The treatment of women in this series



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Tartarus

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They were holding hands though. I'd say that's as good as confirmation. Do you want them to kiss in KH4, lol?
Yeah, and Sora holds Riku's hand and cries on his knees in KH2, but that's not confirmation of anything either?

I've said before, but the scene seems like he's just returned Kairi to DI before he disappears in the ending. Why wouldn't he have been holding her hand?
 

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Not to be snarky and maybe there should be a ship thread to post in instead, but.... Am I the only one who doesn't get what there is that's so blatant about SoKai in KH3? It doesn't feel like any more or less than what's in KH1 and people have been sweeping that under a rug for years. I say that because I've always been resigned to SoKai happening because of KH1 and people would get angry with me because of it, but even I don't see anything heavily romantic in KH3? Blatant for me would have been Sora kissing Kairi before he vanishes. Most of what is said between Kairi and Sora in KH3 is vague enough that it could've been a converation between Sora and any of his friends.

As for the paopu, it was given romantic symbolism in KH1, imo, but things in KH1 have been undermined for so long to the point that I see the paopu as something representing non-romantic connections, too. The paopu appears as a part of Sora and Riku's shared keyblade in 3D, doesn't it? Sora and Kairi sharing the paopu is about Kairi not wanting to be separated again (almost as a setup for the fact that she is separated from everyone again 30 minutes later).


Interesting. What strange changes.
I always thought the romance was more from Kairi's side than Sora. But 85% of Kairi's conversation include saying Sora so it might standout more. I feel more confident in saying Kairi loves Sora more than the other way around.
 

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I don't really ship SoKai or SoRiku strongly (if anything, it's an OT3), but I do remember feeling a strong sense of dread during the paopu fruit sharing and the flying through the void bits. Maybe I felt the oncoming plot disaster, but the moments felt empty to me. Even during the ending, I sighed seeing them sitting on the tree holding hands instead of playing around with everyone else.

I hate it when romantic ships have to be so.... isolated and cut out from everything going on around them. It feels unnatural and forced I don't care what anyone says. I don't say this as someone who hates the ship or Kairi or prefer another ship. I don't. I just... didn't like any of their moments for some reason. Maybe I would've preferred the Japanese dialogue so that it's not laying it on so thick. Maybe it's the VAing. I just don't know, something is not right. It feels hallow. :/

Whether SoKai is confirmed or not doesn't matter to me. But I will say after completing the game, seeing SoKai stuff come across my dashes and feeds makes me scroll a little faster.
 

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Wait so all the romance stuff with the dialogue was because of translations?
Rather the heavy handed nature of the romance was because of the translations. The scenes are much more subtle in the Japanese version, and are much more in character with how Sora and Kairi would speak to each other. Also the Japanese version puts more emphasis on Kairi’s strength rather than relating it to being Sora’s.
 
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Sora2016

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Rather the heavy handed nature of the romance was because of the translations. The scenes are much more subtle in the Japanese version, and are much more in character with how Sora and Kairi would speak to each other. Also the Japanese puts more emphasis on Kairi’s strength rather than relating it to being Sora’s.
That really bums me out, I wish they had talked more about her strength than just some bait for a mediocre romance lol.
 

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skuld looked like she's not your typical girl that need protecting or maybe i just think that cause she's tomboy in a way
 

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Sooo, I sorta put off going through this whole thread when I first finished the game 2 days ago, but now I finally have. I feel like I already made my feelings on Kairi clear, and how she somehow was worse than I expected.

It did make me see even more of the flaws for poor Aqua as well. Even though I still didn't mind everything, like the parallel between BBS and this game of Ven saving her from Vanitas, she still deserved better. She deserved to not just be forced into darkness and to at least have a more active role in a few other things. It was so weird, I feel like there were 2 scenes that stuck out to me where they seemed like they were gonna let her do something and then didn't lol. That was when her, Sora, and Riku confront the Demon Tide before it becomes a straight up maelstrom, and then at the end when Mickey wants her to be one of the 2 who help him defeat Xehanort. I did like that they at least acknowledged her strength in those moments even though neither worked out clearly. I really keep trying to tell myself they weren't just being crappy when they made her cower in the face of the Heartless, and that it was just PTSD so to speak from the Dark Realm. But idk.

