Is Kingdom Hearts poorly written?

[Absent]

I'm convinced at this point it's part love for the character designs/previous characterisation and part Stockholm syndrome that keep people invested

Me.

 

[The_Echo]

KH3 ended up more being Nomura saying "yah yah I'm bored of Xehenort, let me set up the master of masters storyline more". We waited a damn decade for what was billed as a conclusion, and ended up being essentially a prologue.

It was a conclusion. To the first saga. We were told it was the end of Xehanort as the main villain, and it was. How 'bout that.
If you thought KHIII was ever intended as the end of the series, you simply weren't paying attention.

The DARKNESS DARKNESS LIGHT DARKNESS KEYBLADE dialogue was lulzworthy for years, for sure, but I wouldn't call that bad writing. Bad writing is putting the most important event in the lore (keyblade war) in a japanese only browser game, then remaking that game (but not really) as a gatcha game that drips out critical story elements such as Ven's origin on a monthly basis (but to non-japanese players months late).

The platform the narrative is delivered through is not an element of writing, as it turns out.

You can be as pissy as you want about mobile games but that isn't "poor writing."
It's "writing which exists somewhere I don't want it to."

 

[Guernsey]

You do have a point. It is just I assumed that the game was spinoff or something else entirely.

 

[Cumguardian69]

It was a conclusion. To the first saga. We were told it was the end of Xehanort as the main villain, and it was. How 'bout that.
If you thought KHIII was ever intended as the end of the series, you simply weren't paying attention.


The platform the narrative is delivered through is not an element of writing, as it turns out.

You can be as pissy as you want about mobile games but that isn't "poor writing."
It's "writing which exists somewhere I don't want it to."

No. It was sequelbait torashu that spent more time throwing random ideas for the undecided future (where is le random girl, ancient keyblade legacy, fkn yozora and his similarity to S and R, the epic secret NS told Sora) than it did drumming up the core plot (team light v team dark, what does it mean to risk oneself for another, etc). The whole BS defense shield of YoU weREnt PayInG ATtenTioN that KH3 fans love to trot out is god awful.

Compare KH2 to KH3. KH2 does a much better job at being a conclusion (it concludes all threads from KH1 and CoM) while also prequebaiting and sequelbaiting. The core of KH2 is that Sora must find Mickey (which he does in the very beginning of game), find Riku (endgame), quell his inner rage (also endgame). The game's intro certainly prequelbaits (SURELY this guy named Roxas has a past if he's connected to the same Keyblade that Sora uses), the game's endgame also prequelbaits (just who were "the others" that Xigbar mentioned?) And that goddamn secret ending is the godliest prequelbait known to mankind which gets AMPED in 2FM. But by and large, the Organization is established as a threat, we see how they operate and how they put Sora in a bind, then Sora 1v1s them all one by one. No bullshit disappearance at the end nothing.

 

[2 quid is good]

It was a conclusion. To the first saga. We were told it was the end of Xehanort as the main villain, and it was. How 'bout that.
If you thought KHIII was ever intended as the end of the series, you simply weren't paying attention.

Amazingly, we can have fulfilling conclusions in a long running saga despite knowing there will be sequels. I'm afraid if you feel KH3 did that well you definitely weren't paying attention.

It's such a stupid whataboutism to go "KH3 wasn't the end of the series", as if it's a valid point to make with regards to its weak conclusions and ridiculous sequel baiting

 

[The_Echo]

No. It was sequelbait torashu that spent more time throwing random ideas for the undecided future (where is le random girl, ancient keyblade legacy, fkn yozora and his similarity to S and R, the epic secret NS told Sora) than it did drumming up the core plot (team light v team dark, what does it mean to risk oneself for another, etc). The whole BS defense shield of YoU weREnt PayInG ATtenTioN that KH3 fans love to trot out is god awful.

I don't really know what you expected out of a KHIII which focused primarily (exclusively?) on the story of the final confrontation with Xehanort.
Which, actually... is kind of already what it did.
Yes, there are more hooks and future plot threads compared to KHII, but the bulk of KHIII's journey still concerns collecting the Guardians and defeating Xehanort. The nods to the χ storyline probably take up less than 10 minutes of the game all told, and Yozora/Verum Rex even less. These moments just stand out because they're new and mysterious compared to the relatively straightforward and predictable endgame of the current arc.

