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Predestination - Is God in control of our actions/our salvation?



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Teiku 5

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so i've talking about this with Gil and Nevermore over something that came up in another thread and i was just wondering what everyone else thinks. hopefully there'll be some people that understand my side so i won't have to reply to every post. anyways, here it goes.

if God is omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscience (over all of time) then is he in control of everything? literally, EVERYTHING. the good, the bad, the ugly, even the "unimportant."

we give credit to him for all the good things that happen: cures for diseases, happiness in our lives, etc. but what about the bad things: wars, violence, terrorists, diseases themselves. isn't it logical to assume he caused them?

i'll expand on my point later but for know...

is God in control of everything?
a logical extension of that question....is he in control of our salvation, whether we accept him or not?


if you're not Christian, than this doesn't even apply to you, so why tell me about how you don't believe in God so you think that the topic is stupid? if you want to contribute than contribute, if not please don't bother.
 
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SilverJ-17

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I don't think so. I think it's more of a free will thing. Whether you're a sinner that never repents, a righteous person who sins, or whatever, it's pretty much all up to you. As for group I'm apart of, I'm not sure what I am. I act the way I do because science and logic has always been my favorite two areas... and I tend to be a sarcastic person. (I need to fix that, yes?) Honestly, if God was in control, then wouldn't I either be a church-goer or completely atheist and say.. not someone considering it, but being hypocritical because I see too many so called religious people act like idiots (especially on this site.. though most of real negative ones tend to be trolls)?

Ugh.. sorry about the annoying run on sentence and possibly sorry for even posting, despite being one those agnostic/ atheist people.
 

Teiku 5

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I don't think so. I think it's more of a free will thing. Whether you're a sinner that never repents, a righteous person who sins, or whatever, it's pretty much all up to you. As for group I'm apart of, I'm not sure what I am. I act the way I do because science and logic has always been my favorite two areas... and I tend to be a sarcastic person. (I need to fix that, yes?) Honestly, if God was in control, then wouldn't I either be a church-goer or completely atheist and say.. not someone considering it, but being hypocritical because I see too many so called religious people act like idiots (especially on this site.. though most of real negative ones tend to be trolls)?

Ugh.. sorry about the annoying run on sentence and possibly sorry for even posting, despite being one those agnostic/ atheist people.

actually, i appreciate your post. i was referring more to the atheists/agnostics that would post "GOD ISN'T REAL SO WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER"

but what if it was God's will to be exactly who you are?

the idea behind my thinking is that if God is in control, knows everything, than wouldn't where you are right now be exactly where he wants you to be? what if that was his whole purpose for you (which in the end would glorify him)?

if he was in control, than how does he react to things that he doesn't want us to do? "Oh no, they've ruined the plan i had for them. they did this when they were supposed to do this. WHATEVER shall i do now?" wouldn't that be the contradiction everyone tries so hard to find in the Bible?

doesn't it make more sense that God has everything planned out and we're just following it and we'll get to the point where we will glorify Him, the main reason he created us? imo, 100% yes.
 

Ordeith

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I think you might have misinterpreted the concept of Predestination, Teiku...

You see, the actual** concept of Predestination is that God, being omniscient, fully knows your every action, along with your eternal fate. He doesn't, however, control humans, because that would be inconsistant with the universal Christian concept of free will. You see, if God is in complete control of us, then he wouldn't be omnibenevolent, because any "free will" we would have had would have been a lie, along with each of our lives. At the same time, though, an infinite God must also be omniscient, otherwise He wouldn't be omnipotent. Therefore, He knows your ultimate destiny, but doesn't control it; do you see?

Essentially, Predestination states that God, being omnibenevolent, gave us the free will to make our own choices, but also already knows what choices we will make, since He is also omniscient.

**Or the original one, at least; since religious sects can get away with saying just about anything, there might be a form of Predestination similar to the one you described.
 
