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KHCHI/UX/Union X/Backcover should have come after KH3



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kirabook

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So you know, I've been thinking a lot lately about how things are going story wise for KH.

If I recall correctly, Chi was the first true side game for Kingdom Hearts. It didn't have any direct plot relevance other than the story of the Keyblade War. That is an event that has already happened way in the past and should not affect the present whatsoever. Or at least, that's how it started out.

Slowly but surely, they started adding more and more plot related things. So much so we're questioning how this will tie into KH3 or what affect it will have on the soon to be plot.

I accept that, but in truth, I don't really like it. I feel like Chi/Unchained/Union X could have been handled very differently.

What if they waited to make this game relevant for the plot?

We can't say for sure how it will affect KH3, but I have a suspicion that it won't and all of this happening (except for Maleficent?) will come into play AFTER KH3.

In an alternate reality, Union X could have had kept going and after KH3, it would have a mega story update revealing the suspicious stuff that currently seems like it could involve KH3. They could have spent more time on Backcover and released it after KH3 to show us what to expect in the next saga.

Why did they decide to start mingling all these plots together now? If characters like the Master of Masters won't even be relevant until after KH3, why introduce him so early and leave people on a cliff hanger that might not be answered for another decade after KH3?
 

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Union Cross is somewhat important to Kingdom Hearts 3. It explains why the Keyblade War took place, Ventus's origin, Graphic moments for a game with storybook graphics, and most importantly of all...A most likely wild west reference for Blaine.

Also we get Ephemera and Skuld, so that is also a bonus.

But another question emerges. What role are they going to play?

And remember, this is Kingdom Hearts we are talking about. The lore is more complex than the ingredients for life.
 

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it'll likely be about six years between the release of KH3D and KHIII.

can you imagine if we didn't have a new kh game at all during that time?

oof.
 

Alpha Baymax

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So you know, I've been thinking a lot lately about how things are going story wise for KH.

If I recall correctly, Chi was the first true side game for Kingdom Hearts. It didn't have any direct plot relevance other than the story of the Keyblade War. That is an event that has already happened way in the past and should not affect the present whatsoever. Or at least, that's how it started out.

Slowly but surely, they started adding more and more plot related things. So much so we're questioning how this will tie into KH3 or what affect it will have on the soon to be plot.

I accept that, but in truth, I don't really like it. I feel like Chi/Unchained/Union X could have been handled very differently.

What if they waited to make this game relevant for the plot?

I disagree on that notion entirely. The existence of Kingdom Hearts X/Unchained/Union Cross not only provided a cost effective means of providing Kingdom Hearts content from Square Enix side of things, but it also gave us new Kingdom Hearts content at a fairly steady pace. The content has been coming at such a routine rate that it's astonishing to believe that it's been around 4 years since Kingdom Hearts X first came out.

There was a period in time where the game had no affiliation to present events, but let's be honest, that's only going to be so engaging. The Kingdom Hearts X sub-series is a placeholder for Kingdom Hearts III (albeit, not the best placeholder). In order to keep player retention, it was inevitable that this game linked something directly to Kingdom Hearts III. I'm more engaged in Union X than I've ever been because of Ventus, Maleficent and the new Disney property. If those little links weren't there, people would have lost interest in this game's story.

it'll likely be about six years between the release of KH3D and KHIII.

can you imagine if we didn't have a new kh game at all during that time?

oof.

Plus, it's a iOS/Android game. A lot of people give flack for the mobile gaming market (and rightly so with its pricing model), but Kingdom Hearts X is a really good looking game with a distinctive style. Sure, it can be argued that its origins was a browser game, but that browser game was a pilot study for the mobile release. Functionally, this game is far more engaging than it has any right to be. Yeah, people can say that this is a mechanically tedious game because of how repetitive it is, but as a mobile game, it's leaps and bounds above the shovelware in the market right now. And having the game being the furthest in the timeline is a genius move to get an entirely new audience interested in Kingdom Hearts though a universally accessible platform.
 

kirabook

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But that's the point. We don't NEED the story of Chi right now. While it may tie into KH3, it could very well have been saved for after KH3.

KHUX works great as filler, but that's just what it is. Filler. I can imagine if it had been saved for after KH3 (if we pretend they intended for Chi to be important when they first started it), the story would have been much more condensed and they wouldn't have to try so hard to make it relevant to Xehanort or KH3.

