[SPOILERS] Hearts other than your own...

[Marx15]

The reason Xemnas said that was because of Terra's memories of when he first met Ven. When MX dropped Ven of at LoD, Ven immediately passed out and went to sleep for a long time. That's what Xemnas is refering to.

You do realize everything I said about Vanitas' heart being inside Xemnas was total BS right....hence my statement...

This is total BS mind you. I've seen crazier theories.

And definitely that part you chose for sure.

 

[Goldpanner]

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jks

This was a really interesting read!! I really hope that the CoS/CoW do end up with a plot half this cool. They've been a mystery in this series for so long, and you've had a few theories on them haven't you haha

Also I hadn't really thought about the pointy ears also being part of the connection until now. Made me go google Vanitas and I don't think we ever see his ears!! That would be such a clincher...

Re:Van-Sora looking alike
It still doesn't really make a lot of sense. If I dig a hole and then fill it with sand, the dirt around the hole and the sand may very well mingle, but the displaced dirt shouldn't have any connection to the sand I put in. Hearts are more complicated, of course, but that's where my brain hits a speedbump logic-wise lol. I think in reality it's just that Nomura thought an evil Sora would look cool, and Ven looking like Roxas would be a cool twist that would stump people in the secret trailer, and then he wrote around that idea. So I'm not sure if he will bother to keep using the logic he made up for Ven/Vani/Sora in other similar characters, if he has other cool ideas for them...

Alsooo cause I think skimming through I saw a mention of 'no death in KH' and then babbled to myself in a notepad about it, but I will put that in a spoiler so as not to derail the thread.

Spoiler Show

I think it's important to remember that Nomura was speaking from the perspective of a Japanese man to a Japanese audience, and unless you are Japanese too (idk if you are) he therefore probably has a different body of ideas and associations behind his use of the word 'death'.

For example, some of the concepts surrounding Kingdom Hearts itself is pretty eastern: a body of spirit energy from which every soul is born? Entire worlds having souls of their own from nature? The confusing distinctions and specifics of the concepts of heart, body, soul (aka the life force of the body, said by Nomura to animate the Nobodies), memories and persona in this series?

It reminds me of how I read that in Shinto belief, when people die, after a certain time at least part of their soul becomes part of a collective ancestor spirit. I'm not an Easterner myself, but from what I've read about Shintoism it seems to me that their ideas about the 'soul' and 'self' are very different.

So perhaps, when Nomura says there is no 'death', he means that there is no death in the sense that the characters' souls lose their individuality and merge into some sort of collective or amalgamation (like Kingdom Hearts is said to be. Perhaps having such a symbolic entity in the series already made him feel like he needed to stress the difference in that interview).
In which case, the concept isn't that different from the Western concept of the afterlife. To a typical Westerner, I'd say that we consider our souls to be the embodiment of our selves, and even after death that soul contains all the information that makes us 'us' as we are. Which sounds a lot like what Nomura meant by having the characters 'sleep' as they are.

This series has other concepts that sound Western, too. The consequences of the Keyblade War are so much like Original Sin, and I've seen some interesting connections between the X-blade and the Keys of Heaven.

 

[Ikkin]

Spoiler Show

In which case, the concept isn't that different from the Western concept of the afterlife. To a typical Westerner, I'd say that we consider our souls to be the embodiment of our selves, and even after death that soul contains all the information that makes us 'us' as we are. Which sounds a lot like what Nomura meant by having the characters 'sleep' as they are.

This series has other concepts that sound Western, too. The consequences of the Keyblade War are so much like Original Sin, and I've seen some interesting connections between the X-blade and the Keys of Heaven.

Spoiler Show

Calling death "sleep" doesn't just sound Western - it could very well be a direct reference to the New Testament (since the Apostle Paul was rather fond of that particular euphemism).

