Is Kingdom Hearts poorly written?

[the red monster]

"The fact that fans are so forgiving, about an individual piece of medium, a franchise that they like. It lays the groundwork for people behind those franchises to take advantage, and to string you along on the hope that it'll be worth it in the end."

Boom there it is.

Might be off topic but i got one word for this, Pokemon.

 

[Cumguardian69]

Might be off topic but i got one word for this, Pokemon.

Not really. Pokemon pumps out solid titles everytime, just uninspired/samey. KH on the other hand refuses to have a baseline for titles in every single aspect. The writing isn't consistent from title to title, the gameplay has never reached KH2(FM) heights, game balance is all over the place, and even the OC story content is sometimes dripfeed (gacha, ReMIND, MoN) and sometimes dumped on you (BBS, CoM, 3).

Pokemon fans might not come to expect more from thwir titles, but it's not like S&M, USUM, or even SwSh were 6.5/10s.

KH on the other hand presented at least 3 lower quality titles in the last 12 years. We don't need a primer on which those were

 

[disney233]

Not really. Pokemon pumps out solid titles everytime, just uninspired/samey. KH on the other hand refuses to have a baseline for titles in every single aspect. The writing isn't consistent from title to title, the gameplay has never reached KH2(FM) heights, game balance is all over the place, and even the OC story content is sometimes dripfeed (gacha, ReMIND, MoN) and sometimes dumped on you (BBS, CoM, 3).

Pokemon fans might not come to expect more from thwir titles, but it's not like S&M, USUM, or even SwSh were 6.5/10s.

KH on the other hand presented at least 3 lower quality titles in the last 12 years. We don't need a primer on which those were

The writing is just as incoherent in KH2. Only reason why it's on a high pedestal is because of flashy nostalgia.

 

[cakito123]

One of my favorite video essayist posted this today which I feel highlights what is wrong with Kingdom Hearts as a franchise:

I love this channel as well!

Just watched the video, and I can agree with them on almost eveything, but I don't think this applies to Kingdom Hearts that well, maybe just a little.

I would agree 100% if KH was not a game, but as a game I think every entry in the series was worth playing and fun to play ( actually, maybe not Days). And even ignoring gameplay, except KH3, every game until now had its own contained story that indeed was worth the experience as an standalone experience. Days was about RAX, BBS was about TAV, DDD was about Riku and Sora (mostly Riku), and CoM was about Org XIII's first appearence and Castle oblivion.

Maybe what rubbs us off the worng way is the fact that KH now gets released on crumbs on UX, so we're always feeling dragged to whatever ending we may have on that game. So yeah, I can agree with you in this case. But I don't see this like there is 'something wrong with Kingdom Hearts as a franchise'

 

[2 quid is good]

Pokemon fans might not come to expect more from thwir titles, but it's not like S&M, USUM, or even SwSh were 6.5/10s.

I could not disagree more, were it not for the fact that they retain the monster catching/collecting mechaninc - the absolute BASELINE for these games - you probably wouldn't be saying this. Battling ever since Gen 7 has regressed, with the last good innovation being Mega's and those were from Gen 6. Nothing since Gen SuMo onwards has had an overall positive impact on the trajectory of the game series, I would have said X/Y but Mega's are actually pretty decent.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

I love this channel as well!

Just watched the video, and I can agree with them on almost eveything, but I don't think this applies to Kingdom Hearts that well, maybe just a little.

I would agree 100% if KH was not a game, but as a game I think every entry in the series was worth playing and fun to play ( actually, maybe not Days). And even ignoring gameplay, except KH3, every game until now had its own contained story that indeed was worth the experience as an standalone experience. Days was about RAX, BBS was about TAV, DDD was about Riku and Sora (mostly Riku), and CoM was about Org XIII's first appearence and Castle oblivion.

Maybe what rubbs us off the worng way is the fact that KH now gets released on crumbs on UX, so we're always feeling dragged to whatever ending we may have on that game. So yeah, I can agree with you in this case. But I don't see this like there is 'something wrong with Kingdom Hearts as a franchise'

I think I can understand what you are saying, but Kingdom Hearts has always operated on leaving these threads of intriguing storylines that have no resolution or lead up to something that amounts to nothing since KH2FM.

Back then we thought they served the plot and would have some interesting payoff but now that KH3 has come and gone, we were left with a lot of sequel bait that imo retroactively weakens the previous games and especially harmed KH3’s story.

KH3 was too busy trying to set itself up for the future that it forgot to resolve the past storylines outside of the big ones in any satisfying manner.

And ReMIND is really more of that, with a heap of random nonsense in the form of the “X” thing thrown on top for good measure.

