Here’s what Xion and kairi need in my opinion!

[*TwilightNight*]

Jesus Christ, this again. I'm honestly at my limit for talking about this.

I'm just going to say:
1.) Saying "Roxas' story might be better without Xion" is a non argument. It might have been substantially worse, its impossible to know, so why does it matter?
2.) Saying she is unnecessary to the story while at the same time saying that the story might be better without her is actually self contradictory. If she doesn't add anything why would you even suggest that her removal would affect the story at all? Because of course it would, she played a huge role in motivating Roxas to leave the organization.

You didn't have to talk about it all. My reply was on Absent's comment, not anybody else. There was a decision made when jumping into the subject.

1) and 2) This was also in response to another user's statement that apparently without Xion, Roxas would have been "boring". I was making a point using that same method of thinking that said user had to emphasize that there's no way to know that, while using examples as to how other events and aspects could have occurred that would have still added depth to him as a character. And really, Roxas as a character is dynamic by personality and background alone. So.

 

[OneDandelion]

You didn't have to talk about it all. My reply was on Absent's comment, not anybody else. There was a decision made when jumping into the subject.

1) and 2) This was also in response to another user's statement that apparently without Xion, Roxas would have been "boring". I was making a point using that same method of thinking that said user had to emphasize that there's no way to know that, while using examples as to how other events and aspects could have occurred that would have still added depth to him as a character. And really, Roxas as a character is dynamic by personality and background alone. So.

I said the same thing, we can say his character would be boring without Xion because if all you did was remove Xion from the story his character literally would be boring. He would lose half of his motivation. 358/2 days probably wouldn't exist because without Xion his story literally boils down to "i don't trust the organization so im leaving".

Your argument depends on the idea that Nomura would rewrite a more interesting story which is a complete assumption. I don't have to assume anything by saying that if Xion was removed Roxas' story would be boring because nothing else interesting happens during the year long period that game takes place

 

[*TwilightNight*]

I said the same thing, we can say his character would be boring without Xion because if all you did was remove Xion from the story his character literally would be boring. He would lose half of his motivation. 358/2 days probably wouldn't exist because without Xion his story literally boils down to "i don't trust the organization so im leaving".

Your argument depends on the idea that Nomura would rewrite a more interesting story which is a complete assumption. I don't have to assume anything by saying that if Xion was removed Roxas' story would be boring because nothing else interesting happens during the year long period that game takes place

Except you don't know that because you don't know what removing Xion from the story would be like. And even then people have issues about dullness with Days and Xion with Xion in it. Roxas is interesting without Xion as he was. He's a deeply flawed character with his own heartfelt story in the KH2 prologue on its own. It's the reason why there was even a 358/2 Days in the first place. His popularity. If you pin his character solely on Xion then that's your subjective perception. Roxas is fine without her the way I see it because he was fine without her. In fact, I think Days did some disservice to his character.

It appears to me it's more that you guys like Xion, and like Roxas by association, rather than himself. Which is fine.

 

[OneDandelion]

Except you don't know that because you don't know what removing Xion from the story would be like. And even then people have issues about dullness with Days and Xion with Xion in it. Roxas is interesting without Xion as he was. He's a deeply flawed character with his own heartfelt story in the KH2 prologue on its own. It's the reason why there was even a 358/2 Days in the first place. His popularity. If you pin his character solely on Xion then that's your subjective perception. Roxas is fine without her the way I see it because he was fine without her. In fact, I think Days did some disservice to his character.

It appears to me it's more that you guys like Xion, and like Roxas by association, rather than himself. Which is fine.

