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To gain their body back, why didn't they just kill themselfs?



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Nayru's Love

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They could have easily been slain around the same time.
At least thousands of Heartless have existed around the time of their revival, the odds of Sora slaying the Heartless of 5 Organization members at the same time and towards the end of KH2 are severely slim, so much that it's virtually unrealistic.

Nomura says their Heartless weren't important which confirms that they did indeed have Heartless, so their hearts could not have gone to the Artificial Kingdom Hearts.
This may sound kinda stubborn, but the way Nomura worded it sounded pretty off. He's implying that the odds of Sora encountering their Heartless are high, but only because of the sheer amount of Heartless Sora has slain. I would sooner say that Sora defeated the Emblem Heartless that may have taken their hearts (which, ironically, goes against one of my original points) over a long timespan.
 

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At least thousands of Heartless have existed around the time of their revival, the odds of Sora slaying the Heartless of 5 Organization members at the same time and towards the end of KH2 are severely slim, so much that it's virtually unrealistic.

He did slay 1000 Heartless in one go in Radiant Garden. While that wasn't near the end and and I'm not using as a point that he could have defeated them there because that would have meant the hearts would have gone to the Artificial KH, I don't doubt he can accomplish defeating many of them in a small period of time if he needed to.
 

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He did slay 1000 Heartless in one go in Radiant Garden. While that wasn't near the end and and I'm not using as a point that he could have defeated them there because that would have meant the hearts would have gone to the Artificial KH, I don't doubt he can accomplish defeating many of them in a small period of time if he needed to.
That argument can actually go both ways. There exists the possibility that Sora could have slain the Pureblood Heartless of anyone from the Organization anytime other than near the end.
 
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Those whose hearts are stolen by Emblems however become Emblems themselves, that was even shown in a cutscene during KH 1 when Sora first enters the second district in Traverse.

No it wasn't? All we saw was some guy running (from what we don't know), trip, fall, his heart gets released and then a Soldier Heartless is born. We don't see any other Emblem Heartless. In fact, directly after that, a bunch of shadows pop up and attack Sora.
Even if that was the case, that another Emblem Heartless turned him into an Emblem as well, you can't just assume that's valid in all cases based only on one instance.

They could have easily been slain around the same time.

Nomura says their Heartless weren't important which confirms that they did indeed have Heartless, so their hearts could not have gone to the Artificial Kingdom Hearts.

I don't understand how that would mean their hearts could not have gone to the artificial KH, though.
The timing of their revival is too convenient. All of them revived almost simultaneously, and after KH2 no less.

We don't know how long the revival process takes, but it seems too neat to me that they'd all come back right after KH2- as if Sora just so happened to destroy the 4 apprentice Heartless (and Isa/Lea's Heartless) all back to back and at a time which would allow the revival process to complete after KH2. There's too many unknowns there. The simpler explanation, I find, is that somewhere along the line, each of their Heartless were destroyed and their hearts assimilated into the KH of People's Hearts so that when it was destroyed, they were all able to be revived simultaneously (after KH2).
For me it's Occam's Razor.
 

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At least thousands of Heartless have existed around the time of their revival, the odds of Sora slaying the Heartless of 5 Organization members at the same time and towards the end of KH2 are severely slim, so much that it's virtually unrealistic.
As long as he slayed them around Axel dying it would pan out. But my argument is more that the Apprentices hearts didn't go directly to the Artificial Kingdom Hearts. They could have gone there after Sora defeated their Heartless. But there's no way their hearts went there as soon as they became Nobodies considering Nomura openly admits to them all having Heartless. Just because they're unimportant doesn't change the fact that they all had them.

This may sound kinda stubborn, but the way Nomura worded it sounded pretty off. He's implying that the odds of Sora encountering their Heartless are high, but only because of the sheer amount of Heartless Sora has slain. I would sooner say that Sora defeated the Emblem Heartless that may have taken their hearts (which, ironically, goes against one of my original points) over a long timespan.
Why would Emblem Heartless have taken their hearts? From the scene in DDD it appeared that Apprentice Xehanort used the keyblade on the Apprentices (at least Braig, Ienzo and Even).

I don't understand how that would mean their hearts could not have gone to the artificial KH, though.
The timing of their revival is too convenient. All of them revived almost simultaneously, and after KH2 no less.
My point was that they had Heartless which meant their hearts didn't directly go to Xemnas' Kingdom Hearts. They definitely could have been collected by it after their Heartless were slain.

