The treatment of women in this series

[Nukara]

I guess I finally calmed my feelings towards this game enough to be able to write a proper response and not just "KH3 hates women", so let's see.

Spoiler Show

As for Kairi, like others said, my main issue here is that they dared to give us hope. I wasn't really expecting anything from her UNTIL the 3D secret ending. I don't have any issues with her VA like others had and actually enjoyed her quite a lot in the role, but It saddens me that her only utility through the game was to have Lea remember Xion and have a cute SoKai moment in Destiny Islands.
My only hope for her going foward in the franchise is if we get a future DLC that allows us to play as Aqua and Riku for the whole game and then, in another DLC batch, as a DLC costume for Aqua.

Naminé didn't show up at all through the entire game and her only scene is completely optional. Only served as motivation for Repliku. Then she's there in the ending as if nothing happened.

Xion came back out of nowhere with no proper explanation, but at least she held her own against the villain I guess, even if at Kairi's expense. Also, no one looked at her twice to talk about how she's literally Kairi with black hair? Hello? Only Riku, Roxas and Axel knew about her, so Sora not even questioning that is weird when they bothered to aknowledge Roxas and Ven.

And for Aqua.. boy, oh boy.

First there's the missing Keyblade. They never show her loosing her Keyblade and her introduction scene is a DIRECT follow up to Kh2.8 where it was perfectly fine, so it all boils down to a very obvious plothole to allow her to be taken out by Xehanort and corrupted for a boss fight that only really served to hype players through the trailers.
(and I'm still disappointed over it being the original Aqua and not a Replika made with Xemnas memories of her + her armor that was in his possession)

Being taken out by a simple Firaga shot by Vanitas is bad too since she managed to defeat a completed Vanitas WITH the X-Blade, and that was before the extra training she got while surviving in the Dark Realm for 10 years. So really, no excuses here.

But what actually made me vibrate with anger was the ending. Eraqus is already a garbage Master in general after all the shit he pulled in BBS, but for him to IGNORE Aqua completely and ask Terra, of all people, to keep everyone safe.. Excuse me? Terra failed his Mark of Mastery test, got manipulated by Xehanort and ended up killing his master (even if for a good reason), but he's the one who gets the final praise instead of you know, the only Master out of the trio who actually did her job instead of running away (Terra) and running after the runnaway (Ven)?

Not only disappointing but incredibly disrespectful of her character arc after she takes up his Keyblade and locks up Land of Departure essentially taking his position as the new Master of the land.

As of now I don't expect anything good to come for the women in this franchise ever again unless Nomura steps down and we get a new creative team to direct the next games.

Spoiler Show

Nomura is the creator of KH he can not go ,understand, otherwise we will get the second FF15.
It seems the game said that Aqua was weakened after being in darkness.
Well, Terra has always acted like a big brother for Ven and Aqua.
And the fact that the exam failed means nothing, Terra has always been the strongest among these two.
In addition, it is possible that Eragus, in this way, wanted to atone for his guilt in front of Terra, which is why in the BBS Terra chuvstvoval that his master underestimates him.

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

When Aqua falls in 0.2 and lays on the beach, her keyblade is next to her. She's either too tired to grab it or doesn't care at the time. But the keyblade gets taken to the realm of light as she falls. She is not seen with her keyblade at all past that point so there's reason to believe that yeah, she did in fact lose it at that moment.

I always wondered what happened to it. Did it dismiss itself? Did it fall with her? But as we saw... it went back the RoL and was buried under a year worth of sand.

She could have been rescued sooner if Kairi ever went over to the island between 1 and 2. Heck, SRK were even there at the end of KH2.

The idea that it could have been there this whole freaking time is hilarious and actually maybe makes things a little worse. lol

 

[alexis.anagram]

Just wanna acknowledge how diddlyed up it is that Sora outright references Kairi as a prize to be won/objective to be cleared, and frames it as though he keeps losing her after he ditched her on DI to go on fabulous adventure with Riku in the RoS when there was literally no reason she couldn't come along, even if all she did was sit around and have tea with Donald and Goofy. KH3 makes Sora kind of awful all around.

Also after some reflection, Xion's role is way worse than it seems at first glance. She's reduced to an afterthought and robbed of the agency that was built up for her throughout Days. I knew that making her a Seeker would be bad but I didn't think it would mean shafting her completely, like I thought there would at least be some BS about how she reclaims her heart in order to justify the turnabout.

