The treatment of women in this series

[Deleted member]

I feel like you're being kind of disingenuous, insinuating that you don't understand dramatic language well enough to see the throughline between Herc saving Meg from near death and Sora going after Kairi. The story uses a lot of different tangents as stepping stones, but that's the actual culmination of the events that take place.

I see the connection clearly, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that was all that was ever about.

 

[LostArtist]

Just coming in quickly to say from all that I have read in this thread, from the beginning until now, every time Audo comes in to say something, I agree. Audo has really good responses.

 

[alexis.anagram]

I see the connection clearly, but I don't think it's fair to suggest that was all that was ever about.

OK, but the contention is that ultimately the message this game conveys is one of male-coded heroism superseding feminine agency, so your point is no more substantial than the people who argue that "the boys in KH3 job for Sora too!" either because they're being pedantic or they've genuinely missed the boat on media literacy.

 

[Elysium]

I guess I'm saying I think it was the wrong decision to follow the film so closely in that manner. I dunno if it was Roy since he worked on the game with them, or if it was someone on the Square side, but they literally changed the story of the Little Mermaid to keep her a mermaid after her and Eric are already dating just so we can sing crappy mini-games with her lol. But Rapunzel's story can't be shifted to keep her as a party member at least till the end of the world. I knew it was a possibility they would take even before the game came out, so I wasn't surprised but I still think it was avoidable.

I agree, it was easily avoidable. People are so unimaginative when they talk about what can and can't be done. It's a videogame. They can work around almost anything for the sake of gameplay if they choose to.

 

[Nukara]

I call it bullshit. Whenever Sora or anyone else's Keyblades gets knocked from their hands we see them summon them in a beam of light right after. Even if somehow her Keyblade falling into the Dark Ocean made it impossible to get back to her, how comes no one else comes across it until that point? It's just really bad writing on top of bad writing, honestly.



Not really. The manga and novels showed that there are people talented enough to take over him. He already laid enough fondation that anyone can build upon that, honestly.
Nomura himself started as just a designer in Squenix before his work in FF7 landed him the lead designer for FF8 and he slowly rose in ranks until the fated meeting in that elevator landed him his big project in KH.

And show me when exactly was Terra said to be the strongest? Gameplay wise, the BBS trio was built so each is on the same level as the others but focusing on a different aspect (Strenght, Speed and Magic). Although Ven started out weaker than them, by the time the ending fights take place they are definitely on the same level.
Then the two extra routes in BBS AND KH2.8 showed Aqua's achievments and she definitely should be above Terra during KH3.

This may look like I'm being aggressive towards you specifically and if you do interpret it as that then I'm sorry, it's not my intention. But I just wish Aqua was held to the same standart as other Masters in the franchise after all she's gone through.

Spoiler Show

Manga is a rather specific sight, despite the fact that there are some pretty good moments there, such as the character of Kairi and Demyx, which is full of foolish humor that, alas, spoils a lot. I love manga but this sight is purely an amateur. It would be better if Amano would just help Nomura with writing, for me it would be the perfect solution.
I doubt now in the SE there are so competent writers and employees.
Nojima and Kitase as far as I know "Overboard".
Just in my memory, I know what happens when I completely give a franchise to new people, the new 8 epidode Star Wars is quite controversial.
Well, despite the fact that Kairi is again a lady in trouble, this does not mean that in terms of plot, KH3 is bad. The game has a lot of good moments for me despite the flaws.
Well, KH3 is first and foremost a game and even if it has flaws in the plot, the gameplay is still fun, the world is fun to attend, as well as a lot of mechanics do not get bored.
As for Terra, it seems that in the novels it was said that he is the strongest of the trios.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

With the subject of writing, whatever happened to Daisuke Watanabe?

That man was a godsend to the series. If he didn't work on KHIII, then its issues make so much sense.

 

[Master Xehanort]

To be fair, Aqua beat Xehanort and Ventus-Vanitas. I wouldn't say she jobs, there's just stronger characters in the series.

 

[Deleted member]

With the subject of writing, whatever happened to Daisuke Watanabe?

That man was a godsend to the series. If he didn't work on KHIII, then its issues make so much sense.

to make it worse, nomura consulted with nojima on the ending script, the trashfire that wrote kh2

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

to make it worse, nomura consulted with nojima on the ending script, the trashfire that wrote kh2

IS THIS WHY THE ENDING IS THE WAY IT IS. God, I’ve hated literally everything Nojima’s touched in the last decade or so.

