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Xblade13

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It really boils down to this rising animosity between Conservatism and Liberalism.

These two beliefs are pretty much extensions of the "live for the past, or live for the future" argument.

Conservatives tend to be much more religious in general, and glorify the "golden age" of the U.S. 1950s, and want the government to be "smaller" so that they feel like they can stay in the smaller bubble of their local community and not HAVE to care about the world at large. The world used to be a Utopia, and going back to that "Utopia" and honoring tradition before all else is the goal.

Liberals tend to be more open to agnostic/atheistic tendencies, and focus much more on things like fighting racism, sexism, and such. They are willing to abandon the trappings of tradition, and the general view is that the world has NEVER been a Utopia, that said "Utopia" is in the future and it is our goal to reach it by progressing forward and never looking back. Bigger government to regulate things, and a more Globalist mindset, where every human is literal equal in all countries and being nationalist is considered a weakness.

Both have their good and bad sides. But, I lean more liberal myself. Sure, I'm wary of certain things (such as the subject of abortion, or the growing trend of letting literal children change their hormones to become what they think they are). But, in the long run, I'm all for actually believing in science, actually moving towards a better future.

I'm an atheist myself (might be a touchy subject, but eh) and I have a very... unique view as to the nature of the human soul. But I digress, the thing is that I haven't gone out of my way to steal, cheat, kill, etc. You CAN be morally "good" without a God threatening you with punishment. Just consider other lives as literally equal, no exceptions.

People who commit crimes should be tried, and the Republicans who sided with Trump during all of this, as well as Trump himself, are to be held accountable. As someone on Fox news said, "If this were a Democrat President, and the Republicans had the chance to Impeach/try him/her, they would." The other guy shut up at that lol.
 

maryadavies

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I would not say all trump voters are racist.

My sister is DEF not racist, and she voted for the cheeto. Why? He did some things she likes, and didn't seem to see that he didn't do nuffin' much about the coronovirus ><. I'm all, "A stopped clock is right twice a day, darn it." and voted for Biden.

If you can't fix a stopped clock, you need to get rid of it.
 
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Oracle Spockanort

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I would not say all trump voters are racist.

My sister is DEF not racist, and she voted for the cheeto. Why? He did some things she likes, and didn't seem to see that he didn't do nuffin' much about the coronovirus ><. I'm all, "A stopped clock is right twice a day, darn it." and voted for Biden.

If you can't fix a stopped clock, you need to get rid of it.

When people call Trump voters racist, it is mostly done as a broad stroke statement. Most people know not all Trump voters are racist, but it’s hard to not at least believe they care more about their own selfish interests over the issues of all people who are negatively affected by many of Trump’s decisions (or lack thereof) like minority groups.

I agree with the broken clock metaphor 100%
 

kirabook

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My uncle voted for Trump as well. There are many names I would call him :)
And he's probably is racist though he'd never admit to being racist towards his own kind.

Maybe not all Trump supporters are dangerous. But on this Martin Luther King Day, I'd like to quote him.
I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

Maybe not all Trump supporters are personally racist, but the ones that still support him and gloss over his racism and the racism of their fellow Trump voters are just as bad. It's like that "I can excuse racism but-" meme. At some point, you gotta be like, "As much as I like this this and that, I CAN'T excuse racism."
 

Oracle Spockanort

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My uncle voted for Trump as well. There are many names I would call him :)
And he's probably is racist though he'd never admit to being racist towards his own kind.

Maybe not all Trump supporters are dangerous. But on this Martin Luther King Day, I'd like to quote him.


Maybe not all Trump supporters are personally racist, but the ones that still support him and gloss over his racism and the racism of their fellow Trump voters are just as bad. It's like that "I can excuse racism but-" meme. At some point, you gotta be like, "As much as I like this this and that, I CAN'T excuse racism."

Exactly. Racism should not something people should gloss over. When people vote Trump, regardless if they are racist or not, they are saying they value their own interests over the lives of minority groups.
 

Xblade13

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Well said, kirabook and Spockanort. To stand aside and do nothing is always a vote for the tyranny to continue.

