KHI makes a KH game! Discussion #1: Story, Narrative and Themes

[king_mickey rule]

It has nothing to do with Dream Drop Distance. I haven't even been following that game. When it comes out, it comes out. I'm not going to waste my time reading poorly done translations.

Ok, I was just checking 'cause it wasn't really clear to me whether or not you were talking about our game or the original series. I got the quotes though

The quotes are each about simplicity.

They each mean, when someone is too confusing, convoluted, or contrived, then it needs to have elements removed.

It's best to have a simple story that makes sense than an overly complicated one that obviously just put plot twists in to be shocking. It's one of the things wrong with the main series Kingdom Hearts storyline.

In main series Kingdom Hearts: Story > Characters.

When it should be: Story < Characters.

It means, in the main series the story controls the actions of the characters rather than having a believable reason for things happening.

In Kingdom Hearts II, when Roxas showed signs of a heart without actually showing one it was an example of Story < Characters. The character was choosing what happens.

Birth By Sleep ruined this by retconing it so Rxoas never had a heart, and it was Ventus' heart all along. The story forced the characters to become something they weren't before.

The fact that no ones remembers Xion is a perfect example. The characters wouldn't forget Xion, but the story demands it so that the poorly done retcon can fit.

An example of this in our story is how Lucius was originally going to be able to give people power over darkness even though he wasn't a darkness user.

It contradicts Lucius' character, but the story demanded him to do it anyway.

This was fixed by adding the Primal Keyblade.

Another example is how the Sacrifices are outnumbered by the Heartless so Lucius can feel sorry for the Sacrifices.

This is a case where the characters are given too much control over the universe, and the laws of the universe begin shaping around them.

Unless the Sacrifices are an extension of Lucius utterly and completely, then nothing about their existence should be altered to better fit him. They are their own aspect of the story only connected to Lucius in terms of plot, but not by character.

Lucius' character would be given too much control over the laws of the universe, and the story would be forced to adjust itself to him purely so it fits for him specifically.

Basically, are characters in control or events?

Is everything as simple as it can be to have the effect that we want?

I don't really think the Sacrifices being outnumbered by the Heartless is really a bad thing. I see where you're coming from but Lucius would have found a reason anyways to destroy Darkness, he just needs that little push, which happens to be the Sacrifices.

I think we always said that Sacrifices should be less in number but stronger in power, just like Nobodies pretty much (I think that was like that too). So the Sacrifices being outnumbered by the Heartless is pretty much logical imo. You'll always have some tools to progress the story so I don't think this is a real problem. You were saying this right, that the Sacrifices are an example of Story > Characters?

Are there some things that comes to mind with the other characters where Story > Characters?

I'm not just talking about Lucius' last words. I'm asking are we making it too easy for the audience to feel bad for Lucius rather than making the audience wonder if he felt bad?

Are we making Lucius a fallen hero rather then an unknowable enemy?

Does Lucius feel bad, or care too much too often for it to be unclear whether or not his feelings were real?

I think a fallen hero is the best way to describe Lucius, however, the hero within Lucius fell when he decided to destroy Darkness. Basically, when he started to become mad, you could say that the hero within him started to fall, making room for the villain we have at the end of the game.

I think Lucius feels bad at the end in his own way. To me, he never got over the fact that he lost all these things in his life to Darkness. He regrets himself that he couldn't save them, which escalates into him wanting to save every bit of Light he can save from Darkness.

But still, he'll always regret that he lost his pupils, his brother, his home and everything else. He basically wishes that he could've done something to stop it. Therefore he's going to destroy Darkness so that this never can happen again. After some time though, he begins to see Darkness within everyone and becomes a Light extrimist so to speak. That's how I think Lucius is as a character.

First Attack: Lucius drew the Horned King to Legacy City by stealing one of the Cauldron ingredients.

Last Attack: The Horned King invades Legacy City now that the Cauldron is activated. The Horned King invades with Cauldron Born. Among the Cauldron Born are a few of the fallen Disney enemies the four have fought who died during their storylines. The entire city is evacuated, and only the four and Lucius remain in the end.