Xion and Namine should have probably gotten a bit more as well. Maybe Xion and Roxas' moments shouldn't have been in the same scene? Cuz I feel like I liked what she did (other than getting kicked over, of course), and obviously Namine was crucial. But it sucks that connection between Namine and Lingering Will was only actually heard at the concerts in Japan. They shoulda just put that in too, and made it not missable.

Also even on the Disney side, Jessie being excluded from Toy Box still sucks, but what extra sucks is Rapunzel being the first party member to just...stop being one. I realize both Pixar and Roy Conli were involved in these worlds so who knows where the fault for both of those things lies but it still makes me upset. Rapunzel especially, it knocked that world down multiple pegs for me.

skuld looked like she's not your typical girl that need protecting or maybe i just think that cause she's tomboy in a way
I mean if she is this girl Lea and Isa are talking about, she will probably unfortunately need protecting/saving. At least at first...
 

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On the SoKai romance said, it definitely wasn't vague for me. In fact, I liked how it wasn't all up in our faces, thus avoiding people's complaint about them forcing the ship or even just forcing romance in the game, while still being there.
When they're travelling the tunnel of light and Sora says he feels strong alongside her and Kairi turns the other way (pity they never figured out how to make the character models blush) and they both smile, Sora remiscing about the scenes in Corona and Arendelle and the "acts of true love" when he and Kairi hold hands, and of course the Paopu scene and the callback to the mural which was just beautiful. My only complaint is that they didn't actually eat it (are you even supposed to? Maybe you only need to "share" one in the literal sense? Lol, what if Paopus are poisonous). Come to think of it, I also liked that in KH1 they talk about sharing A Paopu fruit and here we have two. Given that this seems to be a tradition, I can imagine that if one of the two doesn't share the other one back it's not meant to be.

Then, as ugly as it was, there's the Xehanort business. People have said that Sora would've jumped for anyone and it's definitely true, but emphasis is given to the fact that the victim was Kairi. Sora asks why her in rage and already crying (I think?), and Xehanort gives a knowing smile. Both he and Sora know exactly why it was her. Xehanort is a careful man (except when he has to predict to NOT be shot in the back apparently) and he chose the most effective route.
Sora even breaks continuity by saying everything started when Kairi was missing when it was because of Riku! The power of love, my friends.


So yeah, once again definitely not friendship. Or at very least I don't talk to my friends that way, english translation or not.
And as I said I was happy with it, discreet yet still present, if not for the dumb ending.
 

AdrianXXII

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I dont think Kh3 is sexist. The girls did as much as the boys. Everyone had there moment to shine and there need for saving.

Xion - saves Axel

Aqua - is a good boss and whipethe floor with vanitas till ge cheated.

Naminie - send the Terra-Armor and saves everyone

Kairi - saves sora von fading and show him how to save all the others
Well... I have some issues with these savings.

Xion wasn't quite herself at the time and if Sora (it really should have been Roxas) hadn't stepped in she might have done the job herself.

Aqua did kick his butt, but apparently can't defend against the same attack as she had just minutes before. This moment would have been less of an issue for me, if this wasn't her only near win, that got pulled out from under her right before she actually achieved it.

Namine's role was pretty much all behind the scenes. Even her only dialog in the game is completely missable. If they wanted to have this be her moment we'd have needed a scene of it. Even if it's just their hearts connecting and chatting in a void.

Kairi's big scene was also mostly behind the scenes, we didn't get anything of her reaching out keeping Sora safe and together, we only got her being the light that guided Sora back, she wasn't highlited or spot ligted here, it was Sora's moment, or it felt that way to me.
It would have been nice if there were more like the scene previously mentioned or a scene of Kairi guiding each of the other hearts back as well, could have offered interesting scenes and character interactions.