Man I'm glad I'm breaking away from being moderate myself. I tried to give Trumpists the benefit of the doubt (mostly because my stepfather's entire family are conservative, while my mother has strangely mixed thoughts on back and forth being both at times), but I can't handle it anymore. Real change needs to happen, police reform, school reform, all of that. Biden will be the one to start the path towards the future. He might not accomplish all of it himself, but from now on I will always vote, and maybe we can continue the path forward even after Biden's term.
 

kirabook

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Biden is... eh. He will do for now I guess. But if we don't keep an eye on him, he will fall back on the "old ways". The "republicans are our friends, just a little misunderstood" crap. He's already doing it a little.

Like I said before, if Biden doesn't put some real effort into reforming basic things in our society, someone worse than Trump could be elected next. We need to stay vigilant, vote, and don't let the Democrats slide back into their comfort zone. There should be no comfort until there is equality and justice.

Petitions, calls, peaceful protests, etc; we shouldn't stop just because Biden won the election.
 

AdrianXXII

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The way I heard some out it is β€œyou might not be racist, homophobic or transohobic yourself, but by supporting him, you're kind of signalling you're okay with it".

Regarding Biden the only thing i honestly really expect him to do, is stuff the holes Trump as has revealed and fix the damage Trump has caused. Hopefully he can also lay some of the ground work for others more left leaning politicians to build upon.
 

Sephiroth0812

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The way I heard some out it is β€œyou might not be racist, homophobic or transohobic yourself, but by supporting him, you're kind of signalling you're okay with it".

Regarding Biden the only thing i honestly really expect him to do, is stuff the holes Trump as has revealed and fix the damage Trump has caused. Hopefully he can also lay some of the ground work for others more left leaning politicians to build upon.

Eh, some of these people might even privately not okay with the bigotry, hatred and racism surrounding Trump and his devoted fanbase, but they choose to ignore it because there are some policies they like.
The thing is though that with such cherry picking you become complicit in enabling the real shitty things to happen and that's where it often gets really ugly because many people when called out on how they enabled injustice to flourish tend to get indignant or feel insulted rather than admit they made an error with costly consequences.

Biden will have enough on his plate to try and undo as much of the damage Trump caused in his term, getting as close to the before-Trump status quo as possible. I doubt he will be able to implement actual lasting progressive changes especially if in the next mid-terms the Republicans get back either the Senate or the House.
As long as scumbags like Ted Cruz, Mitch McConnell and similar ilk are still in positions of power high enough they will sabotage any progress wherever they can and Biden will have to spent much energy in countering it.

Biden is essentially a President with the mandate for damage control, it is not advised to expect wonders and a great leap forward with him.
Some people already tout Biden as the next Franklin D. Roosevelt but I doubt that comparison can hold water overall.

As @kirabook said though, Biden should not fall into the same trap as Obama and seek compromise with the Republicans so often it goes to the detriment of his own goals. Having the whole congress blue now should be used to get some basic things put in place the Republicans can't overturn at the next possible opportunity, also always having in mind the thanks to Trump poisoned Supreme Court.

The Democrats really come over as being often too naive and sabotaging themselves by trying to reach consensus with the Republicans who on their turf often prove to be ruthless enough to screw the Democrats over whenever they can for some petty selfish interests.
 

HeartsProdigy

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Biden is... eh. He will do for now I guess. But if we don't keep an eye on him, he will fall back on the "old ways". The "republicans are our friends, just a little misunderstood" crap. He's already doing it a little.

Like I said before, if Biden doesn't put some real effort into reforming basic things in our society, someone worse than Trump could be elected next. We need to stay vigilant, vote, and don't let the Democrats slide back into their comfort zone. There should be no comfort until there is equality and justice.

Petitions, calls, peaceful protests, etc; we shouldn't stop just because Biden won the election.

Exactly my feeling. :LOL: Though if he get impeached in the future. I still doubt Harris will do any better than him.
 

Ballad of Caius

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The fight between Liberalism and Conservatism, plus the pushing of identity politics has caused the shitstorm that was Donald Trump. When a fraction of both sides got tired of the stereotypical politician, an idiot like Trump came, marketed himself different from the other two parties, and pave way for his own cult of voters. Trumpists haven't noticed it, but Trump was another typical politician.

"Drain the swamp"
- Didn't happen

#LockHerUp
- lol Hillary's laughing RN
 

kirabook

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It is true, back in 2016, people were looking for a metaphorical brick to throw through the window. For the conservatives, they lined up behind Trump. For lefties, they lined up behind Bernie. The liberals, unable to read the room, lined up behind Hillary and failed spectacularly because they just don't get it.