That isn’t to say these things aren’t enjoyable because we all enjoy these games and I have found every game satisfying in its own way, but it’s all objectively bad storytelling. As the audience, we respond by making statements like “oh they will fix these things later” and later comes like with ReMIND and instead it just compounds onto the issues while maybe fixing a few things, and we as the audience come back again to say “oh they will certainly fix it this time around” and it keeps happening over and over. We said they’d fix Kairi in KH3, then she was killed by Xehanort, then we said she’d be fixed in ReMIND and she was to a degree then we said MOM was finally her time and then it wasn’t...

Do you see what I’m trying to get at here? There is a fundamental issue here with expectations, setup, payoff, and fans pushing their expectations to the next project in hopes that Nomura and the dev team will fix things later.

We hope for threads to have satisfying payoff, then we realize Nomura grew bored of that idea years ago and has dropped it until he looks back and decides to work it back into the story somehow...

 

[palizinhas]

The Kairi card alone has been pushed for ages. People have been waiting for her to be fixed in the next game since the DDD secret ending if not before that, because that's what the games keep telling us will happen, only for it to get pushed back to the future again and again.

 

[The_Echo]

Do you see what I’m trying to get at here? There is a fundamental issue here with expectations, setup, payoff, and fans pushing their expectations to the next project in hopes that Nomura and the dev team will fix things later.

This kind of reads like the fans know what's best for the narrative and if it doesn't cater to what we want, then it's bad writing.

Maybe the real problem is fans running in circles with their own presumptions and expectations until they've made it impossible for themselves to be satisfied by the reality?

The Kairi card alone has been pushed for ages. People have been waiting for her to be fixed in the next game since the DDD secret ending if not before that, because that's what the games keep telling us will happen, only for it to get pushed back to the future again and again.

Maybe I'm the only one, but I don't think Kairi was "broken" to begin with.
She's just not what some fans desperately want her to be.

 

[Oracle Spockanort]

This kind of reads like the fans know what's best for the narrative and if it doesn't cater to what we want, then it's bad writing.

Maybe the real problem is fans running in circles with their own presumptions and expectations until they've made it impossible for themselves to be satisfied by the reality?

In a way it is that, but also do you really find it good writing to establish a bunch of plot mysteries then drop them in the finale of the saga and leave most explanations of confusing plot details in interviews?

It’s really both. It’s Nomura and the staff’s fault for creating these sorts of mysteries they have no intention of providing payoff too and just have as bait and it is the fans fault for expecting so much from the story.

 

[The_Echo]

In a way it is that, but also do you really find it good writing to establish a bunch of plot mysteries then drop them in the finale of the saga and leave most explanations of confusing plot details in interviews?

Such as? I'm having trouble thinking of anything that was left completely unexplained outside of the obvious future stuff like χ/Verum Rex.
I guess a big one that's always bothered me is "what the hell is Naminé actually," but I have a feeling that was never intended to be answered to begin with.

Obviously I want everything solved as much as the next guy (and much of my enjoyment of KH's plot is piecing that puzzle together), but it also isn't necessarily bad writing to not explicitly detail the technical mechanics of the plot. Storytelling is an artform, not a formula. It's not always about making sure everything locks into place nice and neat.

KH already bends over backwards to explain so much to us, to the extent I've seen others lament this function of the narrative as "ruining the mystique" that the original game had established.
I don't quite agree, but it's not an invalid read of the storytelling to wish for something less detailed.

 

[May-Jor]

Regardless, especially with media that people pay for in one way or another, fan expectations is a major factor. Kingdom Hearts is not a unique case of fans being strung along with an endless cycle of hype and hope, most of which IS perpetrated by the creators themselves, either through interviews or within the works themselves. This isn't even about getting clear answers immediately, it's about plot threads that have been brewing for ages under-whelmingly fizzling out in the end for the sake of throwing completely new stuff into the mix. And the games spending an ungodly amount of time explaining these new ideas in the worst ways possible (exposition/text dumps) when they can be going about it in ways that don't sacrifice time for character development, natural world-building, etc.

Such as? I'm having trouble thinking of anything that was left completely unexplained outside of the obvious future stuff like χ/Verum Rex.
I guess a big one that's always bothered me is "what the hell is Naminé actually," but I have a feeling that was never intended to be answered to begin with.

A big one for me was the Xemnas and Aqua armor stuff.

 

[Deliverance]

Honestly I think the true problem is just the struggle to balance Disney stuff and Original stuff.

Like, this is the one game that absolutely needed more original stuff spread out throughout the game instead of backloading it and keeping Sora excitedly running around Disneyland without a care in the world while at the same time making him and VenVen obsessed with heading straight to the RoD in order to keep Aqua from basically becoming KH's Nelo Angelo.