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Teiku 5

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(i edited my last statement in the first post Silver. thanks for being civil.)

while i might be ignorant or some of its original forms Ordeith, i'm not misinterpreting any modern forms of its discussion. free will is not a universal Christian concept. i don't know the document, but Calvin (Protestant Reformation) spoke extensively about and attacked that concept. to say the least, it's nothing new and is still a hot topic when brought up (Christians hate to debate one another, it's a sad thing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination said:
In this common, loose sense of the term, to affirm or to deny predestination has particular reference to the Calvinist doctrine of Unconditional Election. In the Calvinist system, this doctrine normally has only pastoral value related to the assurance of salvation. However, the philosophical implications of the doctrine of election and predestination are sometimes discussed beyond these systematic bounds. Under the topic of the doctrine of God (theology proper), the predestinating decision of God cannot be contingent upon anything outside of Himself, because all other things are dependent upon Him for existence and meaning. Under the topic of the doctrines of salvation (soteriology), the predestinating decision of God is made from God's knowledge of his own will, and is therefore not contingent upon human decisions (rather, free human decisions are outworkings of the decision of God, which sets the total reality within which those decisions are made in exhaustive detail: that is, nothing left to chance). Calvinists do not pretend to understand how this works; but they are insistent that the Scriptures teach both the sovereign control of God and the responsibility and freedom of human decisions (see "Equivocal or analogical concepts of freedom " above).
This view is commonly called double predestination, although within a Calvinist system this term is usually accepted only with qualifications, and many reject the term altogether as being incompatible with the pastoral use of the doctrine of election.

Double predestination is the eternal act of God, whereby the future of every particular person in the human race has been determined beforehand, by God. Whatever the individual wills or does, for good or for evil, is conceived as performing a functional part, or outworking of that ordained purpose. This prior determination applies to both, the elect and the reprobate. This idea is formed on an interpretation of various Scriptures in the Old and New Testaments. Romans 9 is frequently quoted in explanation of the doctrine.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory - KJV
i know that's a lot, but i think the bolded part is really what i'm tyring to say and the verse is the most common one that explains the idea.

would you explain what you mean by omnibenevolent? i've been in many Christian circles and never heard the word in my life and i don't want to construe your meaning before i continue (if i can).
 

CuStArD LuVeR

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If God controls us, he start making us (humans in general) stop killing the world b4 its too late!!!

Or Satan kills us b4 we get the chance to
 

Teiku 5

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God would do whatever it was he needed "before it was too late." he was even kind enough to give us the final chapter of how things are gonna play out (Revelation).

Satan can't do anything besides God's will. not only does he not have to power to supercede God's will, but we even have an example in Job where he had to ask God directly before hurting one person. you would think if Satan had any measurable power against God, that would have never happened. he would have just done it.
 

Ordeith

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Teiku 5 said:
while i might be ignorant or some of its original forms Ordeith, i'm not misinterpreting any modern forms of its discussion. free will is not a universal Christian concept. i don't know the document, but Calvin (Protestant Reformation) spoke extensively about and attacked that concept. to say the least, it's nothing new and is still a hot topic when brought up (Christians hate to debate one another, it's a sad thing)

I'm familiar with John Calvin and Calvinism, but I have to say (meaning absolutely no offense) that his view of Predestination is rather hypocritical, unless the God worshipped by Calvinists is a completely different one than the God worshipped by most other Christian churches and monotheistic religions.

You see, free will is necessary for God to be omnibenevolent--meaning that in order for God to be an entity of love and goodwill as opposed to a selfish narcissist--humans must be given free will. If every action of ours is controlled by God, then we're merely drones meant to glorify this being, and no more. Put yourself in God's position, if such a thing is possible. If you were to create a species of beings as intelligent, artistic, and intuitive as humanity, would you give them the will to do what they please with that intellect? If you didn't, then surely you didn't love them fully; they would only be tools with which you would augment your already infinite greatness. If God truly loves humanity, then humans must be able to choose for themselves; why create something such as a human being if it is no more in control of itself than an animal, essentially?

God creating a race of predestined beings is like a scientist creating a true robot--a genuine artificial intelligence--while restraining it from doing anything but what he told it. In the end, he wouldn't have created a robot at all, only a mindless automaton, and even if the robot believed itself to have a free will, it would be condemned to perform only what the scientist wanted it to.

Another example would be if you somehow gained complete and total control over a person you loved--your mother, for instance. If you loved her, would you completely subjugate her to your will until she could only do whatever it is you'd want her to do? That isn't love, even if you meant the very best for her. A loving God simply would not do that to his children. If He did, then every single human error would be His will, even the Holocaust, an act against his proclaimed Chosen People. How can the suffering caused by Hitler be the will of a God who loves his adoptive children?

