[SPOILER] KH2.8 discussion

[Werkdaddy]

We may not know any specifics on how Keyblades are created, but the implications that they can simply be created/pulled from within a heart are steadily getting more ground with the latest developments.
Worlds have hearts too so the KKD being created/pulled from DI's heart is certainly possible.

There is actually only one Keyblade that isn't "man-made" to some degree and that is the original thing and model for all the others, the X-blade (as in Chi-Blade).

And every RoL-Keyblade having an exact counterpart in the RoD is problematic exactly how?
I don't recall it ever being officially stated in-universe or in meta-material that there exists only one Keyblade that has a counterpart in the RoD.
In order to close the Door to Darkness the only important thing is that a matching pair is used.

In general there isn't a problem with there being mulitple keyblades in the RoD, in fact Nomura said the only difference between keyblade from the two realms is there point of origin. But if this is the case then Mickey would have found one a lot easier, heck Aqua would have stumbled upon a few in her whole time in the Rod. It would be cool to see a Keyblade Graveyard in the Rod as a counterpart though.

 

[catcake]

Finally played it today, I overall liked it a lot, the combat was fun and even the command style I hated in BBS worked well here. But I gotta say, did not like that final boss one bit. All the other bosses were fun, I loved them, but then that final one was just... eh. Dodge dodge spam magic or shotlock let Mickey do his thing, dodge more. It wasn't even that it was hard, just annoying and took way too long and wasn't fun. Disappointing. And yeeeah the way they explained everything and tried to fill the blanks, felt awkward for me. And Aqua acted a bit weird, would have thought meeting Terra all of a sudden after 10 years would have gotten a bigger reaction out of her but. Hm. Honestly after DDD ending I wasn't expecting the plot to be amazing so yeah. It didn't ruin it for me.

Looking forward to playing again tomorrow, all in all I liked it a lot and had fun playing it. Might even jump up to my third fave, we'll see how DDD does in HD first.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm just pretty much underwhelmed by everything from the final boss on. It's not like I'm entirely pissed, but again we have so much potential here that wasn't used. Like Riku runming past Aqua and Mickey and seriously not noticing anything that happens around him? Or the thing with the KKD just lying there like HAH. The game is like 3 hours, couldn't they have done more at least with these points? I was also highly disappointed they didnt remake the short memory scenes of BBS Aqua had in Castle Town. It's not like they didn't have Ven and Terra models anyways.
Sure maybe that sounds like asking a lot for some 3 second backflashes, but I paid 60 bucks for half a movie, a remaster and an episode that was not only short but also not that thrilling or even helpful to the plot or anything.

I actually kind of liked that they didn't remake the flashback scenes. It had a sort of "look how far we've come (visually)" feel.

Also, i posted this in the other thread because i had brought up my issues with the story there, but it probably belongs in here more.

Spoiler Show

major 0.2 spoilers and rant~

0.2 doesn't full on contradict blank points (as in, you can make an argument on how it still works together) but it most definitely and absolutely undercuts the emotional weight of it incredibly. Aqua crying about hearing how the little boy she met once has grown up and saved the world, and how this gives her hope, also carries with it the implication that she is learning for the first time how much time has passed, too. She also implies that she does not know about the state of the worlds, or that they were ever really in danger. She hears of this boy saving the worlds and asks if it is Terra or Ven only to be let down, and then asks who this boy is, but she already knew short of a year ago that not only was Sora a Keyblade wielder but that he had already succeeded in saving the worlds. It just doesn't work as well and it totally undermines the weight of Blank Points. Yeah you can say it still technically works and she's just relieved to hear Sora is fine and she didn't know about the second time the worlds were in danger, but, /c'mon/. Aqua has gone through like eleven years of hell and doesn't cry once but she cries when she hears that the Keyblade wielder she already knew about a year ago was still saving the worlds? C'mon, now.

0.2 wrecked, for me, one of my absolute favourite moments in the entire series, and I'll probably never forgive it for that. If it weren't for the fact that, gameplay wise, it is well made and visually impressive and all of that, I'd probably consider it the worst entry in the series.