DDD already set the stage for the final battle. They ended the game with Xehanort going "see you at the Keyblade Graveyard, assholes." You're basically sitting at the doorstep of one big battle before KHIII even begins.
I found myself concerned that KHIII wouldn't have enough plot to justify a 30-some-hour ARPG because there was so little to do between then and the final battle. In a way, I was right, with the main plot being largely absent through the middle of the game (not that this is a unique issue to KHIII).

Amazingly, we can have fulfilling conclusions in a long running saga despite knowing there will be sequels. I'm afraid if you feel KH3 did that well you definitely weren't paying attention.

I was only saying that it was a conclusion in response to someone claiming it wasn't.
Whether or not it was a "fulfilling" conclusion is another matter altogether.

 

[2 quid is good]

I was only saying that it was a conclusion in response to someone claiming it wasn't.
Whether or not it was a "fulfilling" conclusion is another matter altogether.

Well I can agree with that at least

 

[Ballad of Caius]

The problem with Kingdom Hearts III is that the next saga had better presentation than the end of the past one. In terms of amount of time: yes, the Seekers of Darkness Saga far surpasses any sequel bait amount that we got.

But quality over quantity.

 

[Deliverance]

Is the idea that KH3 was a conclusion by the most technical and semantic basis imaginable really a hill worth dying on?

 

[2 quid is good]

You would be surprised

 

[Absent]

Lol remember that stupid box?

 

[Elysium]

I remember thinking the Black Box storyline was going to be Nomura's way of powering up Maleficent to make her relevant again and threaten the worlds in 3. Welp. Maybe next time... (You guys waste time hoping over Kairi and I'll waste time hoping over Maleficent.)

I agree that Nomura just does what he wants at any given moment and makes the story bend itself in pretzels to make it happen if necessary. But I like that in a way, because it means nothing is really over. Ursula could return for the 50th time, Beast's Castle and the Pinocchio world could return despite the fact they should be over, etc. Repliku, Larxene, and Marluxia came back after never being involved since CoM! I like that the door is never really shut on anything happening. The concept of bringing back all the villains from the first saga for the finale was a great one, which is why I loved 3D's addition to the story even though the rest of the fanbase tripped and fell over the time travel mechanics.

 

[The_Echo]

Is the idea that KH3 was a conclusion by the most technical and semantic basis imaginable really a hill worth dying on?

It's really not complicated. It's a yes/no qualification.

Did KHIII conclude the Dark Seeker Saga?
Yes.
That's it. No technicalities, no semantics. It's incredibly simple.
Anyone who would in good faith argue KHIII's status as a conclusion must necessarily mean "conclusion to the series as a whole."

As stated before, what kind or quality of a conclusion it was is an entirely separate conversation.

 

[Cumguardian69]

^being TechNIcalLY CorrECT is not the way to go when we're talking about writing quality. lmao. KH3 checking the barest of bare minimums in a story doesn't mean it did its job well, and nobody who says "KH3 wasn't a conclusion" meant it in the sense that it did not check those bare minimums. Stop playing coy lamo

 

[The_Echo]

KH3 checking the barest of bare minimums in a story doesn't mean it did its job well,

I don't know how many times I have to say that "being a conclusion" and "being a good conclusion" are two completely different conversations before it sticks.
Like I genuinely don't understand how you're having such a hard time with this.
"KHIII wasn't a conclusion"
"Actually, it absolutely was"
"Yeah, BUT IT SUCKED"

OK?
And? What's your point?
Do you just want to bitch? Because you can do that without stubbornly denying statements of objective, simple truth.

and nobody who says "KH3 wasn't a conclusion" meant it in the sense that it did not check those bare minimums. Stop playing coy lamo

There is no other sense. That's all there is. Is it a conclusion? Yes/no.
It's not a complicated status to hold. Stop conflating the quality of something with whether it was something at all.
Please.