Nomura definitely seems to have a thing for Catholicism, in any case. One of the playable characters in FFversusXIII wears a rosary, and Cloud curing Denzel of Geostigma by pouring water over his head in the middle of a church in Advent (!) Children is the most blatantly symbolic thing I've seen since The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe. The tale of the Children of Light and the X-blade being references to Original Sin and the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven wouldn't be unusual given his modus operandi at all (and neither would the Sora-Roxas-Xion trinity link).

 

[gelandporn]

The thing about the physical changes that we saw with Sora, Ven and Vanitas was that neither of the two changed by it had yet been given a physical form/facial definition.

Ven affected Sora because Sora's heart had just been created and he didn't exactly have a body of his own yet (Nomura basically suggested in one interview that he had intended Sora's heart to have appeared to Ven before he was born, but he avoided that because Western countries think the metaphysical heart doesn't exist until birth [?!?]). Even assuming that Sora was an infant, though, he still had plenty of growing to do that could easily make him more Ven-like (and eye color isn't set until later on anyway).

Sora affected Vanitas because Vanitas was basically just an Unversed with a human shape. He didn't have a face under the helmet, so when one was created, it was influenced by Sora.

Ven wasn't affected because he was old enough for his features to have been completely defined.

Now, of course, in this theory all of the yellow-eyes-and-pointy-ears people are old enough that they should be more like Ven. The thing is, though, Ven was allowed to rest in Sora's heart with no interference at all on Sora's part. Regardless of how he did it, a connection to Xehanort would be bound to be more invasive and malignant -- Sora's heart shelters others, while Xehanort's heart confines and suffocates them.

Yeah.
I mean, one of the things I was thinking about was, for instance, would Sora technically look more like Kairi from hosting her heart? Well if we're going by the example set by Terranort, it's hard to say. Terra's skin, eyes, ears and hair changed to look more like MX's. But for Sora, most of this would not change even if Kairi's heart had an effect. White skin, blue eyes, round ears, not much difference between the two. The only notable difference is Kairi's red hair, and obviously Sora does not gain red hair lol.

So what gives? What's the difference? For starters, I think Xehanort is, as you said, more "invasive and malignant." Xehanort was taking over through the power of darkness, Kairi was seeking shelter through the power of light, so I really doubt her heart would have any physical effect on Sora.
But what about Ven's heart (assuming it did influence Sora's appearance)? That would have to do, I imagine, with the intimacy of the connection. Sora's connection to Ven is stronger than his connection was to Kairi. He's not just harboring Ven's heart, he's filling in the missing place, the two hearts are deeply merged, which I think is a reasonable enough explanation for the physical alterations.

So, going back to Xehanort, could he produce the physical changes in the seeds through simply "connecting" to their hearts as opposed to actually placing a piece of his heart in them? Because of the power of darkness, that really wouldn't surprise me. But as I've said, I still find it easier to account for these physical changes through a much more... concrete idea such as the horcrux theory.

Then Xehanort made a bad move though on keeping his seeds alive, lol, I thought these were made by him in case his possession of Terra fails...if they're "killed" (sent to sleep or whatever) wouldn't that contradict his plans?
All others except Vanitas of course, as having the dark "core" of the X-blade already ready at his hands is surely a boon for Xehanort's plans.

It depends, really, because I'm sure he'd be aware that there are multiple consequences to placing pieces of his heart in others. It's a matter of what his primary motive is in doing so.
Increased chances of survival is definitely one result, but it doesn't necessarily have to be his primary motive.
As we were talking about earlier, Braig's heart may have been "harvested" by Xehanort in that DDD scene, so obviously it would be silly for him to be essentially killing one of his seeds if he were just using them for survival.

Consuming the hearts of his seeds and creating an amalgamation of hearts could be a part of some further scheme of Xehanort's, though I'm not too sure what it could be. I mean, I'm sure that will make his darkness much stronger (acquiring the darkness of Braig, Isa and Vanitas), but there's probably something more to it.

The one question I have though....when did MX get the time to put a piece of his heart within Isa. For all we know, at this point, he never interacted with them in BBS.
And if he did it as Apprentice Xehanort, that would be harder wouldn't it. Since he'd have to deal with Terra/Eraqus too...didn't the hearts within the body merge together?