A good way to end this level would be for Lucius to ask the four to help him summon Kingdom Hearts to to defeat the Horned King, and then have Lucius' fake death occur. The four would believe they failed, and hunt down the Horned King to his home.

Ok, I'm gonna add that to the summary. Thanks for explaining!

EDIT: The summary is updated.

 

[Arkrend]

I think we always said that Sacrifices should be less in number but stronger in power, just like Nobodies pretty much (I think that was like that too). So the Sacrifices being outnumbered by the Heartless is pretty much logical imo. You'll always have some tools to progress the story so I don't think this is a real problem. You were saying this right, that the Sacrifices are an example of Story > Characters?

Right, but if the only reason we do it is for Lucius in specific than it's Story < Characters. It can work either way sometimes.

It's alright for the story to come before the characters if it prevents the characters from having too much control over how the universe works.

Story < Characters = The Sacrifices only being outnumbered by Heartless so Lucius can feel bad for the Sacrifices/Light.

It's also okay for the characters to come before story, and it should normally work this way.

Story > Characters = Nobody remembering Xion/Roxas' heart being Ven's heart/Terra, Aqua, and Ven all being connected to Sora somehow.

The story is forcing things to happen that either shouldn't happen, or contradict things that happened before in the story or things that the characters did.

Terra, Aqua, and Ven being connected to Sora is an example of Story > Characters, because it changes Sora's character to fit with the story.

Before, Sora wasn't a chosen one. Sora had the Keyblade, because of his own strength.

When they retconned it so Sora had Ven's heart it changed Sora's character. Now he's a chosen one. He isn't the hero, because he chose to become a hero. He's a hero because the universe demands him to be one. Xehanort is interesting in Sora,because of Ven's heart so now Sora no longer has a choice of whether or not to be a hero. He has to be the hero, because plot demands it.

The plot took away Sora's choice.

There should be a balance of Story = Character.

We need to make sure we aren't making characters do things just to move the story forward, or having things happen in the story just to fit a certain character.

Are there some things that comes to mind with the other characters where Story > Characters?

Well Lucius is probably the only who's going to be hard to work with when it comes to this. If we overlook something then it's be wrong when the final product comes out.

But I think Oswald is another example of Story > Characters if Oswald has any type of power in Legacy City and uses it.

We haven't really written much of what Oswald specifically does in the story, but we need to remember he's a trouble maker. Oswald shouldn't like responsibility, and people should be reluctant to trust him.

Now we've got things good for Oswald so far. He hasn't really been forced to do anything that is out of character for him so he can have a role in the story, but it's a thin line with him due to his place in the story.

It's important to show that Oswald is respected, but that he's not really a good leader type character.

Having Lightening handle important things in Oswald's place would be a good way to make sure we aren't messing with Oswald's place in the story.

Basically, have Oswald be someone whose respected without any real power outside of everyone's love for him. People like Lightening try to make sure that things still get done though since Oswald isn't very reliable.

A good place to show this would be to have Lightening handling organization of security for the festival, and looking for Oswald. Lightening told Oswald that he's expected to help with the preparations, but he snuck off for some reason. Have two of the key bearers find Oswald, and find out he's trying to impress Ortensia.

One of Oswald's shorts was one where he tried to sneak into a theater to meet Ortensia, who was the lead actress, but he couldn't manage to get in. Oswald used tricks, and jokes to sneak in to see her. Oswald would also compete with Pete for Ortensia's love.

Having Oswald ignore his responsibility would be good for him as it fits with his character while still fitting his role in the story. Him abusing his power to impress Ortensia would also fit with him.

I think a fallen hero is the best way to describe Lucius, however, the hero within Lucius fell when he decided to destroy Darkness. Basically, when he started to become mad, you could say that the hero within him started to fall, making room for the villain we have at the end of the game.