I don't know how you can call a blank slate that lost his memories "deeply flawed" lol

The only flaws that exist in his character are byproducts of 358/2 days that he doesn't even remember. I'm not pinning his entire character on Xion, but to say she doesn't play a large role in who he is is a lie

 

[*TwilightNight*]

I don't know how you can call a blank slate that lost his memories "deeply flawed" lol

The only flaws that exist in his character are byproducts of 358/2 days that he doesn't even remember. I'm not pinning his entire character on Xion, but to say she doesn't play a large role in who he is is a lie

Because we're shown this good, normal boy being caustic, prone to anger, prefers honesty or told the truth ("I deserve to know"), doesn't allow others to run all over him, has apparently no problem dropping friends if they are toxic, dismissively so, and it's not until he loses literally everything and find out that this world he was living in was a lie, with (as far as he knew) fake friendships and a fake life, that he renounces and returns to Sora. And even then he's still restless and fights Sora after Axel's "death". So yeah, that's a deeply flawed character. He isn't selfless, he's selfish, and has to come to terms with parting with his wants and needs, or at least, try to understand why it had to happen. And it's why he was liked.

So while you might think he needs Days or Xion, that's on you. And your opinion. He's dynamic all on his own from my end. And it's why he's my favorite. Days had nothing to do with that.

 

[OneDandelion]

So while you might think he needs Days or Xion, that's on you. And your opinion. He's dynamic all on his own from my end. And it's why he's my favorite. Days had nothing to do with that.

It's very odd to me you seem not to like days when it literally magnifies the "flaws" you just listed. His character acts exactly the same.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

It's very odd to me you seem not to like days when it literally magnifies the "flaws" you just listed. His character acts exactly the same.

Not really. Dude didn't do shit for majority of the game except sit in the clock tower, eat ice cream, learn things like a one year old baby, and be confused. And it's not until it was getting closer to the KH2 timeline that he remembered he was a main character and got back to what made him interesting in KH2. As I've said before though, that's another topic.

 

[OneDandelion]

Not really. Dude didn't do shit for majority of the game except sit in the clock tower, eat ice cream, learn things like a one year old baby, and be confused. And it's not until it was getting closer to the KH2 timeline that he remembered he was a main character and got back to what made him interesting in KH2. As I've said before though, that's another topic.

You say this, but the same was true for the KH2 prologue. The only difference was in the setting and the fact the prologue takes place over 7 days. Half of the flaws you listed from KH2 were at the very end when he was faced with stressful situations, so I don't understand why you're acting like the entire prologue with Roxas was great when it was only the last 2 or 3 days when any of those "flaws" emerged?

Despite your great exaggeration of his character during days - sure, he was less stressed for a longer period of time than in the prologue, I don't see why that would take away from what you theoretically should appreciate about his character for the second half of the game.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

You say this, but the same was true for the KH2 prologue. The only difference was in the setting and the fact the prologue takes place over 7 days. Half of the flaws you listed from KH2 were at the very end when he was faced with stressful situations, so I don't understand why you're acting like the entire prologue with Roxas was great when it was only the last 2 or 3 days when any of those "flaws" emerged?

Despite your great exaggeration of his character during days - sure, he was less stressed for a longer period of time than 5 days, I don't see why that would take away from what you theoretically should appreciate about his character for the second half of the game.

The prologue, he had every reason to be caustic, more so because odd things were happening around him, he keeps having dreams, weird connections with people, doesn't know anything, this redhead wants him, this bandage guy wants him, then there's Riku acting like an ass, lol, etc. This Roxas was smarter, and was active in his own story. He got so much in such a short amount of time. And showed growth post-prologue. Just because he got to what I like about him in Days near the end of said game, doesn't make the lack of effort for the rest of it with him justifiable. I have issues and gripes with Days when it comes to him. I'm just happy KH3 kept it up with what was shown in KH2.

 

[OneDandelion]

The prologue, he had every reason to be caustic, more so because odd things were happening around him, he keeps having dreams, weird connections with people, doesn't know anything, this redhead wants him, this bandage guy wants him, then there's Riku acting like an ass, lol, etc. This Roxas was smarter, and was active in his own story. He got so much in such a short amount of time. And showed growth post-prologue. Just because he got to what I like about him in Days near the end of said game, doesn't make the lack of effort for the rest of it with him justifiable. I have issues and gripes with Days when it comes to him. I'm just happy KH3 kept it up with what was shown in KH2.

