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Predestination - Is God in control of our actions/our salvation?



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Camilo101

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(imma try to make a more detailed response later with support but geez i'm hella busy right now)

where do you all get the concept of free will from? i know it sounds like a wonderful concept, but it seems in complete contradiction with God being the master of everything, creator and controller of all?

why can we attribute the good things in life to God (cures for diseases, the great people in our life, technology that helps the world advance) but not the bad things (diseases themselves, war, disaster)? didn't God himself cause the Flood or does the story say He let the Devil do it? did the Devil single-handedly destroy everything that Job had (book of Job) or did he first have to ask for God's permission, did God say you can do THIS (one option) but no more (not several options)?

is there a single instance in the Bible where God is surprised at what humanity is doing, or his chosen people or whoever he's talking about. if God had it planned at least from Genesis (when God curses the serpent in chapter 2 i think) that Jesus would come, then how can anyone say that he did not control every exact aspect of everyone's life to ensure that he would make it into the world? what if Abraham never had children? what if David had never become King? what if Mary said she didn't want to have a baby?

this isn't God saying, "I'll figure out when I can get my plan to work. I'll do it whenever humanity decides to do what I want them to do" this is God saying, "This is the plan, this is how it's gonna happen."

and yes, that's my short answer XD lol.

Oh I see good point. But it's true, God has a plan for all of us, although we don't always follow it. Every person was created with a purpose, but that purpose is not always known or fulfilled. And in the case of the flood, God caused the flood and he directly told Noah that he was going to do it and told him to build the ark so his family could live. And it could be assumed that he influenced the birth of Jesus, because the Bible says that the devil sent evil angels as men to mate with Jesus' ancestors to try and destroy the pure bloodline. But since Jesus came anyways, you could say God influenced it to happen.

As for Mary, I don't think abortion was around back then, and Mary was a devout Jew so she would listen to God. But really, if an angel told you in your dream God was gonna put the savior inside you, wouldn't *you* listen to him?
 

Forever Atlas

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Okay, I don't have much time to reply so I'll try make this as short and simple while still being thorough in answering your questions. In addition to what I said in my previous post:

(imma try to make a more detailed response later with support but geez i'm hella busy right now)

where do you all get the concept of free will from?

The Bible? :/

i know it sounds like a wonderful concept, but it seems in complete contradiction with God being the master of everything, creator

I see no contradiction there.

and controller of all?

This I don't know where that idea came from. I do not recall anything in the Bible saying God controls everything. While He could, doesn't say He does.

didn't God himself cause the Flood or does the story say He let the Devil do it?

Oh no, God caused the flood. That wasn't a bad thing. He gave people over 40 years to listen to Noah and hop up in the ark. They didn't listen, that's their fault. God was ridding the world at that time of the rampant violence and debauchery. He got rid of the bad at that time (although short lived). That's wasn't a bad thing. Unless of course you were one of the people who ignored the pleadings for over 40 years.

did the Devil single-handedly destroy everything that Job had (book of Job) or did he first have to ask for God's permission, did God say you can do THIS (one option) but no more (not several options)?

Yeah, Satan did cause all those bad things to happen to Job.

is there a single instance in the Bible where God is surprised at what humanity is doing, or his chosen people or whoever he's talking about.

If you read what I posted on the previous page you would see the explanation for that.

if God had it planned at least from Genesis (when God curses the serpent in chapter 2 i think) that Jesus would come, then how can anyone say that he did not control every exact aspect of everyone's life to ensure that he would make it into the world? what if Abraham never had children? what if David had never become King? what if Mary said she didn't want to have a baby?