I think Lucius feels bad at the end in his own way. To me, he never got over the fact that he lost all these things in his life to Darkness. He regrets himself that he couldn't save them, which escalates into him wanting to save every bit of Light he can save from Darkness.

But still, he'll always regret that he lost his pupils, his brother, his home and everything else. He basically wishes that he could've done something to stop it. Therefore he's going to destroy Darkness so that this never can happen again. After some time though, he begins to see Darkness within everyone and becomes a Light extrimist so to speak. That's how I think Lucius is as a character.

You see a Fallen Hero.

I see a Purist.

To me, Lucius is only concerned with himself. The rest of the world doesn't matter anymore.

Why did Lucius survive his battle with Orpheus?

Because his light made him stronger.

Why do the Sacrifices follow him?

Because his light makes him the strongest.

Why did the Primal Keyblade choose him?

Because his light makes him the strongest.

All of the evidence proves to Lucius that only those with a strong enough light are worth their existence. The darkness is so beneath him that he can't even stand the idea of being forced to share a universe with something so beneath him.

He's superior, and he doesn't question it. If he wants someone do something then he can easily manipulate them. If he wants an army then he only needs to wave his arm, and there they will be. He's simply better.

Caring about people has only ever made him weak.

Caring about Orpheus only made his betrayal sting all the more.

Caring about Animus only left his defenses open for an attack by Orpheus.

Caring about his apprentices made him reckless in his fight, and cost him his eyes.

The people around him are tools for reaching his goals. Once they've fulfilled their purpose, they're worthless to him.

The idea of being forced to share a world with anyone weak enough to give in to darkness is just too much of an insult to Lucius. He'd rather have pure world made in his image.


Sp what if he destroys entire worlds by doing this? Their lives don't matter. They're inferior. He survived, because he is better than everyone else. He'll continue to survive by remembering that.

That's how I interpret his character, and it could have been one of the many different ways to see Lucius as long as his isn't made too sympathetic. His character should be hard to read, or be sure about.

 

[DarkRiku-12]

You see a Fallen Hero.

I see a Purist.

That's kind of what we want though, right? For Lucius to be mysterious, so even when people figure out his whole story, it still won't really be clear what he really is.

KMR sees a Fallen Hero
You see a Purist
I see kind of a mixture of both, a hero who was hurt and never truly recovered. In a way, his heart was broken, and it's that pain that brought about his cold, calculating demeanor.

So in a way, nobody really knows what Lucius is. THey have to decide for themselves

 

[king_mickey rule]

Well Lucius is probably the only who's going to be hard to work with when it comes to this. If we overlook something then it's be wrong when the final product comes out.

But I think Oswald is another example of Story > Characters if Oswald has any type of power in Legacy City and uses it.

We haven't really written much of what Oswald specifically does in the story, but we need to remember he's a trouble maker. Oswald shouldn't like responsibility, and people should be reluctant to trust him.

Now we've got things good for Oswald so far. He hasn't really been forced to do anything that is out of character for him so he can have a role in the story, but it's a thin line with him due to his place in the story.

It's important to show that Oswald is respected, but that he's not really a good leader type character.

Having Lightening handle important things in Oswald's place would be a good way to make sure we aren't messing with Oswald's place in the story.

Basically, have Oswald be someone whose respected without any real power outside of everyone's love for him. People like Lightening try to make sure that things still get done though since Oswald isn't very reliable.

A good place to show this would be to have Lightening handling organization of security for the festival, and looking for Oswald. Lightening told Oswald that he's expected to help with the preparations, but he snuck off for some reason. Have two of the key bearers find Oswald, and find out he's trying to impress Ortensia.

One of Oswald's shorts was one where he tried to sneak into a theater to meet Ortensia, who was the lead actress, but he couldn't manage to get in. Oswald used tricks, and jokes to sneak in to see her. Oswald would also compete with Pete for Ortensia's love.

Having Oswald ignore his responsibility would be good for him as it fits with his character while still fitting his role in the story. Him abusing his power to impress Ortensia would also fit with him.

