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Dark Road ► Thoughts on How Disney Worlds Will Even Work (RE:MIND Spoilers Warning)



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Face My Fears

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Bingo.



I think the community would blow a gasket if we have to return to Agrabah just to do another retread of the first movie xD
It doesn't have to be a retread of the film's plot. Maleficent or someone can bring back Jafar because they need his powers as a sorcerer. Instead of turning into a genie, he turns into a snake for the last battle. I don't get why revisiting Agrabah means redoing a film plot. I actually hope for an original plot in Agrabah some day since I think it would be a great world to revisit given KH3's capabilities.
 

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I think an Up world could work well here. Xehanort could meet a young Carl, Ellie, and Charles Muntz, and he could learn that heroes sometimes aren’t all they’re cracked up to be.
 

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It doesn't have to be a retread of the film's plot. Maleficent or someone can bring back Jafar because they need his powers as a sorcerer. Instead of turning into a genie, he turns into a snake for the last battle. I don't get why revisiting Agrabah means redoing a film plot. I actually hope for an original plot in Agrabah some day since I think it would be a great world to revisit given KH3's capabilities.
Because if we have to go back to Agrabah, everyone would rather have King of Thieves, not a revived Jafar.
 

Face My Fears

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Because if we have to go back to Agrabah, everyone would rather have King of Thieves, not a revived Jafar.
I think that's debatable. I never saw King of Thieves and really don't care to because in my eyes the villain of Aladdin is Jafar. Even if it's an original story with Jafar revived somehow, that would be way more memorable than whatever King of Thieves can offer. I'm not saying that as an insult to King of Thieves, I'm saying it more so because casuals that play Kingdom Hearts probably don't even know King of Thieves (or Return of Jafar) exist. A lot of Disney fans haven't even watched Return of Jafar or King of Thieves and don't care for the straight to VHS sequels.

Basically my point is that worlds with iconic villains like Agrabah, Atlantica, Pride Lands etc. if they ever return will need to incorporate the iconic villain in some capacity otherwise there really is no point of going back. Why would any casual want to revisit one of those worlds and fight Morgana, Zira, and whoever the villain is in Aladdin 3 over Ursula, Scar, and Jafar? If we were to go back to those worlds, I would rather a Final Fantasy/original character/revived iconic Disney villain used as the boss with an original story over a straight to VHS villain/giant heartless.
 

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Even if it's an original story with Jafar revived somehow, that would be way more memorable than whatever King of Thieves can offer.
How would you know that Jafar revived again would be a more memorable storyline if you haven’t seen King of Thieves?
 

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I think that's debatable. I never saw King of Thieves and really don't care to because in my eyes the villain of Aladdin is Jafar. Even if it's an original story with Jafar revived somehow, that would be way more memorable than whatever King of Thieves can offer. I'm not saying that as an insult to King of Thieves, I'm saying it more so because casuals that play Kingdom Hearts probably don't even know King of Thieves (or Return of Jafar) exist. A lot of Disney fans haven't even watched Return of Jafar or King of Thieves and don't care for the straight to VHS sequels.

Basically my point is that worlds with iconic villains like Agrabah, Atlantica, Pride Lands etc. if they ever return will need to incorporate the iconic villain in some capacity otherwise there really is no point of going back. Why would any casual want to revisit one of those worlds and fight Morgana, Zira, and whoever the villain is in Aladdin 3 over Ursula, Scar, and Jafar? If we were to go back to those worlds, I would rather a Final Fantasy/original character/revived iconic Disney villain used as the boss with an original story over a straight to VHS villain/giant heartless.

I can't even remember King of Thieves for the most part, but the the one thing which stuck with me tells me, that this story would fit very well in a KH game, because of it's topic. Greed was Jafars motivation aswell, but his greed was for power. But greed for luxury we only had with Barbossa in KH2 I think and that is the main topic of the King of Thieves villain.
Spoiler Spoiler Show


And Jafar... please no. He was never a villain, both in the movies or in the KH games, who stuck with me. He may be iconic, but he and other Disney villains shouldn't be brought back just for the sake of it. For an original story like for Malefiz, okay, but please not just in order to slap a known face into the game. Except if we speaking about Hades, because he rules. Hades is always good for me, although the controversy about his VA left a sour taste behind.