KH3 is the end of the Xehanort saga. Instead of including story stuff from Chi, they could have easily starting bringing up more questions about the war and why Xehanort seemed so obsessed with it instead, leaving off that mystery for post-KH3.

I say this because that's basically where we are now. We're learning the history of the Keyblade war and there will be answers we probably won't even get until after KH3. If Nomura sticks to his word, the MoM won't even appear in KH3 and will most likely continue to be an enigma. That kinda bothers me.

If a movie like Backcover had been saved for after KH3, it possibly could have been longer, more detailed, and a proper prelude to the next conflict of Kingdom Hearts after Xehanort. Instead, we are still left questioning how the heck all of this can possibly fit in KH3 and what possible bullcrap excuse they'll use to make it all Xehanort's fault.

It could have been a clean slice between the Xehanort Saga and the Chi saga, but all we have is a muddy pool of uncertainty.
 

Antifa Lockhart

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Well, I mean, it's too soon to say though since III isn't out and Ux is still going.

However, the two seem to dovetail quite nicely, since they both deal with a Keyblade War, we also know that it'll likely have ramifications on III since Xehanort/Luxu's Keyblade has been made a focal point in the last trailer, Eraqus and Xehanort were talking about the foretellers and we know that someone in III is looking for the Master's box. Pretty sure that last bit especially couldn't have been foreshadowed AFTER the game where it makes its big appearance.

Now, could it have been handled differently? Sure, but that doesn't mean that it'd have been better or worse. Even if you were to alter it into something you're 100% satisfied with, someone with different taste will find something they'd rather have changed, just like most of the series. Actually like literally every series, but that's where the fun of fan fiction comes in.
 

Sephiroth0812

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But that's the point. We don't NEED the story of Chi right now. While it may tie into KH3, it could very well have been saved for after KH3.

KHUX works great as filler, but that's just what it is. Filler. I can imagine if it had been saved for after KH3 (if we pretend they intended for Chi to be important when they first started it), the story would have been much more condensed and they wouldn't have to try so hard to make it relevant to Xehanort or KH3.

KH3 is the end of the Xehanort saga. Instead of including story stuff from Chi, they could have easily starting bringing up more questions about the war and why Xehanort seemed so obsessed with it instead, leaving off that mystery for post-KH3.

I say this because that's basically where we are now. We're learning the history of the Keyblade war and there will be answers we probably won't even get until after KH3. If Nomura sticks to his word, the MoM won't even appear in KH3 and will most likely continue to be an enigma. That kinda bothers me.

If a movie like Backcover had been saved for after KH3, it possibly could have been longer, more detailed, and a proper prelude to the next conflict of Kingdom Hearts after Xehanort. Instead, we are still left questioning how the heck all of this can possibly fit in KH3 and what possible bullcrap excuse they'll use to make it all Xehanort's fault.

It could have been a clean slice between the Xehanort Saga and the Chi saga, but all we have is a muddy pool of uncertainty.

I'm inclined to agree with this viewpoint actually.
While Chi's story is certainly intriguing, so far it does nothing but add more mystery and additional baggage to an ongoing saga that already has quite some baggage to address even without it.
X Back Cover is like a giant teaser for Unchained/Union X with the only things relevant to the present being No Name Keyblade and that stupid box, the latter of which the audience gets to hear and see for the first time (never ever was there any mention of a weird box in KH 1, 2, BBS, Days, Coded or even DDD), so it is something thrown in with absolutely no foreshadowing and which has no actual relationship with Xehanort or any of our present day hero characters.

Relevant to Xehanort? Err wut? Last time I checked there isn't anything in Chi yet that points to any relevance with Xehanort or even the present-day era story-wise.
The only true connections to the present era so far are the No Name Keyblade, Maleficent and Ventus, and aside from some glorified cameos introducing them and having the audience go WTF are they doing in the past they've done nothing with these characters and also nothing with that Keyblade apart from having Luxu showing it off in some cameo scenes.

Yea, indeed, that's what Chi's story should be doing to actually justify its supposed connection with KH III, but maybe this is the dilemma with it: Some if not the majority of the answers are supposed to be big boom answers in KH III so they have to be left out of Chi, yet this creates also content problems because there are other big boom answers fans and the audience expect to get from the build up of the other games in the series.