Yeah, true. I think Oswald should be responsible when he really needs to (f.e. making the Bridges, helping friends) but that he needs to be watched when he doesn't have these obligations (f.e. the festival).

So, in a way, I think we need to strike the golden mean and actually make him responsible when needed while still preserving his original personality.

You see a Fallen Hero.

I see a Purist.

To me, Lucius is only concerned with himself. The rest of the world doesn't matter anymore.

Why did Lucius survive his battle with Orpheus?

Because his light made him stronger.

Why do the Sacrifices follow him?

Because his light makes him the strongest.

Why did the Primal Keyblade choose him?

Because his light makes him the strongest.

All of the evidence proves to Lucius that only those with a strong enough light are worth their existence. The darkness is so beneath him that he can't even stand the idea of being forced to share a universe with something so beneath him.

He's superior, and he doesn't question it. If he wants someone do something then he can easily manipulate them. If he wants an army then he only needs to wave his arm, and there they will be. He's simply better.

Caring about people has only ever made him weak.

Caring about Orpheus only made his betrayal sting all the more.

Caring about Animus only left his defenses open for an attack by Orpheus.

Caring about his apprentices made him reckless in his fight, and cost him his eyes.

The people around him are tools for reaching his goals. Once they've fulfilled their purpose, they're worthless to him.

The idea of being forced to share a world with anyone weak enough to give in to darkness is just too much of an insult to Lucius. He'd rather have pure world made in his image.


Sp what if he destroys entire worlds by doing this? Their lives don't matter. They're inferior. He survived, because he is better than everyone else. He'll continue to survive by remembering that.

That's how I interpret his character, and it could have been one of the many different ways to see Lucius as long as his isn't made too sympathetic. His character should be hard to read, or be sure about.

The thing is, the way you describe Lucius to me is a bit too extreme. I want a more human character where he isn't one dimensional. They way you describe Lucius is:

rule 1: I always get what I want
rule 2: when you think otherwise, go back to rule 1

It's pretty one dimensional. I also think he sees the people around him as impure as there is Darkness in them. But he also sees the Light in them and it's that that he wants to save.

He thinks he's doing the right thing but it really isn't. It may be a matter of opinion but I like this version of Lucius waaay more.

 

[inverse K-blade7]

@KMR: The point isn't that Arkrend's opinion is wrong, or that depiction of Lucius is wrong. The point is that both you and Arkrend can put together valid arguments for what kind of character Lucius is, which means we're doing this correctly.

I'm fine with the changes to Oswald.

 

[king_mickey rule]

@KMR: The point isn't that Arkrend's opinion is wrong, or that depiction of Lucius is wrong. The point is that both you and Arkrend can put together valid arguments for what kind of character Lucius is, which means we're doing this correctly.

I'm fine with the changes to Oswald.

Not saying he's wrong though, it's just a matter of how you look at the character, in other words, it's a matter of opinion. But it's funny you'd say that it shows we're doing it correctly, people having different opinions about the character is what we want so I guess you're spot on when saying that!

The most important thing about this is how we write the script, when that is done correctly, we'll have the effect we want.

So, I guess that's that, anything else that needs to be discussed here? Everything in the summary ok?

 

[Arkrend]

@KMR: The point isn't that Arkrend's opinion is wrong, or that depiction of Lucius is wrong. The point is that both you and Arkrend can put together valid arguments for what kind of character Lucius is, which means we're doing this correctly.

This is the point right here. We need to make sure that this can continue, and that people can continue to reach different conclusions on who Lucius was.

We need to be careful with how often we make him feel bad for something/one.

That's what I meant about the part of the story where Lucius encounters the Sacrifices. We shouldn't be clear what Lucius' conclusion is when he goes to the Realm In-Between. We should just make it clear that it was the day were Lucius changed forever.

We wouldn't say, "Lucius felt bad that the balance was disrupted." We wouldn't say, "Lucius saw that light was superior, and everything else was beneath him."

We would have to say something along the lines of, "Lucius had a sudden realization that day that changed him forever."