It was a different situation entirely. I understand enjoying the prologue more than days because frankly it was more fun, I just don't understand your gripes about his character in Days because despite the different situations his characters acts almost exactly the same. The only reason he can act caustic, as you like to call it, in the prologue is because hes given more control over his situation and that leads to a more interesting story throughout the time he spends in twilight town. By contrast, the benefit of his lack of control over his situation in Days is that his frustration builds up overtime until his character finally explodes toward the end.

I will admit that Days could be a pretty tedious experience because the plot is slow and the characters don't drive it forward in significant ways but it works in my opinion because their frustrations throughout that story allows Roxas to make a defining choice in the end.

 

[Unusual1290]

I said the same thing, we can say his character would be boring without Xion because if all you did was remove Xion from the story his character literally would be boring. He would lose half of his motivation. 358/2 days probably wouldn't exist because without Xion his story literally boils down to "i don't trust the organization so im leaving".

Your argument depends on the idea that Nomura would rewrite a more interesting story which is a complete assumption. I don't have to assume anything by saying that if Xion was removed Roxas' story would be boring because nothing else interesting happens during the year long period that game takes place

Why do you keep mentioning Days? No one ever said that game would be better or more interesting without Xion, because obviously her character was written FOR that story. So of course, removing her from that story would make it boring.

Obviously, if she was never introduced to the series and a story written about Roxas’ time in the Organization had been made, it would clearly be much different.

My point is that regardless of if she makes the story more “interesting”, it’s inconsequential. Replicas already showed signs of having their own and wanting their own identity with Riku Replica and they are further touched upon in KH3, which Xion had no impact over because she was forgotten anyway.

Just because she made Roxas’ story more interesting in Days does not mean she is relevant to the main story and plays any major role in it. Because she isn’t and she doesn’t. My argument was not that she’s not interesting, it’s that she’s useless and irrelevant.

 

[OneDandelion]

Just because she made Roxas’ story more interesting in Days does not mean she is relevant to the main story and plays any major role in it. Because she isn’t and she doesn’t. My argument was not that she’s not interesting, it’s that she’s useless and irrelevant.

I could literally make this argument for most of the characters in this game. With the exception of Sora and Riku almost every other character plays a limited role with little to no “agency” with no direct impact on the story, including Roxas.

Idk what you have against xion in particular. Agree to disagree

 

[*TwilightNight*]

It was a different situation entirely. I understand enjoying the prologue more than days because frankly it was more fun, I just don't understand your gripes about his character in Days because despite the different situations his characters acts almost exactly the same. The only reason he can act caustic, as you like to call it, in the prologue is because hes given more control over his situation and that leads to a more interesting story throughout the time he spends in twilight town. By contrast, the benefit of his lack of control over his situation in Days is that his frustration builds up overtime until his character finally explodes toward the end.

I will admit that Days could be a pretty tedious experience because the plot is slow and the characters don't drive it forward in significant ways but it works in my opinion because their frustrations throughout that story allows Roxas to make a defining choice in the end.

An end that he should have driven. You literally listed the reason why Days did not work for me. Those frustrations adding through his own discoveries and increasing distrust of the Organization would have kept true with his need of truth and lack of patience with others keeping things from him. But then that would make Xion's existence less justifiable because there will be less for her to do. And that's the core issue in my opinion. Roxas was sidelined to give someone else some cause. To add insult to injury, it's legit a rehash of Roxas' own journey in the KHII prologue. I could go on about Days really. I don't like the game for reasons, and I don't give a shit about Xion. I wasted time being thrown a character that no one asked for, wanted, and wasn't even why I bought the game in the first place (hence, the awful reception and more divisive opinions back in the past). That hasn't changed in years. You go ahead and like Xion and what she brought to the table. I don't, point blank.

