True Organzation 13 unidentified members

[edtheiii]

No I know what you meant. But, a person who time travels must return to their original time and they cannot alter the path of fate. It can be implied then that they return the way they came. Making her a vessel is definitely altering her path of fate.


also, the rules of time travel are explained by Xehanort at the beach I think but Nomura elaborates. If they were all just hearts... I mean that doesn't make sense.

Ok, to preface - I'm asking this, not to contradict you, but to glean information in an area I'm confused about.

Technically, couldn't have Xion always had a piece of Xehanort inside her, since her creation (dormant or something, kind of like Xigbar)? Then using whatever method YX does to pick up people from the past (like he did w/ Xemnas/Ansem) he would grab Xion similarly. Then, once the whole 13 vs 7 battle is done - Xion would return to her timeline none the wiser.

Once again, I've shifted my opinion to NOT believing that Xion will be a darkness, I'm just wondering why she couldn't be one.

I don't see why there couldn't be any Disney or FF villains.

It's not that they couldn't be darknesses. It's just that, IMO, I don't see Nomura writing any of them in, just because. FF villains are sort of their own animals, and Disney villains just don't feel right. Feel free to have a different opinion. Btw - big Mitsuru fan; I'm glad I'll have P5 to tide me over for FFXV and 2.8 (hopefully).

 

[Dandelion]

Ok, to preface - I'm asking this, not to contradict you, but to glean information in an area I'm confused about.

Technically, couldn't have Xion always had a piece of Xehanort inside her, since her creation (dormant or something, kind of like Xigbar)? Then using whatever method YX does to pick up people from the past (like he did w/ Xemnas/Ansem) he would grab Xion similarly. Then, once the whole 13 vs 7 battle is done - Xion would return to her timeline none the wiser.

Because, Xehanort's vessels all have something painfully obvious in common, and without those golden eyes and pointy ears, I don't think ANY of the heroes from the past qualify.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Because, Xehanort's vessels all have something painfully obvious in common, and without those golden eyes and pointy ears, I don't think ANY of the heroes from the past qualify.

What exactly is stopping Xehanort from just pulling them out of their timeline and norting them, again?

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Technically, couldn't have Xion always had a piece of Xehanort inside her, since her creation (dormant or something, kind of like Xigbar)?

The main question however would be how that would have been even logically possible.
Braig (and most likely Vanitas) were already seeded when the "main" Xehanort was still around back during the time of BBS and we do not know when Isa was seeded (the earliest we see Saix he already has the golden eyes and pointy ears).
By the time Xion was created the main Xehanort was no longer around, only Xemnas and while Ansem SoD was also there, he wasn't really involved with the Organisation, so how could Xion have been seeded?
Xemnas certainly didn't just seed her (with what actually?), as if he could just seed anyone as he pleased he would not have done all that work to build an artificial KH in order to seed every member of the Organisation as Xigbar explained in DDD. The whole charade with the brainwashing by propaganda and lying about them not being able to gain hearts for such a long time would not have been necessary if Xemnas had been able to create Xehanort seeds on his own.

Because, Xehanort's vessels all have something painfully obvious in common, and without those golden eyes and pointy ears, I don't think ANY of the heroes from the past qualify.

As I pointed out above, it's also worth to point out that there was no one who actually could perform a "manual" seeding by the time CoM/Days and KH 2 roll around.

---
@Black Osprey:
For beings like Xion, Roxas or Naminé it was their destiny to rejoin with Sora and Kairi respectively. Going into/pulling them from the past and nort them there would change their fates which isn't possible.
Not to mention they are all three beings of only a heart which is useless to Xehanort, as he does not want hearts, he wants bodies.

 

[edtheiii]

By the time Xion was created the main Xehanort was no longer around, only Xemnas and while Ansem SoD was also there, he wasn't really involved with the Organisation, so how could Xion have been seeded?

Thanks Sephy, color me convinced.

 

[Empress Mitsuru]

All but Confirmed
7. Vanitas (gear chess piece)

Does that actually prove anything? Saix's weapon looks like that too.

 

[Wonderful]

i think the more damning "all but confirmed" evidence for vanitas is his eyes

 

[Dandelion]

Does that actually prove anything? Saix's weapon looks like that too.

The split gear chess piece is exactly like vanitas's keychain, and bares little resemblance to Saix's moonburst like claymore. (Which also has an entirely different piece on the board.)

the chess pieces don't have to mean anything but it's unlikely that they're just for show considering how they bare the characters iconography

 

[edtheiii]

i think the more damning "all but confirmed" evidence for vanitas is his eyes

This got me thinking... it was heavily implied, if not confirmed, at the end of 3D that all members the true org XIII came from another point in time: "Neither the union of light nor darkness has been achieved, and we must all return whence we came. But, the gathering of the 13 and blah blah..." They all then disappeared in the exact same way - into little particles of darkness, including those who definitely were there via time travel, which would imply that they were all brought there via that method.

So, using this conclusion, we can also conclude that all True Org XIII members (except the thirteenth) have been so since before Terranort split himself off into a heartless/nobody, since if they were turned into a Xeha-clone post his revival, there would have been no need to time travel away. Further, since we can distinguish members by their eye color (as far as we know), that rules out basically every other member of the original Org XIII, even Luxord; since we would have noticed by now if their eyes were golden (both Xigbar and Saix have always had golden eyes).