We can't be too clear about Lucius' motives from that point on. We need to be very ambiguous especially if we are writing something from his point of view, or if his actions might be interpreted as leanign towards one side or the other.

A good example of ruining an antagonist's ambiguity is the Mass Effect franchise.

The first game established that the antagonist was, "Beyond your understanding. You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it."

Fans were rampant in discussion about what their goals were.

Were the Reapers protecting the galaxy from some greater threat? Were they protecting the galaxy from organics so that organic life didn't destroy the galaxy? They did say "We impose order on the chaos of organic life." Maybe they're trying to stop organics from destroying the galaxy with their wars and chaos.

Are the Reapers just plain evil? They seem to look down on organics. They make it sound like we're so inferior we could never understand them?


There was so much speculation, and it was the perfect way to set up an ambiguous villain.

Then Mass Effect 2 came out.

People were a little perturbed, but there was still a lot to speculate now. Though they did know the Reapers had at least one purpose, and it kind of ruined the mystery. Though the grand goal of the Reapers was still a mystery.

Then Mass Effect 3 came out.

And the Reapers were ruined. Their goal was revealed, and it was a stupid logical fallacy that didn't satisfy anyone. Not only that, but a lot of the game's writing was sub-par. The first two levels, and the last three were just disappointing in terms of writing. The game's ending was a disappointment in general with a lot of other aspects of it such as the lack of consequences for choice, and characters who magically transformed into cartoon villains.


The point is that if you give too much away then you risk ruining the mystery of a villain.

We have to make sure we don't let that happen. After the battle with Orpheus, Lucius should become a hard character to read.

Spoiler Show

Upon arrival, he noticed an ongoing battle between the forces of Darkness, the Heartless, and another kind of beings he had never seen before. He feels that the other beings are being defeated by the Heartless and decides to throw himself in the fight. He defeats many Heartless, protecting the other beings.

The attack has stopped and the beings get closer to Lucius. Lucius feels they are unlike anything he had met before, they were beings made out of pure Light. They weren't hostile at all, unlike the Heartless and even obeyed Lucius himself. However, they were still outnumbered and were bound to be defeated by the Heartless eventually. Lucius does not accept this and decides to do whatever it takes to save these kind creatures.

He sensed that the forces of Light were losing, something that he could not accept as a Keyblade Master (Light and Darkness should be kept in balance). He thought of a way to protect the balance and help the Light. By disguising him and using the Primal Keyblade to manipulate the Light in some people their hearts, he searched for people willing to give their heart to Light, to serve the greater good. He manipulated their hearts and created his own species of Sacrifices that would help the Light from surviving the constant attacks from the forces of Darkness.

However, time passed and Lucius still had troubles with his past. Why did he even have to keep the balance between Light and Darkness? He knew that when it was needed, he had to be able to protect Darkness too but why? Why protect something that is against your own ideals?

Darkness was evil and therefore, when being extinguished, should lead to a better world. Never did this happen so who's to say that the balance has to be kept? His curiousity peaked and decided to destroy Darkness once and for all so that everyone could live in a kind universe filled with Light. But how? Was there a way to even create this kind of universe.

Instead I'd have it say

"Lucius returned to the Realm In-Between, and noticed an odd disturbance. The Realm had become a battlefield where the darkness and light constantly clashed.

Something changed in Lucius that day, or perhaps it finally arose to the surface. When Lucius left that world, he left it void of darkness, and he left the seeds of a plan beginning to take root in his mind."

It doesn't say how Lucius reacted to the battle. Simply that he specifically destroyed only the darkness. Something occurred to him that made something change in him that day.

Yeah, true. I think Oswald should be responsible when he really needs to (f.e. making the Bridges, helping friends) but that he needs to be watched when he doesn't have these obligations (f.e. the festival).

So, in a way, I think we need to strike the golden mean and actually make him responsible when needed while still preserving his original personality.

Right. It was kind of a risky choice to make Oswald a respected character given his track record.

