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[THEORY] Lea-Isa Resolution



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Ballad of Caius

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Hey. It's me again. Been replaying KH2FM and it has got me thinking.

On the scene that plays between Xemnas and Saix right after Sora unlocks the Keyhole in Twilight Town, right after Saix reports to Xemnas that he finished his assignment about seeding Sora with doubt, he turns his head down and immediately talks about Axel to Xemnas. It got me thinking about the resolution between Lea and Isa. We know that Isa has been Norted, so he's still Saix, but how will their relationship end?

I'm thinking that Saix always held the steem he had for Lea ever since he turned into a Nobody, but his lust for power, be it from himself or that part of Xehanort inside of him, influenced him in the long run, and made him forgot the emotions that made him.

My theory here is that perhaps, in the end, Saix will survive the final fight and will return to being Lea's friend, Isa.
 

Zettaflare

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I could see him either surviving or dying at the end of KH3. He seems like the kind of character who would meet a tragic end.

If he lives I wonder if Roxas and Xion would forgive him? He was a giant jackass towards both of them
 
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I could see him dying but he and Lea end on a good note.
 

Elysium

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I can see it going either way, really. I could see him having a tragic/bittersweet death scene or being saved along with the RAX, TAV, Namine, etc. I'm pulling for the latter because I really like the character.
 

Alpha Baymax

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I've always found their relationship as friends to be intriguing as they seem to one-up each other in terms of friendly insults. People like that are usually the closest friends. If there's anything that I want to take away from Lea, I want to know his friendship with Isa better.
 

Ballad of Caius

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I think a sort of "middle" situation would be that a Nort is about to land a fatal blow on Lea, Saix notices this, his mind returns to Isa, and sacrifices himself in order for Lea to survive.
 

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As much as I would love to get them back as the friends they were in BBS because they seemed to be really close, I fear they might hold this back to make RAX happen. Saix was really shitty towards them and even though those goody-goodies might forgive him, he wouldn't fit into the trio and since KH is always putting so much emphasis on the trio dynamics, I'm not sure they'll handle this appropriately. My worst fear is that they let him die or vanish or something like that. Re-watching the DDD scene at the end where Riku's eyes follow Young Xehanort and Lea watches Isa go, I try to cling on the hope it was supposed to set those specific conflicts up. I'd love for Isa to give Lea a grumpy apology, they return to be friends again and Isa goes into having some kind of job somewhere where he is allowed to order people around. That would really make me smile.
 

Sephiroth0812

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It's not just Roxas and Xion Saix treated like shit, he also actively tried to kill Axel in the later part of KH 2 for going against the Organisation.

Not to mention that he used the memory of their former friendship to try and coerce/blackmail/guilt-trip him into doing shady things even after Axel made it clear he doesn't intend to betray his other friends for him.

I'd say that it is close to completely impossible to go back to exactly how things were in BBS between them as too much happened for that to be really believable.
 

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It's not just Roxas and Xion Saix treated like shit, he also actively tried to kill Axel in the later part of KH 2 for going against the Organisation.

Not to mention that he used the memory of their former friendship to try and coerce/blackmail/guilt-trip him into doing shady things even after Axel made it clear he doesn't intend to betray his other friends for him.

I'd say that it is close to completely impossible to go back to exactly how things were in BBS between them as too much happened for that to be really believable.

Well, it depends on how much of all that was the Nort seed and how much Saix himself which is probably hard to distinguish. I really don't want to take Saix out of the blame, but friendships in this series are not exactly portrayed in a healthy way for those involved. Even though I like Terra I have to say he was pretty much a dick to Aqua through the course of the game - "you're such a girl, hahaha", not being able to be happy for her instead moping about his own darkness when she achieves the dream they both share, being shitty to her when she confronts him and ultimately nearly killing her after being possessed. Aqua is also partly to blame for this, but their relationship is not really looking good and I'm still pretty convinced we'll see some kind of good ending on this part.
I didn't mean to say Isa and Lea have to be friends again right away but it'd find it to be pretty unsatisfying to build up the highs and lows in their relationship just to rub it into our faces how Lea kills Isa off for good. And Axel's perfomance wasn't exactly one of a nice guy by itself in Re:Com, he didn't look very remorseful about killing Vexen and communication was never his strongest skill. He later states he did all that for Saix and their plan (without Saix specifically telling him to), but there's a difference between doing something because you have to and being remorseful about it or doing something because it gives you a benefit without showing many signs of remose. Still, I get your point - maybe all of this is just wishful thinking on my side.
 

Alpha Baymax

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It's not just Roxas and Xion Saix treated like shit, he also actively tried to kill Axel in the later part of KH 2 for going against the Organisation.

Not to mention that he used the memory of their former friendship to try and coerce/blackmail/guilt-trip him into doing shady things even after Axel made it clear he doesn't intend to betray his other friends for him.

I'd say that it is close to completely impossible to go back to exactly how things were in BBS between them as too much happened for that to be really believable.