And that isn't even getting into all the hammy, fanficcy, terrible retcons, contradictions and developments it does in other areas of the story (basically everything from the Terra meeting on is iffy af -- "Surprise! The KKD was just sitting behind the door and all Mickey had to do was grab it and then bam they were teleported straight to the DtD~" "Surprise! Either Mickey converses with Riku in a flash of light between scene transitions or this is just flat out contradicted~" "Surprise! Aqua was RIGHT there during the KH1 ending!" "And they give a contrived reason for why she can't help because destiny~" "If Riku had just looked up he would have seen her~~~~, or if Donald and Goofy had looked inside just a bit longer~~" "OMG the Plot just rammed Aqua through the door and of course it dramatically shuts behind immediately and then disappears while shirtless Mickey just watches on dumbstruck" like good lord. So much would have been helped if they had just been separated before all of the KH1 ending bull It completely robs the KH1 ending of its brilliant evocation effect and mysterious atmosphere and what its replaced with was not worth it at all. All of these retcons and undercutting of past moments (think of just how hollow the iconic Mickey scene feels in its usage here, not even a scene now, but a line, a shadow, of what it used to mean.) and it's in service of what, exactly? It brings no true meaningful development, for the characters or the lore, it just fills in gaps that didn't need filling while writing in crayon over top of passages that were already well written and evocative.). Not to mention just the weird storytelling hiccups (things don't flow smoothly or have clear cause and effect, you leave one area and bam you're just in the next area. You move from one image to an entirely different one with no connective tissue between them, seemingly operating on what looks cool (Aqua and Ven get grabbed by sparkly magic hands and then.... the next scene is just Aqua randomly falling and accepting death? It's like they came up with two images, slapped them together, and then forgot to make them flow into each other naturally.)

The only saving grace is that the post-credits scene and its implied developments for KH3 are strong enough that there is still hope, otherwise... I don't know. I have never been this disappointed with the series and I feel like I have lost so much enthusiasm for it.

That's how I feel anyway :/

(also i know ur excited to have a new arc phrase nomura but show some restraint, gosh. i swear you hear the phrase "may your heart be your guiding key" like twenty times in the span of three hours in 2.8)

 

[Sephiroth0812]

This is actually taken here from the other thread:

I mean, we were totally led to believe that at the very least BC would reveal who the traitor is.

NOMURA: As for the traitor, that is the keyword which the plot of KHχBC revolves around, so I think this too will be revealed in KHχBC.

I see where you come from, yet I do also understand why Back Cover ultimatively did not go the whole way.
If one of the five Foretellers would be revealed to be the definitive single traitor while Unchained X is still in service, how do you think this would affect players in his/her attached union and the dynamic of the whole game?
Browser-Chi's finale already made it a point that no one found out who the traitor is before everything was already too late to salvage.

 

[VoidGear.]

I actually kind of liked that they didn't remake the flashback scenes. It had a sort of "look how far we've come (visually)" feel.

I thought so, too, in the beginning. In the end though it appeared to me that that could've been just a small thing to make me like the game just a bit better. The scenes themselves aren't too thrilling though anyways since they're supposed to make you look back and remember and feel sorry for Aqua but how if BBS was empty of emotion honestly?

Spoiler Show

major 0.2 spoilers and rant~

0.2 doesn't full on contradict blank points (as in, you can make an argument on how it still works together) but it most definitely and absolutely undercuts the emotional weight of it incredibly. Aqua crying about hearing how the little boy she met once has grown up and saved the world, and how this gives her hope, also carries with it the implication that she is learning for the first time how much time has passed, too. She also implies that she does not know about the state of the worlds, or that they were ever really in danger. She hears of this boy saving the worlds and asks if it is Terra or Ven only to be let down, and then asks who this boy is, but she already knew short of a year ago that not only was Sora a Keyblade wielder but that he had already succeeded in saving the worlds. It just doesn't work as well and it totally undermines the weight of Blank Points. Yeah you can say it still technically works and she's just relieved to hear Sora is fine and she didn't know about the second time the worlds were in danger, but, /c'mon/. Aqua has gone through like eleven years of hell and doesn't cry once but she cries when she hears that the Keyblade wielder she already knew about a year ago was still saving the worlds? C'mon, now.

0.2 wrecked, for me, one of my absolute favourite moments in the entire series, and I'll probably never forgive it for that. If it weren't for the fact that, gameplay wise, it is well made and visually impressive and all of that, I'd probably consider it the worst entry in the series.