I'm fine with the changes to Oswald.

Well we haven't really decided on much for what Oswald will do in the story yet, so we couldn't really make changes to stuff that isn't there.

I guess we're making sure we don't need to make changes.

 

[king_mickey rule]

This is the point right here. We need to make sure that this can continue, and that people can continue to reach different conclusions on who Lucius was.

We need to be careful with how often we make him feel bad for something/one.

That's what I meant about the part of the story where Lucius encounters the Sacrifices. We shouldn't be clear what Lucius' conclusion is when he goes to the Realm In-Between. We should just make it clear that it was the day were Lucius changed forever.

We wouldn't say, "Lucius felt bad that the balance was disrupted." We wouldn't say, "Lucius saw that light was superior, and everything else was beneath him."

We would have to say something along the lines of, "Lucius had a sudden realization that day that changed him forever."


We can't be too clear about Lucius' motives from that point on. We need to be very ambiguous especially if we are writing something from his point of view, or if his actions might be interpreted as leanign towards one side or the other.

A good example of ruining an antagonist's ambiguity is the Mass Effect franchise.

The first game established that the antagonist was, "Beyond your understanding. You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it."

Fans were rampant in discussion about what their goals were.

Were the Reapers protecting the galaxy from some greater threat? Were they protecting the galaxy from organics so that organic life didn't destroy the galaxy? They did say "We impose order on the chaos of organic life." Maybe they're trying to stop organics from destroying the galaxy with their wars and chaos.

Are the Reapers just plain evil? They seem to look down on organics. They make it sound like we're so inferior we could never understand them?


There was so much speculation, and it was the perfect way to set up an ambiguous villain.

Then Mass Effect 2 came out.

People were a little perturbed, but there was still a lot to speculate now. Though they did know the Reapers had at least one purpose, and it kind of ruined the mystery. Though the grand goal of the Reapers was still a mystery.

Then Mass Effect 3 came out.

And the Reapers were ruined. Their goal was revealed, and it was a stupid logical fallacy that didn't satisfy anyone. Not only that, but a lot of the game's writing was sub-par. The first two levels, and the last three were just disappointing in terms of writing. The game's ending was a disappointment in general with a lot of other aspects of it such as the lack of consequences for choice, and characters who magically transformed into cartoon villains.


The point is that if you give too much away then you risk ruining the mystery of a villain.

We have to make sure we don't let that happen. After the battle with Orpheus, Lucius should become a hard character to read.

Spoiler Show

Upon arrival, he noticed an ongoing battle between the forces of Darkness, the Heartless, and another kind of beings he had never seen before. He feels that the other beings are being defeated by the Heartless and decides to throw himself in the fight. He defeats many Heartless, protecting the other beings.

The attack has stopped and the beings get closer to Lucius. Lucius feels they are unlike anything he had met before, they were beings made out of pure Light. They weren't hostile at all, unlike the Heartless and even obeyed Lucius himself. However, they were still outnumbered and were bound to be defeated by the Heartless eventually. Lucius does not accept this and decides to do whatever it takes to save these kind creatures.

He sensed that the forces of Light were losing, something that he could not accept as a Keyblade Master (Light and Darkness should be kept in balance). He thought of a way to protect the balance and help the Light. By disguising him and using the Primal Keyblade to manipulate the Light in some people their hearts, he searched for people willing to give their heart to Light, to serve the greater good. He manipulated their hearts and created his own species of Sacrifices that would help the Light from surviving the constant attacks from the forces of Darkness.

However, time passed and Lucius still had troubles with his past. Why did he even have to keep the balance between Light and Darkness? He knew that when it was needed, he had to be able to protect Darkness too but why? Why protect something that is against your own ideals?

Darkness was evil and therefore, when being extinguished, should lead to a better world. Never did this happen so who's to say that the balance has to be kept? His curiousity peaked and decided to destroy Darkness once and for all so that everyone could live in a kind universe filled with Light. But how? Was there a way to even create this kind of universe.