MAY WE REMEMBER TIDUS GETTING HIS HEAD BLOWN OFF AND THAT WHOLE TRASH NOVEL

diddlying hell Nomura why would he ask that man and not Watanabe or Kanemaki or get Akiyama on the phone since he’s 90% of why I’m sure KH1 was as solid as it was.

 

[Zul]

I'm amazed anyone would consult him after what happened with FFX-2.5 and its overwhelmingly negative reception.

Also looks like Jun Akiyama was the event planner for WoFF...not sure what "event planner" actually does though.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I'm amazed anyone would consult him after what happened with FFX-2.5 and its overwhelmingly negative reception.

Also looks like Jun Akiyama was the event planner for WoFF...not sure what "event planner" actually does though.

Event planning is structuring the layout of how story events happen, including pacing and what also happens in those story events. Essentially Akiyama makes sure the pacing is good and also that the story beats make sense with how they are structured.

WoFF’s story beats are so *chef kiss* regardless of how one feels about the game’s story. The pacing was always good, and it never felt like the story was dragging on or moving way too fast.

 

[AdrianXXII]

I don't think he's saying his journey started because she went missing, but rather on the day his journey began is when they first started being torn apart.

Yeah I got that impression as well.

Until that fated day they spent the last 10-ish years just hanging out each day and since then they spent more days apart then together.

It's kind of implied that it /is/ Roxas, through Sora. When Sora says her name at the end, it's Roxas' voice.

Wow, guess this is another instance of my VA deafness.

Still would have prefered it, if it were Roxas there himself, but that's more related to me not wanting all the rescues to happen back to back in the last part of the story.

OK, but the contention is that ultimately the message this game conveys is one of male-coded heroism superseding feminine agency, so your point is no more substantial than the people who argue that "the boys in KH3 job for Sora too!" either because they're being pedantic or they've genuinely missed the boat on media literacy.

You're acting like there's only one way to read media. People look at media differently, with different biases and lenses.

The "with all my heart" sentiment was a recurring theme and was something Sora used as a motto for through out.

Sure Sora risking it all for Kairi, does reflect Herc doing the same.
However it also echos Anna's sacrifice to save Elsa, Rapunzel and Flynn putting themselves at risk to safe each other.

The theme of putting yourself at risk to safe a loved one was a recurring theme in the game. Xigbar even comments on it in Olympus.

 

[alexis.anagram]

You're acting like there's only one way to read media. People look at media differently, with different biases and lenses.

Moreso like none of the examples you mentioned have to be discounted in order for the problems with this message's ultimate, endgame framing to persist. The reason Sora (and us, through him) witness all this stuff and get the repetition of "all my heart" as allegory is so that the final act of the game can play out as it does, contingent upon our familiarity with the theme: it's all fruit of the poisonous tree. Kairi kicks the bucket so that Sora can fulfill (by putting into action) the lesson he learned/the power he gained, and that in turn is entirely a means to an ends in setting up his story for the next game in which he appears, where she is already in the process of being sidelined. Good stuff.

 

[Master Xehanort]

Moreso like none of the examples you mentioned have to be discounted in order for the problems with this message's ultimate, endgame framing to persist. The reason Sora (and us, through him) witness all this stuff and get the repetition of "all my heart" as allegory is so that the final act of the game can play out as it does, contingent upon our familiarity with the theme: it's all fruit of the poisonous tree. Kairi kicks the bucket so that Sora can fulfill (by putting into action) the lesson he learned/the power he gained, and that in turn is entirely a means to an ends in setting up his story for the next game in which he appears, where she is already in the process of being sidelined. Good stuff.

But Kairi saves Sora? Without her saving him, everyone would have lost. So it's not like she didn't do anything, she just ended up being the person Sora most cared about, which is why Xehanort had to use her. I don't see what's wrong with her being a part of Sora's lesson.

 

[Divine Past]

But Kairi saves Sora? Without her saving him, everyone would have lost. So it's not like she didn't do anything, she just ended up being the person Sora most cared about, which is why Xehanort had to use her. I don't see what's wrong with her being a part of Sora's lesson.

I mean they could have used Riku in Kairi's role. Kairi's character did not need to be sabotage for such a silly reason that Sora needs to get grouchy/angry again.

 

[alexis.anagram]

But Kairi saves Sora? Without her saving him, everyone would have lost. So it's not like she didn't do anything, she just ended up being the person Sora most cared about, which is why Xehanort had to use her. I don't see what's wrong with her being a part of Sora's lesson.