That's what I'm worried about. They don't understand that some people still want to throw a metaphorical brick through the window, but now for a lot of right wingers, they LITERALLY want to throw a brick through a window and that's exactly what they did on January 6th.

If liberals, not lefties, but liberals get up on their high horse again talking about how they're "triangulating" and they're the perfect specimens between the "far left" and the "far right", then they will fail.

There are some basic things they could do to benefit everyone. Even if some idiot right wingers will kick and scream about it, they'll never want to let it go once they have it. One example is Medicare for All. It can go the way of Social Security, most right wingers wouldn't dare let you take their social security away from them (even though if it were being talked about today in the modern age they'd be against it)

Medicare for All can save the government and tax payers money. It can save lives. It's such a win win situation, the only ones losing are the insurance companies that right wingers also hate dealing with.

It honestly shouldn't even be debatable at this point. What I wouldn't give to be able to walk into a hospital and not question whether or not my insurance card is up to date because my employer changes it every 3 months.
 

maryadavies

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Kira; I'm with you on medicare for all. Believe me, being on disability..and medicare and medicaid..is NO picnic either. I can't find a GOOD psych, I worry sometimes that the doctor I have isn't the best, I worry that sometimes they'd go for the most EXTREME treatment for some stuff..you get the idea. (Like with fibroids, the threat was I'd get a hysterectomy, which I put my foot down about. They do that a lot, and for me it's not necessary yet.)

I just want to be able to get better treatment and that won't be possible unless every doctor out there accepts Medicare. So we need Medicare for All first, and if they did it in such a way that if you could also have private insurance, that'd prolly appease the insurance companies. (By that I mean do it like they do in Australia). Also they do need to reform medicare and medicaid some, my poor sister can't get the treatment she needs b/c Medicaid won't cover it ><. They need to fix that, and I'm sure my sister's condition isn't the only one in the donut hole.
 

Elysium

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Some people already tout Biden as the next Franklin D. Roosevelt but I doubt that comparison can hold water overall.
Nah. The Clintons were more an example of the Roosevelts than Biden. Fun fact is the Roosevelts were notoriously hated while they were alive although they are responsible for the world we live in being a much better place. People see change as evil, even if it's good change.

It's sad because Hillary's candidacy tells us what likely would've happened to Eleanor Roosevelt if she had been able to run for president in those days. The Republicans have been trying to "lock her up" since HRC first came on the national stage as First Lady thirty years ago, partly because they couldn't handle a dreaded feminist in the White House and partly for revenge that she helped take down Nixon. The problem though is a person has to commit a crime first before you can lock them up. Running for president while female doesn't count, lol. But, really, that was all the chant was really about--her gender. The first woman who ever ran for president in history (not as one of the major parties) was actually thrown in jail a night before the election on nonsensical charges and then released after the election was over... Casting a female candidate as somehow criminal isn't a new thing--knowing voters will play along because for many, it feels innately "wrong" for a woman to be on a stage where there's never been one--and there's no doubt it was a tactical decision. Just like birtherism against Obama.

To kirabook: Liberals are the Left. The Bernie types are "the fringe" or "the socialists," not "lefties." Biden's win this year tells us Hillary's loss was mostly due to external factors; the opposing side couldn't repeat things like social media misinformation tactics or Comey's letter because everyone remembered their game from four years ago. If her politics was what turned off white men in the Midwest, they wouldn't have overwhelmingly abandoned Bernie for Biden in the primary last January.... I suppose the next woman that attempts to run for president should come from the Midwest. Maybe their misogyny won't be off the charts with "one of their own"--but I doubt it. That's partly why I wish a woman had been the Dem nominee in 2020, since the way people acted with the first woman who ran would be fresh in everyone's minds when they repeat that same behavior with the next woman. It would make it easier to see it for what it really is.
 
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Ballad of Caius

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There were people saying that Hillary could have performed better if her campaign was more active in some areas. After reading the electoral map, I think she still would have lost as bad as she did in last cycle.

What helped the Dems this time around was their sweeping of the House in the Midterms because of higher turnouts, changing demographics in Republican areas, Trump's disastrous COVID response and the mai-in ballot.