Instead I'd have it say

"Lucius returned to the Realm In-Between, and noticed an odd disturbance. The Realm had become a battlefield where the darkness and light constantly clashed.

Something changed in Lucius that day, or perhaps it finally arose to the surface. When Lucius left that world, he left it void of darkness, and he left the seeds of a plan beginning to take root in his mind."

It doesn't say how Lucius reacted to the battle. Simply that he specifically destroyed only the darkness. Something occurred to him that made something change in him that day.

I totally agree on this, this is how it should be in the game. The way I wrote the summary is so that we won't forget any of the discussion we had and what we decided, so yeah, it is specific but that's just so that it's easier for us to look back and see what we decided.

However, just to make things clear: the summary is not how it should be said in the game. The summary is only for us so we can have a clear view on the story.

Right. It was kind of a risky choice to make Oswald a respected character given his track record.

It was kinda risky but Epic Mickey did this too and he came out quite good I think, he had his heroic moments there but he's still Oswald.

The thing with his special power to build Bridges between worlds isn't really off character either knowing it's purely because he's curious to travel to other worlds. It was his immense curiousity that made him possible to do these things. It gives him importance later in the game but it doesn't get out of character.

In fact, him being some kind of hero is something he would want I think. Y'know, him being like 'look at me, I'm doing good things, I'm a hero, I'm important!'. See where I'm going?

 

[BondofWater]

Can someone list the members of the dark council please? I knew were were going to include one but I didn't know who was included as a member.

 

[inverse K-blade7]

Can someone list the members of the dark council please? I knew were were going to include one but I didn't know who was included as a member.

THK
Hades
Dr. Facilier
Madame Mim
Yzma
Capt. Silver(betrays them)
Radcliffe
Waternoose(?)

 

[DarkRiku-12]

And Prince John tried to be in it but got rejected, lol. At least, I think so. We're still going with that, right? Cause I think it's hilarious.

 

[king_mickey rule]

Sooo the discussion is gonna heavy in the character thread and I've come up with a few ideas to add to the story to make it more fitting (possible making Lucius look more like a good guy before he reveals his plan).

The four complete their first mission and Lucius introduces himself. He tells them about The Horned King, how he is planning to plunge every world into Darkness using the Heartless and that they are the only ones who can stop him. They have to seal the Keyholes in every world to prevent evil from destroying the worlds.

He also explains that the bridges hold a secret power. When evil is too powerful, someone can sacfrice himself to destroy the forces of evil once and for all. He says that when that time comes, he'll be the one to sacrifice himself for the greater good.

Now, I underlined the thing I wanna talk about. I think it's best to not reveal that early in the game. We want Lucius to be this mysterious character. So I suggest that he just says that when evil gets too powerful he has a plan to stop evil. That's it. He won't tell more about it, he expects the four to trust him on that. The player will have to trust Lucius too, so the player will be able to understand the characters better.

Why is this change so important you say? Well obviously, I'm gonna explain that:

@ MAD and Riku's Artist: Yeah they were. It's just that both of you guys were inactive at the time. I was posting some pics for possible Linnea and Brand tier 2's and 3's when we all realized that if we just kept adding stuff to the outfits, then they would get WAY too complicated. So we decided on their homeworld clothes (which I guess could be considered a tier 1), the clothes that Lucius gives them (their 'adventure' clothes, aka tier 2) and then their armor, which they recieve when they become masters, right before going to Prydian. Basically, we don't need to make stuff too complicated or it will just look... bad. I hope that cleared it up for you goys.

Again, I underlined the part that caught my eye. They become masters right before they go to Prydian. However, becoming a Keyblade Master should give the Keyblade Wielder who's becoming a master more information that he didn't know before (like Aqua in BBS). Otherwise, the title 'Master' wouldn't really mean a thing. So I suggest this is also the moment where Lucius reveals that he's gonna use the power of the Bridges to stop evil once and for all. He also tells them that he can't do it by himself and that he needed the four to become stronger so they could help him.