Or in short, Chi does what a certain portion of the KH fandom has always rightfully criticized and possibly even condemned, and that is opening new cans of worms while not even properly exploring those already opened beforehand.
It adds an unneccessary new layer of complexity and "connections" that may serve to only further complicate the whole package instead of improving it.
Not to mention it again adds to the already rather big pool of original characters who the series in itself has already problems paying satisfying attention to in terms of characterisation and story arcs (Riku being the only exception).

The history of the Keyblade War is certainly an interesting story in itself for sure, but in all honesty what I am more interested in concerning KH III is the story of our present characters around Sora, Riku, Kairi, Terra, Aqua, Ventus and the main Disney crew who are in the conflict with Xehanort, to which the Keyblade War and Xehanort's obsession with it serves as a background information and motivation. Y'know, the story built up starting with KH 1 going over CoM, KH 2, BBS and then coming together in DDD.
To have the past and the actual Keyblade War intrude into the present day story just adds superfluous extra complexities and is likely just to satiate Nomura's unhealthy fixation on making things "surprising" resulting in "shocking" twists of a twist among three more twists which eventually makes you facepalm.

Well, I mean, it's too soon to say though since III isn't out and Ux is still going.

However, the two seem to dovetail quite nicely, since they both deal with a Keyblade War, we also know that it'll likely have ramifications on III since Xehanort/Luxu's Keyblade has been made a focal point in the last trailer, Eraqus and Xehanort were talking about the foretellers and we know that someone in III is looking for the Master's box. Pretty sure that last bit especially couldn't have been foreshadowed AFTER the game where it makes its big appearance.

Now, could it have been handled differently? Sure, but that doesn't mean that it'd have been better or worse. Even if you were to alter it into something you're 100% satisfied with, someone with different taste will find something they'd rather have changed, just like most of the series. Actually like literally every series, but that's where the fun of fan fiction comes in.

Granted, I have to admit that Ux is still running, but it is honestly doing so at a snail's pace using way too much filler material.
Not to mention that Ux itself leaves so many things unexplained that it can become annoying for parts of the audience, it is opening more questions than giving answers, something that isn't really needed among all the open questions the series already has from previous setups made.
Like we got only glimpses of the start and the early stages of the Keyblade War in Browser-Chi, the Aftermath in this blatant teaser scene in 0.2 and the very personal end for the player avatar, but nothing on the later stages, the actual end of the war or anything about the fate of the Foretellers.
We still got close to nothing about the supposed traitor-business, who the supposed real Seekers of Darkness and puppet masters behind the whole thing are, what Nightmare Chirithys actual agenda is or how exactly the nature of the whole Unchained Realm is.
Considering the importance the other games of the series put on the X-blade, the complete absence of it from the Chi-side of things even on the Foreteller's "side" is striking, with the only mention of it being in a Nomura-interview yet again where he states that the Master of Masters "knows" of the X-blade and uses it as a model to create Keyblades.

Heaping all that on KH III to solve alongside the setup already made by the other games does sound like overkill and I can understand when people become concerned about it.
 

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I feel that way as well.
Since DDD Nomura is aiming to keep the audience in a perpetual state of surprise by adding "plot twists" and new mysteries one after the other. Which is fine and amazing if you pace it properly and can lead to a masterpiece, but if spammed it becomes really cheap and a sign of mediocre storytelling abilities imo.

KH III is the most awaited yet the most "obscure" one in terms of what'll happen, in the poll made for the 15th anniversary 4 out of the 5 questions about the series were on the lines of "what's the deal with the Xehanorts/the box/the MoM": people aren't just curious or really involved with the lore, they just wanna know. Because as of now, they're left with basically unanswered plot lines, some of them even from finished games (DDD and Chi).
Oh yeah, I also find the constant rebranding pretty silly and useless too. Less focus on how things are named and more on how things are, please.

I'm sure Ux is going to give us more details, more bread crumbs of storyline along the path, and I know the box is relevant for KH III: but judging from experience it'll hardly gave me the feeling of a puzzle skillfully coming together, and more that of yet another twist with the exception this one will end stuff instead of adding another layer (because there's little chance we're gonna guess what's in the box before its opening).

