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To gain their body back, why didn't they just kill themselfs?



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Zettaflare

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It isn't a plothole if you go by the explanation provided that their hearts were part of the artificial KH made by Xemnas. In that KH millions of Hearts were captured and prevented from joining their bodies and revive (which is btw another of the reasons why the Organisation had to be eradicated). When Sora and Riku destroyed that KH at the end of KH 2 all those hearts were freed, at the same time.
This adds up conveniently with the fact that the former Organisation members were revived at the same time, because their hearts were set free at the same time.



See above, that explanation has been given since the japanese release of DDD and it adds up with what we saw.

The first cutscene in DDD takes place nine years in the past, not after Coded.
The only thing which we are discussing here seems to be about the nature of the apprentices Heartless, and frankly, they cannot have been Purebloods in order for the issue to work, their Heartless need to be Emblems.

Thanks for the explanation sephiroth. Not a big fan of the organization are you?
 
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Well I guess there's a certain level of truth that "no one dies in KHI" maintains...

Had a chuckle.

That's actually what I've been trying to get around, actually. If anything, it's possible that there's a difference between a Pureblood birth and an Emblem birth that we don't necessarily see, assuming Emblems can be born outside of the machine. In fact, I was thinking that the emblem itself is a Mark of Heresy.

It certainly goes well with how Riku, after the data explosion, didn't have the mark. Specifically on his keychain, though, which was the Heartless emblem without the X.

Yeah, that's what I take issue with because until we know of some alternate means of the Emblems spreading, then your idea would suggest there's a finite number, which appears not to be the case.
I actually like the idea of the Emblems being branded with the Mark of Heresy. Basically suggests that all of those Heartless were the results of his experiments to see which among those test subjects could endure his darkness (and produce a worthy vessel). Though at the same time I wouldn't go so far as to suggest he split his heart thousands, maybe even millions of times to try and shove it in them lol.

I'm willing to accept the probability that the Apprentices hearts went to Xemnas' KH after their Heartless were destroyed. I just definitely don't see how they could have gone directly to KH without being Heartless first which was my main issue with the theory.


Upon more thought though, it really doesn't make any sense at all for the Apprentices to have become Emblems. Like Sora, they should have become Purebloods. And if they did, their hearts for sure would not have gone to Xemnas' KH. So why couldn't their hearts have gone to the RoD in wait until their Nobodies had been destroyed? Please correct me if I'm mistaken about that but Sora becoming an Pureblood in itself is pretty good evidence that the Apprentices would have also become them as their Nobodies were created in a similar fashion.

Well, like I was saying to Sephiroth earlier, one instance isn't good enough to make broad assumptions.
We really don't even know the circumstances of how the apprentices became Heartless (likely very different from Sora). And we still don't even know what differentiates between how a Pureblood and an Emblem are born. So there's no saying what kind of Heartless they could have become.

On that note, I've always wanted this thing to be the machine that converted the apprentices' hearts into Heartless:
Picture25.png


It fits perfectly. We were never given any explanation for what the hell it was--but there just happened to be five pods.

And as for what differentiates the birth between a Pureblood and an Emblem, the theory I took to a while ago, was that the darkness attacks from the inside for Purebloods but attacks from the outside for Emblems, which would account for how Purebloods have no hearts released. When the darkness attacks from the inside (eg using someone's own personal darkness against them until it overwhelms them), it eats the heart from the inside out until nothing is left. When the darkness attacks from the outside, though, it eats the heart whole. So it's almost as if the heart is literally sitting in the Heartless' "stomach" (just... not digesting lol).

So that would actually make sense in Sora's case. He uses the KoPH on himself, which, as it did with Maleficent, would amplify and unleash his own inner darkness. That would flush out Kairi's heart (since it's made of light) and destroy his heart from the inside out. Yet because his darkness was weak, it only produced a shadow.

It's not the strongest explanation but it's one I've always liked, anyway.
 

Reagan Rayden

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The first cutscene in DDD takes place nine years in the past, not after Coded.

Oh, that's right, I forgot at the end of that cutscene Xehanort says his name is Ansem. I guess that wouldn't make sense for him to say that in current time.