 

[kirabook]

I feel like we also got sorta baited about Maleficent being relevant but she wasn't. I don't know why, it's been a year or two now but I have this distinct feeling promo material was building her up a little more than what she got in the game.

KH3 was the conclusion of an arc... but it wasn't a very good conclusion. I think Kingdom Hearts needed a HUGE "this part is done, moving on to the next one!" That's actually what I was expecting. I think I wrote as much in my pre-KH3 prediction post or something. I was going to decide whether to continue with the series after seeing the conclusion.

But I feel like the ending was almost a direct response to that. "Actuallllly it's not over!!! Surprise! The train never stopped rolling!" To me.... that just isn't good. Nomura could've given himself a clean break KH2 style, I feel like the writing and the story really needed that.

But this doesn't feel like a KH2 break. It doesn't feel like a break at all. Even if it's technically a conclusion to Xehanort's arc, we're still somehow dealing with the 'ghost' of Xehanort be it Dark Road or his uh... well, spoilers.

I think ever long running story benefits from a resting period or "reset" of sorts.

Like, imagine, you wouldn't even have to change that much after KH3 honestly. Just... well firstly, don't fridge Kairi. And then, have Sora disappear right after Xehanort. Leave the cast way more dumbfounded and trying to settle into their new Xehanort-free lives. Have them kinda working a bit to figure out what happened to Sora, but really focus on the reunions and the "coming back home at last" feelings rather than skipping to the "Let's partay!" bit we got.

I mean, I love me some Ven playing frisbee and Roxas losing a race to Riku, but.... I dunno. It wasn't very fitting....?

 

[Rydgea]

So,... just so we're clear: technically achieving a conclusion means the quality of the writing is good? (/thread?) Or are we still distinguishing whether we got one however half-baked? Half-baked is still a whole conclusion? Something, something, math.

Just making sure, but, I mean, I guess I'll confirm with an Ultimania, interview or KH4's inevitable in-game wall-of-text summaries.

 

[Cumguardian69]

I don't know how many times I have to say that "being a conclusion" and "being a good conclusion" are two completely different conversations before it sticks.

THREAD: Is Kingdom Hearts poorly written?

Like, if you don't get it after that...you're just trying to defend 3 or trying your damnedest to be technically correct. I mean, you do your thing, but nobody is convinced otherwise. 3 didn't end satisfactorily for many people, and its writing + pacing are both objectively bad. Sorry champ, try again with KHMoM and its entire...15 minutes?...of OC content that totally wasn't ripped from the ReMIND campaign lolol

 

[The_Echo]

THREAD: Is Kingdom Hearts poorly written?

Like, if you don't get it after that...you're just trying to defend 3 or trying your damnedest to be technically correct. I mean, you do your thing, but nobody is convinced otherwise. 3 didn't end satisfactorily for many people, and its writing + pacing are both objectively bad. Sorry champ, try again with KHMoM and its entire...15 minutes?...of OC content that totally wasn't ripped from the ReMIND campaign lolol

I genuinely don't understand what your problem is.

I'm not saying anything at all about the quality of KHIII or its narrative.
All I said, all I've said this entire time, was that it was indeed a conclusion, in response to someone claiming it wasn't.
And you just have to take some great offense to that. I really don't get it. Why are you like this?
Why are you so needlessly cynical and combative (not just in this thread)?
Why do you think the appropriate response to "KHIII was an ending" is "no, KHIII was bad?"

It's starting to feel like you're just in a pissy mood, looking for an excuse to complain (about things that are progressively getting further away from the original conversation, no less), and I wound up in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Deliverance]

It's really not complicated. It's a yes/no qualification.

Did KHIII conclude the Dark Seeker Saga?
Yes.
That's it. No technicalities, no semantics. It's incredibly simple.
Anyone who would in good faith argue KHIII's status as a conclusion must necessarily mean "conclusion to the series as a whole."

As stated before, what kind or quality of a conclusion it was is an entirely separate conversation.

I didn’t get the impression the person you responded to was saying KH3 wasn’t a conclusion in the most literal and objective sense of the word. Their point was that it didn’t feel like a conclusion. Picking apart their use of the word is literally semantics.