That said, yeah most characters that weren't Sora got the short end of the stick in this game. Still some of the guys like Roxas, Riku, Donald, Goofy and Yen Sid did get at least one cool scenes. Though Riku's was just him going down like a bad ass...

Um no?
The Master's Keeper has been shown in BBS already to not vanish when lost. It keeps lying where it was dropped as shown in the Final Episode when Aqua comes to the ruined Land of Departure and finds the blade lying on the ground.
I always took that as Keyblades remaining were they fall, when their master falls, until they find a new weilder. That'd also explain all the remaining Keyblades at the graveyard.

I also don't get why, while it fell into the void with her, it ended up in the RoL while she didn't. My current guess it fell into the ocean that connects the realms and like Kairi's letter found it's way to the other realm.

That's indeed a question which would be worth addressing but Nomura clearly thinks explaining how Mickey lost his shirt in the RoD is more important. *derp*
The guy knows his priorities and what us Fans really want to know.

The more Master Defender is talked about, the more bummed I am that it's just lying nicely on the beach when Sora finds it and not half buried.
Honestly, while I do believe it was on the world of Destiny Island for awhile, I don't think it was on the beach until later. I figure it was washed ashore while the others were away, otherwise SRK would have noticed it before.

Though I do also like Spockanort's idea.

Rather the heavy handed nature of the romance was because of the translations. The scenes are much more subtle in the Japanese version, and are much more in character with how Sora and Kairi would speak to each other. Also the Japanese version puts more emphasis on Kairi’s strength rather than relating it to being Sora’s.
I hate how they changed the context here. While I do find the line that Kairi gives Sora strength somewhat cute. It's not even nearly as character building as Sora outright acknowledging Kairi's strength and growth.
 

FudgemintGuardian

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I headcanon that Maleficent and Pete ended up there and started digging and found it and Maleficent is like “leave that weak ass key there, this is not the box you imbicle”
I read that in Maleficent's voice and it's perfect.

Rather the heavy handed nature of the romance was because of the translations. The scenes are much more subtle in the Japanese version, and are much more in character with how Sora and Kairi would speak to each other. Also the Japanese version puts more emphasis on Kairi’s strength rather than relating it to being Sora’s.
The funny thing is, if the English version went the Japanese route, then we'd all have been complaining about them telling and not showing. lol


Even with Sora's "You make me strong, Kairi" being more romantic, I feel it's just...better than the Japanese version. How to put this, like, just saying Kairi is strong doesn't really have any weight to it for me. It's a false statement and nothing else, whereas saying Kairi makes Sora strong still says that she is while also making it more personal.

I'll also say it's possible there could be some classic Japanese vagueness going on that actually does make the Japanese line just as romantic, but it's hard for us to see that through a direct translation, so the English version opted for that to get the same intention across.
 
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Michael Mario

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That's interesting. Where has he said this?

KH3 is basically him and some other guy at the helm, and SoKai reached full blown blatant romance.
Admittedly, I should have double-checked before making that remark since I don't remember which interview Nomura said that; that being said, I do recall that the original comment was more regarding platonic friendship being the more important bond in Kingdom Hearts than romantic or familial ones... He never used the word "apathy" - that was an exaggeration on my part.

Yeah: Sora and Kairi stopped beating around the bush regarding their mutual feelings for each other that have been blatantly obvious from day 1; it's been a long time coming. From what I understand of what those particular scenes regarding their dynamic in the Japanese version compared to the English dub, it seems to be a matter of choosing to show and don't tell different things. The English version didn't necessarily need to make a point of telling us that Kairi is strong since her keeping Sora from dying after the initial "Demon Storm" wipeout made it very clear she [I]is[/I] strong...

...not that there is no telling at all since their scene at the Destiny Islands prior to the final battle had Kairi lay out her desire to protect Sora like he does her pretty plainly. Her kidnapping would probably been a bit easier to swallow had, say, the Keyblade Graveyard been a proper, longer final world with Kairi being a party member before that brief fight with Axel/Lea against Saix and Xion, but that's just me.
 