The only thing which we are discussing here seems to be about the nature of the apprentices Heartless, and frankly, they cannot have been Purebloods in order for the issue to work, their Heartless need to be Emblems.

I feel like Xehanort would have purposely set it up for them all to become purebloods to have them become Nobodies for his plan to fill empty husks with his heart.

He probably did the same thing he did to Braig (stabbing his heart with his keyblade) to the other apprentices. Either that or there could have been other things he did to ensure they become Nobodies.
 

Nayru's Love

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Braig could have also just walked in the room. It's hard to say for certain what exactly happened in that scene since it's mostly insinuated but I'm pretty confident that AX attacked them all with his keyblade. Hopefully KH3 will be able to clear it up in the reports so there's no room for confusion.
I find it odd for Xehanort to summon his keyblade, release Even's and Ienzo's hearts, "un-summon" it, and then summon it again. Judging by how Even and Ienzo were disappearing, the time gap between their heart releases and Braig's heart release couldn't have been that long. That, and it's possible that their deaths were Braig's doing.

As for Braig, there's more room for speculation because he's a confirmed SoD (as well as the only person I consider confirmed to have had his heart released via keyblade). For all we know, Xehanort could have released his heart and had it sent to the RoD.

I actually like the idea of the Emblems being branded with the Mark of Heresy. Basically suggests that all of those Heartless were the results of his experiments to see which among those test subjects could endure his darkness (and produce a worthy vessel). Though at the same time I wouldn't go so far as to suggest he split his heart thousands, maybe even millions of times to try and shove it in them lol.
Then again, Sora had the Mark of Heresy without having a heart fragment within him.

Rather, the Emblem Heartless may have had some sort of influence by Xehanort, or at least enough to where he could prevent them from going into suspended animation and herd them into the Artificial KH.
 
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Sephiroth0812

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Thanks for the explanation sephiroth. Not a big fan of the organization are you?

No issue. ;)
Not really, but what bothers me more is some people often overlooking the actual crap the Organisation was pulling by abducting countless hearts and messing up the worlds because they're too head over heels in giving them sympathy.
Yes, they aren't complete monsters like Xehanort, that's a no-brainer, but they're in no way as sympathetic as some fans make them out to be, especially not when compared to suffering characters who actually did nothing wrong at all.
Obvious exceptions are of course Roxas and Xion, they were just used as tools all the time and stand on the same level as the BBS-Trio regarding actual deserving pity and empathy.

Yeah, that's what I take issue with because until we know of some alternate means of the Emblems spreading, then your idea would suggest there's a finite number, which appears not to be the case.
I actually like the idea of the Emblems being branded with the Mark of Heresy. Basically suggests that all of those Heartless were the results of his experiments to see which among those test subjects could endure his darkness (and produce a worthy vessel). Though at the same time I wouldn't go so far as to suggest he split his heart thousands, maybe even millions of times to try and shove it in them lol.
I always thought that the Emblems can multiply just like the Purebloods can, only by capturing the hearts and turning them into a new Emblem instead of consuming it like Purebloods do.

That fits, as this bit from Xemnas
Xemnas said:
Our experiments creating Heartless were attempts to control the mind, and
convince it to renounce its sense of self.

suggests that they were deliberately working towards people losing their own sense of self, and therefore the heart. Xehanort and Xemnas were looking into a way to "produce" vessels, as both ways would work to Xehanort's advantage:
If the heart in question is strong enough to endure, but can be influenced by the darkness, Xehanort could infect the original person, if it isn't the heart is lost and a Nobody may be born, which Xehanort can also try to infect.

Considering how long he prepared in both the original Organisation's case and Sora's case in DDD I tend to assume that Xehanort only plants a heart seed if he really sees some odds for success, so he won't assign a heart piece to every experiment he tries out.


Well, like I was saying to Sephiroth earlier, one instance isn't good enough to make broad assumptions.
We really don't even know the circumstances of how the apprentices became Heartless (likely very different from Sora). And we still don't even know what differentiates between how a Pureblood and an Emblem are born. So there's no saying what kind of Heartless they could have become.