We don't know how long the revival process takes, but it seems too neat to me that they'd all come back right after KH2- as if Sora just so happened to destroy the 4 apprentice Heartless (and Isa/Lea's Heartless) all back to back and at a time which would allow the revival process to complete after KH2. There's too many unknowns there. The simpler explanation, I find, is that somewhere along the line, each of their Heartless were destroyed and their hearts assimilated into the KH of People's Hearts so that when it was destroyed, they were all able to be revived simultaneously (after KH2).
For me it's Occam's Razor.
We know that it varies for each individual, as Aeleus and Dilan weren't fully revived by the time Even, Ienzo and Lea were. So it's not extremely far-fetched for the lot of them to have all been destroyed within a close amount of time.
 

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Well now, look who's back from the dead.

No it wasn't? All we saw was some guy running (from what we don't know), trip, fall, his heart gets released and then a Soldier Heartless is born. We don't see any other Emblem Heartless. In fact, directly after that, a bunch of shadows pop up and attack Sora.
Actually, I interpreted that scene as an already-existing Soldier Heartless capturing the man's heart. Since he technically didn't become a Heartless, his heart wouldn't have been liberated in the same manner and instead go to the Artificial KH. That's how I've always interpreted it, anyways.

But my argument is more that the Apprentices hearts didn't go directly to the Artificial Kingdom Hearts. They could have gone there after Sora defeated their Heartless. But there's no way their hearts went there as soon as they became Nobodies considering Nomura openly admits to them all having Heartless. Just because they're unimportant doesn't change the fact that they all had them.
loool. Guess we came to the same conclusion. But I have my doubts on Braig having a Heartless, anyways.


Why would Emblem Heartless have taken their hearts? From the scene in DDD it appeared that Apprentice Xehanort used the keyblade on the Apprentices (at least Braig, Ienzo and Even).
Xehanort may have just ejected Braig's heart, considering how he summons his keyblade after Even's and Ienzo's deaths. But the Apprentices couldn't have become Pureblood Heartless because Purebloods don't go to the Artificial KH. Assuming, of course, that their hearts went there. Which I still find to be a reasonable assumption.

We know that it varies for each individual, as Aeleus and Dilan weren't fully revived by the time Even, Ienzo and Lea were. So it's not extremely far-fetched for the lot of them to have all been destroyed within a close amount of time.
Axel and Xaldin were defeated at least a year after the others, to say that a difference in revival time affected even just one of the two seems very far-fetched, let alone both of them.
 
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It's a cartoonish video game where a kid swings a giant key around while followed by a talking dog and duck. I think you all are reading way too much into this.
 

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It's a cartoonish video game where a kid swings a giant key around while followed by a talking dog and duck. I think you all are reading way too much into this.
BBS had:
Aqua scarified herself into a total different realm with no way out for 11 if not more years.
Ventus went into a comatose state that lasted 11 if not more years.
Terra got his body stolen and some of his essence resided in armor for 11 if not more years.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.
 

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Vəntus;5966462 said:
BBS had:
Aqua scarified herself into a total different realm with no way out for 11 if not more years.
Ventus went into a comatose state that lasted 11 if not more years.
Terra got his body stolen and some of his essence resided in armor for 11 if not more years.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.
Irrelevant.
This is a discussion where everyone is trying to figure out where in time 5 or 6 heartless were destroyed. All I'm saying is they're reading too far into it because it's impossible to successfully agree on this topic. Seriously, what's done in the series is done and trying to bend through past events so that this all "makes sense" to a person is futile. In. My. Opinion.
 

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Vəntus;5966462 said:
Aqua scarified herself into a total different realm with no way out for 11 if not more years.
Time passes slower in the RoD, so it was more like months to her.

Ventus went into a comatose state that lasted 11 if not more years.
Well that doesn't sound so bad, just chilling there in a coma.

Terra got his body stolen and some of his essence resided in armor for 11 if not more years.
No comment.
 
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My point was that they had Heartless which meant their hearts didn't directly go to Xemnas' Kingdom Hearts. They definitely could have been collected by it after their Heartless were slain.

Ah, ok. Considering that Nomura has said they're probably off somewhere as regular Heartless since the KH2 Ultimania back in 2006, I never thought otherwise.