God did control certain aspects to make sure His will was accomplished. Note this (once again going along with what I posted on the previous page):

The Things Foreknown and Foreordained. Throughout the Bible record, God’s exercise of foreknowledge and foreordination is consistently tied in with his own purposes and will. “To purpose” means to set something before oneself as an aim or an object to be attained. (The Greek word pro′the·sis, translated “purpose,” means, literally, “something placed or set forth before.”) Since God’s purposes are certain of accomplishment, he can foreknow the results, the ultimate realization of his purposes, and can foreordain them as well as the steps he may see fit to take to accomplish them. (Isa 14:24-27) Thus, Jehovah is spoken of as ‘forming’ or ‘fashioning’ (from the Hebrew ya·tsar′, related to the word for “potter” [Jer 18:4]) his purpose concerning future events or actions. (2Ki 19:25; Isa 46:11; compare Isa 45:9-13,*18.) As the Great Potter, God “operates all things according to the way his will counsels,” in harmony with his purpose (Eph 1:11), and “makes all his works cooperate together” for the good of those loving him. (Ro 8:28) It is, therefore, specifically in connection with his own foreordained purposes that God tells “from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done.”—Isa 46:9-13.

When God created the first human pair they were perfect, and God could look upon the result of all his creative work and find it “very good.” (Ge 1:26,*31; De 32:4) Instead of distrustfully concerning himself with what the human pair’s future actions would be, the record says that he “proceeded to rest.” (Ge 2:2) He could do so since, by virtue of his almightiness and his supreme wisdom, no future action, circumstance, or contingency could possibly present an insurmountable obstacle or an irremediable problem to block the realization of his sovereign purpose. (2Ch 20:6; Isa 14:27; Da 4:35) There is, therefore, no Scriptural basis for the argument of predestinarianism that for God to refrain from exercising his powers of foreknowledge in this way would jeopardize God’s purposes, making them “always liable to be broken through want of foresight, and [that] he must be continually putting his system to rights, as it gets out of order, through the contingence of the actions of moral agents.” Nor would this selective exercise of foresight give his creatures the power to “break [God’s] measures, make him continually to change his mind, subject him to vexation, and bring him into confusion,” as predestinarians claim. (M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia, 1894, Vol. VIII, p. 556) If even God’s earthly servants have no real need to be “anxious about the next day,” it follows that their Creator, to whom mighty nations are as “a drop from a bucket,” neither had nor has such anxiety.—Mt 6:34; Isa 40:15.

Concerning classes of persons. Cases are also presented in which God did foreknow the course that certain groups, nations, or the majority of mankind would take, and thus he foretold the basic course of their future actions and foreordained what corresponding action he would take regarding them. However, such foreknowledge or foreordination does not deprive the individuals within such collective groups or divisions of mankind of exercising free choice as to the particular course they will follow. This can be seen from the following examples:

Prior to the Flood of Noah’s day, Jehovah announced his purpose to bring about this act of destruction, resulting in loss of human as well as animal life. The Biblical account shows, however, that such divine determination was made after the conditions developed that called for such action, including violence and other badness. Additionally, God, who is able to “know the heart of the sons of mankind,” made examination and found that “every inclination of the thoughts of [mankind’s] heart was only bad all the time.” (2Ch 6:30; Ge 6:5) Yet individuals, Noah and his family, gained God’s favor and escaped destruction.—Ge 6:7,*8; 7:1.

Similarly, although God gave the nation of Israel the opportunity to become “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” by keeping his covenant, yet some 40 years later, when the nation was at the borders of the Promised Land, Jehovah foretold that they would break his covenant and, as a nation, would be forsaken by him. This foreknowledge was not without prior basis, however, as national insubordination and rebellion already had been revealed. Hence, God said: “For I well know their inclination that they are developing today before I bring them into the land about which I have sworn.” (Ex 19:6; De 31:16-18,*21; Ps 81:10-13) The results to which such manifest inclination would now lead in the way of increased wickedness could be foreknown by God without its making him responsible for such conditions, even as one’s foreknowing that a certain structure built of inferior materials and with shoddy workmanship will deteriorate does not make that one responsible for such deterioration. The divine rule governs that ‘what is sown is what will be reaped.’ (Ga 6:7-9; compare Ho 10:12,*13.) Certain prophets delivered prophetic warnings of God’s foreordained expressions of judgment, all of which had basis in already existing conditions and heart attitudes. (Ps 7:8,*9; Pr 11:19; Jer 11:20) Here again, however, individuals could and did respond to God’s counsel, reproof, and warnings and so merited his favor.—Jer 21:8,*9; Eze 33:1-20.