It would have to be as Apprentice Xehanort, obviously.
I don't think it's that much of a stretch for him to be capable of doing it as AX.

I mean, look at when he split Ven's heart. He was able to, with precision, separate the dark half from the light half (and that's not even his own heart). The man knows what he's doing. Furthermore, he was capable of detecting the hearts residing within him, as we see in the secret ending. So all he would have to do would be, yes, to make sure to remove a fragment of his own heart and not Terra's or Eraqus', and I fully believe he'd be able to do that.

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Re:Van-Sora looking alike
It still doesn't really make a lot of sense. If I dig a hole and then fill it with sand, the dirt around the hole and the sand may very well mingle, but the displaced dirt shouldn't have any connection to the sand I put in. Hearts are more complicated, of course, but that's where my brain hits a speedbump logic-wise lol. I think in reality it's just that Nomura thought an evil Sora would look cool, and Ven looking like Roxas would be a cool twist that would stump people in the secret trailer, and then he wrote around that idea. So I'm not sure if he will bother to keep using the logic he made up for Ven/Vani/Sora in other similar characters, if he has other cool ideas for them...

Yeah, good point, I mean, Nomura was actually considering making Ven look like Sora and Vanitas look like Roxas, so he definitely just wanted more look alikes and the logic behind it was an afterthought.

That's another reason why I don't want it to be caused by a heart-connection, because the reasoning just isn't as strong. It could still work buuut...

Spoiler Show

I think it's important to remember that Nomura was speaking from the perspective of a Japanese man to a Japanese audience, and unless you are Japanese too (idk if you are) he therefore probably has a different body of ideas and associations behind his use of the word 'death'.

For example, some of the concepts surrounding Kingdom Hearts itself is pretty eastern: a body of spirit energy from which every soul is born? Entire worlds having souls of their own from nature? The confusing distinctions and specifics of the concepts of heart, body, soul (aka the life force of the body, said by Nomura to animate the Nobodies), memories and persona in this series?

It reminds me of how I read that in Shinto belief, when people die, after a certain time at least part of their soul becomes part of a collective ancestor spirit. I'm not an Easterner myself, but from what I've read about Shintoism it seems to me that their ideas about the 'soul' and 'self' are very different.

So perhaps, when Nomura says there is no 'death', he means that there is no death in the sense that the characters' souls lose their individuality and merge into some sort of collective or amalgamation (like Kingdom Hearts is said to be. Perhaps having such a symbolic entity in the series already made him feel like he needed to stress the difference in that interview).
In which case, the concept isn't that different from the Western concept of the afterlife. To a typical Westerner, I'd say that we consider our souls to be the embodiment of our selves, and even after death that soul contains all the information that makes us 'us' as we are. Which sounds a lot like what Nomura meant by having the characters 'sleep' as they are.

This series has other concepts that sound Western, too. The consequences of the Keyblade War are so much like Original Sin, and I've seen some interesting connections between the X-blade and the Keys of Heaven.

The RoS reminds me of Sheol, though that state of existence is described more as a dreamless sleep.
I think it's pretty appropriate for death in KH to be referred to as "sleep," as it is in the Bible, because the word evokes the idea of an inevitable awakening, which, as we know, seems to be the direction the series is taking.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Yeah.
I mean, one of the things I was thinking about was, for instance, would Sora technically look more like Kairi from hosting her heart? Well if we're going by the example set by Terranort, it's hard to say. Terra's skin, eyes, ears and hair changed to look more like MX's. But for Sora, most of this would not change even if Kairi's heart had an effect. White skin, blue eyes, round ears, not much difference between the two. The only notable difference is Kairi's red hair, and obviously Sora does not gain red hair lol.

So what gives? What's the difference? For starters, I think Xehanort is, as you said, more "invasive and malignant." Xehanort was taking over through the power of darkness, Kairi was seeking shelter through the power of light, so I really doubt her heart would have any physical effect on Sora.
But what about Ven's heart (assuming it did influence Sora's appearance)? That would have to do, I imagine, with the intimacy of the connection. Sora's connection to Ven is stronger than his connection was to Kairi. He's not just harboring Ven's heart, he's filling in the missing place, the two hearts are deeply merged, which I think is a reasonable enough explanation for the physical alterations.