 

[Michael Mario]

Just wanna acknowledge how diddlyed up it is that Sora outright references Kairi as a prize to be won/objective to be cleared, and frames it as though he keeps losing her after he ditched her on DI to go on fabulous adventure with Riku in the RoS when there was literally no reason she couldn't come along, even if all she did was sit around and have tea with Donald and Goofy. KH3 makes Sora kind of awful all around.

Also after some reflection, Xion's role is way worse than it seems at first glance. She's reduced to an afterthought and robbed of the agency that was built up for her throughout Days. I knew that making her a Seeker would be bad but I didn't think it would mean shafting her completely, like I thought there would at least be some BS about how she reclaims her heart in order to justify the turnabout.

Well, that BS you described [I]is[/I] there, but that bit of info is relegated to Xion's journal entry and is never properly explained in cutscenes; which was a [B][I]really[/I][/B] lazy, shoddy way of handling that reveal. I can't say that there wasn't any foreshadowing since the Replica project being in the Organization XIII's hands and Young Xehanort's experimentation in the Toy Box made it clear that Xion could be brought back that way, but could they [I]really[/I] not have been arsed to specifically imply that she's being controlled and doesn't have her heart initially?

Spoiler Show

All that having been said, though, I don't think female characters were uniquely given the shaft other than Kairi... But I didn't have high expectations for Kairi once it became clear to me that she and Lea weren't going to do much of anything other than train in that Hyperbolic Time Chamber Merlin whipped up for them. They might have had all the time in the world to train, but that safe, cushy environment was never going to be a proper substitute for the field experience that made Sora, Riku, Roxas, Xion, and TAV formidable Keyblade wielders. Even Lea, despite having more combat experience as a whole, still jobbed due to not having that experience with a Keyblade.

Even with Kairi, I suspect that her treatment is less due to her being female, and more due to her being Sora's love-interest when taking Nomura's own expressed apathy for romance in his works into account. If SoKai was his idea (which I seriously doubt), Nomura has a funny way of showing it since in a good romance you want both characters to be fully developed rather than relegate one to a plot device. TWEWY didn't have this problem with Neku and Shiki, though, and Nomura intended for Versus XIII to be in-part a love story, so I could be mistaken, but...

 

[Noivern]

When Aqua falls in 0.2 and lays on the beach, her keyblade is next to her. She's either too tired to grab it or doesn't care at the time. But the keyblade gets taken to the realm of light as she falls. She is not seen with her keyblade at all past that point so there's reason to believe that yeah, she did in fact lose it at that moment.

I always wondered what happened to it. Did it dismiss itself? Did it fall with her? But as we saw... it went back the RoL and was buried under a year worth of sand.

I call it bullshit. Whenever Sora or anyone else's Keyblades gets knocked from their hands we see them summon them in a beam of light right after. Even if somehow her Keyblade falling into the Dark Ocean made it impossible to get back to her, how comes no one else comes across it until that point? It's just really bad writing on top of bad writing, honestly.

Spoiler Show

Nomura is the creator of KH he can not go ,understand, otherwise we will get the second FF15.
It seems the game said that Aqua was weakened after being in darkness.
Well, Terra has always acted like a big brother for Ven and Aqua.
And the fact that the exam failed means nothing, Terra has always been the strongest among these two.
In addition, it is possible that Eragus, in this way, wanted to atone for his guilt in front of Terra, which is why in the BBS Terra chuvstvoval that his master underestimates him.

Not really. The manga and novels showed that there are people talented enough to take over him. He already laid enough fondation that anyone can build upon that, honestly.
Nomura himself started as just a designer in Squenix before his work in FF7 landed him the lead designer for FF8 and he slowly rose in ranks until the fated meeting in that elevator landed him his big project in KH.

And show me when exactly was Terra said to be the strongest? Gameplay wise, the BBS trio was built so each is on the same level as the others but focusing on a different aspect (Strenght, Speed and Magic). Although Ven started out weaker than them, by the time the ending fights take place they are definitely on the same level.
Then the two extra routes in BBS AND KH2.8 showed Aqua's achievments and she definitely should be above Terra during KH3.

This may look like I'm being aggressive towards you specifically and if you do interpret it as that then I'm sorry, it's not my intention. But I just wish Aqua was held to the same standart as other Masters in the franchise after all she's gone through.

 

[Sora2016]

Spoiler Show

Nomura is the creator of KH he can not go ,understand, otherwise we will get the second FF15.
It seems the game said that Aqua was weakened after being in darkness.
Well, Terra has always acted like a big brother for Ven and Aqua.
And the fact that the exam failed means nothing, Terra has always been the strongest among these two.
In addition, it is possible that Eragus, in this way, wanted to atone for his guilt in front of Terra, which is why in the BBS Terra chuvstvoval that his master underestimates him.

