for you :/And I guess we interpret the scene this way because we've completely given up on the writers when it comes to the girls, and don't see any reason but to expect the worst and just don't want to get our hopes up anymore.
It's easy to fall into the trap of cynicism and endless negativity, and in this series one can definitely say it's warranted or learned, but, c'mon. Clearly they give them some thought otherwise they wouldn't have been in the game at all. Do they give them enough thought? No, probably not. But I'd recommend trying to approach things with a balanced perspective otherwise, again, you'll just find more and more reasons to look for the worst in things, and once that starts it is very difficult to pull yourself out of.At the very least, they seem to give them less thought than they do the other characters, unfortunately (if they give them any thought at all).
It's not. I really don't think one should place the blame on the fandom for the shortcomings and mishandling done by the developers, and absolve them of responsibility.I often wonder if this is because of the more... louder parts of the fanbase.
Even if SE does listen to fans' wants, I don't really think that would mean they are looking at fanart or fanfic to discern that sort of stuff, nor would they likely let that sort of thing really sway them very much. Kairi may be getting the shaft a lot, but everything points to her being developed for a more prominent role in KHIII, not less.The fact that SE has admitted that they listen to the fans' wants... It's not too hard for me to make this kind of leap.
In my experience, most people point to how Kairi acts in KHI as the source of their dislike?Especially since Kairi seemed to get the most hate after KHII
To be fair, Kairi is hardly in any of the games even before 2006? She has a long history of being downplayed and shafted by the series, it's not a new thing.and who hasn't been in most of the games since then?
Okay, I'm going to stop here.And what relationship has the games really been queer baiting with lately
There is really no evidence that SE is under that impression. I'm fairly certain that in popularity polls in Japan, the KH girls tend to rank reasonably high. S-E is also aware that the demographic for KH is skewed female. And, typically, most data companies like S-E collect is more about the stuff fans like than the stuff fans don't like. For example, in the only known time that I've seen Nomura address fan polls, the only questions about what you liked the least were worlds and enemies (not characters). The poll was largely about what you liked the most. (And, hilariously, on that poll Riku didn't even break the top five of favourite characters, yet you certainly don't see his presence in the games being decreased any time soon lol)If SE thinks that people hate these girls so much, that they might not even buy the games for things about them, they're not going to take that risk. It's just the way it is.
I mean, I wouldn't really call that diddlying up Aqua's character or story.There's also the fact that even when they seem to be doing well, SE still somewhat Fs up with their female characters--like when it comes to Aqua, and how no one congratulated her for gaining the Mark of Mastery
I don't think she really needs her own villain to have an arc. It'd be nice if her arc didn't revolve so much around Terra and Ven, of course, but Aqua still has a story and character of her own. I don't think she would be one of the most loved characters (that aforementioned poll I talked about has Aqua at number 4) if she didn't have a story or character that affected people.and how she didn't have her own arc or main villain or anything like that--but I don't really want to get into all that now
Personally, this doesn't bother me, but I'll admit it's because of my own interpretation that Kairi's "accidental" nature is going to play a role in KH3. I'll likely be disappointed of course (and may retroactively dislike this), but for now I'm hopeful lol.and how unfortunate is that Aqua gave Kairi a Keyblade by accident, without even realizing it, and not because she saw anything special in her
You don't seem ridiculous at all.And I realize that I must seem like the most ridiculous feminist fighter ever on this site
Please don't. These discussions are much more interesting than arguing about Xehanort for the billionth time. I wish this site had a lot more discussions based on a feminist + literary criticism lens and the like.(though I try to stay away from talking about these kinds of things too much
Eh, see, I don't agree. This series has always had a problem with how it treats its female characters, and how few of them there are. Coded was just the first game to really make it obvious, but the problems have been there from the beginning. Kairi is the only prominent original female character in KH1 and she spends nearly the entire game in a coma, with people kind of just using her like an object, and then even when she does become an active force again, they find a way to write her out of the plot, which then begins this weird trend of her being used as symbol for other characters (mostly Sora) while she herself gets no screentime and development. She's not in CoM. She's hardly in KH2 (where she is made a damsel not once, not twice, but three times). In BBS she's again damseled. Coded she doesn't really appear. In KH3D she's used for shock value.Though tbh, I didn't even notice any problems with the girls in this saga until Coded. Until then, everything was A-Okay in this franchise and its female treatment to me.
It is definitely a problem. It's just not a new problem.But when I want to be able to look at a girl as a role model in this saga, and have really no one to choose from, then yeah: I have to recognize that as a problem.
It would be pretty out of place considering they're not really in the game as it is lolI mean, how cool would it have been if we got a Kairi and Naminé walking into the light moment, and making the "III" thing? (Since if Kairi had walked into the light with Sora and Riku, it would've made "IIII" instead.)
Do you mean the boxart or the menu screen? I'm positive SRK (and likely many more characters) will be on the boxart, but, keeping with tradition, I imagine Sora standing in the water will be the menu screen for KHIII.Also, on that note, I hope the title picture for KHIII is of Sora, Riku, and Kairi, but I'm not getting my hopes up.
Don't worry, there are just as many people who can only see KH2 through nostalgia goggles. It's surprising how many players began the series with it and not with KH1. Outside something like the FF series, I would never start a series with 2, personally. *shrug*Max said:Story:
1. Kingdom Hearts - Yeah, yeah, nostalgia goggles. I felt like it's simpler themes and strong cast resonated really well though, and when I think Kingdom Hearts I always think of the first game.