Axel killed Zexion through Replica Riku though, and yet here we are with Ienzo and Lea being all buddy buddy.
 

Ballad of Caius

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I mean, Roxas can share friend groups. He has Hayner, Pence and Olette, which doesn't constitute a trio with him, but he can also be with Lea and Xion, which then can turn into a trio. Lea can also share friends like Roxas does. So I don't see a problem with Isa fitting in with Lea "because of trios".
 

shady543

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I mean, Roxas can share friend groups. He has Hayner, Pence and Olette, which doesn't constitute a trio with him, but he can also be with Lea and Xion, which then can turn into a trio. Lea can also share friends like Roxas does. So I don't see a problem with Isa fitting in with Lea "because of trios".

Also the fact that Sora's legit apart of two 'trios' with Donald and Goofy as well as Riku and Kairi currently, and Riku has a close bond with Mickey. Roxas is also close with Namine and the two get shipped teased despite Xion possibly coming back, etc. So there is no reason why Axel can't still be friends with Isa 'cuz trio' reasons. :\
 

Sephiroth0812

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Well, it depends on how much of all that was the Nort seed and how much Saix himself which is probably hard to distinguish. I really don't want to take Saix out of the blame, but friendships in this series are not exactly portrayed in a healthy way for those involved. Even though I like Terra I have to say he was pretty much a dick to Aqua through the course of the game - "you're such a girl, hahaha", not being able to be happy for her instead moping about his own darkness when she achieves the dream they both share, being shitty to her when she confronts him and ultimately nearly killing her after being possessed. Aqua is also partly to blame for this, but their relationship is not really looking good and I'm still pretty convinced we'll see some kind of good ending on this part.
I didn't mean to say Isa and Lea have to be friends again right away but it'd find it to be pretty unsatisfying to build up the highs and lows in their relationship just to rub it into our faces how Lea kills Isa off for good. And Axel's perfomance wasn't exactly one of a nice guy by itself in Re:Com, he didn't look very remorseful about killing Vexen and communication was never his strongest skill. He later states he did all that for Saix and their plan (without Saix specifically telling him to), but there's a difference between doing something because you have to and being remorseful about it or doing something because it gives you a benefit without showing many signs of remose. Still, I get your point - maybe all of this is just wishful thinking on my side.

Exactly, but that is the crucial point to determine in what position he falls on the scale.
Friendships can be severed/destroyed for good if there are only coming toxic things out of it

Terra was never deliberately trying to actively harm Aqua though nor did he try to manipulate her into doing shady things by using their friendship as an excuse/source of blackmail.
Terra's main issue is that he wouldn't get his teeth apart and actually talk about his issues and explain his doings rather than snapping at her which certainly does constitute a flaw in Terra's character, yet it is far from Isa's/Saix's actions in terms of severity.
It is also more than obvious that when Aqua was attacked and nearly killed that those were 100% Xehanort's actions with Terra having no influence about it while with Isa/Saix this isn't clear for any of his actions except the ones in DDD where he appears almost robotic and acting on Xehanort's will alone.
Terra and Aqua may very well get a "good ending" on their part more because while their friendship got somewhat rocky it never deteriorated to a point where it was so broken they actively went against each other of their own free will, neither from his nor from her side.
Even Sora & Riku in KH 1 deteriorated worse than Terra & Aqua, yet that one was resolved mainly because of Riku himself realizing and admitting that what he had done was wrong by himself, something we have seen or heard none on Isa's part so far.
When overlooking the whole original cast of the KH series the only characters I see so far having fulfilled the basic conditions for a redemption arc besides Riku are Lea/Axel and Ansem the Wise, although both admittedly could still use some work.

Highs and lows of their relationship? Refresh my memory about the supposed highs as the only thing I remember are some small snippets/cameos from BBS that are vastly outweighed by everything portrayed in both Days and KH 2?

It's also pretty unlikely that we'll get to see Lea "just killing Isa off for good" as he has clearly shown his intent to at least try to save him if he can and it is certainly true that for a time he was fully on board with Saix' and his own plan, yet that changed when Saix began to involve people Axel didn't want to be involved and became increasingly detached and abrasive, that's even stated word for word in the secret reports of Days.
It is certainly possible for Isa to get a redemption arc down the line, I agree with that notion, but from what we've seen so far there is no build up for it and just flipping a switch at the end of KH III and then him and Lea are the best of friends again would be as bad storytelling as the issues of Ienzo/Lea and Kairi/Lea parts so far already are.

It's an issue of doing things too fast and too little in attention to be truly believable.

---

In general, I certainly get that many people in fandoms have a knack for wanting a redemption arc for almost every remotely sympathetic bad guy (even if those sympathetic traits are highly subjective in some cases) nowadays, but all too often they tend to get only and directly on the expectation of said bad guy being socially accepted by the good guys (even their direct victims) and deserving unconditional forgiveness and support with this being the default outcome all the while forgetting or denying that this isn't what a redemption arc actually is about.
The above outcome is the most positive reward possible but it is not the default nor the core aim of a redemption arc, which actually is for the "bad guy"-character to face the awfulness of what they’ve done, put actual effort into changing and face real consequences for their actions without being entitled to any acceptance from their victims.