And in order to make the post not completly off-topic... How about letting Xehanort unconsciously setting up the Disney villains? I doubt Disney would allow to do this, but if Xehanort would as example discover the cave (forgot the name) in Agrabah without noticing that a younger Jafar is spying on him, so we get an explanation about how he knew where the lamp was to find (not sure if that was ever explained in the movies)?
 

Face My Fears

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How would you know that Jafar revived again would be a more memorable storyline if you haven’t seen King of Thieves?
Because people are obsessed with nostalgia. Jafar is nostalgic, King of Thieves is not. Anything with Jafar will inevitably be more memorable than anything related to King of Thieves in an already obscure video game which has its own nostalgia with Jafar.

If King of Thieves could have been more memorable, why wasn't that the subject of the Disney's recent Aladdin remake? I don't have hard facts or polls or anything to back up what I'm saying, but I'm pretty sure that if someone did the research into Agrabah returning in KH IV and whether KH fans would prefer Jafar returning as a boss fight (Snake Jafar) or a King of Thieves villain boss fight, I'm sure it would lean WAY towards Jafar returning.
 

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I think that's debatable. I never saw King of Thieves and really don't care to because in my eyes the villain of Aladdin is Jafar. Even if it's an original story with Jafar revived somehow, that would be way more memorable than whatever King of Thieves can offer. I'm not saying that as an insult to King of Thieves, I'm saying it more so because casuals that play Kingdom Hearts probably don't even know King of Thieves (or Return of Jafar) exist. A lot of Disney fans haven't even watched Return of Jafar or King of Thieves and don't care for the straight to VHS sequels.
& here I'm sitting, thinking to myself: "Gee, Mozenrath from the tv series would be awesome to have in KH!" Mozenrath was the originally intended villain for Aladdin 3, wish they stuck with that plan.

The way I see it, there's Disney Plus now, the King of Thieves is right there for anyone to catch up on at anytime. It is to Disney benefit for the KH series to motivate players to watch more D+ content. KH has already had a direct-to-video world in the form of the Three Musketeers (show of hands, has anyone even heard of that one before it was revealed for DDD?), & The Caribbean had Davy Jones as an example of a sequel villain that wasn't around the 1st time we went to a world. Basically there's nothing to inherently oppose KoT from happening.

Furthermore, this shouldn't need to be pointed out but....King of Thieves doesn't rule out a Jafar return! As long as the KH series is ever ongoing, there's always the chance of Agrabah making yet another appearance, KoT isn't the end of the line. They can do both. Heck, this is even true in the actual film continuity, an episode of the Hercules tv series had an Aladdin crossover with Hades reviving Jafar & it appeared to be set after the 3rd film:


(This ironically makes the show MORE canon to Aladdin than to its own film)

If King of Thieves could have been more memorable, why wasn't that the subject of the Disney's recent Aladdin remake? I don't have hard facts or polls or anything to back up what I'm saying, but I'm pretty sure that if someone did the research into Agrabah returning in KH IV and whether KH fans would prefer Jafar returning as a boss fight (Snake Jafar) or a King of Thieves villain boss fight, I'm sure it would lean WAY towards Jafar returning.
Jesus, what? Why didn't the 3rd film in a series get a remake? That a serious question?

Ok, how about this, KoT is worth putting in because it has a freaking Turtle/island/castle thing:

Ff-002.jpg


Does Jafar's revival come with a giant turtle/island/castle/dungeon with a bunch of puzzles & shit? No, I don't think it would. Nah, we'd be going to the Cave of Wonders for the umpteenth time.
 
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disney233

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Because people are obsessed with nostalgia. Jafar is nostalgic, King of Thieves is not. Anything with Jafar will inevitably be more memorable than anything related to King of Thieves in an already obscure video game which has its own nostalgia with Jafar.
There's a difference between nostalgia and repetition. The organization is something that I'd let slide because KH3 has shown they movesets to be both iconic and original.
Spoiler Spoiler Show

You won't find that after our fourth or fifth battle with Genie Jafar....at all. It's one thing to bring back Disney villains because they have potential. Hades and Jafar teaming up just like in the Herc tv show? I'd honestly like that. Maybe they have the potential to not only mess around with SDG, but to traverse to the other worlds in search of something of their own desire.

It's another thing to bring back a Disney villain so they can just be a one-and-done boss fodder like almost every other Disney villain after 2.

You can see my annoyance with Disney villain revival after Ursula who just decides to come back for the lols with so little explanation. twice.
 