But who truly knows what God--if God exists--is truly like for certain? Calvin could easily have been correct in his philosophies, but what I'm saying is that God wouldn't be like nearly every other religion believes Him to be.
 

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I was going to say something along the lines of what Ordeith first said except it wouldn't have been executed as well. I remember having a conversation about this in my American Literature class over McTeague and the concepts of fate and free will. The teacher kept using an example of a mom in a store giving her kid a choice of cereal as if god was giving you a limited choice. I also remember thinking later on that it's limited several times by the store itself choosing which cereals to stock and the companies who decide what cereals to make...not sure if this is getting anywhere, but the point I was trying to make is that to me god may have a road map for your life but you have choices on how to get where you are going not because God is making you go there but because he knows where you will end up.
 

khobsessed01

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so i've talking about this with Gil and Nevermore over something that came up in another thread and i was just wondering what everyone else thinks. hopefully there'll be some people that understand my side so i won't have to reply to every post. anyways, here it goes.

if God is omnipotent (all powerful) and omniscience (over all of time) then is he in control of everything? literally, EVERYTHING. the good, the bad, the ugly, even the "unimportant."

we give credit to him for all the good things that happen: cures for diseases, happiness in our lives, etc. but what about the bad things: wars, violence, terrorists, diseases themselves. isn't it logical to assume he caused them?

i'll expand on my point later but for know...

is God in control of everything?
a logical extension of that question....is he in control of our salvation, whether we accept him or not?


if you're not Christian, than this doesn't even apply to you, so why tell me about how you don't believe in God so you think that the topic is stupid? if you want to contribute than contribute, if not please don't bother.


As a Christian, I'll try to answer your questions(s) in the best way I can. God does not evil to happen, He allows it. The evil in this world is caused by the devil and his demons. To answer your second question, from the beginning of time, God knew who was His, and who wasn't His. The salvation He gives to His chosen is because of Him finally showing His sheep that they belong to Him. Here are some links where you could read about these issues:

Why does God allow sickness?

What is predestination? Is predestination Biblical?

How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?
 
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stormtrooper

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Evil actually resides in every human being, so that really isn't an 'allowance.' It's actually a part of human nature. Not to say that everyone's entirely evil, but everyone has the capability of expressing it. The devil and 'his demons' aren't responsible for evil deeds caused by humans. They cause it themselves, upon their own free will whether they walk away happy with it or not.

In that sense, no one is pure or innocent beyond infancy. in terms of the question of whether or not God allows sickness, combining that with evolution over time - Life would not exist without sickness. From sickness, we devise cures, from sickness, we build endurance and stronger antibodies. Then if something dies, that's either the end of that individual, species, and the ones around it adapt to that sickness.

When applying the question of predestination to myself, even though i think that God exists somewhere, I don't think that it controls the lives of the creatures it watches over. Everything that processes thought, even if it runs on pure instinct has free will.

Free will and predestination are two entirely different things
 

Forever Atlas

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Does god exist?
Whoever can truly answer this gets a pat on the back :)

Awesome contribution.


Anyway, this is my 2-cents on the topic. While I believe that God does have the ability to do so, he does not control our actions. That would completely go against the conecept of free will.

In addition while God has the ability to foresee and foreknow all events, he does not always do so, especially when it comes to humans or any of his creations with free will.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 - I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all

Some other translations render "unforseen occurrence" as "chance." So from the Bible's viewpoint, things don't happen because God is predetermining our lives. Most things happen by chance or because of the actions and intentions set out by those with free will.

Fate would mean that every action that has taken place on Earth was because God set it in motion to happen that way.

Erm, I have to get ready to go out. This topic can get pretty deep and I don't have much time to type out all my thoughts so here ya go for now:

A few quotes from the book Insight on the Scriptures

FOREKNOWLEDGE, FOREORDINATION

Foreknowledge means knowledge of a thing before it happens or exists; also called prescience. In the Bible it relates primarily, though not exclusively, to Jehovah God the Creator and his purposes. Foreordination means the ordaining, decreeing, or determining of something beforehand; or the quality or state of being foreordained.