And that isn't even getting into all the hammy, fanficcy, terrible retcons, contradictions and developments it does in other areas of the story (basically everything from the Terra meeting on is iffy af -- "Surprise! The KKD was just sitting behind the door and all Mickey had to do was grab it and then bam they were teleported straight to the DtD~" "Surprise! Either Mickey converses with Riku in a flash of light between scene transitions or this is just flat out contradicted~" "Surprise! Aqua was RIGHT there during the KH1 ending!" "And they give a contrived reason for why she can't help because destiny~" "If Riku had just looked up he would have seen her~~~~, or if Donald and Goofy had looked inside just a bit longer~~" "OMG the Plot just rammed Aqua through the door and of course it dramatically shuts behind immediately and then disappears while shirtless Mickey just watches on dumbstruck" like good lord. So much would have been helped if they had just been separated before all of the KH1 ending bull It completely robs the KH1 ending of its brilliant evocation effect and mysterious atmosphere and what its replaced with was not worth it at all. All of these retcons and undercutting of past moments (think of just how hollow the iconic Mickey scene feels in its usage here, not even a scene now, but a line, a shadow, of what it used to mean.) and it's in service of what, exactly? It brings no true meaningful development, for the characters or the lore, it just fills in gaps that didn't need filling while writing in crayon over top of passages that were already well written and evocative.). Not to mention just the weird storytelling hiccups (things don't flow smoothly or have clear cause and effect, you leave one area and bam you're just in the next area. You move from one image to an entirely different one with no connective tissue between them, seemingly operating on what looks cool (Aqua and Ven get grabbed by sparkly magic hands and then.... the next scene is just Aqua randomly falling and accepting death? It's like they came up with two images, slapped them together, and then forgot to make them flow into each other naturally.)

The only saving grace is that the post-credits scene and its implied developments for KH3 are strong enough that there is still hope, otherwise... I don't know. I have never been this disappointed with the series and I feel like I have lost so much enthusiasm for it.

That's how I feel anyway :/

(also i know ur excited to have a new arc phrase nomura but show some restraint, gosh. i swear you hear the phrase "may your heart be your guiding key" like twenty times in the span of three hours in 2.8)

Mostly agreed on all of this. Sometimes this forced "we need to tie everything together and explain / add stuff that no one wants or needs and that just downright takes the magic of already existing content" gets quite annoying and 0.2 was basically a fest filled with it.

As for the last part: I get how they're trying to set a tone and a "theme" for what's coming up and I'm sure this "may your heart be your guiding key" links to the "key to return hearts" stuff somehow, but throwing it in our faces like ALL THE TIME in about 5 hours in a series that never mentioned this sentence anywhere for 15 years is too much to bear. When Goofy joined in on that, I lost it. It was just cringeworthy.

 

[kirabook]

I actually kind of liked that they didn't remake the flashback scenes. It had a sort of "look how far we've come (visually)" feel.

Also, i posted this in the other thread because i had brought up my issues with the story there, but it probably belongs in here more.

Spoiler Show

major 0.2 spoilers and rant~

0.2 doesn't full on contradict blank points (as in, you can make an argument on how it still works together) but it most definitely and absolutely undercuts the emotional weight of it incredibly. Aqua crying about hearing how the little boy she met once has grown up and saved the world, and how this gives her hope, also carries with it the implication that she is learning for the first time how much time has passed, too. She also implies that she does not know about the state of the worlds, or that they were ever really in danger. She hears of this boy saving the worlds and asks if it is Terra or Ven only to be let down, and then asks who this boy is, but she already knew short of a year ago that not only was Sora a Keyblade wielder but that he had already succeeded in saving the worlds. It just doesn't work as well and it totally undermines the weight of Blank Points. Yeah you can say it still technically works and she's just relieved to hear Sora is fine and she didn't know about the second time the worlds were in danger, but, /c'mon/. Aqua has gone through like eleven years of hell and doesn't cry once but she cries when she hears that the Keyblade wielder she already knew about a year ago was still saving the worlds? C'mon, now.

Spoiler Show

In the same game where Blank Points was even added, we see Aqua come across Castle of Dreams in the darkness in the first place. By the time Blank Points happens, she KNOWS something had gone wrong, we just don't know how she dealt with it or how much she knew. She KNEW something had gone wrong by the time she met Ansem. 0.2 does not create a contradiction with this, it reinforces established events loose facts. If that takes away the emotional impact for you, it's because you possibly didn't realize she would have known something definitely happened in the Realm of Light at least once. The only 'contradiction' or strangeness in the Blank Points scene now is her not coming to the conclusion that it could have been Sora or Riku, not Ven and Terra.

I personally felt impacted by her hearing she'd finally be saved by that boy she only met once, didn't pass the power of the keyblade onto, and heard about in passing from Mickey. In fact, we don't know all of what Ansem told her or what Ansem knows about Sora. He could have told her that Sora and Ven have a special connection and that Sora is the key to waking up her friend too. (I think he just said Sora's name, but again, who knows)

When I used to imagine what BbSv2, I figured maybe Aqua was actually the one who sent the worlds from the darkness back to light somehow, but I'm glad that wasn't the case. That'd be a little.... OP of her. Anyway, I've rewatched Blank Points, BbSv2 trailer, and 0.2 in total a few times now in light of these new editions. If we want to talk about contradictions, why wouldn't Aqua know that something is going on in the Realm of Light if she obviously came across Castle of Dreams in the dark realm? Did Aqua just assume it was all a broken illusion playing tricks on her? Did she conclude every world has a dark counterpart? When Blank Points rolls around, she doesn't seem to know if anything at all is wrong in the Realm of Light.