We know that it varies for each individual, as Aeleus and Dilan weren't fully revived by the time Even, Ienzo and Lea were. So it's not extremely far-fetched for the lot of them to have all been destroyed within a close amount of time.

Well, it should be noted that Dilan and Even were off resting. They had still been revived, we saw them on the floor. (I think the fact that they were "unstable" may be hinting at something but that remains to be seen).

Just want to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible that Sora happened to destroy all of their Heartless at the right time, but that you face more variables which would otherwise be accounted for by the artificial KH explanation. If that were true, the destroyed-Heartless explanation, then there would have been a possibility that each apprentice could have been revived at separate times (Sora could have even met them before the end of KH2). On the other hand, the artificial KH explanation guarantees that they'd have all been revived after KH2 at the same time. I prefer that explanation because it factors out any probability issues, that's all. That and I think it's fitting that the apprentices, who Ansem noted had already been "exploited" by Xehanort, would be used toward the completion of Xemnas' KH.

Well now, look who's back from the dead.


Actually, I interpreted that scene as an already-existing Soldier Heartless capturing the man's heart. Since he technically didn't become a Heartless, his heart wouldn't have been liberated in the same manner and instead go to the Artificial KH. That's how I've always interpreted it, anyways.

I've never really been gone! Or, sort of over the winter break but I'm just not posting as much anymore.

I'm not sure I follow--you think he didn't become a Heartless? But his heart was stolen by one? It was made clear by the AR that the Heartless multiply by stealing.
 

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I've never really been gone! Or, sort of over the winter break but I'm just not posting as much anymore.
Well I guess there's a certain level of truth that "no one dies in KHI" maintains...

I'm not sure I follow--you think he didn't become a Heartless? But his heart was stolen by one? It was made clear by the AR that the Heartless multiply by stealing.
Purebloods multiply like that, anyways. The main difference between Purebloods and Emblems is their birth process, to which I interpreted that as Purebloods are born by nature, whereas Emblems are born by machine.
 

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Well I guess there's a certain level of truth that "no one dies in KHI" maintains...


Purebloods multiply like that, anyways. The main difference between Purebloods and Emblems is their birth process, to which I interpreted that as Purebloods are born by nature, whereas Emblems are born by machine.

But if this is the case wouldn't there be a lot more Purebloods and a lot less Emblems seeing they haven't been produced in quite sometime. The number of Emblems greatly out number the umber of Purebloods in the series so far.
 

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That's actually what I've been trying to get around, actually. If anything, it's possible that there's a difference between a Pureblood birth and an Emblem birth that we don't necessarily see, assuming Emblems can be born outside of the machine. In fact, I was thinking that the emblem itself is a Mark of Heresy.

It certainly goes well with how Riku, after the data explosion, didn't have the mark. Specifically on his keychain, though, which was the Heartless emblem without the X.
 

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Whoops, forgot to check back in here to reply!

loool. Guess we came to the same conclusion. But I have my doubts on Braig having a Heartless, anyways.
I thought you were trying to say that none of the Apprentices had Heartless though? But there's no way that he didn't have one. I mean, I won't argue that there's no chance that the hearts went to Xemnas' KH but I am going to say that it would make little sense (my reasoning is explained at the end of my post).

Xehanort may have just ejected Braig's heart, considering how he summons his keyblade after Even's and Ienzo's deaths. But the Apprentices couldn't have become Pureblood Heartless because Purebloods don't go to the Artificial KH. Assuming, of course, that their hearts went there. Which I still find to be a reasonable assumption.
Braig could have also just walked in the room. It's hard to say for certain what exactly happened in that scene since it's mostly insinuated but I'm pretty confident that AX attacked them all with his keyblade. Hopefully KH3 will be able to clear it up in the reports so there's no room for confusion.

Axel and Xaldin were defeated at least a year after the others, to say that a difference in revival time affected even just one of the two seems very far-fetched, let alone both of them.
Didn't Nomura sort of debunk his own rule of it mattering which order the Heartless and Nobodies were destroyed in? I'm pretty sure he did at least, but I don't really want to dig through interviews. And if he did, then it doesn't really matter when the Nobodies were defeated, it matters when the Heartless were.

Ah, ok. Considering that Nomura has said they're probably off somewhere as regular Heartless since the KH2 Ultimania back in 2006, I never thought otherwise.
Yeah, that's why I never thought otherwise either.