Nah, to be fair lots of series have gone on and prospered without their original creator. Sometimes its better when the OG is too stuck in the past lol. Which seems like it could be becoming an issue for Nomura.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

Even with Kairi, I suspect that her treatment is less due to her being female, and more due to her being Sora's love-interest when taking Nomura's own expressed apathy for romance in his works into account.

That's interesting. Where has he said this?

KH3 is basically him and some other guy at the helm, and SoKai reached full blown blatant romance.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I call it bullshit. Whenever Sora or anyone else's Keyblades gets knocked from their hands we see them summon them in a beam of light right after. Even if somehow her Keyblade falling into the Dark Ocean made it impossible to get back to her, how comes no one else comes across it until that point? It's just really bad writing on top of bad writing, honestly.

Um no?
The Master's Keeper has been shown in BBS already to not vanish when lost. It keeps lying where it was dropped as shown in the Final Episode when Aqua comes to the ruined Land of Departure and finds the blade lying on the ground.

That's interesting. Where has he said this?

KH3 is basically him and some other guy at the helm, and SoKai reached full blown blatant romance.

I don't remember exactly where it was but I think there were multiple instances in FF-related matters.
However if I recall correctly they weren't about Nomura not caring/being apathetic towards romance subplots in general but about him shrugging off questions regarding specific pairings or ambiguous cases and not caring about whatever subtext some fans want to interpret as text.

Interestingly, as I've read around other places on the net there are some claims that the Japanese version of KH III is way less directly "in your face" about the whole SoKai romance and instead aims more towards (finally) elevating Kairi to be on the same level of importance in terms of heart connection as Sora's other friends.
According to these, the English localisation plays up the romance-angle much more while the Japanese was more about starting to slowly turn Kairi into an equal player with the most blatant change being while they fly in the void towards the light where in the English version Sora says something like "You make me strong, Kairi." while in Japanese he says "You are indeed strong, Kairi." which I do think has quite a bit different meaning.

 

[Noivern]

Um no?
The Master's Keeper has been shown in BBS already to not vanish when lost. It keeps lying where it was dropped as shown in the Final Episode when Aqua comes to the ruined Land of Departure and finds the blade lying on the ground.

That was a different case though as the previous user was "dead" for all intents and purposes, while Aqua was very much alive. It's the same for the Keyblades in the Graveyard.

Unless it works like that because Eraqus never actually bequethed (is that how you write it?) the Key to Aqua so while she was able to wield it, she never actually claimed it for herself.

Or maybe The Master's Keeper is just a special Keyblade in general.

Still too convenient for me, thought.

 

[kirabook]

As Sephiroth said, the Master Defender is a weird keyblade that does not dismiss itself. Firstly, it's not hers (like No Name is not Xehanort's and did not fade when he died). Secondly, it's clear that you can't summon your keyblade across realms because Aqua's old one is still sitting in RG as far as we know (they had to have given that back if it's still there, right?)

As for the convenience of her not having her keyblade and it sitting on DI all this time... I dunno. The world was fading away and being rebuilt grain by grain. Maybe the Master Defender got buried and finally resurfaced when needed. Would've been interesting if Sora actually had to dig for it though. Spend all day on the beach with a metal detector until he finds it.

 

[Noivern]

As Sephiroth said, the Master Defender is a weird keyblade that does not dismiss itself. Firstly, it's not hers (like No Name is not Xehanort's and did not fade when he died). Secondly, it's clear that you can't summon your keyblade across realms because Aqua's old one is still sitting in RG as far as we know (they had to have given that back if it's still there, right?)

As for the convenience of her not having her keyblade and it sitting on DI all this time... I dunno. The world was fading away and being rebuilt grain by grain. Maybe the Master Defender got buried and finally resurfaced when needed. Would've been interesting if Sora actually had to dig for it though. Spend all day on the beach with a metal detector until he finds it.

Aqua's original Keyblade is the one Kairi wields as she bequeathed it to her. Before she summoned it during KH2, it was in the Chamber of Repose alongside her armor as shown in the cutscene from KH2 FM, as you can see here.

 

[kirabook]

I don't remember any official confirmation that the keyblade Riku gave to Kairi is Aqua's, just a popular headcanon. And bequeathing does not mean literally giving them your keyblade, they eventually summon their own if they're worthy enough.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

Aqua's original Keyblade is the one Kairi wields as she bequeathed it to her. Before she summoned it during KH2, it was in the Chamber of Repose alongside her armor as shown in the cutscene from KH2 FM, as you can see here.

That ain’t it, chief.