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My only complaint is that they didn't actually eat it (are you even supposed to? Maybe you only need to "share" one in the literal sense? Lol, what if Paopus are poisonous).
Pretty sure they do eat it, we just don't see them taking a bite. The mural thing is meant to be them each taking a bite, as when it goes back to them, one of the points on each of their paopus is missing.

Sora even breaks continuity by saying everything started when Kairi was missing when it was because of Riku! The power of love, my friends.
I don't think he's saying his journey started because she went missing, but rather on the day his journey began is when they first started being torn apart.

Xion wasn't quite herself at the time and if Sora (it really should have been Roxas) hadn't stepped in she might have done the job herself.
It's kind of implied that it /is/ Roxas, through Sora. When Sora says her name at the end, it's Roxas' voice.

The funny thing is, if the English version went the Japanese route, then we'd all have been complaining about them telling and not showing. lol


Even with Sora's "You make me strong, Kairi" being more romantic, I feel it's just...better than the Japanese version. How to put this, like, just saying Kairi is strong doesn't really have any weight to it for me. It's a false[/statement] statement and nothing else, whereas saying Kairi makes Sora strong still says that she is while also making it more personal.

I'll also say it's possible there could be some classic Japanese vagueness going on that actually does make the Japanese line just as romantic, but it's hard for us to see that through a direct translation, so the English version opted for that to get the same intention across.

Honestly I agree. I think the English line is a much stronger line that has the meaning of the Japanese line behind it, but with added depth and feeling to it. I also think HJO's delivery of it is A+. Like I get why people think the other one is better for Kairi, but "I feel strong with you" does say that Kairi is strong, and it also gets across in a more natural way Sora's admiration of her and her strength, imo. Furthermore, the Japanese line is something like "I knew you were also strong Kairi" or whatever, which to me has a feeling of like "see you are just as strong as me", feels like a light compliment, whereas the English line kind of implies he thinks Kairi is stronger than him, that he admires that strength, and that knowing her and being close to her makes him feel like he can be strong because of her. Idk, maybe it's just personal taste but I think the English line is better.
 

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So when people mentioned that Rapunzel gets removed as a party member after the visit to KoC, I thought that meant she would just be gone during revisits but, wow. They really just cut her out mid-visit, so all that time spent bonding with her through the forest segments has no payoff. Then again, she gets a boyfriend, so her real purpose in life has been fulfilled, I guess.

I'm glad at least Donald took a minute to recognize her strength of character, even if it's played off as more of a cheeky aside. Sora asking Flynn to look after her, and then Flynn saying he won't let her out of his sight, just...yeah, it's great! At least KH3 has the decency to foreshadow how disastrously it's going to treat the female KH OCs through the Disney worlds, like Sora's first conversation with Hercules about how to become strong basically boils down to, "Find a girl to save." Well, gee, Sora has those in spades, so I can't imagine why it takes him another 30 hours of plot material to figure out the Power of Waking.
 

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So when people mentioned that Rapunzel gets removed as a party member after the visit to KoC, I thought that meant she would just be gone during revisits but, wow. They really just cut her out mid-visit, so all that time spent bonding with her through the forest segments has no payoff. Then again, she gets a boyfriend, so her real purpose in life has been fulfilled, I guess.

I'm glad at least Donald took a minute to recognize her strength of character, even if it's played off as more of a cheeky aside. Sora asking Flynn to look after her, and then Flynn saying he won't let her out of his sight, just...yeah, it's great! At least KH3 has the decency to foreshadow how disastrously it's going to treat the female KH OCs through the Disney worlds, like Sora's first conversation with Hercules about how to become strong basically boils down to, "Find a girl to save." Well, gee, Sora has those in spades, so I can't imagine why it takes him another 30 hours of plot material to figure out the Power of Waking.
I did find it super shit she didn't get to fight Gothel's Heartless. I really don't know whose decision it was to keep the story so similar that they made her and Eugene stay in the tower during all the important stuff at the end, but I didn't like it. Like if they had given her that opportunity I would have been more okay with her removal in the end I guess. On the flip side, if they wanted to make Eugene still like half dead and unable to fight, that wouldn't really matter since he gets to stay a party member.
 