God’s Son, who also could read the hearts of men (Mt 9:4; Mr 2:8; Joh 2:24,*25), was divinely endowed with powers of foreknowledge and foretold future conditions, events, and expressions of divine judgment. He foretold the judgment of Gehenna for the scribes and Pharisees as a class (Mt 23:15,*33) but did not say thereby that each individual Pharisee or scribe was foredoomed to destruction, as the case of the apostle Paul shows. (Ac 26:4,*5) Jesus predicted woes for unrepentant Jerusalem and other cities, but he did not indicate that his Father had foreordained that each individual of those cities should so suffer. (Mt 11:20-23; Lu 19:41-44; 21:20,*21) He also foreknew what mankind’s inclination and heart attitude would lead to and foretold the conditions that would have developed among mankind by the time of “the conclusion of the system of things,” as well as the outworkings of God’s own purposes. (Mt 24:3, 7-14, 21,*22) Jesus’ apostles likewise declared prophecies manifesting God’s foreknowledge of certain classes, such as the “antichrist” (1Jo 2:18,*19; 2Jo 7), and also the end to which such classes are foreordained.—2Th 2:3-12; 2Pe 2:1-3; Jude 4.

Concerning individuals. In addition to foreknowledge concerning classes, certain individuals are specifically involved in divine forecasts. These include Esau and Jacob (mentioned earlier), the Pharaoh of the Exodus, Samson, Solomon, Josiah, Jeremiah, Cyrus, John the Baptizer, Judas Iscariot, and God’s own Son Jesus.

In the cases of Samson, Jeremiah, and John the Baptizer, Jehovah exercised foreknowledge prior to their birth. This foreknowledge, however, did not specify what their final destiny would be. Rather, on the basis of such foreknowledge, Jehovah foreordained that Samson should live according to the Nazirite vow and should initiate the deliverance of Israel from the Philistines, that Jeremiah should serve as a prophet, and that John the Baptizer should do a preparatory work as a forerunner of the Messiah. (Jg 13:3-5; Jer 1:5; Lu 1:13-17) While highly favored by such privileges, this did not guarantee their gaining eternal salvation or even that they would remain faithful until death (although all three did). Thus, Jehovah foretold that one of David’s many sons would be named Solomon and he foreordained that Solomon would be used to build the temple. (2Sa 7:12,*13; 1Ki 6:12; 1Ch 22:6-19) However, though favored in this way and even privileged to write certain books of the Holy Scriptures, Solomon nevertheless fell into apostasy in his later years.—1Ki 11:4, 9-11.

Likewise with Esau and Jacob, God’s foreknowledge did not fix their eternal destinies but, rather, determined, or foreordained, which of the national groups descending from the two sons would gain a dominant position over the other. (Ge 25:23-26) This foreseen dominance also pointed to the gaining of the right of the firstborn by Jacob, a right that brought along with it the privilege of being in the line of descent through which the Abrahamic “seed” would come. (Ge 27:29; 28:13,*14) By this means Jehovah God made clear that his choice of individuals for certain uses is not bound by the usual customs or procedures conforming to men’s expectations. Nor are divinely assigned privileges to be dispensed solely on the basis of works, which might allow a person to feel he has ‘earned the right’ to such privileges and that they are ‘owed to him.’ The apostle Paul stressed this point in showing why God, by undeserved kindness, could grant to the Gentile nations privileges once seemingly reserved for Israel.—Ro 9:1-6, 10-13, 30-32.