Face My Fears

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& here I'm sitting, thinking to myself: "Gee, Mozenrath from the tv series would be awesome to have in KH!" Mozenrath was the originally intended villain for Aladdin 3, wish they stuck with that plan.

The way I see it, there's Disney Plus now, the King of Thieves is right there for anyone to catch up on at anytime. It is to Disney benefit for the KH series to motivate players to watch more D+ content. KH has already had a direct-to-video world in the form of the Three Musketeers (show of hands, has anyone even heard of that one before it was revealed for DDD?), & The Caribbean had Davy Jones as an example of a sequel villain that wasn't around the 1st time we went to a world. Basically there's nothing to inherently oppose KoT from happening.

Furthermore, this shouldn't need to be pointed out but....King of Thieves doesn't rule out a Jafar return! As long as the KH series is ever ongoing, there's always the chance of Agrabah making yet another appearance, KoT isn't the end of the line. They can do both. Heck, this is even true in the actual film continuity, an episode of the Hercules tv series had an Aladdin crossover with Hades reviving Jafar & it appeared to be set after the 3rd film:


(This ironically makes the show MORE canon to Aladdin than to its own film)


Jesus, what? Why didn't the 3rd film in a series get a remake? That a serious question?

Ok, how about this, KoT is worth putting in because it has a freaking Turtle/island/castle thing:

Ff-002.jpg


Does Jafar's revival come with a giant turtle/island/castle/dungeon with a bunch of puzzles & shit? No, I don't think it would. Nah, we'd be going to the Cave of Wonders for the umpteenth time.
Exploring the Cave of Wonders in KH3 graphics/world design would be amazing!

And I meant that if King of Thieves is such an iconic and memorable piece of Disney history that Aladdin and Disney fans are clamouring for, as suggested by the comment that NO ONE wants Jafar to come back and want King of Thieves to happen over "another Jafar return" if we ever visit Agrabah again in a main title game -- Disney should have used a reworked King of Thieves story for the Aladdin live action film. Since King of Thieves is so iconic and whoever the hell the villain is is more iconic than Jafar, then Disney clearly made a mistake in not using it for the basis of the live action film. Oh wait, if they revealed that they were going in a new direction for the Aladdin live action film and basing it on King of Thieves... not as many people would have come out to see it because not as many people care about King of Thieves (or even knows it exists)!

Just because Disney+ exists doesn't mean that people are going to go out of their way to watch King of Thieves -- not only that, but having it on Disney+ doesn't instantly make it as nostalgic as the original Aladdin released in theaters that most people saw as kids. That just will never happen with King of Thieves or any straight to video sequel film.

Country of the Musketeers appeared in 3D -- a handheld spinoff and is a world that incorporates Mickey/Donald/Goofy who are all part of the main story. It's loaded with characters that we're familiar with within the KH story and outside of KH (Mickey, Donald, Goofy, and Pete). KHUX would have been a perfect opportunity to use the King of Thieves villain, but guess what they used Jafar.

To summarize what I'm trying to say in case people think I'm actually opposed to the plot of an Agrabah return being based on King of Thieves: I don't oppose the story being King of Thieves based, my concern is that if we go back to Agrabah the boss fight should be Jafar because he is the iconic villain of that world. If they ever use Agrabah or any past world again, they need to find a way to use that world's villain as the boss fight. You can already see evidence of this being what fans want with the way that people reacted about the lack of a Mother Gothel, Zurg, and Randall fight in KH3. If we're going to those Disney worlds, fans expect a fight with the bad guy from that world. I don't really care what movie the plot of the Disney world comes from (and would actually prefer an original plot that suits the main story), all I care about is getting to fight the (iconic) villains from those films as the boss fight.

There's a difference between nostalgia and repetition. The organization is something that I'd let slide because KH3 has shown they movesets to be both iconic and original.
Spoiler Spoiler Show

You won't find that after our fourth or fifth battle with Genie Jafar....at all. It's one thing to bring back Disney villains because they have potential. Hades and Jafar teaming up just like in the Herc tv show? I'd honestly like that. Maybe they have the potential to not only mess around with SDG, but to traverse to the other worlds in search of something of their own desire.

It's another thing to bring back a Disney villain so they can just be a one-and-done boss fodder like almost every other Disney villain after 2.