So, going back to Xehanort, could he produce the physical changes in the seeds through simply "connecting" to their hearts as opposed to actually placing a piece of his heart in them? Because of the power of darkness, that really wouldn't surprise me. But as I've said, I still find it easier to account for these physical changes through a much more... concrete idea such as the horcrux theory.

Terranort was one heart dominating another though, Kairi's heart didn't try to overtake Sora's.
And as you said, it probably has to do with the actual deepness of the connection.

Although Sora's heart in the prologue of BBS only spoke of that his and Ven's heart have touched (like Sora's heart putting its hand on the wound in Ven's preventing it from falling apart completely) instead of an actual merge (it was only a connection after all), Data-Namine said something among the lines that Sora and Ven share a connection closer than any other.
Probably the closest connection possible between hearts that isn't an outright fusion.
The obvious hint for an influence on appearance would, as said, be the eyes. Aqua, Terra and Kairi have different shades of blue, but Sora's and Ven's are exactly the same.

It may be also worth noting that Sora's heart didn't actually fully heal Ven's heart...it just prevented it from fading completely. This is evidenced by Ven afterwards still only half-conscious and totally helpless, described by Nomura that his heart "hasn't fully formed yet".
This indicates that the injuries of the heart only healed over time during the four years he was with Terra, Aqua and Eraqus.

Going back to Xehanort.
Yes, in fact I am convinced now that the "type" or "way" of Xehanort connecting with other hearts may be elementary different from Sora's, also on the notion that Xehanort apparently does it willingly and with definite (mostly sinister) goals while Sora does it more subconsciously without actually having a plan or ambitions...he just wants to help.

It depends, really, because I'm sure he'd be aware that there are multiple consequences to placing pieces of his heart in others. It's a matter of what his primary motive is in doing so.
Increased chances of survival is definitely one result, but it doesn't necessarily have to be his primary motive.
As we were talking about earlier, Braig's heart may have been "harvested" by Xehanort in that DDD scene, so obviously it would be silly for him to be essentially killing one of his seeds if he were just using them for survival.

Consuming the hearts of his seeds and creating an amalgamation of hearts could be a part of some further scheme of Xehanort's, though I'm not too sure what it could be. I mean, I'm sure that will make his darkness much stronger (acquiring the darkness of Braig, Isa and Vanitas), but there's probably something more to it.

That's true, Master Xehanort is a master schemer with vast knowledge on the heart and its capabilities. Since we don't know how deep his knowledge really reaches we can't rule out other motives.

Vanitas's(or rather, Ven's) darkness added wouldn't do MX much good though, as opposed to Braig's and Isa's darkness this one, Vanitas, has gained sentience and a will of his own.
Riku Replica and Xion also made their creators a lot of headaches by developing an independent sense of self on their own.

But still...one thing irks me about that.
What is Kingdom Hearts (the entity, not the series)? It is a union or conglomerate of several hearts. Could Xehanort be about to develop his own "mini"-Kingdom Hearts?

 

[chasespicer056]

Great theory Grass! You really tied together a lot of things here.

But still...one thing irks me about that.
What is Kingdom Hearts (the entity, not the series)? It is a union or conglomerate of several hearts. Could Xehanort be about to develop his own "mini"-Kingdom Hearts?

I doubt it. Xemnas already made the mistake of trying to create his own Kingdom Hearts.

I think that this time, Xehanort is going to go after the real thing.

 

[madammina]

I have to admit, it's interesting.

I thought Sora was hallucinating Vanitas though. But the "too" I DID find interesting. Anyway, it's something to keep in mind. And poor Axel/Lea if this is true. But I'm behind the CoS and CoW connection!

I wonder why Ven didn't let Axel find his body...