Either Aqua assumed the Castle of Dreams she saw was no big deal, OR she was informed/figured out that something was going wrong, but someone fixed it and therefore, the trouble that was going on was no more. You can't really make an entire game of Aqua visiting places and thinking "Man, this is a really weird hallucination. But I'm sure nothing strange is going on in the Realm of Light while I'm away and I'll be surprised when someone mentions there was trouble there."

There are some things in 0.2 I think they could have left out. Did Mickey really have to lose his shirt? You were redoing the scene anyway, I think Mickey having his shirt on would have been ok. We understand why it was missing in the first game. It's ok Nomura.

I agree Aqua and Mickey could have parted ways before the ending of KH1 came to pass, but I guess they wanted to give Riku a personal reason to go save her when he didn't really need much of a personal reason to.

The "May your heart be your guiding key", I think it's clever. But having Goofy say it and then inserting the joke that maybe he imagined it was a bitttt eye rolling. It would have been a little more forgivable if Yen Sid told that to Sora as they were departing and then maybe Goofy repeats it to remind Sora.

Nomura's actual problem is trying to connect things that he really doesn't have to. Aqua was connected to Sora and Riku well enough, but he does what he always does with popular characters. He inserts them in places they probably shouldn't be. I don't mind that Aqua was there at the end on Destiny Islands. I don't even mind that she was nearby when Riku was nearby, but it's still a bit much. The series would be better off if Nomura didn't try connected every little thing and twisting facts, leaving a little mystery in it all, but I digress.

Just the oneeeee thing I don't agree with is that it contradicts Blank Points or makes it less impactful.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Spoiler Show

In the same game where Blank Points was even added, we see Aqua come across Castle of Dreams in the darkness in the first place. By the time Blank Points happens, she KNOWS something had gone wrong, we just don't know how she dealt with it or how much she knew. She KNEW something had gone wrong by the time she met Ansem. 0.2 does not create a contradiction with this, it reinforces established events loose facts. If that takes away the emotional impact for you, it's because you possibly didn't realize she would have known something definitely happened in the Realm of Light at least once. The only 'contradiction' or strangeness in the Blank Points scene now is her not coming to the conclusion that it could have been Sora or Riku, not Ven and Terra.

I personally felt impacted by her hearing she'd finally be saved by that boy she only met once, didn't pass the power of the keyblade onto, and heard about in passing from Mickey. In fact, we don't know all of what Ansem told her or what Ansem knows about Sora. He could have told her that Sora and Ven have a special connection and that Sora is the key to waking up her friend too. (I think he just said Sora's name, but again, who knows)

When I used to imagine what BbSv2, I figured maybe Aqua was actually the one who sent the worlds from the darkness back to light somehow, but I'm glad that wasn't the case. That'd be a little.... OP of her. Anyway, I've rewatched Blank Points, BbSv2 trailer, and 0.2 in total a few times now in light of these new editions. If we want to talk about contradictions, why wouldn't Aqua know that something is going on in the Realm of Light if she obviously came across Castle of Dreams in the dark realm? Did Aqua just assume it was all a broken illusion playing tricks on her? Did she conclude every world has a dark counterpart? When Blank Points rolls around, she doesn't seem to know if anything at all is wrong in the Realm of Light.

Either Aqua assumed the Castle of Dreams she saw was no big deal, OR she was informed/figured out that something was going wrong, but someone fixed it and therefore, the trouble that was going on was no more. You can't really make an entire game of Aqua visiting places and thinking "Man, this is a really weird hallucination. But I'm sure nothing strange is going on in the Realm of Light while I'm away and I'll be surprised when someone mentions there was trouble there."

There are some things in 0.2 I think they could have left out. Did Mickey really have to lose his shirt? You were redoing the scene anyway, I think Mickey having his shirt on would have been ok. We understand why it was missing in the first game. It's ok Nomura.

I agree Aqua and Mickey could have parted ways before the ending of KH1 came to pass, but I guess they wanted to give Riku a personal reason to go save her when he didn't really need much of a personal reason to.