Seriously, mail-in ballot is a political Godsend.

People are interested in voting, but not interesting in actually going to vote.

What better way to do this than to just receive a ballot and mail it?

It was political suicide from the GOP to mock and undermine mail-in votes.

Whoever is in charge of the Republican Marketing, as aberrant as it is, not taking mail-in as an opportunity is stupid.

Trump's ego was also responsible of his own loss. He could have done a couple of things that could have politically given him a breather, but thankfully he didn't.
 

AdrianXXII

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Eh, some of these people might even privately not okay with the bigotry, hatred and racism surrounding Trump and his devoted fanbase, but they choose to ignore it because there are some policies they like.
The thing is though that with such cherry picking you become complicit in enabling the real shitty things to happen and that's where it often gets really ugly because many people when called out on how they enabled injustice to flourish tend to get indignant or feel insulted rather than admit they made an error with costly consequences.

I'd argue they're not just enabling. I didn't mean the person voting for him would actually think it's okay (though obviously it's not a dealbreaker to them either), but to an outside observer it'd seem like they endorse and support the bigotry and think it's acceptable, unless they go out of their way to vocalize their disagreement. We've seen that after his election, with the increase in openly bigotry actions.
People felt emboldened because the guy talking like them got elected. The result is that people like Trump's devoted fanbase will then get the impression that their attitude is accepted and more widely spread than it actually is.

I'm honestly of the believe that a sizable number of the votes for Trump, were more votes against the Democrats and for the Republican party than outright for him. A lot of Trump Supporters won't see it that way though.

Biden will have enough on his plate to try and undo as much of the damage Trump caused in his term, getting as close to the before-Trump status quo as possible. I doubt he will be able to implement actual lasting progressive changes especially if in the next mid-terms the Republicans get back either the Senate or the House.
As long as scumbags like Ted Cruz, Mitch McConnell and similar ilk are still in positions of power high enough they will sabotage any progress wherever they can and Biden will have to spent much energy in countering it.

Biden is essentially a President with the mandate for damage control, it is not advised to expect wonders and a great leap forward with him.
Some people already tout Biden as the next Franklin D. Roosevelt but I doubt that comparison can hold water overall.
Yeah, Biden's job will basically be to clean stuff up and leave a good impression so that the Democrats don't lose the house and senate in the midterms or the Presidency in 4 years. But even that seems like a herculean task.
The issue with the Democratic party is that it's a party that's trying to cover everything from the left to the right and keeping all of those groups happy is impossible.

On the upside it seems Bernie will be making some (hopefully) lasting changes that'll see the minimum wage go up, which should help in the recovery process.

Something that confuses me is that some of the most vocal Republicans like to act as if some of the suggested stuff from the Left won't work and would lead to ruin, while working perfectly well in the rest of the world. Sure the systems aren't perfect, but by adapting it later on they have the advantage of experience they can work with and try and improve upon.

People are interested in voting, but not interesting in actually going to vote.
I think for most it's more a matter of not being able to and certain areas making it next to impossible to do. In some counties you had to stand in line for hours upon hours just to cast your vote, something you'd never see here in Switzerland.

Also lots of employers don't give their employees the day off to go voting. Being allowed to mail it in early solves that problem. So I imagine the Republicans will do whatever they can to remove mail-in-ballots as soon as they can.
 

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I totally disagree Tartarus.

Medicare for all isn't "socialist" or "radical" and yet it's something modern day liberals fear. In the 90's Hillary Clinton was championing Medicare for All with everything she had. She and Bernie Sanders were working on it together hand in hand and she was torn down and beaten over it.

Had Hillary Clinton in 2016 continued supporting ideas like she did in the 1990's, I don't think there'd be a political divide between democrats/liberals and lefties these days.

There certainly is one right now and it has nothing to do with the fridge. It's also easy to define who is a "leftie" and who is a "liberal". Where do you stand on Medicare for All? If you're like the Republicans and keep calling it a socialist dream or unicorn poop, then you're a liberal. You're theoretically on the right side of the issue yet you give Republicans and right wingers fuel by agreeing with their framing. Same can be said for issues like foreign policy (That whole mess with the attempted Venezuelan coup and the Bolivia coup)

It's not radical or fringe to understand Medicare for All is not a socialist wet dream, but something most other industrialized nations have been able to make work in some way. We can do the same.