Axel killed Zexion through Replica Riku though, and yet here we are with Ienzo and Lea being all buddy buddy.

That's a sort of different pair of shoes though both in-universe and in meta-terms.
In-universe, not only are Lea/Axel and Ienzo/Zexion not former friends like with Isa, there is also the possibility that as one of the leading scientists in the immoral experiments which may have caused Lea to lose his heart the first time Ienzo/Zexion treats these whole events as a "now we're even" or "I was a scumbag to you so you were one to me"-issue and therefore doesn't feel like bringing it up when it could in return lead to his own shit being addressed.

In meta-terms, it was simply an oversight or shitty writing on Dream Drop Distance's part to not address the history between certain characters.
It may even have been deliberate in order to directly focus on "present problems" and not make the in-between-worlds cutscenes of other characters too long but I can't say I would call this coherent storytelling.

There is no need to repeat the same errors with other cases of characters behaving abusive and shitty towards others being swept under the rug and it is legitimate to point out the idiocy of such an approach even if the writers are likely to repeat it. Especially then I'd say.

I mean, Roxas can share friend groups. He has Hayner, Pence and Olette, which doesn't constitute a trio with him, but he can also be with Lea and Xion, which then can turn into a trio. Lea can also share friends like Roxas does. So I don't see a problem with Isa fitting in with Lea "because of trios".

The whole issue with Roxas/Xion & co. isn't really the big problem anyways precisely because multiple friend groups can be and are a thing.
The main issue will be what is up with Isa even after all traces of (possible) Xehanort influence are purged.
If he remains a petty jealous prick about Lea's other friends I doubt that their friendship will last that much longer nor do I believe that it will ever become as close again as it was before all the shit went down.

Also the fact that Sora's legit apart of two 'trios' with Donald and Goofy as well as Riku and Kairi currently, and Riku has a close bond with Mickey. Roxas is also close with Namine and the two get shipped teased despite Xion possibly coming back, etc. So there is no reason why Axel can't still be friends with Isa 'cuz trio' reasons. :\

Like said, the trio issue isn't the problem, but if after everything that happened this "friendship" is even believable enough to be maintained afterwards.
 

Elysium

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Axel killed Zexion through Replica Riku though, and yet here we are with Ienzo and Lea being all buddy buddy.
The thing that bothers me about fandom are these random hoops certain characters have to jump through that are never applied to other characters. Besides Riku and Axel, Terra, DiZ, and Eraqus will likely get redemptions without so much as an eyeblink reaction, but fans will still complain about how mean Saix was to x favorite character. If we apply real-world logic to this series, so many characters deserve to be locked up or executed for causing destruction/mayhem/harm. As far as Axel, he doesn't get a pass for his actions just because "Saix told him to," as if he was brainwashed. If anything, he's more culpable because he developed a heart, something Saix didn't have (if he didn't already have a Nort seed for that matter).

Actually, the only truly irredeemable characters to me are Xigbar, Xehanort, and Vanitas. And they could even manage it with Braig/Young Xehanort with the right plot for all I know.
 

Ballad of Caius

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The thing that bothers me about fandom are these random hoops certain characters have to jump through that are never applied to other characters. Besides Riku and Axel, Terra, DiZ, and Eraqus will likely get redemptions without so much as an eyeblink reaction, but fans will still complain about how mean Saix was to x favorite character. If we apply real-world logic to this series, so many characters deserve to be locked up or executed for causing destruction/mayhem/harm. As far as Axel, he doesn't get a pass for his actions just because "Saix told him to," as if he was brainwashed. If anything, he's more culpable because he developed a heart, something Saix didn't have (if he didn't already have a Nort seed for that matter).

Actually, the only truly irredeemable characters to me are Xigbar, Xehanort, and Vanitas. And they could even manage it with Braig/Young Xehanort with the right plot for all I know.

Like, I have a theory, an ironic one, where even though Nobodies can naturally grow hearts, it would be ironic that Xehanort's seed helped them develop a heart by accelerating the process, thanks to them having part of a heart inside them. This obviously failed because they all developed an independent sense of self, basically eradicating the Xehanort inside of them.

In Saix's case, it's possible he grew a heart, but Xehanort controlling everything.
 

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snip



Like said, the trio issue isn't the problem, but if after everything that happened this "friendship" is even believable enough to be maintained afterwards.

Oh don't get me wrong I actually agree with you lol. I was just stating that Axel not being friends with him cuz trio reasons is kind of wrong because of other characters. I don't think the two should just forgive and be friends again, unless Isa realizes his mistakes. :\
 
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Im fond of Isa dying a noble death but im ok with him seeking redemption for his actions post kh3.
 
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