Well, it should be noted that Dilan and Even were off resting. They had still been revived, we saw them on the floor. (I think the fact that they were "unstable" may be hinting at something but that remains to be seen).
That's actually an interesting thought. I never really considered that the two of them being unstable, but I'd really enjoy it if what you're insinuating were true.

Just want to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible that Sora happened to destroy all of their Heartless at the right time, but that you face more variables which would otherwise be accounted for by the artificial KH explanation. If that were true, the destroyed-Heartless explanation, then there would have been a possibility that each apprentice could have been revived at separate times (Sora could have even met them before the end of KH2). On the other hand, the artificial KH explanation guarantees that they'd have all been revived after KH2 at the same time. I prefer that explanation because it factors out any probability issues, that's all. That and I think it's fitting that the apprentices, who Ansem noted had already been "exploited" by Xehanort, would be used toward the completion of Xemnas' KH.
I'm willing to accept the probability that the Apprentices hearts went to Xemnas' KH after their Heartless were destroyed. I just definitely don't see how they could have gone directly to KH without being Heartless first which was my main issue with the theory.


Upon more thought though, it really doesn't make any sense at all for the Apprentices to have become Emblems. Like Sora, they should have become Purebloods. And if they did, their hearts for sure would not have gone to Xemnas' KH. So why couldn't their hearts have gone to the RoD in wait until their Nobodies had been destroyed? Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that but Sora becoming an Pureblood in itself is pretty good evidence that the Apprentices would have also become them as their Nobodies were created in a similar fashion.
 

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So why couldn't their hearts have gone to the RoD in wait until their Nobodies had been destroyed? Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that but Sora becoming an Pureblood in itself is pretty good evidence that the Apprentices would have also become them as their Nobodies were created in a similar fashion.

The main issue with that notion is that it doesn't add up with the time of their revival. If their hearts were just in the RoD waiting for the Nobodies to be destroyed Even should have been revived way before all the others since Vexen was the first Organisation member to be eliminated.

Even if there is a certain time between the destruction of both Heartless and Nobody before revival happens, it would be quite the coincidence if they all had so convenient different revival times that they all pop up at the same time in Radiant Garden.
 

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The main issue with that notion is that it doesn't add up with the time of their revival. If their hearts were just in the RoD waiting for the Nobodies to be destroyed Even should have been revived way before all the others since Vexen was the first Organisation member to be eliminated.

Even if there is a certain time between the destruction of both Heartless and Nobody before revival happens, it would be quite the coincidence if they all had so convenient different revival times that they all pop up at the same time in Radiant Garden.
I never got why the members who died in COM were revived at the same time with the members who died in kh2. Didnt really make sense. I would call that a plot hole, or i could have missed an explanation during the game.
 

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it would be quite the coincidence if they all had so convenient different revival times that they all pop up at the same time in Radiant Garden.

I'm still really bugged by this. They all basically revived at the same time (with differing levels of completion since Terranort and Braig were the first ones to gain consciousness), but why?

Did something happen in Coded that would have sparked them to revive at the same time? Since it appears that the first cutscene happens after Coded but slightly before Sora and Riku get to Mysterious Tower.
 

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I never got why the members who died in COM were revived at the same time with the members who died in kh2. Didnt really make sense. I would call that a plot hole, or i could have missed an explanation during the game.

It isn't a plothole if you go by the explanation provided that their hearts were part of the artificial KH made by Xemnas. In that KH millions of Hearts were captured and prevented from joining their bodies and revive (which is btw another of the reasons why the Organisation had to be eradicated). When Sora and Riku destroyed that KH at the end of KH 2 all those hearts were freed, at the same time.
This adds up conveniently with the fact that the former Organisation members were revived at the same time, because their hearts were set free at the same time.

I'm still really bugged by this. They all basically revived at the same time (with differing levels of completion since Terranort and Braig were the first ones to gain consciousness), but why?

Did something happen in Coded that would have sparked them to revive at the same time? Since it appears that the first cutscene happens after Coded but slightly before Sora and Riku get to Mysterious Tower.

See above, that explanation has been given since the japanese release of DDD and it adds up with what we saw.

The first cutscene in DDD takes place nine years in the past, not after Coded.
The only thing which we are discussing here seems to be about the nature of the apprentices Heartless, and frankly, they cannot have been Purebloods in order for the issue to work, their Heartless need to be Emblems.
 
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