Is Kingdom Hearts poorly written?
- Thread starter AegisXIII
- Start date
|
REGISTER TO REMOVE ADS |
|
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2020
- Messages
- 79
- Awards
- 1
When I last answered, I was thinking more about plot and character development instead of dialog. The dialog in the series is awkward and stilted and often cheesier than a block of cheese. This is true for the original Japanese and all the translations. As far as stiltedness goes, SE does it on purpose to establish some cultural neutrality. None of these characters are from the real world, and if they were, they would speak a ton of different languages and have drastic cultural differences between each other and the viewers, and that would constantly get in the way of establishing a canon, and that's not even taking translations into account. Both Disney and SE are wise to stylize the dialog for their stylized works. It allows diverse characters to communicate efficiently, and it allows the viewers to understand the characters without lengthy cultural annotations.
That still doesn't mean they had to go full cheese though. I of course forgive SE for the glorious cheese, but even I will admit the series could have been better if that were toned down a little. If the dialog is so cheesy it gets in the way of people's ability to care about the story or the characters, it should be toned down, because that's just bad writing unless it's a parody, and this series is dead serious. Since KH1 was more whimsical and less serious than what came after, the amount of cheese was very appropriate, but as the series got more serious, they kept writing cheesy dialog. Why, Square Enix, why? What did we do to deserve this?Aside form buying millions of copies and adoring KH, of course.
Occasionally the dialog is genuinely good, like in large parts of CoM and Days. Certainly many will disagree, and that's a good and fine part of forums.
That still doesn't mean they had to go full cheese though. I of course forgive SE for the glorious cheese, but even I will admit the series could have been better if that were toned down a little. If the dialog is so cheesy it gets in the way of people's ability to care about the story or the characters, it should be toned down, because that's just bad writing unless it's a parody, and this series is dead serious. Since KH1 was more whimsical and less serious than what came after, the amount of cheese was very appropriate, but as the series got more serious, they kept writing cheesy dialog. Why, Square Enix, why? What did we do to deserve this?
Occasionally the dialog is genuinely good, like in large parts of CoM and Days. Certainly many will disagree, and that's a good and fine part of forums.
I'd like to add my two cents again:
The thread's title asks if KH is "poorly" written. I think "poorly" is too strong of an adjective for KINGDOM HEARTS' case. Personally, when you balance the good with the bad in the game's writing, I think they're equally balanced, so I think the series' franchise is "just okay". It's like a middle point between good and bad. The franchise certainly excels in creating memorable moments, but not giving us buildup for those moments.
Also, the argument we throw for the game's plot have been discussions that have taken place every since KH2 for over 15 years. The series has never had writing that has surpass the status of "its okay".
But this is to be expected from an overarching story that's planned from game-to-game, and not from an over-the-top perspective of there being more than one game.
Which is why I think this new saga/Phase of KH can be promising. It's a saga that Nomura was planning since he was finishing the Seekers of Darkness and he's actively planning it from a more broad perspective.
Although you can say that Melody of Memory is part of this Phase and the story's management wasn't good, but that game's plot was an afterthought.
The thread's title asks if KH is "poorly" written. I think "poorly" is too strong of an adjective for KINGDOM HEARTS' case. Personally, when you balance the good with the bad in the game's writing, I think they're equally balanced, so I think the series' franchise is "just okay". It's like a middle point between good and bad. The franchise certainly excels in creating memorable moments, but not giving us buildup for those moments.
Also, the argument we throw for the game's plot have been discussions that have taken place every since KH2 for over 15 years. The series has never had writing that has surpass the status of "its okay".
But this is to be expected from an overarching story that's planned from game-to-game, and not from an over-the-top perspective of there being more than one game.
Which is why I think this new saga/Phase of KH can be promising. It's a saga that Nomura was planning since he was finishing the Seekers of Darkness and he's actively planning it from a more broad perspective.
Although you can say that Melody of Memory is part of this Phase and the story's management wasn't good, but that game's plot was an afterthought.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2020
- Messages
- 1
- Awards
- 2
I realize that the series gets a lot of passes for nostalgia and whatnot but as someone who hasn't been interested in the series for an awfully long time, I can still admit that I really love it. It does bother me, the awkward dialogue, the inconsistencies, the way it treats its female cast but something about it just clicks with me for a reason I can't really pinpoint. Ever since I learned the story of CoM something just clicked in me, the writing is not perfect, flawed in many ways in fact, but it still resonates with me quite a lot. I am particularly invested in the story of KHUX and the stories of all of the new union leaders and I think it's the mystery I really enjoy. I enjoy speculating and trying to piece the clues the writers have left for us together. Like I said, I do not defend a great portion of Kingdom Hearts' writing but there's definitely charm to be found in there. Even though it hasn't even been a year since I sat down and decided to watch the cutscenes of KH1, I still feel very emotionally invested with it, almost like as if it's been a missing piece of me that I've only managed to recover now. I am honestly surprised myself considering I tend to be quite critical of stories but KH is just a massive exception to that. I do hope they finally decide to fix the series' weaknesses and let its characters develop to be more human and that MoM is a more believable and third dimensional villain than the ones we have seen before. I know the "welp, there's always next time" mentality is rightfully criticized but from the two choices of abandoning the series as a whole and sticking with it, I think I'd rather stick with it because it is still a massive serotonin machine to me lol. Or maybe I'm just so desperately in need of escapism from the real world that I was able to settle with what KH offers.
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 3,912
- Awards
- 82
Yeah. It's not great. There are nuggets of good execution and promise, but it never lives up to its potential.
Which, I think, is basically the entire Kingdom Hearts experience. The things it does well are really great, and from there it's just...mm.