 

[Noivern]

I don't remember any official confirmation that the keyblade Riku gave to Kairi is Aqua's, just a popular headcanon. And bequeathing does not mean literally giving them your keyblade, they eventually summon their own if they're worthy enough.

Honestly, you are completely right. I forgot Riku was the one who brought it to her instead of her summoning it by herself. It does bring the question of where he even got it in the first place, though.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Honestly, you are completely right. I forgot Riku was the one who brought it to her instead of her summoning it by herself. It does bring the question of where he even got it in the first place, though.

That's indeed a question which would be worth addressing but Nomura clearly thinks explaining how Mickey lost his shirt in the RoD is more important. *derp*

 

[FudgemintGuardian]

As Sephiroth said, the Master Defender is a weird keyblade that does not dismiss itself. Firstly, it's not hers (like No Name is not Xehanort's and did not fade when he died). Secondly, it's clear that you can't summon your keyblade across realms because Aqua's old one is still sitting in RG as far as we know (they had to have given that back if it's still there, right?)

As for the convenience of her not having her keyblade and it sitting on DI all this time... I dunno. The world was fading away and being rebuilt grain by grain. Maybe the Master Defender got buried and finally resurfaced when needed. Would've been interesting if Sora actually had to dig for it though. Spend all day on the beach with a metal detector until he finds it.

The more Master Defender is talked about, the more bummed I am that it's just lying nicely on the beach when Sora finds it and not half buried.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

The more Master Defender is talked about, the more bummed I am that it's just lying nicely on the beach when Sora finds it and not half buried.

I headcanon that Maleficent and Pete ended up there and started digging and found it and Maleficent is like “leave that weak ass key there, this is not the box you imbicle”

 

[Elysium]

Not to be snarky and maybe there should be a ship thread to post in instead, but.... Am I the only one who doesn't get what there is that's so blatant about SoKai in KH3? It doesn't feel like any more or less than what's in KH1 and people have been sweeping that under a rug for years. I say that because I've always been resigned to SoKai happening because of KH1 and people would get angry with me because of it, but even I don't see anything heavily romantic in KH3? Blatant for me would have been Sora kissing Kairi before he vanishes. Most of what is said between Kairi and Sora in KH3 is vague enough that it could've been a converation between Sora and any of his friends.

As for the paopu, it was given romantic symbolism in KH1, imo, but things in KH1 have been undermined for so long to the point that I see the paopu as something representing non-romantic connections, too. The paopu appears as a part of Sora and Riku's shared keyblade in 3D, doesn't it? Sora and Kairi sharing the paopu is about Kairi not wanting to be separated again (almost as a setup for the fact that she is separated from everyone again 30 minutes later).

Interestingly, as I've read around other places on the net there are some claims that the Japanese version of KH III is way less directly "in your face" about the whole SoKai romance and instead aims more towards (finally) elevating Kairi to be on the same level of importance in terms of heart connection as Sora's other friends.
According to these, the English localisation plays up the romance-angle much more while the Japanese was more about starting to slowly turn Kairi into an equal player with the most blatant change being while they fly in the void towards the light where in the English version Sora says something like "You make me strong, Kairi." while in Japanese he says "You are indeed strong, Kairi." which I do think has quite a bit different meaning.

Interesting. What strange changes.

 

[Zettaflare]

Not to be snarky and maybe there should be a ship thread to post in instead, but.... Am I the only one who doesn't get what there is that's so blatant about SoKai in KH3? It doesn't feel like any more or less than what's in KH1 and people have been sweeping that under a rug for years. I say that because I've always been resigned to SoKai happening because of KH1 and people would get angry with me because of it, but even I don't see anything heavily romantic in KH3? Blatant for me would have been Sora kissing Kairi before he vanishes. Most of what is said between Kairi and Sora in KH3 is vague enough that it could've been a converation between Sora and any of his friends.

As for the paopu, it was given romantic symbolism in KH1, imo, but things in KH1 have been undermined for so long to the point that I see the paopu as something representing non-romantic connections, too. The paopu appears as a part of Sora and Riku's shared keyblade in 3D, doesn't it? Sora and Kairi sharing the paopu is about Kairi not wanting to be separated again (almost as a setup for the fact that she is separated from everyone again 30 minutes later).


Interesting. What strange changes.

They were holding hands though. I'd say that's as good as confirmation. Do you want them to kiss in KH4, lol?

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

When Sora and Kairi share the paopus, it is a callback phrase to KH1 about it being a lucky charm to make sure they make it back to each other.

https://twitter.com/shioouji_khux/status/1093169101911003136?s=21

It becomes less romantically defined and is much more natural.