Original-Language Words. The words generally translated as “foreknow,” “foreknowledge,” and “foreordain” are found in the Christian Greek Scriptures, although the same basic ideas are expressed in the Hebrew Scriptures.

Foreknowledge” translates the Greek pro′gno‧sis (from pro, before, and gno′sis, knowledge). (Ac 2:23; 1Pe 1:2) The related verb pro‧gi‧no′sko is used in two cases with regard to humans: in Paul’s statement that certain Jews were “previously acquainted” with him (knew him beforehand), and in Peter’s reference to the “advance knowledge” had by those addressed in his second letter. (Ac 26:4,*5; 2Pe 3:17) In this latter case it is obvious that such foreknowledge was not infinite; that is, it did not mean that those Christians knew all the details of time, place, and circumstance about the future events and conditions Peter had discussed. But they did have a general outline of what to expect, received as a result of God’s inspiration of Peter and of other contributors to the Bible.

Foreordain” translates the Greek pro‧o‧ri′zo (from pro, before, and ho‧ri′zo, mark out or set the bounds). (The English word “horizon” transliterates the Greek word ho‧ri′zon, meaning the “bounding” or “limiting.”) Illustrating the sense of the Greek verb ho‧ri′zo is Jesus Christ’s statement that, as “the Son of man,” he was “going his way according to what [was] marked out [ho‧ri‧sme′non].” Paul said that God had “decreed [marked out, ho‧ri′sas] the appointed times and the set limits of the dwelling of men.” (Lu 22:22; Ac 17:26) The same verb is used of human determination, as when the disciples “determined [ho′ri‧san]” to send relief to their needy brothers. (Ac 11:29) However, specific references to foreordaining in the Christian Greek Scriptures are applied only to God.

Factors to Recognize. To understand the matter of foreknowledge and foreordination as relating to God, certain factors necessarily must be recognized.

First, God’s ability to foreknow and foreordain is clearly stated in the Bible. Jehovah himself sets forth as proof of his Godship this ability to foreknow and foreordain events of salvation and deliverance, as well as acts of judgment and punishment, and then to bring such events to fulfillment. His chosen people are witnesses of these facts. (Isa 44:6-9; 48:3-8) Such divine foreknowledge and foreordination form the basis for all true prophecy. (Isa 42:9; Jer 50:45; Am 3:7,*8) God challenges the nations opposing his people to furnish proof of the godship they claim for their mighty ones and their idol-gods, calling on them to do so by foretelling similar acts of salvation or judgment and then bringing them to pass. Their impotence in this respect demonstrates their idols to be ‘mere wind and unreality.’—Isa 41:1-10, 21-29; 43:9-15; 45:20,*21.
A second factor to be considered is the free moral agency of God’s intelligent creatures. The Scriptures show that God extends to such creatures the privilege and responsibility of free choice, of exercising free moral agency (De 30:19,*20; Jos 24:15), thereby making them accountable for their acts. (Ge 2:16,*17; 3:11-19; Ro 14:10-12; Heb 4:13) They are thus not mere automatons, or robots. Man could not truly have been created in “God’s image” if he were not a free moral agent. (Ge 1:26,*27; see FREEDOM.) Logically, there should be no conflict between God’s foreknowledge (as well as his foreordaining) and the free moral agency of his intelligent creatures.

A third factor that must be considered, one sometimes overlooked, is that of God’s moral standards and qualities, including his justice, honesty, impartiality, love, mercy, and kindness. Any understanding of God’s use of the powers of foreknowledge and foreordination must therefore harmonize with not only some of these factors but with all of them. Clearly, whatever God foreknows must inevitably come to pass, so that God is able to call “things that are not as though they were.”—Ro 4:17.

Does God know in advance everything that people will do?

The question then arises: Is his exercise of foreknowledge infinite, without limit? Does he foresee and foreknow all future actions of all his creatures, spirit and human? And does he foreordain such actions or even predestinate what shall be the final destiny of all his creatures, even doing so before they have come into existence?