Now, it's an MMO game, which means it gets built gradually in a very long time, but adding that Nomura stated Guilt should be a key word regarding what will happen after Xehanort and that the MoM isn't even in KH III, I think that at the very least it shouldn't have been directly linked with KH III at all, and just kep there as a sort of expanded universe, with its own pace and narrative.
 

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To have the past and the actual Keyblade War intrude into the present day story just adds superfluous extra complexities and is likely just to satiate Nomura's unhealthy fixation on making things "surprising" resulting in "shocking" twists of a twist among three more twists which eventually makes you facepalm.

For real though, I can't believe Nomura thinks the most important element of a good story is that it needs to be surprising. Surprise for surprise's sake doesn't really accomplish much, and I really don't understand why he thinks this way. A good plot twist is certainly one of the best aspects of good storytelling, but said twist needs to be earned and properly built up in order for the twist to be effective. Nomura just likes to make people WTF constantly, and yeah, he's certainly done that, except now the entire series has become one giant WTF and it's not a good thing.
 

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The reason people are interested in the first place is because it was made canon. Based on past games, we all know no game can be completely skipped. You have to at least read about it or watch cutscenes or you'll miss out on something important.

If Chi/X/whatever had stayed non-canon without the super important plot stuff happening until after KH3, even that would have been ok. Just have it as a fun little side game. Then after KH3, refresh and rebrand it into something more condensed (aka, less Desert levels) so that people can quickly get the story and become interested in what's coming post-KH3. Sprinkle plot teasing for KH4 (that's weird to think about) for however long until the next major release. Release the Backcover movie to introduce the new conflicts, characters, mysteries, and antagonists. And then soon after, finally release the next game to start letting the mysteries be solved.

Anyway, I know we can't go back and change things, but gosh, as much as I love this series, I also love thinking about how much better it could be planned out and why no one seems to think ahead when it comes to making KH stuff. How many fans have they lost over the years because they just splurge out whatever whenever they want and spread plot important stuff into games they know only a small portion of their fans will play.

They need to do more studies and statistics on their player base so they can stop making these same mistakes once the Xehanort saga is over.
 

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But if it wasn't canon, you wouldn't have been anywhere as interested in the story of the game as you are now; correct?

Uh, I'm not interested now, either?
Except for Ventus's involvement, I couldn't give any less shits about the game's story.
 

catcake

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I personally would have prefered Chi/Ux to be canon, BUT not tie into the main series in any significant way. Just something that happened long ago in the same universe, maybe some little references to it in KH3 like easter eggs and stuff that only those who played it will get, but I don't really like the fact that it seems to be telling actually important stuff. But I think this has something to do with Nomura thinking that people won't find characters (or anything else apparently) interesting unless it's tied directly to the existing cast. Like with him being surprised Aqua was so popular despite having no connections (back then....).

I would definitely be interested in Ux if it was just about the origin of the keyblades, the ancient times and showing how the keyblade war happened. All that. But now we have some weird timetravel/dream world stuff going on, again, Ventus is suddenly there, Maleficent too and... eh, I don't know. I won't judge it before KH3 comes out and we'll see just how important all this will be, but it still definitely hasn't been done the way I would have preferred.
 

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I personally would have prefered Chi/Ux to be canon, BUT not tie into the main series in any significant way. Just something that happened long ago in the same universe, maybe some little references to it in KH3 like easter eggs and stuff that only those who played it will get, but I don't really like the fact that it seems to be telling actually important stuff. But I think this has something to do with Nomura thinking that people won't find characters (or anything else apparently) interesting unless it's tied directly to the existing cast. Like with him being surprised Aqua was so popular despite having no connections (back then....).

I would definitely be interested in Ux if it was just about the origin of the keyblades, the ancient times and showing how the keyblade war happened. All that. But now we have some weird timetravel/dream world stuff going on, again, Ventus is suddenly there, Maleficent too and... eh, I don't know. I won't judge it before KH3 comes out and we'll see just how important all this will be, but it still definitely hasn't been done the way I would have preferred.

That would've been perfectly fine by me as well.
 

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Uh, I'm not interested now, either?
Except for Ventus's involvement, I couldn't give any less shits about the game's story.