The fact is that having such a giant cast of original characters doesn’t work for KH. In something like FF which also has an ensemble cast, no matter where you go and how many side characters you meet, the focus is still on the main party. The games have plenty of time to properly explore those 6 or so characters because nothing else is fighting them for attention.

But as a crossover with Disney, KH needs to stay authentic to those properties. Meaning Sora’s (& co.) relationship with the movie characters has to be given proper focus. There’s just no time to develop 20 other original characters. But Nomura wants to have it both ways so he just bloats the beginning and end with all his OC fanfiction. Like how do you expect Maleficent to get any decent screentime when the game has to establish it’s group of 13 fucking villains?

This kind of reads like the fans know what's best for the narrative and if it doesn't cater to what we want, then it's bad writing.

Maybe the real problem is fans running in circles with their own presumptions and expectations until they've made it impossible for themselves to be satisfied by the reality.

It’s important to remember that Nomura himself has contributed to this behavior. He’s said many times that he leaves some plot points unexplained to encourage fan interpretations and speculation. Though he’ll immediately turn around and say “Actually you where all wrong. THIS is the real answer!” in the following sequel/interview.

The writing is just as incoherent in KH2. Only reason why it's on a high pedestal is because of flashy nostalgia.

KH2 is on a high pedestal because it’s a well designed game bro. It’s writing isn’t great by any means but the following games have only exasperated its problems.

 

[the red monster]

The fact is that having such a giant cast of original characters doesn’t work for KH. In something like FF which also has an ensemble cast, no matter where you go and how many side characters you meet, the focus is still on the main party. The games have plenty of time to properly explore those 6 or so characters because nothing else is fighting them for attention.

But as a crossover with Disney, KH needs to stay authentic to those properties. Meaning Sora’s (& co.) relationship with the movie characters has to be given proper focus. There’s just no time to develop 20 other original characters. But Nomura wants to have it both ways so he just bloats the beginning and end with all his OC fanfiction. Like how do you expect Maleficent to get any decent screentime when the game has to establish it’s group of 13 fucking villains?

100% this.
which is why i hope disney will get less of a focus in the next couple of games, at least.
i loved ReMind because there's no disney focus. i want more OC stuff instead of disney filler that does almost nothing for the main plot.
either make disney worlds relevant for the main story like KH1 or have just few of them so it won't take all the focus from the OC material.
i feel KH kinda outgrow disney by now, there's too much going on but there's no time because disney keep taking 80% of the game which is why a lot of ideas left unexplored/left for future games. KH3 suffered the most because of it.

 

[KeyToDestiny]

It's completely asinine to think Kingdom Hearts has "outgrown" Disney when 1. Disney owns the IP and 2. Majority of fans still play these games for the Disney content. I think people need to understand how OC stuff(which is a mess at this point) will always be of the lesser dose in content compared to the Disney/Pixar material and I'm honestly grateful for that.

P.S. more people know more about and care for the Disney/Pixar characters than they do or care for the OCs.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

KH at its core and conception was supposed to be a SE/Disney collaborative project. It worked well with KHI and CoM, and it was passable with KHII. Blaming Disney for the downfall the series has gone in I feel is unfair, since the whole premise has been to visit Disney worlds, and that was the charm and magic of it. Mixed in with some moving character moments, and you had something solid. Take Disney away and you just have another FF but with a madman with no sense at the helm and in control.

The one to blame is the director behind it all.

No one asked for a bloated cast. No one asked for a dozen Soras and Xehanorts running around. No one asked for retcons or random additions that happen just cause it moves the plot where Nomura wants it to be no matter the lack of build up to it, there was no need for time travel, no one asked for multiple SRK rip-off trio shit. All this overly complex stuff and machinations are out of Nomura's head. 358/2 Days was unnecessary, period. Xion was unnecessary. Did we really need Ven? If it had to happen, him and Roxas should have been the same person (hell, that would actually make the whole entire thing better, more so as to where we are now currently...would be glorious). And Aqua was great for being the well-done Kairi, but she was pretty much an observer of the other two driving the plot. Those post-KHII side games are what ruined the direction of the series if you ask me. That's when it had too many characters for no reason other than, what, to keep us busy? Then Nomura completely failed at keeping these plot threads together as they all came to a head when it was something he created. So he went off a check list and missed plenty of intercharacter interactions and growth.

Nobodies are supposed to take after their originals with "slight differences". There was no need to explain Roxas' appearance, especially since he's on the "special Nobody" bracket. There was no need to explain why he left because we had already known why, so why allow Kanemaki to input a Sora replica but not really due to looking like Kairi because memories but has black hair for some unexplainable reason. I remember in an interview he stated it was because he thought it was "cool". That's how this guy's mind works. The rule of cool. Do it now and think of the consequences later.

Oh, there were consequences alright. You got a mess of a narrative.