Paul’s quotations concerning Jehovah’s ‘love for Jacob [Israel] and his hatred for Esau [Edom]’ comes from Malachi 1:2,*3, written long after Jacob and Esau’s time. So the Bible does not necessarily say that Jehovah held such opinion of the twins before their birth. It is a scientifically established fact that much of a child’s general disposition and temperament is determined at the time of conception because of the genetic factors contributed by each parent. That God can see such factors is self-evident; David speaks of Jehovah as seeing “even the embryo of me.” (Ps 139:14-16; see also Ec 11:5.) To what extent such divine insight affected Jehovah’s foreordination concerning the two boys cannot be said, but at any rate, his choice of Jacob over Esau did not of itself doom Esau or his descendants, the Edomites, to destruction. Even individuals from among the accursed Canaanites gained the privilege of association with God’s covenant people and received blessings. (Ge 9:25-27; Jos 9:27; see CANAAN, CANAANITE No. 2.) The “change of mind” that Esau earnestly sought with tears, however, was only an unsuccessful attempt to change his father Isaac’s decision that the firstborn’s special blessing should remain entirely with Jacob. Hence, this indicated no repentance before God on Esau’s part as to his materialistic attitude.—Ge 27:32-34; Heb 12:16,*17.

Jehovah’s prophecy concerning Josiah called for some descendant of David to be so named, and it foretold his acting against false worship in the city of Bethel. (1Ki 13:1,*2) Over three centuries later a king so named fulfilled this prophecy. (2Ki 22:1; 23:15,*16) On the other hand, he failed to heed “the words of Necho from the mouth of God,” and this led to his being killed. (2Ch 35:20-24) Hence, while foreknown by God and foreordained to do a particular work, Josiah was still a free moral agent able to choose to heed or disregard advice.

Similarly, Jehovah foretold nearly two centuries beforehand that he would use a conqueror named Cyrus to effect the release of the Jews from Babylon. (Isa 44:26-28; 45:1-6) But the Persian to whom that name eventually was given in fulfillment of divine prophecy is not stated in the Bible to have become a genuine worshiper of Jehovah, and secular history shows him continuing his worship of false gods.

These cases of foreknowledge prior to the individual’s birth thus do not conflict with God’s revealed qualities and announced standards. Nor is there any indication that God coerced the individuals to act against their own will. In the cases of Pharaoh, Judas Iscariot, and God’s own Son, there is no evidence that Jehovah’s foreknowledge was exercised prior to the person’s coming into existence. Within these individual cases certain principles are illustrated, bearing on God’s foreknowledge and foreordination.

One such principle is God’s testing of individuals by causing or allowing certain circumstances or events, or by causing such individuals to hear his inspired messages, the result being that they are obliged to exercise their free choice to make a decision and thus reveal a definite heart attitude, read by Jehovah. (Pr 15:11; 1Pe 1:6,*7; Heb 4:12,*13) According to the way the individuals respond, God can also mold them in the course they have selected of their own volition. (1Ch 28:9; Ps 33:13-15; 139:1-4, 23,*24) Thus, “the heart of earthling man” first inclines toward a certain way before Jehovah does the directing of the steps of such a one. (Pr 16:9; Ps 51:10) Under testing, one’s heart condition can become fixed, either hardened in unrighteousness and rebellion or made firm in unbreakable devotion to Jehovah God and the doing of his will. (Job 2:3-10; Jer 18:11,*12; Ro 2:4-11; Heb 3:7-10, 12-15) Having reached such a point of his own choice, the end result of the individual’s course can now be foreknown and foretold with no injustice and no violation of man’s free moral agency.—Compare Job 34:10-12.

The case of faithful Abraham, already discussed, illustrates these principles. A contrasting case is that of the unresponsive Pharaoh of the Exodus. Jehovah foreknew that Pharaoh would refuse permission for the Israelites to leave “except by a strong hand” (Ex 3:19,*20), and he foreordained the plague resulting in the death of the firstborn. (Ex 4:22,*23) The apostle Paul’s discussion of God’s dealings with Pharaoh is often incorrectly understood to mean that God arbitrarily hardens the heart of individuals according to his foreordained purpose, without regard for the individual’s prior inclination, or heart attitude. (Ro 9:14-18) Likewise, according to many translations, God advised Moses that he would “harden [Pharaoh’s] heart.” (Ex 4:21; compare Ex 9:12; 10:1,*27.) However, some translations render the Hebrew account to read that Jehovah “let [Pharaoh’s] heart wax bold” (Ro); “let [Pharaoh’s] heart become obstinate.” (NW) In support of such rendering, the appendix to Rotherham’s translation shows that in Hebrew the occasion or permission of an event is often presented as if it were the cause of the event, and that “even positive commands are occasionally to be accepted as meaning no more than permission.” Thus at Exodus 1:17 the original Hebrew text literally says that the midwives “caused the male children to live,” whereas in reality they permitted them to live by refraining from putting them to death. After quoting Hebrew scholars M.*M. Kalisch, H.*F. W.*Gesenius, and B.*Davies in support, Rotherham states that the Hebrew sense of the texts involving Pharaoh is that “God permitted Pharaoh to harden his own heart—spared him—gave him the opportunity, the occasion, of working out the wickedness that was in him. That is all.”—The Emphasised Bible, appendix, p. 919; compare Isa 10:5-7.