The "May your heart be your guiding key", I think it's clever. But having Goofy say it and then inserting the joke that maybe he imagined it was a bitttt eye rolling. It would have been a little more forgivable if Yen Sid told that to Sora as they were departing and then maybe Goofy repeats it to remind Sora.

Nomura's actual problem is trying to connect things that he really doesn't have to. Aqua was connected to Sora and Riku well enough, but he does what he always does with popular characters. He inserts them in places they probably shouldn't be. I don't mind that Aqua was there at the end on Destiny Islands. I don't even mind that she was nearby when Riku was nearby, but it's still a bit much. The series would be better off if Nomura didn't try connected every little thing and twisting facts, leaving a little mystery in it all, but I digress.

Just the oneeeee thing I don't agree with is that it contradicts Blank Points or makes it less impactful.

That was truly an interesting read and I agree with most of it. ;D

 

[Zettaflare]

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I'm so happy that Sora has another chance to gain the master title. I never thought he would have another opportunity to become one and now we know it might happen once he gets his KH3 outfit after Olympus

 

[Deleted member]

In the same game where Blank Points was even added, we see Aqua come across Castle of Dreams in the darkness in the first place.

Technically Blank Points came out before the Secret Episode (The Secret Episode, where Aqua comes across CoD was added in the Final Mix).

Anyway, I'm not really looking to debate any of this. I do find that 0.2 undercuts Blank Points. If you don't, well, I'm happy for you.

 

[Chaser]

I'm so relieved they didn't share block the story section of the menu. I love my new desktop background

Spoiler Show

 

[Deleted member]

I didn't really want to make a thread for this, since it's kind of just an off the cuff idea, but I'm thinking that the MoM is going to be revealed as the traitor.

"the traitor bears the sigil"

I think that MoM, when he takes off his hood, is going to have a giant X-shaped scar from where he took out his eye, and this is going to be the sigil.

Anyway, that's just my thought right now lol

 

[towerofpowerx]

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Ok, after sifting through these posts, there are a few theories I'd like to throw out that might not have been mentioned. Here's the first:

Spoiler Show

All this talk about KKD, and why it is on Destiny Islands in the RoD? First, is it possible that both KK & KKD are the two halves of the proto X-Blade forged by Ventus and Vanitas? Now, before you say, "but it was destroyed!" let's not forget, this is Kingdom Hearts. Nothing and/or no one is ever gone for good *cough, Xion, cough*. And as shown by Eraqus w/Aqua, Keyblades can still exist and be used even if their original wielder has been deposed. So, let's assume the X-Blade did survive, in some shape or form. Ventus was the light half of the blade i.e. KK. With his heart inside of Sora, it makes perfect sense for KK to appear before Sora. As for KKD, these two blades were two halves of one whole. Where one goes, so does the other. However, Vanitas no longer exists. So, as there was nowhere for it to go, KKD was left behind on Destiny Islands. Or rather, the dark side of Destiny Islands. Because, really, what better place for a dark Keyblade than the RoD?

Now, I'll even devil's advocate myself here.......what if you don't buy that the proto X-Blade somehow survived? What if it really was completely, utterly destroyed? Then, how about this: Each Keyblade wielder has a Keyblade made for them and them alone. As demonstrated by Riku and Lea, it is possible for the Keyblade that appears to show characteristics that are a reflection of aspects of the wielder themselves i.e. Way to the Dawn resembling Soul Eater, and Lea's Keyblade clearly showing someone with an affinity for fire. In Sora's case, he has something much better: Ventus. Even if it was only for a short time, Ventus was a part of the X-Blade. As such, Ventus's heart is like a living "blueprint" of the X-Blade itself. And as displayed by Vanitas and Roxas's appearance, Ventus and Sora clearly have an impact on each other. Well then, when Sora's Keyblade appeared before him, Ventus's influence caused this new Keyblade to manifest as an exact copy of the X-Blade, in appearance and power. But again, as Vanitas still did not exist, only the KK appeared to Sora, leaving the KKD to fall to darkness, as it were. These theories also debunk other Keyblades having their own counterparts, as this is a characteristic exclusive to the X-Blade.