Or, is God’s exercise of foreknowledge selective and discretionary, so that whatever he chooses to foresee and foreknow, he does, but what he does not choose to foresee or foreknow, he does not? And, instead of preceding their existence, does God’s determination of his creatures’ eternal destiny await his judgment of their course of life and of their proved attitude under test? The answers to these questions must necessarily come from the Scriptures themselves and the information they provide concerning God’s actions and dealings with his creatures, including what has been revealed through his Son, Christ Jesus.—1Co 2:16.

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Selective exercise of foreknowledge. The alternative to predestinarianism, the selective or discretionary exercise of God’s powers of foreknowledge, would have to harmonize with God’s own righteous standards and be consistent with what he reveals of himself in his Word. In contrast with the theory of predestinarianism, a number of texts point to an examination by God of a situation then current and a decision made on the basis of such examination.

Thus, at Genesis 11:5-8 God is described as directing his attention earthward, surveying the situation at Babel, and, at that time, determining the action to be taken to break up the unrighteous project there. After wickedness developed at Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah advised Abraham of his decision to investigate (by means of his angels) to “see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.” (Ge 18:20-22; 19:1) God spoke of ‘becoming acquainted with Abraham,’ and after Abraham went to the point of attempting to sacrifice Isaac, Jehovah said, “For now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”—Ge 18:19; 22:11,12; compare Ne 9:7,8; Ga 4:9.

Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. This would mean that, rather than all history from creation onward being a mere rerun of what had already been foreseen and foreordained, God could with all sincerity set before the first human pair the prospect of everlasting life in an earth free from wickedness. His instructions to his first human son and daughter to act as his perfect and sinless agents in filling the earth with their offspring and making it a paradise, as well as exercising control over the animal creation, could thus be expressed as the grant of a truly loving privilege and as his genuine desire toward them—not merely as the giving of a commission that, on their part, was foredoomed to failure. God’s arranging for a test by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and his creation of “the tree of life” in the garden of Eden also would not be meaningless or cynical acts, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to eat of “the tree of life.”—Ge 1:28; 2:7-9, 15-17; 3:22-24.

To offer something very desirable to another person on conditions known beforehand to be unreachable is recognized as both hypocritical and cruel. The prospect of everlasting life is presented in God’s Word as a goal for all persons, one possible to attain. After urging his listeners to ‘keep on asking and seeking’ good things from God, Jesus pointed out that a father does not give a stone or a serpent to his child that asks for bread or a fish. Showing his Father’s view of disappointing the legitimate hopes of a person, Jesus then said: “Therefore, if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”—Mt 7:7-11.
Thus, the invitations and opportunities to receive benefits and everlasting blessings set before all men by God are bona fide. (Mt 21:22; Jas 1:5,6) He can in all sincerity urge men to ‘turn back from transgression and keep living,’ as he did with the people of Israel. (Eze 18:23, 30-32; compare Jer 29:11,12.) Logically, he could not do this if he foreknew that they were individually destined to die in wickedness. (Compare Ac 17:30,31; 1Ti 2:3,4.) As Jehovah told Israel: “Nor said I to the seed of Jacob, ‘Seek me simply for nothing, you people.’ I am Jehovah, speaking what is righteous, telling what is upright.... Turn to me and be saved, all you at the ends of the earth.”—Isa 45:19-22.

In a similar vein, the apostle Peter writes: “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise [of the coming day of reckoning], as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2Pe 3:9) If God already foreknew and foreordained millenniums in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which individuals would receive eternal destruction, it may well be asked how meaningful such ‘patience’ of God could be and how genuine his desire could be that ‘all attain to repentance.’ The inspired apostle John wrote that “God is love,” and the apostle Paul states that love “hopes all things.” (1Jo 4:8; 1Co 13:4,7) It is in harmony with this outstanding, divine quality that God should exercise a genuinely open, kindly attitude toward all persons, he being desirous of their gaining salvation, until they prove themselves unworthy, beyond hope. (Compare 2Pe 3:9; Heb 6:4-12.) Thus, the apostle Paul speaks of “the kindly quality of God [that] is trying to lead you to repentance.”—Ro 2:4-6.