Corroborating this understanding is the fact that the record definitely shows that Pharaoh himself “hardened his heart.” (Ex 8:15,*32, KJ; “made his heart unresponsive,” NW) He thus exercised his own will and followed his own stubborn inclination, the results of which inclination Jehovah accurately foresaw and predicted. The repeated opportunities given him by Jehovah obliged Pharaoh to make decisions, and in doing so he became hardened in his attitude. (Compare Ec 8:11,*12.) As the apostle Paul shows by quoting Exodus 9:16, Jehovah allowed the matter to develop in this way to the full length of ten plagues in order to make manifest his own power and cause his name to be made known earth wide.—Ro 9:17,*18.

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Foreordination of the Messiah. Jehovah God foreknew and foretold the Messiah’s sufferings, the death he would undergo, and his subsequent resurrection. (Ac 2:22, 23, 30,*31; 3:18; 1Pe 1:10,*11) The realization of things determined by God’s exercise of such foreknowledge depended in part upon God’s own exercise of power and in part upon the actions of men. (Ac 4:27,*28) Such men, however, willingly allowed themselves to be overreached by God’s Adversary, Satan the Devil. (Joh 8:42-44; Ac 7:51-54) Hence, even as Christians in Paul’s day were “not ignorant of [Satan’s] designs,” God foresaw the wicked desires and methods the Devil would devise against Jesus Christ, God’s Anointed One. (2Co 2:11) Obviously, God’s power could also thwart or even block any attacks or attempts upon the Messiah that did not conform to the manner or time prophesied.—Compare Mt 16:21; Lu 4:28-30; 9:51; Joh 7:1, 6-8; 8:59.

The apostle Peter’s statement that Christ, as the sacrificial Lamb of God, was “foreknown before the founding [form of Greek ka·ta·bo·le′] of the world [ko′smou]” is construed by advocates of predestinarianism to mean that God exercised such foreknowledge before mankind’s creation. (1Pe 1:19,*20) The Greek word ka·ta·bo·le′, translated “founding,” literally means “a throwing down” and can refer to the ‘conceiving of seed,’ as at Hebrews 11:11. While there was “the founding” of a world of mankind when God created the first human pair, as is shown at Hebrews 4:3,*4, that pair thereafter forfeited their position as children of God. (Ge 3:22-24; Ro 5:12) Yet, by God’s undeserved kindness, they were allowed to conceive seed and produce offspring, one of whom is specifically shown in the Bible to have gained God’s favor and placed himself in position for redemption and salvation, namely, Abel. (Ge 4:1,*2; Heb 11:4) It is noteworthy that at Luke 11:49-51 Jesus refers to “the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world” and parallels this with the words “from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah.” Thus, Abel is connected by Jesus with “the founding of the world.”

The Messiah, or Christ, was to be the promised Seed through whom all righteous persons of all the families of the earth would be blessed. (Ga 3:8,*14) The first mention of such “seed” came after the rebellion in Eden had already been initiated, but prior to the birth of Abel. (Ge 3:15) This was some 4,000 years before the revelation of “the sacred secret” was made by the clear identification of that Messianic “seed.” Hence, it was, indeed, “kept in silence for long-lasting times.”—Ro 16:25-27; Eph 1:8-10; 3:4-11.