I think what stings the most about KH is that it continues to be the King of Missed Opportunities. There are a lot of great assets and obviously talented people involved with the creation of the games, and that will never NOT be the case, but that's the trap.
Whatever's on the horizon will look pretty cool and promising, but without some real shake ups, people are always going to be disappointed.
Which, I think, is basically the entire Kingdom Hearts experience. The things it does well are really great, and from there it's just...mm.
I think what stings the most about KH is that it continues to be the King of Missed Opportunities. There are a lot of great assets and obviously talented people involved with the creation of the games, and that will never NOT be the case, but that's the trap.
Whatever's on the horizon will look pretty cool and promising, but without some real shake ups, people are always going to be disappointed.
As Shakesphere was mocked in his time, so is Nomura Chan
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2012
- Messages
- 329
- Awards
- 4
It just desperately needs a dialogue rewriter and someone to tap Nomura on the shoulder and say "that's a great idea but here's how we can distil it into a more digestible form." Disney should put all their QC into these two aspects.
I dunno about dialogue. If anything they need to put Nomura on dialogue more.
He's the guy who came up with "Roxas, that's a stick" for crying out loud.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2019
- Messages
- 71
- Awards
- 3
Then who is responsible for the more narm-y dialogue then?
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2009
- Messages
- 17,750
- Awards
- 36
I would not give Nomura too much credit for Days. According to people who have played the Japanese version, its script is horribly bland and dry. It being so vanilla is how and why localization took so many liberties to really flesh it out, and they deserve all the credit for doing so.
Nomura, Tomoco Kanemaki, and Daisuke Watanabe are responsible for the scenario writing for the game.
But like Sign said, the localization team did a lot of heavy lifting for the script.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2020
- Messages
- 79
- Awards
- 1
I didn't know this. It's very interesting. I've played/seen Days in every language but Japanese, so I had no idea the original script wasn't as good.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2016
- Messages
- 870
- Awards
- 3
It’s 50/50, the story is enjoyable, but then Nomura ruins it by adding something that doesn’t make sense that fry your brain, like for example the final chapter of ff7 remake, ofc most of us understand most of what went down there, but it kinda felt like a mind wrecking puzzle... Nomura should stop thinking that his creative, at some times he blows my mind on how awesome he make the story, but later on he ruins it with his strange confusing plot, at least for me.
Kingdom Hearts is a work of translation and localization, it seems like things had to be changed in order to accommodate cultural sensibilities.
I agree with this but to be fair with Nomira, he isn't only offender nor does man that he can what he wants with the Disney characters outside Mickey, Goofy,Yen Sid,etc. Kingdom Hearts could use some streamlining.
- Joined
- May 23, 2020
- Messages
- 670
- Awards
- 2
Can u elaborate on what you meant becoz ff7re final chapter made sense to me?
Like others have said I think the writing in the series is rather mixed. The series can hit me like few other series can, but at the same time it makes a lot of choices that are just... really?!?
Most characters are pretty likable, and have solid archetypes their based off of, but the series doesn't always know how to handle them or evolve them further.
The way the series likes to leave things vague can pay off well, when they later use that vagueness to connected to something else, but at the same time it makes the universe they create feel rather flimsy.
Leaving things vague like what exactly is a Princess of Heart and what all can the keyblade do and how do the different types differ from each other, works well, if you are just making a standalone game. However, if you make a series and it's still unclear nearly 20 years later, that's kind of an issue. I'd say the same with implying a character arc for a character and keep hinting at it to come installment after installment only to again say "next time folks" that just isn't all that satisfying.
I also find it a bit worrisome that the individual installments no longer feel complete on their own. This is a problem I mostly had with DDD and KH3, but by the time they ended I didn't feel like I finished a season of a show, but just a story arc within the season, which isn't as fulfilling. Like I get that this is an ongoing series, but still BBS and Days both were building up to 3 and yet they felt like their own stories with a beginning, middle and end.
In the end the series makes a lot of questionable choices, and is definitely not the best and most thought out storyline. However it is written in a way that stirs my emotions, it makes me smile and feel all warm. It impacts me like no other series and I find lot of the ideas presented interesting, even if not explored in the most satisfying way. Also its always fun to play, even if the storytelling has become a bit more frustrating as time went on I have enjoyed playing through most of the installments, with the mobile games being the only noteworthy exceptions.
Most characters are pretty likable, and have solid archetypes their based off of, but the series doesn't always know how to handle them or evolve them further.
The way the series likes to leave things vague can pay off well, when they later use that vagueness to connected to something else, but at the same time it makes the universe they create feel rather flimsy.
Leaving things vague like what exactly is a Princess of Heart and what all can the keyblade do and how do the different types differ from each other, works well, if you are just making a standalone game. However, if you make a series and it's still unclear nearly 20 years later, that's kind of an issue. I'd say the same with implying a character arc for a character and keep hinting at it to come installment after installment only to again say "next time folks" that just isn't all that satisfying.
I also find it a bit worrisome that the individual installments no longer feel complete on their own. This is a problem I mostly had with DDD and KH3, but by the time they ended I didn't feel like I finished a season of a show, but just a story arc within the season, which isn't as fulfilling. Like I get that this is an ongoing series, but still BBS and Days both were building up to 3 and yet they felt like their own stories with a beginning, middle and end.
In the end the series makes a lot of questionable choices, and is definitely not the best and most thought out storyline. However it is written in a way that stirs my emotions, it makes me smile and feel all warm. It impacts me like no other series and I find lot of the ideas presented interesting, even if not explored in the most satisfying way. Also its always fun to play, even if the storytelling has become a bit more frustrating as time went on I have enjoyed playing through most of the installments, with the mobile games being the only noteworthy exceptions.