It's not a socialist wet dream to say, "Hey, maybe let's mind our own business a little bit and not politically and militarily support coups in South America?" America has a shitty history involving South America already, it's time to stop.

Until liberal Democrats stop proudly proclaiming how they're totallllly not crazy enough to think Medicare for All can work (among other things) and that the Republicans are right that it's just communist socialist ideas invading our politics, then I don't think they're very "left" anymore. In the 90's, these people would have been the Republican party, and the current Republican Party have already fallen off the political cliff to where a good portion of them really think invading the Capitol was a good idea.

As for Hillary herself, I have no doubts that she was up against a lot of sexism among voters, but overall, I don't think that's what completely caused her downfall. It was more than one thing, such as not campaigning in person in some of the rust belt because she assumed she had those areas on lock down. I don't really like Kamala Harris or Clinton, but I think if Kamala Harris had been in Clinton's place, maybe she could've pulled it off. Kamala seems more charismatic and tactical with her words, while Clinton feels awkward ("pokemon-go to the polls!"). For some people, that matters a lot, enough to encourage or discourage them to vote.

If the primaries had been Kamala vs Bernie only and Kamala won, I think Kamala could have pulled off a 2016 victory.

Though, Kamala may have faced a different issue. Racism, especially right after Obama was president. So who can really say.
 
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Elysium

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In the 90's Hillary Clinton was championing Medicare for All with everything she had.
I know. Hillary would've refined Obama's ideas and moved us further towards a workable Medicare For All. Mostly I define the socialists and fringe by their anti-capitalist rhetoric and their all-or-nothing virtue signaling. They don't understand the meaning of gradual (the true meaning of the word "progress"--which is why I always refuse to call them progressives because that's not what they are, imo), and that's why they themselves are the greatest barriers to accomplishing what they want which is ironic.

As for foreign policy, there's clearly a moral divide there. Some people think all war = evil. Whereas I believe war against someone murdering their own people or committing genocide is justifiable if overthrowing the person in charge is actually possible. I wish Hillary had won just so she could have put Assad to death. I wish she had accomplished the uprising that nearly killed Putin while she was Secretary of State, too. The world would be a better place for it and that's why most of those forces were united against her candidacy. I honestly believe people like Bernie and Tulsi were a part of the same plot. They talk about foreign policy in naive terms, like a Pro-Life nut talks about abortion. If you're for war of any kind, then you're Anti-Life. How ridiculous. Thank God our ancestors recognized the need for war, otherwise the German Empire would have been running the world for most of the last 70 years. To me, what's immoral is doing nothing or being silent in the face of such evil if you feel there is something you can do. It's not always possible, like with North Korea or China, for example, but sometimes it is. I see their kind of rhetoric as really just a front for furthering the interest of our enemies--they want us to do nothing while they invade places like Ukraine and install more puppets around the world like they did in Syria and Turkey (and Trump in the U.S.).

Though, Kamala may have faced a different issue. Racism, especially right after Obama was president. So who can really say.
Oh, I think Hillary faced some of that, too. The Clintons tied themselves so much to Obama, and I'm sure to the racists that congregated around Trump, she was seen in some sense like a traitor to her own "kind." I still remember the news stories about puppets of her and Obama being hung from nooses around the country during that election. Honestly, BernieBros still dabble in latent sexism when it comes to examination of what went down in 2016. They always want to discount things like Comey's letter five days before Election Day or unprecedented Russian interference even though they like to cling to the idea that Bernie would've won even though he couldn't beat Hillary or Biden. They don't want to see Hillary Clinton as a victim because in their eyes only someone pure--someone they like--can really be a "victim," but anyone could tell you a person doesn't have to be a saint to also have been a victim. I think that was why 2016 was so devastating for a lot of people, because in a lot of ways it felt like a year long hate crime in progress with the way she was treated--not just from the opposing party and the media, but from men within her own party. It just shows that no matter how progressive some on the Left claim to be, they have their own hang-ups. It reminds me of an episode of All in the Family with the progressive son-in-law who's all outspoken for civil rights until it concerns rights for or the voice of his wife. Then it's another story.
 
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kirabook

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Americans are pretty much only focus on American politics. Bernie is moderate/centrist outside of America, but in America, liberals think he's Stalin's brother or something.
 
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