Another thing he tells them is that the possibility exists that he dies, however, they have to try this. He says that he didn't want to tell them all this because in the beginning, they wouldn't understand it. Now that they're experienced, they know how big the threat is that they're facing. This is the information they gain because they became Keyblade Masters. This also means that all that has happened previous in the game was actually their Mark of Mastery exam.

See where I'm going? So in short:

- The majority of the game is basically the Mark of Mastery exam for the four characters, however this will only be revealed at the end
- The four don't know that Lucius that he's planning on sacrificing himself to destory evil by using the power of the Bridges, this will be revealed at the end when they become Keyblade Masters

Because of all this, the relevance of them becoming Masters is way bigger and the player will have to learn to trust Lucius more. When the four become Masters and Lucius reveals that he was planning on sacrificing himself all this time, the player will suddenly gain more sympathy for Lucius. This in turn will make the impact later (when Lucius reveals his true intentions) even bigger.

Thoughts?

 

[DarkRiku-12]

^ I like it. It pretty much fixes most of the complaints that people had from thread 2. And I also noticed that throughout most of the game (aka: their mark of mastery) they kinda figure out what's going on, but they're still in the dark, and once they become masters, they pretty much figure everything out and beat all of the bad guys. It's kinda symbolic, really.

 

[king_mickey rule]

And I also noticed that throughout most of the game (aka: their mark of mastery) they kinda figure out what's going on, but they're still in the dark, and once they become masters, they pretty much figure everything out and beat all of the bad guys. It's kinda symbolic, really.

Well what'ya know, haven't thought about it that way. It really fits doesn't it?

I really like it too (thanks for giving me the idea btw, your post I quoted before gave me this idea). It adds yet another element tfrom the original series but with a slight twist.

 

[DarkRiku-12]

Why thank you, my mousy friend!

 

[Arkrend]

Umm... KMR, that's already been decided. It's just that your summary was worded a little oddly.

We already decided that Lucius' plan to summon Kingdom Hearts would be a surprised in the last level right before Prydain.

 

[king_mickey rule]

Umm... KMR, that's already been decided. It's just that your summary was worded a little oddly.

We already decided that Lucius' plan to summon Kingdom Hearts would be a surprised in the last level right before Prydain.

...No it's not

Lucius only tells the four that he's gonna use the power of the bridges to destroy evil. He does not use the word 'Kingdom Hearts' even once.

Only when the four return to Legacy City after Prydian, they will see the heart shaped moon above Lucius his tower and when they get there, Lucius is 'back from the dead' and will tell them about Kingdom Hearts and his true plans.

This is why I wrote my summary from the player's point of view because then the events are in the same order that the player will witness them.

In my summary, he says that he's ready to sacrifice himself on the moment he introduces himself to the four. That's what I wanna change. I'd rather have him telling the four he has a plan when evil gets too powerful but he wouldn't really explain it in detail. He just asks them to trust him and help him.

 

[Arkrend]

In my summary, he says that he's ready to sacrifice himself on the moment he introduces himself to the four. That's what I wanna change. I'd rather have him telling the four he has a plan when evil gets too powerful but he wouldn't really explain it in detail. He just asks them to trust him and help him.

Exactly. It was only in your summary. That's what I meant by it being worded oddly. The only place where it was said that Lucius would tell the four he was planning on sacrificing himself in the beginning is in your summary.

 

[king_mickey rule]

Exactly. It was only in your summary. That's what I meant by it being worded oddly. The only place where it was said that Lucius would tell the four he was planning on sacrificing himself in the beginning is in your summary.

That's not me wording something oddly, that's me making a mistake . That's why I keep asking to check the summary if there are any mistakes in it. I'll correct it now.

 

[Arkrend]

That's not me wording something oddly, that's me making a mistake. That's why I keep asking to check the summary if there are any mistakes in it. I'll correct it now.

I thought you just wrote the line in the wrong place by mistake. Like you were editing it, and left in a line in the beginning that was supposed to be in the last paragraph.

Seemed like a typo.