You can see my annoyance with Disney villain revival after Ursula who just decides to come back for the lols with so little explanation. twice.
I hope (and kinda expect) Hades to leave Olympus to chase after Sora for ruining his plans. I would like Hades to be his own force outside of Olympus and I would also expect him to team up with Jafar. Possibly they can even feud with Maleficent and Pete, as they feel betrayed by her.

I had no problem with Atlantica returning in KH2 because I love that world, but I do wish they explained how Ursula returned and how Ariel was dumb enough to trust her again... My belief is that because they were underwater, the memories weren't restored properly after the events of CoM and Ariel forgot what happened with Ursula (but remembered Sora).
 

Face My Fears

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Well shit, no one's nostalgic for sequels then I guess. Square better not bother with a KH4 because no one cares about sequels. Just keep selling KH1 over & over.

Also saying that no one's nostalgic for KoT is a bit of an assumption.
I think you missed my point. If they're doing Agrabah again, then the boss fight should be Jafar. They can use whatever story they want, once the boss fight is Jafar. KH will lose its magic if every Disney world we go to ends up not having an iconic Disney villain as the boss fight. We already saw the outrage for KH3 only having 2 Disney boss fights, one of which was just fighting an evil version of your team-mate and was more of a minigame than actual fight.

By all means, do the story of King of Thieves, find a way to fold Jafar in there so he is a boss fight and... there you go. Problem solved. I'm sure if you asked people if they would rather a Snake Jafar boss fight in KH IV or a fight with Sa'Luk (thanks Google), I'm pretty sure it will overwhelmingly be for Snake Jafar.
 

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Exploring the Cave of Wonders in KH3 graphics/world design would be amazing!
It would! And Jafar doesn’t have to be around for us to do so!

And I meant that if King of Thieves is such an iconic and memorable piece of Disney history that Aladdin and Disney fans are clamouring for, as suggested by the comment that NO ONE wants Jafar to come back and want King of Thieves to happen over "another Jafar return" if we ever visit Agrabah again in a main title game
Jafar can come back, but it’s just that having him be the villain in 1, CoM, 2, coded, and X, it’d be nice to have a new, fresh villain.



Disney should have used a reworked King of Thieves story for the Aladdin live action film. Since King of Thieves is so iconic and whoever the hell the villain is is more iconic than Jafar, then Disney clearly made a mistake in not using it for the basis of the live action film. Oh wait, if they revealed that they were going in a new direction for the Aladdin live action film and basing it on King of Thieves...
The purpose of the remakes is to take the original, first film featuring these characters and remake it. It comes down to the people up top whether it incorporates elements from sequels and other media. Beauty and the Beast’s remake proved this when it used elements from the christmas special.

not as many people would have come out to see it because not as many people care about King of Thieves (or even knows it exists)!
This doesn’t invalidate it from being a movie that people grew up watching. Aladdin was VERY popular and this movie came out four years after the first film. While Disney wouldn’t disclose sales numbers, it apparently sold more than The Return of Jafar:

‘King’ of Sales?: In its second week in release, Walt Disney Home Video’s “Aladdin and the King of Thieves,” featuring the voice of Robin Williams, has hit No. 1 on the Billboard video sales chart. Disney is spending $70 million to market the second made-for-video sequel to 1992’s “Aladdin.” Though “King of Thieves” is reportedly outselling the 1994 “Aladdin” sequel, “The Return of Jafar,” which sold 10 million copies, Disney has so far declined to disclose actual sales figures for the new release.

And went on to sell over 10.3 million copies in 1996.

You don’t have any attachment to the King of Thieves, and guess what? I don’t either because it wasn’t a part of my childhood as I never watched it until a couple of years ago, but that doesn’t discount that the film was a part of people’s childhoods and it being a fresh look at Aladdin in Kingdom Hearts with unique locations and characters is valid.

Your initial argument is still flawed though because you’re saying all of this stuff without having watched the film so you don’t understand the appeal that people who have seen the film can see.

I think you missed my point. If they're doing Agrabah again, then the boss fight should be Jafar. They can use whatever story they want, once the boss fight is Jafar. KH will lose its magic if every Disney world we go to ends up not having an iconic Disney villain as the boss fight. We already saw the outrage for KH3 only having 2 Disney boss fights, one of which was just fighting an evil version of your team-mate and was more of a minigame than actual fight.