You care for Ventus involvement in the story. His involvement is a key part of the Union X narrative as he's one of the new Union leaders. Because Ventus is in the game, you have an interest in the story because he's involved regardless of how you "couldn't give any less shits about the game's story". Let's hypothetically assume that Ventus was not in this story, and a new original character took his place. Would you still care about the X narrative?

The point that I'm trying to make is that, a lot of people are complaining that the X narrative is damaging Kingdom Hearts in general because of it's direct connections with the console and handheld games, yet the reason as to why so many fans are enticed to the X narrative's story is because of the plot threads that directly connect to characters originating from the console and handheld games.
 

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Eh, I kind of feel like it's forced interest for me. I'm forced to follow the story because the characters are now tied to it, but that doens't mean I like it. I could very much be interested in the story simply because it's good and interesting, but instead it's just... well, I have to.

The whole plot is so confusing, I still have no idea what is the connection between Chi and Ux, there are the foretellers, but now there's suddenly new union leaders? Nothing is focused on enough, there's just waaay too much going on and new things happening before the old ones are wrapped up. Everything is just jumping all over the place and getting convoluted. For me it's not as much "wow this character I like is here, oh boy am I now hooked to the story and feel a connection", it's more "oh boy do I hope they find a way to somehow explain this in a way that makes some sense and isn't dumb... guess this will be important in the future so I'll have to pay attention". Like... yeah? I follow the story, but that doesn't mean I like it or think it's good. Just because I'm interested in X doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer Y if I had the choice.

Buut that's just me.
 

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Eh, I kind of feel like it's forced interest for me. I'm forced to follow the story because the characters are now tied to it, but that doens't mean I like it. I could very much be interested in the story simply because it's good and interesting, but instead it's just... well, I have to.

The whole plot is so confusing, I still have no idea what is the connection between Chi and Ux, there are the foretellers, but now there's suddenly new union leaders? Nothing is focused on enough, there's just waaay too much going on and new things happening before the old ones are wrapped up. Everything is just jumping all over the place and getting convoluted. For me it's not as much "wow this character I like is here, oh boy am I now hooked to the story and feel a connection", it's more "oh boy do I hope they find a way to somehow explain this in a way that makes some sense and isn't dumb... guess this will be important in the future so I'll have to pay attention". Like... yeah? I follow the story, but that doesn't mean I like it or think it's good. Just because I'm interested in X doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer Y if I had the choice.

Buut that's just me.

Because of a lack of time, I will just sign this post.
I'm forced to be interested, instead of being given a good reason.

Reason I'm not interested in general is the shit kind of way that SE gives us this story. I'm sorry, mobile games that take forever are a very bad way to keep the fans on the line.
 

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Eh, I kind of feel like it's forced interest for me. I'm forced to follow the story because the characters are now tied to it, but that doens't mean I like it. I could very much be interested in the story simply because it's good and interesting, but instead it's just... well, I have to.

The whole plot is so confusing, I still have no idea what is the connection between Chi and Ux, there are the foretellers, but now there's suddenly new union leaders? Nothing is focused on enough, there's just waaay too much going on and new things happening before the old ones are wrapped up. Everything is just jumping all over the place and getting convoluted. For me it's not as much "wow this character I like is here, oh boy am I now hooked to the story and feel a connection", it's more "oh boy do I hope they find a way to somehow explain this in a way that makes some sense and isn't dumb... guess this will be important in the future so I'll have to pay attention". Like... yeah? I follow the story, but that doesn't mean I like it or think it's good. Just because I'm interested in X doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer Y if I had the choice

Buut that's just me.
Full agreement, very well said.

Reason I'm not interested in general is the shit kind of way that SE gives us this story. I'm sorry, mobile games that take forever are a very bad way to keep the fans on the line.
The fact that 90% of the story is filler doesn't really help either. We got 15 missions chasing a cat. Wow. Much story. Such interest. Great.
 

Audo

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personally i think khux's story was more interesting than kh3's. i care about the foretellers, the master, ephemera, skuld, etc. and am more interested in them than i have ever been interested in xehanort and his gang of lackeys.

(ventus is actually the thing im least interested in)
Full agreement, very well said.
The fact that 90% of the story is filler doesn't really help either. We got 15 missions chasing a cat. Wow. Much story. Such interest. Great.
i mean that's not terribly different from how disney worlds in general have worked in the series. a lot of it is just excuse for gameplay.
 
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