On that note, I've always wanted this thing to be the machine that converted the apprentices' hearts into Heartless:
Picture25.png


It fits perfectly. We were never given any explanation for what the hell it was--but there just happened to be five pods.
It's the only indicator we have so far on the topic of how Emblems multiply though-
True, they only thing we do know is that they lost their hearts in an experiment and that they were (arguably) willingly tossing their hearts away FOR SCIENCE, lol.
It is of course only a chain of interpretation, as them being Emblems would fit several points neatly together:

1. Them being revived at the same time suggests their hearts were released at the same time, hinting at the artificial KH.
2. The Emblems were results of Apprentice Xehanort's experiments, the apprentices took part in those experiments
3. Purebloods don't release hearts, so if they were Purebloods and Sora/Roxas/Mickey/Riku didn't coincidentally slew all their Heartless at the same time, why did they come back all at the same time despite their Nobodies being offed with several months of gap between them?


And as for what differentiates the birth between a Pureblood and an Emblem, the theory I took to a while ago, was that the darkness attacks from the inside for Purebloods but attacks from the outside for Emblems, which would account for how Purebloods have no hearts released. When the darkness attacks from the inside (eg using someone's own personal darkness against them until it overwhelms them), it eats the heart from the inside out until nothing is left. When the darkness attacks from the outside, though, it eats the heart whole. So it's almost as if the heart is literally sitting in the Heartless' "stomach" (just... not digesting lol).

So that would actually make sense in Sora's case. He uses the KoPH on himself, which, as it did with Maleficent, would amplify and unleash his own inner darkness. That would flush out Kairi's heart (since it's made of light) and destroy his heart from the inside out. Yet because his darkness was weak, it only produced a shadow.

It's not the strongest explanation but it's one I've always liked, anyway.

I think this explanation is actually pretty good, the only piece missing is how the heart the Emblem "eats" would result in another Emblem being born since that's the indicaton how the Emblems multiply.

Oh, that's right, I forgot at the end of that cutscene Xehanort says his name is Ansem. I guess that wouldn't make sense for him to say that in current time.


I feel like Xehanort would have purposely set it up for them all to become purebloods to have them become Nobodies for his plan to fill empty husks with his heart.

He probably did the same thing he did to Braig (stabbing his heart with his keyblade) to the other apprentices. Either that or there could have been other things he did to ensure they become Nobodies.

Exactly.

I don't think the type of Heartless is important on the matter if a Nobody is born or not, that hinges solely on how strong the heart that is lost was.


I find it odd for Xehanort to summon his keyblade, release Even's and Ienzo's hearts, "un-summon" it, and then summon it again. Judging by how Even and Ienzo were disappearing, the time gap between their heart releases and Braig's heart release couldn't have been that long. That, and it's possible that their deaths were Braig's doing.

As for Braig, there's more room for speculation because he's a confirmed SoD (as well as the only person I consider confirmed to have had his heart released via keyblade). For all we know, Xehanort could have released his heart and had it sent to the RoD.


Then again, Sora had the Mark of Heresy without having a heart fragment within him.

Rather, the Emblem Heartless may have had some sort of influence by Xehanort, or at least enough to where he could prevent them from going into suspended animation and herd them into the Artificial KH.

Correct, that doesn't add up except if Xehanort is such a poser that he wanted to deliberately show off towards Braig and put his Keyblade away for a "wham effect".
Judging by Braig's reaction though it comes over to me more like they were in the middle of one of their experiments (Braig was also standing at the computer with his hands on the keyboard) and what happens to Even and Ienzo is a result of that.
Braig seems to be a tad surprised by the outcome, he turns around, sees Even and Ienzo fading and then turns towards Apprentice Xehanort, who was most likely standing aside overseeing the experiment, asking: "Is this how you wanted it? Xehanort, wanna fill me in?"
Going by this Braig apparently does not know the full extent of what Xehanort actually wants to accomplish with the experiments, but then there's of course the question why does Xehanort attack him if everything goes according to plan?
Braig already had the golden eyes and pointed ears, he's a willing vessel for Xehanort (and probably the only one he has, depending on what Isa's real stance is), so why go the extra mile and extract Braig's heart (which should already have a Xehanort seed since BBS)?

The mark of heresy I assume is more like a symbol which Xehanort uses to mark potential candidates, not those he already has infected.