This only proves my point: Kairi's strength is always written as relational to Sora, and it's his approval and his validation which constitutes the textual quality of Kairi's character. It really doesn't matter whether he's saying, "You make me feel strong," or, "Wow, Kairi, you're really strong," because the assumption is that her powers (and how we are intended to read them) hinge on his inferences rather than her own autonomous will to act: this objectifies her as a source of *something* for Sora, whether it's as his salvation or his crucial weakness, and her role in the story remains permanently proportional to the extent to which Sora needs her as well as what role he needs her to play. It would be one thing if she were at least permitted to fulfill her own single-minded desire to be Sora's light on her own terms, but the near immediate turnaround from *spiritual guide in the space betwixt Heaven and Earth* to *fridged cliffhanger* indicates that this has nothing to do with developing her as a person through her connection to Sora-- this is about manipulating her arc to contrive the contexts that push Sora where he needs to be in order to make the plot move forward. It's transparently awful writing.

 

[Alja]

On the SoKai romance said, it definitely wasn't vague for me. In fact, I liked how it wasn't all up in our faces, thus avoiding people's complaint about them forcing the ship or even just forcing romance in the game, while still being there.

I agree, in hindsight, I love it pretty much. The only problem I saw is once again the pacing. Both Sokai scenes happened in the middle of other hype moments so it's especially hard for that paopu scene to shine among the action scenes and plethora of cutscenes after cutscenes - and the rather bad build up of Sokai in KH3 doesn't help. Could have easily been mended by Sora thinking about Kairi when the story doesn't call for it like he thought of Riku during San Fransokyo - but sadly Nomura thought shifting Sora's focus from Riku in the first part of the game completely to Kairi in the last part would make up for it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I read that in Maleficent's voice and it's perfect.
Even with Sora's "You make me strong, Kairi" being more romantic, I feel it's just...better than the Japanese version. How to put this, like, just saying Kairi is strong doesn't really have any weight to it for me. It's a false statement and nothing else, whereas saying Kairi makes Sora strong still says that she is while also making it more personal.

I'll also say it's possible there could be some classic Japanese vagueness going on that actually does make the Japanese line just as romantic, but it's hard for us to see that through a direct translation, so the English version opted for that to get the same intention across.

I suppose this is ultimately why they went for "I feel strong with you" vs. "You're strong". Kairi already gets so much shit in the fandom, imagine if Sora had said the Japanese line instead. It also ties in nicely with Sora's arc where he feels weak in front of his enemies. Not to mention what other people have already brought up in this thread, that strength is usually equated to fighting power for us while strength of heart/hope/trust gets largely dismissed by the American/International audience. The translation team knows what it's doing.

And I think it's kind of clear that Sora's words are meant to be romantic because of his delighted reaction to her blush. He pretty much flirted with her on purpose, no matter if he or Kairi is supposed to be the strong one.

Pretty sure they do eat it, we just don't see them taking a bite. The mural thing is meant to be them each taking a bite, as when it goes back to them, one of the points on each of their paopus is missing.

In addition to that, you can hear a slight scrunching sound a second before the finished cave drawing flashes back to Sora and Kairi holding the paopus in front of each other.

 

[OneDandelion]

This only proves my point: Kairi's strength is always written as relational to Sora, and it's his approval and his validation which constitutes the textual quality of Kairi's character. It really doesn't matter whether he's saying, "You make me feel strong," or, "Wow, Kairi, you're really strong," because the assumption is that her powers (and how we are intended to read them) hinge on his inferences rather than her own autonomous will to act: this objectifies her as a source of *something* for Sora, whether it's as his salvation or his crucial weakness, and her role in the story remains permanently proportional to the extent to which Sora needs her as well as what role he needs her to play. It would be one thing if she were at least permitted to fulfill her own single-minded desire to be Sora's light on her own terms, but the near immediate turnaround from *spiritual guide in the space betwixt Heaven and Earth* to *fridged cliffhanger* indicates that this has nothing to do with developing her as a person through her connection to Sora-- this is about manipulating her arc to contrive the contexts that push Sora where he needs to be in order to make the plot move forward. It's transparently awful writing.