 

[Ikkin]

I wonder why Ven didn't let Axel find his body...

I doubt Ven has a choice in the matter. Aqua made Castle Oblivion, so only she can unlock it, according to Eraqus.

 

[SeaSalt]

Great theory Grass! You really tied together a lot of things here.



I doubt it. Xemnas already made the mistake of trying to create his own Kingdom Hearts.

I think that this time, Xehanort is going to go after the real thing.

Xehanort would have to start from scratch to creat a new kingdom hearts, and Xemnas was working on it as early as the beginning of Days (that we know of)

plus the original kingdom hearts would be more powerful, i think.

and where is it located now? where did the keyblade graveyard go?

 

[Marx15]

Xehanort would have to start from scratch to creat a new kingdom hearts, and Xemnas was working on it as early as the beginning of Days (that we know of)

plus the original kingdom hearts would be more powerful, i think.

and where is it located now? where did the keyblade graveyard go?

For all we know, Xemnas had started it during the events in KH1.

And Kingdom Hearts is not located in the Keyblade Graveyard. In BBS it was summoned to the Keyblade Graveyard. Kingdom Hearts resides within the RoD.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

I doubt it. Xemnas already made the mistake of trying to create his own Kingdom Hearts.

I think that this time, Xehanort is going to go after the real thing.

It was not really a mistake, it did give him quite a power boost despite the thing being badly damaged through Ansem the Wise.

Xehanort is always going for the real thing, the one Xemnas made was also a real one, just one made out of human hearts instead of world's hearts.

I wonder why Ven didn't let Axel find his body...

Huh? Just assuming now that Ven would be even capable of doing that, his actual state of his heart being totally crushed and him needing to sleep in order to bear the pain and have his heart not totally disappearing neglected in favor of the theory.
Why the heck would Ven allow Axel to find him? AXEL? A member or Organization XIII, who, last time I checked, were the villains and certainly not the type of beings Ventus would provide with any trust for finding his body.

In fact, if Ventus himself would be capable of letting anyone "find" his body by himself he would limit the people he trusts enough for that to just four:
-Terra
-Aqua
-Sora
-Mickey.

I doubt Ven has a choice in the matter. Aqua made Castle Oblivion, so only she can unlock it, according to Eraqus.

Not only a choice, but also no capable meaning of doing it considering Ventus's state.
I would bet he has other things to worry about than guide someone to his body...especially not someone who works for an evil Organization full of crazy maniacs incapable of true emotion.

Xehanort would have to start from scratch to creat a new kingdom hearts, and Xemnas was working on it as early as the beginning of Days (that we know of)

plus the original kingdom hearts would be more powerful, i think.

and where is it located now? where did the keyblade graveyard go?

When he really has already parts of his heart put as "seeds" into other hearts as stated in the theory it could be very well a starting point for him, only with his own heart at the center, becoming magnitudes more powerful by having the powers of multiple hearts and then go for the X-blade and the big KH made out of world's hearts.

The original KH was always located in the RoD, it was only summoned shortly to the Keyblade Graveyard while the X-blade existed.

 

[madammina]

Because Axel is Lea who is one of the friends that Ven made in his world travels, and one that really effected Ven.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Because Axel is Lea who is one of the friends that Ven made in his world travels, and one that really effected Ven.

Only that Axel is not exactly Lea, he's Lea's nobody and on top of that Ven only met him for like hardly 20 minutes. Affected or not, I highly doubt that would lead to deep enough trust levels to lead someone to your own comatose body, especially if you can't trust that person.
It has been proven more than once that Axel can't be trusted, he's a chronic backstabber that got only lessened a bit in KH2...which was after he deserted the Org of loyalty to Roxas.
(Again, this being only hypothetical since considering Ven's state and Aqua's involvement it would make no sense).

Also, you again forget for who Axel was working and under which orders he did search for the Chamber of Waking.

Finally, Aqua being the only one able to lead the way to Ven is one of Aqua's important plot importances, it wouldn't be wise to take that away from her and also largely render the transformation from LoD into CO useless.