That's a rather interesting thought, as I believe we never got clarification on how Xemnas was able to direct the released hearts from slain Emblems together and force them to eventually form a KH.
 

Zettaflare

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No issue. ;)
Not really, but what bothers me more is some people often overlooking the actual crap the Organisation was pulling by abducting countless hearts and messing up the worlds because they're too head over heels in giving them sympathy.
Yes, they aren't complete monsters like Xehanort, that's a no-brainer, but they're in no way as sympathetic as some fans make them out to be, especially not when compared to suffering characters who actually did nothing wrong at all.
Obvious exceptions are of course Roxas and Xion, they were just used as tools all the time and stand on the same level as the BBS-Trio regarding actual deserving pity and empathy.


I always thought that the Emblems can multiply just like the Purebloods can, only by capturing the hearts and turning them into a new Emblem instead of consuming it like Purebloods do.

That fits, as this bit from Xemnas


suggests that they were deliberately working towards people losing their own sense of self, and therefore the heart. Xehanort and Xemnas were looking into a way to "produce" vessels, as both ways would work to Xehanort's advantage:
If the heart in question is strong enough to endure, but can be influenced by the darkness, Xehanort could infect the original person, if it isn't the heart is lost and a Nobody may be born, which Xehanort can also try to infect.

Considering how long he prepared in both the original Organisation's case and Sora's case in DDD I tend to assume that Xehanort only plants a heart seed if he really sees some odds for success, so he won't assign a heart piece to every experiment he tries out.



It's the only indicator we have so far on the topic of how Emblems multiply though-
True, they only thing we do know is that they lost their hearts in an experiment and that they were (arguably) willingly tossing their hearts away FOR SCIENCE, lol.
It is of course only a chain of interpretation, as them being Emblems would fit several points neatly together:

1. Them being revived at the same time suggests their hearts were released at the same time, hinting at the artificial KH.
2. The Emblems were results of Apprentice Xehanort's experiments, the apprentices took part in those experiments
3. Purebloods don't release hearts, so if they were Purebloods and Sora/Roxas/Mickey/Riku didn't coincidentally slew all their Heartless at the same time, why did they come back all at the same time despite their Nobodies being offed with several months of gap between them?




I think this explanation is actually pretty good, the only piece missing is how the heart the Emblem "eats" would result in another Emblem being born since that's the indicaton how the Emblems multiply.



Exactly.

I don't think the type of Heartless is important on the matter if a Nobody is born or not, that hinges solely on how strong the heart that is lost was.




Correct, that doesn't add up except if Xehanort is such a poser that he wanted to deliberately show off towards Braig and put his Keyblade away for a "wham effect".
Judging by Braig's reaction though it comes over to me more like they were in the middle of one of their experiments (Braig was also standing at the computer with his hands on the keyboard) and what happens to Even and Ienzo is a result of that.
Braig seems to be a tad surprised by the outcome, he turns around, sees Even and Ienzo fading and then turns towards Apprentice Xehanort, who was most likely standing aside overseeing the experiment, asking: "Is this how you wanted it? Xehanort, wanna fill me in?"
Going by this Braig apparently does not know the full extent of what Xehanort actually wants to accomplish with the experiments, but then there's of course the question why does Xehanort attack him if everything goes according to plan?
Braig already had the golden eyes and pointed ears, he's a willing vessel for Xehanort (and probably the only one he has, depending on what Isa's real stance is), so why go the extra mile and extract Braig's heart (which should already have a Xehanort seed since BBS)?

The mark of heresy I assume is more like a symbol which Xehanort uses to mark potential candidates, not those he already has infected.

That's a rather interesting thought, as I believe we never got clarification on how Xemnas was able to direct the released hearts from slain Emblems together and force them to eventually form a KH.
I thought that the revelation in kh ddd painted them in a really tragic light. We and they originally thought that they had no emotions and were only faking. But in the series, they each had their own unique and memorable personalities. In spite of their horrid actions i still sympathized with them. They just wanted to be complete, but went to despicable means to achieve that. So when it was revealed that their emotions were geniune and xemnas was leading them to a fate worst than death made me feel for them even more. But thats just me, i wont say your wrong in how you feel about the organization
 
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