In his due time Jehovah God assigned his own firstborn Son to fulfill the prophesied role of the “seed” and become the Messiah. There is nothing to show that that Son was “predestined” to such a role even before his creation or before rebellion broke out in Eden. God’s eventual selection of him as the one charged with fulfilling the prophecies likewise was not made without prior basis. The period of intimate association between God and his Son previous to the Son’s being sent to earth undoubtedly resulted in Jehovah’s ‘knowing’ his Son to an extent that He could be certain of his Son’s faithful fulfillment of the prophetic promises and pictures.—Compare Ro 15:5; Php 2:5-8; Mt 11:27; Joh 10:14,*15; see JESUS CHRIST (Tested and Perfected).


this isn't God saying, "I'll figure out when I can get my plan to work. I'll do it whenever humanity decides to do what I want them to do" this is God saying, "This is the plan, this is how it's gonna happen."

This is where a lot of people get mixed up. God has a purpose. Not a plan. There's a significant difference there.
 

Fractured_Heart628

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Yes, I think God is in charge of our destiny. But, he leaves some stuff up to us to decide on what we are going to do with our lives and rather we choose him. That's just my opion, though.
 

Dogenzaka

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Killing is easy once you forget the taste of sugar
is he in control of our salvation, whether we accept him or not?
God no messy with free-willy.
Otherwise, the action of loving loses its meaning.

Humanity loves the darkness.

/thread

Is there any chance he might occasionally try to sway us back on track, as an attempt to help us? I kind of feel like that was what happened with me recently, seeing how I've been strongly atheist until kind of recently, when I took the small bible in my safe, which I generally used to keep things from moving/ couldn't bring myself to dispose of after stumbling upon it years ago. Truthfully though, I'm not one to throw out any book. The closest I'll come is donating it to the local library, like with the To Kill a Mockingbird book I got from class (after we finished reading it) years ago and a few others.

Absolutely, otherwise I never would have become a Christian.

Revelation 3:15-20
(15) “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. (16) So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (17) Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— (18) I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. (19) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. (20) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me
 
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D∆NTE

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Teiku, if what youre saying is true then I will not enjoy life as much as I am now. It's like saying, hey, God controls everything you do and say, you never think independently. So, what's the point of life.

Teiku 5 said:
we give credit to him for all the good things that happen: cures for diseases, happiness in our lives, etc. but what about the bad things: wars, violence, terrorists, diseases themselves. isn't it logical to assume he caused them?

My Dad always says that God does things for a reason. So, yes, I think that he is the one that created diseases and or violence. But, he may have created those things so that we can adapt and get stronger mentally and physically.
 

_EX

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Im just going to skip past all your posts and say my opinion.

I have thought alot about predestination. I did that mainly because I wanted to know whether or not it was worth me living a pure (by Christian standards) life. I wanted to believe in predestination so I could go around and do whatever I wanted and not feel bad because I wouldve known i couldnt have done anything to change where I ended up.
It was at that point I realised that I would be changing where I ended up. By choosing to do all those sinful thing, I was controlling my outcome.

So I dont believe in predestination. I think God knows where we are going to end up, but that he doesnt force us to do anything we dont choose ourselves. I think God just put us in our lives and let us run free. He knows what we will do but he didnt control us to do it.
 

Gildragon

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If you had a medium level of education in the Bible you would see how your question does not apply.

If I wanted to I could give you the answer to your question (which implies you believe the WRONG answer BTW) but it wouldn't be on topic.


We aren't trying to talk about how God would act if he is omniscient (or whatever you wanna call it)

but its more the question of free will in this case.
 

Camilo101

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How is this discussion still going on? Hasn't it already been made clear that although God knows all things and what's to come, he doesn't absolutely control our destinies? He just knows what will happen to us, and all he can do for us is hope that we make the right decisions. However, if we pray to him for good things and read his word, naturally he would not turn us down. So in a way that is how he might control our destinies (but it really is our choice to tap into his blessings so he really didn't control it).
 

_EX

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How is this discussion still going on? Hasn't it already been made clear that although God knows all things and what's to come, he doesn't absolutely control our destinies?

People do not always agree in the matters of faith. If everyone agreed with this, we wouldnt need this thread. Until that happens, people will want to debate it.
 
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