Organization XIII should have been put in the grave the second KHII ended. Bringing them back does no favors and now he has to consider another set of 13+ villains. It's stupid. Can't forget the KHUx cast that he's really trying to shoehorn in.

There, that's already cutting away more than half the baggage.

Nomura can't keep shit simple, he doesn't let characters rest, and he keeps making stuff up along the way. That's the issue, not Disney or Disney worlds. If anything, I consider them collateral damage left in his wake.

Oh, we can't forget Walmart Noctis and Stella to add to the mix. He couldn't make his dream of Versus XIII be real so he's injecting it into a series that has no place for that. Obviously not over it.

 

[Elysium]

It's completely asinine to think Kingdom Hearts has "outgrown" Disney when 1. Disney owns the IP and 2. Majority of fans still play these games for the Disney content.

I still think the reason KH3 is the only game in the franchise to sell as much--much less more--than KH1 is because of Frozen...

Anyway, I don't want Disney to go anywhere. I just wish they would do the original content better. For example, KH3 would've been fine if Keyblade Graveyard had received a bigger world. KH1 and 2 could balance the Disney content with 2-3 original worlds fine. I mean, I didn't really dislike the way the story was handled in KG personally, it was more how pitiful the world itself was. Maybe if they'd made a bigger world for it, they could've added more scenes. But with only a few hallways, they couldn't dump more cutscenes on you in one spot; there was no way to spread things out because the world was literally too small.

 

[the red monster]

OC stuff will always be of the lesser dose in content compared to the Disney/Pixar material and I'm honestly grateful for that.

If people want disney stuff more, they shouldn't complain the OC material is badly written.
because there's basically not enough room for it, and it ends up being rushed. again, KH3 is the perfect example.
CoM is considered good because there's a lot of main plot story, it had more room to do it.

Edit- i mean, of course disney should not go away, and it won't anyway. i just want it to be more balanced, so the OC stuff will get more time that it really needs. not just at the opening/end game, it makes middle game feel like a filler. i would appreciate the disney worlds more if it wasn't just a rush of one after one nonstop for 20 hours. so i just speedrun it because it gets exhausting.

as for the oversized cast, i agree. there's too many characters and not enough time to squeeze it all in. there's nothing that can be done now, so my point was that in the future game disney worlds needs to take more time off so we will have more time for the OC. otherwise it's gonna be the same situation of KH3 that people still complain about.

 

[May-Jor]

If people want disney stuff more, they shouldn't complain the OC material is badly written.
because there's basically not enough room for it, and it ends up being rushed. again, KH3 is the perfect example.
CoM is considered good because there's a lot of main plot story, it had more room to do it.

Edit- i mean, of course disney should not go away, and it won't anyway. i just want it to be more balanced, so the OC stuff will get more time that it really needs. not just at the opening/end game, it makes middle game feel like a filler. i would appreciate the disney worlds more if it wasn't just a rush of one after one nonstop for 20 hours. so i just speedrun it because it gets exhausting.

as for the oversized cast, i agree. there's too many characters and not enough time to squeeze it all in. there's nothing that can be done now, so my point was that in the future game disney worlds needs to take more time off so we will have more time for the OC. otherwise it's gonna be the same situation of KH3 that people still complain about.

The amount of balance of Disney content does not affect the quality of the writing of the OC material. The writers' ability to write affects the writing of the OC material. And the proportions wouldn't even be an issue if the OCs and Disney intermingled more.

 

[Cumguardian69]

Disney isnt the problem. Corporate Disney is.


•There's no reason Sora and Kairi couldn't both appear in Arendelle to witness fear and sacrifice.

•There's no reason why Roxas just had to return post BH6 - the entire point of that was that Tadashi still lived on inside Baymax, just like Roxas still lived on inside Sora.

•No Zerg in Toy Box lmfao

All Disney problems.

 

[disney233]

Disney isnt the problem. Corporate Disney is.


•There's no reason Sora and Kairi couldn't both appear in Arendelle to witness fear and sacrifice.

•There's no reason why Roxas just had to return post BH6 - the entire point of that was that Tadashi still lived on inside Baymax, just like Roxas still lived on inside Sora.

•No Zerg in Toy Box lmfao

All Disney problems.

All Disney...yeah, no. The people in charge of both departments are the problem, and will forever be a problem. Disney didn't need to be so disgustingly irrelevant to the story, and the game in general didn't need to stuff this game with so much anime fluff. Both parties are at fault.

Maybe this is an unpopular opinion or completely controversial for the sake of being controversial, but we didn't need this time travel crap introduced along with 40 Soras, 40 Xehanorts, and 40 REPLICAS OR WHATEVER, and 40 people from the AgE OF FaIrY tAlEs.

At the same time, DAMN Disney. You've basically butchered your own Disney Magic.