In any case, whichever one you choose to believe, both of these theories neatly explain KKD's appearance at Destiny Islands in the RoD

 

[Sephiroth0812]

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Ok, after sifting through these posts, there are a few theories I'd like to throw out that might not have been mentioned. Here's the first:

Spoiler Show

All this talk about KKD, and why it is on Destiny Islands in the RoD? First, is it possible that both KK & KKD are the two halves of the proto X-Blade forged by Ventus and Vanitas? Now, before you say, "but it was destroyed!" let's not forget, this is Kingdom Hearts. Nothing and/or no one is ever gone for good *cough, Xion, cough*. And as shown by Eraqus w/Aqua, Keyblades can still exist and be used even if their original wielder has been deposed. So, let's assume the X-Blade did survive, in some shape or form. Ventus was the light half of the blade i.e. KK. With his heart inside of Sora, it makes perfect sense for KK to appear before Sora. As for KKD, these two blades were two halves of one whole. Where one goes, so does the other. However, Vanitas no longer exists. So, as there was nowhere for it to go, KKD was left behind on Destiny Islands. Or rather, the dark side of Destiny Islands. Because, really, what better place for a dark Keyblade than the RoD?

Now, I'll even devil's advocate myself here.......what if you don't buy that the proto X-Blade somehow survived? What if it really was completely, utterly destroyed? Then, how about this: Each Keyblade wielder has a Keyblade made for them and them alone. As demonstrated by Riku and Lea, it is possible for the Keyblade that appears to show characteristics that are a reflection of aspects of the wielder themselves i.e. Way to the Dawn resembling Soul Eater, and Lea's Keyblade clearly showing someone with an affinity for fire. In Sora's case, he has something much better: Ventus. Even if it was only for a short time, Ventus was a part of the X-Blade. As such, Ventus's heart is like a living "blueprint" of the X-Blade itself. And as displayed by Vanitas and Roxas's appearance, Ventus and Sora clearly have an impact on each other. Well then, when Sora's Keyblade appeared before him, Ventus's influence caused this new Keyblade to manifest as an exact copy of the X-Blade, in appearance and power. But again, as Vanitas still did not exist, only the KK appeared to Sora, leaving the KKD to fall to darkness, as it were. These theories also debunk other Keyblades having their own counterparts, as this is a characteristic exclusive to the X-Blade.

In any case, whichever one you choose to believe, both of these theories neatly explain KKD's appearance at Destiny Islands in the RoD

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I commend these theories for being very well thought out, however there is one fact you forgot to mention in them.

Spoiler Show

The Kingdom Key was not Sora's Keyblade from the start as Riku was the original intended wielder of it. Sora only got it in KH 1 at first because Riku became "unqualified" and more or less "took it" from Riku.
The KK didn't appear on Destiny Islands for Sora specifically, but for Riku.
Later at Hollow Bastion Riku easily manages to take KK back and it is not until their next confrontation that the KK abandons Riku and chooses Sora for good.

How does that go together with the above theories?

 

[towerofpowerx]

Spoiler Show

Ha, I knew I was forgetting something :redface: It does complicate things, but not completely. It really depends on how we believe Keyblades are made. My first theory might still apply, but it would rely on Ventus's connection to Terra, then Terra performing the inheritance ceremony for Riku, and then Sora's connection to Riku creating a "chain" for the KK to find it's way to Sora. Personally, I find the reason for my next theory more plausible. As far as I know, Nomura has never hammered out exactly how the "forging" process takes place, if that's even the right word for it. Lemme give it a shot: I think we can agree that Keylades are not actually, physically, forged, with a hammer and everything. With Keyblades materializing for their users instantly and all, it's pretty implausible for someone to hammer one out with no warning each time a new wielder pops up. Not to mention, the Keyblades "patterning" themselves after their new users at the same time. So, let's say that all new Keyblades start as, say, an incorporeal entity. Imagine a formless blade existing only as a "ball" of pure energy, each one waiting for a wielder to summon them for the first time. Once they do, the blade takes shape, and again, based on the user's characteristics.

So, taking that into account, it actually helps prove the validity of my second theory. I just forgot to include it the first time

 

[Zettaflare]

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you know, given the similarities between the MoM and Braig(missing eye, jovial and light hearted nature) I'm starting to think that Braig might want the master's eye for himself if he happens to have found out about its power from Xehanort.

 

[Grono]

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Ha, I knew I was forgetting something :redface: It does complicate things, but not completely. It really depends on how we believe Keyblades are made. My first theory might still apply, but it would rely on Ventus's connection to Terra, then Terra performing the inheritance ceremony for Riku, and then Sora's connection to Riku creating a "chain" for the KK to find it's way to Sora. Personally, I find the reason for my next theory more plausible. As far as I know, Nomura has never hammered out exactly how the "forging" process takes place, if that's even the right word for it. Lemme give it a shot: I think we can agree that Keylades are not actually, physically, forged, with a hammer and everything. With Keyblades materializing for their users instantly and all, it's pretty implausible for someone to hammer one out with no warning each time a new wielder pops up. Not to mention, the Keyblades "patterning" themselves after their new users at the same time. So, let's say that all new Keyblades start as, say, an incorporeal entity. Imagine a formless blade existing only as a "ball" of pure energy, each one waiting for a wielder to summon them for the first time. Once they do, the blade takes shape, and again, based on the user's characteristics.