By all means, do the story of King of Thieves, find a way to fold Jafar in there so he is a boss fight and... there you go. Problem solved. I'm sure if you asked people if they would rather a Snake Jafar boss fight in KH IV or a fight with Sa'Luk (thanks Google), I'm pretty sure it will overwhelmingly be for Snake Jafar.
If they do King of Thieves then Jafar should not be anywhere near that. They shouldn’t be beholden to shoehorn in a boss battle with the first villain from the series just because. That’s like saying that the Pirates of the Caribbean world should have had us fight Barbossa instead of Davy Jones at the end.
 

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I think you missed my point. If they're doing Agrabah again, then the boss fight should be Jafar. They can use whatever story they want, once the boss fight is Jafar. KH will lose its magic if every Disney world we go to ends up not having an iconic Disney villain as the boss fight. We already saw the outrage for KH3 only having 2 Disney boss fights, one of which was just fighting an evil version of your team-mate and was more of a minigame than actual fight.

By all means, do the story of King of Thieves, find a way to fold Jafar in there so he is a boss fight and... there you go. Problem solved. I'm sure if you asked people if they would rather a Snake Jafar boss fight in KH IV or a fight with Sa'Luk (thanks Google), I'm pretty sure it will overwhelmingly be for Snake Jafar.
OK dude, just watch the damn movie already. To be spending this much time & energy shooting down a Disney film you've never even seen before should only be permitted for Song of the South. D+ has a free 7-day trial. I've been watching it as we speak. It's called research.

For the record, Jafar would be hella awkward to wedge into KoT's plot. There's a few parts where even Sora would be tricky to fit in. Jafar would require an external force to revive him (something none of the 40 thieves can do), & then he needs to become involved in a scheme to steal the Hand of Midas, which he probably wouldn't even want (as he cares for power more than wealth). There would be Jafar, Sa'Luk, & whoever brought Jafar back as co-antagonists of the world. Which is just too many.
 
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Tobi

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Because people are obsessed with nostalgia.
A portion, but not all.
KH has already had a direct-to-video world in the form of the Three Musketeers (show of hands, has anyone even heard of that one before it was revealed for DDD?)
Heard yes, watched, not sure. There were a bunch of 'implement trio in setting x' movies back then.
They can use whatever story they want, once the boss fight is Jafar.
No... That doesn't work this way. Just making a story and slapping a known face at the end is way to vague and would be way to risky for a lower level of quality. Not even mentioning the fact that it would be repitive to see these villains come back each damn time we visit a certain world and on top of that, just in order to be defeated at the end of the world story. I can just speak for myself here, but I would hate that. The Malefiz approach is way better.

Have the villain be there, but not force a fight if they don't have to. This suprised me in KH2, but it did a lot for her build up in my opinion. Have something like this for the iconic faces, but don't let them fill every time the spot a new face could have use of.
 

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& it's just Chi worlds again -_- Well pack it up boys, we're done here.
And this proves ladies and gentlemen, that even both Square AND Disney DOES NOT KNOW how to make Disney worlds work in this game. So they just copy the worlds already in Chi!

NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW!!!
hqdefault.jpg
 

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If Disney world visits are like Roxas' covert missions in 358/2 Days then I'd be alright with that. It'd be different enough from the usual "Disney world rehash story".

And this proves ladies and gentlemen, that even both Square AND Disney DOES NOT KNOW how to make Disney worlds work in this game. So they just copy the worlds already in Chi!

NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW!!!
View attachment 12269

Or maybe they stuck with the same Disney worlds from X because it's cost-effective and the Disney worlds themselves don't even matter for the story of Dark Road? this isn't the only Kingdom Hearts game that's being developed post-Xehanort saga.
 

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If Disney world visits are like Roxas' covert missions in 358/2 Days then I'd be alright with that. It'd be different enough from the usual "Disney world rehash story".
That was truly a underrated take on Disney Worlds that I wish got more love then they get, even from the Days fanbase lol.

As much as I don't want rehash stories from the Disney Worlds a part of me kinda does only because it's Xehanort going through them. I mean who wouldn't want to see merman Xehanort with his buff body swimming with Ariel and singing about finny fun? Or Xehanort saving Christmas from Oogie Boogie? How about Xehanort freeing the Genie? Xehanort flying with Peter Pan in Neverland? They might be rehashes but the images of Xehanort doing all these Disney things is almost too good to pass up lol.
 
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