You say this like its all a problem... but the story is written from Sora's perspective. We aren't told all of Kairi's motivations because they're not relevant to this story, although we are told more than enough to show how much she cares for Sora. She has a few conversations with Sora throughout the game, but for the most part giving her a more prominent role as a fighter and more dialogue wouldn't do a whole lot for this game although I would also have liked to see it. What is relevant is whether or not Kairi has the strength of will to back Sora up when he needs it and she does. That is all that we really need to see as a viewer to show how strong Kairi is.

Her character rises to every occasion presented to her even when she's at risk or isn't able to do a whole lot. That is both the strength and bravery of her character - I don't see why anyone would undermine these good qualities just because she wasn't a strong fighter in the game. In my opinion that is a disgusting way to think about her.

I'm sorry you think she was written bad, but she didn't need to be a particularly well written character in this story.

And of course her role in this story is proportional to how much Sora needs her. That was actually one of the main themes of this story wasn't it? How much Kairi means to Sora? She was a damsel in distress before she even went to the keyblade graveyard because Sora had already resolved to protecting her - he told her as much. And Kairi said the same to him. The fact that the story worked out the way it did was both because its Sora's story, hes the only one who couldve killed Xehanort, and because the story wanted to show how much Sora was willing to do to rescue Kairi in the end. It was all done to show the resolve of Soras character and his love for Kairi - if you go from that to saying this story is bad because it uses a trope almost as old as time itself to progress its story then you are the one at fault here. Your personal bias is not allowing you to see the value in this story.

 

[kirabook]

Today on tumblr, I wrote up a quick "what if" situation that I think is 10 times better than what happened in game.

"If Nomura absolutely NEEDED Kairi to be kidnapped, at least make it interesting??

What if instead of Xehanort just floating Kairi to her death, he has her in a contained area with him (ala Aqua creating a barrier to hold herself and Vanitas) and he forces Kairi to fight, knowing he’d win. Of course Kairi does lose. She wouldn’t be able to win against freakin’ Xehanort. It’s a totally reasonable conclusion and I don’t think anyone would blame her for that.

But you know what? Kairi is a princess of heart. Why not let her deal a substantial blow in exchange for her life, taking Xehanort down a few pegs for the rest of the game???

Why not give her a Sora sacrifice moment? Or a Riku behind the door moment? She’d turn to Sora with a smile like, “I’ve done what I can. You take care of the rest, Sora.” and she disappears into crystal sparkles and Xehanort gets his 13th key for a price.

Sora would still be upset. Everyone would. But you go into the final battle knowing Kairi is the one that gave you an advantage. The crack in Xehanort’s defenses that Sora needed to ultimately win.

Maybe the reason Xehanort was all weird and divided when you first get to Scala ad Caelum is because Kairi jacked him up real good and he got split into pieces? She would’ve basically given you this big opening and Sora + other characters wouldn’t fail to mention it.

Anything is better than what Nomura wrote and I still don’t know why people defend it."

 

[Zettaflare]

Today on tumblr, I wrote up a quick "what if" situation that I think is 10 times better than what happened in game.

"If Nomura absolutely NEEDED Kairi to be kidnapped, at least make it interesting??

What if instead of Xehanort just floating Kairi to her death, he has her in a contained area with him (ala Aqua creating a barrier to hold herself and Vanitas) and he forces Kairi to fight, knowing he’d win. Of course Kairi does lose. She wouldn’t be able to win against freakin’ Xehanort. It’s a totally reasonable conclusion and I don’t think anyone would blame her for that.

But you know what? Kairi is a princess of heart. Why not let her deal a substantial blow in exchange for her life, taking Xehanort down a few pegs for the rest of the game???

Why not give her a Sora sacrifice moment? Or a Riku behind the door moment? She’d turn to Sora with a smile like, “I’ve done what I can. You take care of the rest, Sora.” and she disappears into crystal sparkles and Xehanort gets his 13th key for a price.

Sora would still be upset. Everyone would. But you go into the final battle knowing Kairi is the one that gave you an advantage. The crack in Xehanort’s defenses that Sora needed to ultimately win.

Maybe the reason Xehanort was all weird and divided when you first get to Scala ad Caelum is because Kairi jacked him up real good and he got split into pieces? She would’ve basically given you this big opening and Sora + other characters wouldn’t fail to mention it.

Anything is better than what Nomura wrote and I still don’t know why people defend it."

Yes, I really like your idea. I would have gladly taken Kairi intentionally sacrificing herself over another DID situation. It's such a shame Nomura never thought to take advantage of Kairi's PoH status in terms of combat.