So, taking that into account, it actually helps prove the validity of my second theory. I just forgot to include it the first time

Yeah, this sounds pretty plausible as to how they're formed. Especially in cases like Lea and Riku where they're formed around concepts unique to the individual, I'm pretty sure this is EXACTLY how one is created.

 

[The_Echo]

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On the topic of the traitor...

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Well, what if there isn't one? I think we've all wondered that maybe the traitor is an illusion.

However, the Lost Page identifies a traitor. So from the perspective of the Master's eye, a traitor is manifested.
What I'm wondering is... how much influence does Luxu have over No Name?

Looking at the way Luxu acts, it seems as though he isn't particularly confident in himself. One of his first concerns is "what about the others?"
What if Luxu thinks he's betraying his friends by following the mission he was given? Watching his friends hurt each other, their friendships falling apart, and he does nothing. No Name perceives this, and conveys to the Book that a traitor exists.

 

[towerofpowerx]

Yeah, this sounds pretty plausible as to how they're formed. Especially in cases like Lea and Riku where they're formed around concepts unique to the individual, I'm pretty sure this is EXACTLY how one is created.

I know, right? :smile: This idea of Keyblade creation would still hold water even with the weirder Keyblades that have appeared. Let's take a stab:

The Keyblade formed from the Princess's hearts in KH1. Like many things from KH1, it's hard to reconcile certain ideas and concepts with the general mythos that has evolved over the years, specifically because it was the first game and lots of things had yet to be clearly defined by Nomura, even to himself. But, even after fusing with Riku, Ansem SoD still could not summon a Keyblade, for whatever reason. He had to use the hearts of the six princesses to accomplish this. The princesses hearts, essentially, became a "proxy". A means to short-cut a way to summon a real Keyblade. Or at least, the formless energy equivalent. Afterwards, the princesses hearts joined with the blade itself. They had to, for without their hearts to "complete the circuit" as it were, (as well as keeping this "circuit" up and running after the fact) the blade would have, and eventually did, vanish without a trace. I guess we could call it a side-effect for using what was, in essence, an "illegal" Keyblade. Anyway, the form and power of this Keyblade would've still resulted from the influence of both Riku and Ansem SoD. Considering this Keyblade came with the exact power that Ansem SoD wanted it to have i.e. extracting people's hearts, it's either been influenced by the wielder, or that's one hell of a coincidence lol.

The Keyblade pulled out by Young Xehanort after being Stopga'd to fight Riku and Mickey in KHDDD. I don't know if what exactly happened there to allow Young Xehanort to move and summon a previously unknown Keyblade was ever explained by Nomura, but I've always had my own theory That being, since Master Xehanort's body had yet to fully materialize, he still did not possess a real body, and as such, still retained his ability to travel through time. So, he "traveled" to, and possessed, his younger self. Doing this gave his younger self the power to summon a Keyblade as well. And when he did, we essentially got this one, good look at the Keyblade Xehanort would've gotten as a lad, had he not taken up the Keyblade he has now. Or, maybe he did, and took up the dark Keyblade later, and never saw a reason to summon his old Keyblade after he got his dark Keyblade. That's the case with Mickey and his Star Seeker, after all (after he found the KKD). And, of course, Star Seeker is Mickey's own Keyblade that was forged just for him.

Though, on a side note, Mickey did give his Star Seeker to Sora. Keyblades usually teleport back to their wielder if taken by someone else, but this (as well as Sora getting Riku's Way to Dawn given to him to kick Xemnas's a** in their final battle) demonstrates that a Keyblade can be used by another wielder even if the original wielder is still alive. They just have to have permission :smile:

So, there you have it! KKD's presence at Destiny Islands explained, and a better post about Keyblade creation than even I expected lol. I pop by here almost every night, but rarely post. And even then, only when I'm pretty damn sure I'm right. This was fun :biggrin:

 

[Deleted member]

The Keyblade pulled out by Young Xehanort after being Stopga'd to fight Riku and Mickey in KHDDD. I don't know if what exactly happened there to allow Young Xehanort to move and summon a previously unknown Keyblade was ever explained by Nomura

He has explained it, if you're curious. Basically he said that MX's consciousness moved into YMX and the Keyblade he pulled out is MX's Keyblade just with a new keychain on it that is based on YMX. (Hence why it looks like a combination of No Name and.. well... No Name (the Keychain you get for defeating YMX in BBS)).