Finally if, by God’s foreknowledge, the opportunity to receive the benefits of Christ Jesus’ ransom sacrifice were already irrevocably sealed off from some, perhaps for millions of individuals, even before their birth, so that such ones could never prove worthy, it could not truly be said that the ransom was made available to all men. (2Co 5:14,15; 1Ti 2:5,6; Heb 2:9) The impartiality of God is clearly no mere figure of speech. “In every nation the man that fears [God] and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” (Ac 10:34,35; De 10:17; Ro 2:11) The option is actually and genuinely open to all men “to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us.” (Ac 17:26,27) There is no empty hope or hollow promise set forth, therefore, in the divine exhortation at the end of the book of Revelation inviting: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.”—Re 22:17.


While you're at it you may also want to check these links:

Is Your Future Predestined?

What Controls Your Future?
 

SilverJ-17

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Does god exist?
Whoever can truly answer this gets a pat on the back :)

Thank you for making us agnostic/ atheists look so brilliant.

Did you read the OP at all?

Nice to know, he knows where we're going. I wonder though. Is there any chance he might occasionally try to sway us back on track, as an attempt to help us? I kind of feel like that was what happened with me recently, seeing how I've been strongly atheist until kind of recently, when I took the small bible in my safe, which I generally used to keep things from moving/ couldn't bring myself to dispose of after stumbling upon it years ago. Truthfully though, I'm not one to throw out any book. The closest I'll come is donating it to the local library, like with the To Kill a Mockingbird book I got from class (after we finished reading it) years ago and a few others.
 

Gildragon

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Teiku it seems pretty much already explained some of the same things I talked to you about yesterday

Ability to know everything that is going to happen is no the same as controlling everyone's actions



its like the ability to predict the future with 100% accuracy

Does god exist?
Whoever can truly answer this gets a pat on the back :)

PLease make relevant posts or I will delete them
 

Lumen et ignem

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I don't beilieve that God can control everything. I don't really know much about church and things like that but i do believe that God can't control everything only knows everything. People's choices decides their fate and destiny though i do believe in predeterminess.
 

Camilo101

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Yeah I agree with ^her^, he is all-knowing and can see what will come, but he doesn't control us. We have a free will for a reason, because God wants us to choose to open our hearts to him. If he wanted to control us then why would he have some of us choose to reject him? We're supposed to choose for ourselves, our destiny is not pre-determined, but God can nevertheless see where we are heading.
 

The Fishman

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I don't beilieve that God can control everything. I don't really know much about church and things like that but i do believe that God can't control everything only knows everything. People's choices decides their fate and destiny though i do believe in predeterminess.

i agree with everything up to the predestination
even though God can't control what we do with our lives, our lives or after-life for that matter isn't predetermined
but in a way it kinda is if you think of it in the way that if we want to act stupid and do evil things our whole life, then our life in hell is kinda predetermined

but not in the Calvinistic sense
 

Camilo101

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No that wouldn't really be predestination, remember just because God can see what will happen, doesn't mean your actions are already set and fixed. If you acted sinfully and ended up in hell, that would be because of your actions that you chose. While God knew that would happen, he didn't control it. And we couldn't have predetermined out own fate, because we don't know what we're going to do in the future either. So predestination really doesn't happen.
 

Teiku 5

Something About, Baby, You and I...
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(imma try to make a more detailed response later with support but geez i'm hella busy right now)

where do you all get the concept of free will from? i know it sounds like a wonderful concept, but it seems in complete contradiction with God being the master of everything, creator and controller of all?

why can we attribute the good things in life to God (cures for diseases, the great people in our life, technology that helps the world advance) but not the bad things (diseases themselves, war, disaster)? didn't God himself cause the Flood or does the story say He let the Devil do it? did the Devil single-handedly destroy everything that Job had (book of Job) or did he first have to ask for God's permission, did God say you can do THIS (one option) but no more (not several options)?

is there a single instance in the Bible where God is surprised at what humanity is doing, or his chosen people or whoever he's talking about. if God had it planned at least from Genesis (when God curses the serpent in chapter 2 i think) that Jesus would come, then how can anyone say that he did not control every exact aspect of everyone's life to ensure that he would make it into the world? what if Abraham never had children? what if David had never become King? what if Mary said she didn't want to have a baby?

this isn't God saying, "I'll figure out when I can get my plan to work. I'll do it whenever humanity decides to do what I want them to do" this is God saying, "This is the plan, this is how it's gonna happen."

and yes, that's my short answer XD lol.
 
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