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You couldn't really keep Rapunzel as a party member mid level though. She had to be isolated from the group per events of the film.
 

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You couldn't really keep Rapunzel as a party member mid level though. She had to be isolated from the group per events of the film.
I guess I'm saying I think it was the wrong decision to follow the film so closely in that manner. I dunno if it was Roy since he worked on the game with them, or if it was someone on the Square side, but they literally changed the story of the Little Mermaid to keep her a mermaid after her and Eric are already dating just so we can sing crappy mini-games with her lol. But Rapunzel's story can't be shifted to keep her as a party member at least till the end of the world. I knew it was a possibility they would take even before the game came out, so I wasn't surprised but I still think it was avoidable.
 

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I did find it super shit she didn't get to fight Gothel's Heartless. I really don't know whose decision it was to keep the story so similar that they made her and Eugene stay in the tower during all the important stuff at the end, but I didn't like it. Like if they had given her that opportunity I would have been more okay with her removal in the end I guess. On the flip side, if they wanted to make Eugene still like half dead and unable to fight, that wouldn't really matter since he gets to stay a party member.
Step 1) Turn Gothel into a Heartless after that scene where she exudes darkness 'cause Rapunzel fucked up her furniture
Step 2) SDG + Flynn join Rapunzel in taking down Gothel Heartless
Step 3) In its death throes, Gothel Heartless mortally wounds Flynn
Step 4) Everything else plays out exactly the same

The current scenario leaves Flynn bleeding out and "dying" for the entire Gothel Heartless fight, like at that point Rapunzel might as well have taken him on horseback to the town and gotten him some medical attention. But then the entire world's plot is just poorly structured and integrated, like having the Nobodies appear during the lantern scene for no reason. Or having Rapunzel and Flynn leave the party during the first Nobody fight so that the time spent getting to know them as characters feels even more abbreviated, while the time spent in the world itself ends up feeling artificially protracted.

If the worlds are going to be this wooden in their conveyance of the Disney plotlines, I prefer the bifurcated brevity of a KH2 visit any day to this kind of never-ending slog. In the time I spent navigating the same three varieties of chapparel through Corona's "magical forest" I could have wrapped up two or three awful Disney retellings in any other game. And the single female party member we're allotted would have stuck it out, too.
 

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So when people mentioned that Rapunzel gets removed as a party member after the visit to KoC, I thought that meant she would just be gone during revisits but, wow. They really just cut her out mid-visit, so all that time spent bonding with her through the forest segments has no payoff.
I'm confused as to what the payoff should have been?

like Sora's first conversation with Hercules about how to become strong basically boils down to, "Find a girl to save." Well, gee, Sora has those in spades, so I can't imagine why it takes him another 30 hours of plot material to figure out the Power of Waking.
I feel like you're being kind of disingenuous here. Sora's conversation with Herc is something that is called back to in the plot a lot and it rarely has to do with "finding a girl to save". In fact the very first time Sora calls back to it it's him deciding to commit himself to saving Roxas.
 

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I'm confused as to what the payoff should have been?
Something that indicates there's an actual bond between Sora and Rapunzel + Flynn instead of taking a hard turn into "Rapunzel falling for the first dude she ever met" which was not, at any point, established prior to the two of them sitting on a boat together looking at the lanterns. They showed virtually no interest in each other during the entire journey through the forest which makes up the bulk of the world plot, it was all about Rapunzel discovering the world and how SDG were there to support her through it, and that gets completely shafted along with Rapunzel's character development.

I feel like you're being kind of disingenuous here. Sora's conversation with Herc is something that is called back to in the plot a lot and it rarely has to do with "finding a girl to save". In fact the very first time Sora calls back to it it's him deciding to commit himself to saving Roxas.
I feel like you're being kind of disingenuous, insinuating that you don't understand dramatic language well enough to see the throughline between Herc saving Meg from near death and Sora going after Kairi. The story uses a lot of different tangents as stepping stones, but that's the actual culmination of the events that take place.
 
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