Mickey also didn't give Sora his Star Seeker (he summons it in Re:Coded, for one). What Sora has is a keychain based on Star Seeker. He never had his actual Keyblade. (Sora only possess two Keyblades -- his and Ven's. The rest are just keychains that change their form).

Also, in case anyone missed it, Nomura briefly talked about how MoM invented Keyblades:

- By the way, in this world that can be considered to be during “the time period spoken about in fairytales”, what sort of position is the X-blade in?


Nomura: The Master knows about its existence. Using the X-blade as a model, he creates his own Keyblades. Well, by create I don’t mean that in the physical sense, such as forging and tempering them, I mean more along the lines of pulling one out from the depths of a heart.

 

[Hirokey123]

Huh I feel that kind of description furthers the theory I've had about Kingdom Key for awhile now.

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I speculate the keyblade inherently exists because the heart does...like the X-blade exists as the counterpart to kingdom hearts as just sort of a natural thing. So it make sense that lesser hearts, aka regular hearts, had their own blade counterpart they could manifest. With every blade differing based on the heart, and since Kingdom Hearts is sort of the ultimate heart and a union of all hearts it possesses the biggest most true blade counterpart, the X-blade which fittingly looks like a fusion.

With regular people I expect it works that the power the ceremony grants lets you call out your heart's keyblade, your hearts counterpart, something that has been growing inside of you since you were first born and that's why the keyblade when summoned takes on a form reflective of the current you. I also think that's why people need to have a certain level of strength, because if you think of the keyblade's forming being in direct relationship to your strength then what that means is a weak heart has yet to fully form a keyblade. Thus the theory postulates that the power doesn't create a keyblade, it merely lets you draw out the keyblade that already exists within your heart but if your heart isn't strong enough then there isn't simply any keyblade TO draw out yet. Which ties back into Nomura saying a long time ago that there is a keyblade for everyone worth of wielding one. It also wouldn't be the only thing we know fully forms only over time, heart stations are another as we saw Sora's heart station in BBS and it's doesn't have a picture of him which shows he's still too young for his heart to have a defined sense of identity, and instead judging by the pictures he is in a very standard time of toddler development where they are starting to figure out stuff they like and has meaning them using that as the building blocks for what will eventually be their identity.

Which brings me to the Kingdom Key....I speculate that Riku's heart at the start of KH1 wasn't strong enough to have fully formed a keyblade. But something unintentional happened, Sora got sucked into Riku's darkness and made a connection to the light in Riku's heart...which never made a lot of sense but whatever it is what happened that much is confirmed. So what happens when hearts connect? Well they can share power thus I figure what happened is when Sora and Riku connected in this special manner for a brief moment the power of their hearts were one, and so Sora's strength sort of filled in the gaps in Riku's keyblade letting it finish forming. Thus that keyblade did form in Riku's heart but only because Sora's strength was added to the mix. And since Sora's strength was the key to making it manifest the keyblade stayed with Sora and took on a form based on Sora's heart instead of Riku's, but since Riku had the power he was able to call the keyblade to him allowing him to take it from Sora since he was marked as a true chosen one. Meanwhile Ventus and Vanitas joined together but the thing was Sora was already sitting in the spot where Vanitas once belonged, that connection already made Vanitas look like Sora. So when Vanitas and Ventus merged together Sora sort of got even more in the way and made their X-blade blades take on the form of what Sora's keyblade would be, just like Vanitas took on the face of what Sora WOULD eventually look like.

But perhaps we can take this further...the X-blade is born of light and dark yet for all we know kingdom hearts was nothing but pure light...which probably means that kingdom hearts was never pure light and does in fact have a darkness in it somewhere. However more importantly if the X-blade require light and dark would it not stand to reason the copy cat keyblades would also require the same. Keyblade may only require a single heart but I bet you keyblades require a single heart that contains both light AND darkness. Which may then explain Kairi, it could be because her heart is pure light she alone is fundamentally unable to form a keyblade. Or she was until Riku reached down to help her, with a friendly reminder Riku at this time was buried in the darkness of his heart cause him to look like Ansem, when Kairi's heart shone bright with determination to reach Sora and that met with the powerful darkness pervading Riku then Kairi finally had all the necessary components for her keyblade to form and BOOM Kairi's keyblade finally manifests. But it manifests in Riku because for that instance at least Riku's heart the strong of the two, of course Riku can recognize immediately whose keyblade that must belong to and so he hands it back to Kairi.