I'm skeptical of the logic though, as it presents a few major issues. For one, if all of the first 12 members were time traveling to that point - what about Terranort? It wouldn't really make sense for him to time travel, since he's already been reformed and should exist in the current time as sort of the docking point for the rest of the Xehanorts. Also, if I'm right, that means that there are 5 members (12 - MX, Xemnas, Ansem, Saix, Xigbar, YX, & Vanitas) that had to have been seeded before Xemnas/Ansem were formed. Ruling out the rest of the Org gives us very few bodies to fill up these spots, and it's (imo) pretty unlikely Nomura would fill these spots w/ faces we've never seen before.

Well, at this point I'm talking myself in circles, so I'll stop now. Any thoughts?

EDIT: See Tinny's post. I'm apparently highly uninformed.

 

[Dandelion]

This got me thinking... it was heavily implied, if not confirmed, at the end of 3D that all members the true org XIII came from another point in time: "Neither the union of light nor darkness has been achieved, and we must all return whence we came. But, the gathering of the 13 and blah blah..." They all then disappeared in the exact same way - into little particles of darkness, including those who definitely were there via time travel, which would imply that they were all brought there via that method.

Actually, Nomura almost immediately confirmed the opposite:

—Were the 13 Seekers of Darkness, who were meant to be in different times, gathered by transcending time with magic?Nomura: Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must ‘first’ discard their form. As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time.

 

[edtheiii]

Awesome, where does everyone find all these quotes? - I need to read up on some Nomura interviews.

Edit - Sorry, should try a google search before I ask stupid questions. I don't have access to the main site, since I'm at work, but I can access this - http://forums.khinsider.com/future-kingdom-hearts/176788-nomura-interviews-archive.html

and this - http://forums.khinsider.com/dream-d...ra-interview-future-kh-announcement-soon.html

 

[Wonderful]

Awesome, where does everyone find all these quotes? - I need to read up on some Nomura interviews.

you can find all the interviews on the main site - Kingdom Hearts Insider - just click on whatever game, then interviews for all of the interviews about that game. to start off though, here are the biggest, most crucial ones:

Kingdom Hearts Ultimania -- Main Interview (1, 2), Scenario Mysteries Interview (1, 2)
Chain of Memories Ultimania -- Main Interview
Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania -- Main Interview, Scenario Mysteries Interview
Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix Ultimania -- Main Interview, Scenario Mysteries Interview
Another Report -- Director's Secret Report XIII
358/2 Days Ultimania -- Main Interview, Scenario Mysteries Interview
Birth By Sleep Ultimania -- Main Interview, Scenario Mysteries Interview
Re:Coded Ultimania -- Main Interview, Scenario Mysteries Interview
Dream Drop Distance Ultimania -- Main Interview, Scenario Mysteries Interview

keep in mind though some of the older interviews might contradict newer games

 

[Echoecho6]

I think Xaldin has a good chance, he seemed pure evil from what we saw of him. Or did we see his somebody return in Radiant Garden with the others? I forget, sorry.

Also now that we know Marluxia is a possible and a likely member, going back to the chess pieces, did anyone see one that could resemble him?

 

[BlackOsprey]

I think Xaldin has a good chance, he seemed pure evil from what we saw of him. Or did we see his somebody return in Radiant Garden with the others? I forget, sorry.

Yep, Xaldin's Somebody, Dilan, returned to RG during the events of Dream Drop Distance. And if the Re:Coded movie's anything to go off of, Trollanort and Braig were right there, but decided to not use him for whatever reason.

 

[Chuman]

Let's recap

1. MX
2. Xemnas
3. ASoD
4. YMX
5. Braig
6. Isa

Vanitas isn't farfetched, he has the xehanort eyes, and terra is closer to the darknesses than lights but how it works out remains to be seen.

 

[Wonderful]

1 - Master Xehanort
2 - Xemnas
3 - Ansem
4 - Xigbar
5 -
6 -
7 - Isa
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 -
12 - Young Xehanort
13 -

is also how they're seated.

Vanitas + Terra could easily fit seats 5 and 6, since the implication is that 5/6 were members norted between Braig in BBS and Isa.

 

[Chuman]

1 - Master Xehanort
2 - Xemnas
3 - Ansem
4 - Xigbar
5 -
6 -
7 - Isa
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 -
12 - Young Xehanort
13 -

is also how they're seated.

Vanitas + Terra could easily fit seats 5 and 6, since the implication is that 5/6 were members norted between Braig in BBS and Isa.

I wonder if its possible for ven to be a darkness, considering his heart is in pieces and all, but he's pure light and i think one of the guardians so idk lol

 

[BlackOsprey]

I wonder if its possible for ven to be a darkness, considering his heart is in pieces and all, but he's pure light and i think one of the guardians so idk lol

If Xehanort could locate Ven's body in Castle Oblivion, probably. It's a perfect option- a physically intact, empty shell with no annoying heart to get in the way.

 

[Chuman]

If Xehanort could locate Ven's body in Castle Oblivion, probably. It's a perfect option- a physically intact, empty shell with no annoying heart to get in the way.

There was a reason xemnas wanted to find the chamber of sleep, he knew ven was in there but his flunkies failed; maybe he's waiting for sora to save aqua and get past the perimeter defenses so he can swoop in and kidnapp his former ward.

 

[Empress Mitsuru]

So, using this conclusion, we can also conclude that all True Org XIII members (except the thirteenth) have been so since before Terranort split himself off into a heartless/nobody, since if they were turned into a Xeha-clone post his revival, there would have been no need to time travel away. Further, since we can distinguish members by their eye color (as far as we know), that rules out basically every other member of the original Org XIII, even Luxord; since we would have noticed by now if their eyes were golden (both Xigbar and Saix have always had golden eyes) .

I don't see how that rules Luxord out.