I could literally make this argument for most of the characters in this game. With the exception of Sora and Riku almost every other character plays a limited role with little to no “agency” with no direct impact on the story, including Roxas.

Days is an extra side story, not a necessary addition. KHII released first, keep this in mind. As I've stated previously, things would have ended the same for Roxas, even if they never proceeded with Days or Xion. Any significance she has is really tied with Roxas and/or Axel, not the overall plot. I presented my case with her.

And since you do keep saying that argument can work with any other character, I'm curious. I'm curious to see which character doesn't affect the overarching Xehanort saga or stuff outside their base game, and can be taken out without having the series have, one, an entire rewrite, two, a stark change, and three, almost an overhaul of themes and organizations and concepts (like Nobodies).

 

[OneDandelion]

Days is an extra side story, not a necessary addition. KHII released first, keep this in mind. As I've stated previously, things would have ended the same for Roxas, even if they never proceeded with Days or Xion. Any significance she has is really tied with Roxas and/or Axel, not the overall plot. I presented my case with her.

And since you do keep saying that argument can work with any other character, I'm curious. I'm curious to see which character doesn't affect the overarching Xehanort saga or stuff outside their base game, and can be taken out without having the series have, one, an entire rewrite, two, a stark change, and three, almost an overhaul of themes and organizations and concepts (like Nobodies).

What has Lea, Terra, Ventus, Roxas, Xion, or Namine accomplished with respect to the overarching Xehanort saga? Nothing. And these are just the protagonists.

They provided Xehanort with a few vessels to use as puppets which he could have found elsewhere. Their stories have had little to no impact on Xehanorts plans and have served as minor inconveniences to him at best. Even Ventus, when revealed as a union leader, has done nothing for the modern story of this game except not form the X-blade for Xehanort and serve as a Guardian of light (which Xehanort could have also found elsewhere). The same goes for the rest. Terra literally just gets norted, all Namine does is help get Roxas back to Sora which could have happened just as quickly by killing him, and Lea doesn't really accomplish anything for either side.

The only characters in this series who are allowed to make an impact on the plot are the ones that have made huge sacrifices, and those sacrifices were primarily just to buy time. Aqua was significant because without her Ventus would have been made into the X-blade, Riku was significant because without him Sora would have died, the only significance Sora really has throughout this whole series is defeating Xehanort and the other bad guys - but whether this is a result of his own strength or the master of masters manipulation is up in the air. And the only choice Sora is really allowed to make is to sacrifice himself to save Kairi.

The only reason Kairi is significant is because she guides Sora back from the dead so he can beat up the bad guys. Kairi has done nothing but serve as another pawn for Xehanort to take in creation of the X-blade which he manages to do in the end anyway.

I mean its fine for you guys to like or dislike certain characters, but if you're going to act like some characters are bad because they don't directly affect the plot of the story then be consistent about it. I don't know why you guys personally like to play these games but I have greatly enjoyed the overarching plot as well as the self contained stories. A character doesn't need to be significant to the story for you to draw significant meaning from their experiences.

 

[Unusual1290]

I could literally make this argument for most of the characters in this game. With the exception of Sora and Riku almost every other character plays a limited role with little to no “agency” with no direct impact on the story, including Roxas.

Idk what you have against xion in particular. Agree to disagree

Every major character has had SOME impact on the story besides her. Me having something “against” has nothing to do with my point. Facts are facts. Whether I stan for her or not, she’s not an important factor to the story at all.

But go off

 

[MrFranklin95]

What has Lea, Terra, Ventus, Roxas, Xion, or Namine accomplished with respect to the overarching Xehanort saga? Nothing. And these are just the protagonists.

They provided Xehanort with a few vessels to use as puppets which he could have found elsewhere. Their stories have had little to no impact on Xehanorts plans and have served as minor inconveniences to him at best. Even Ventus, when revealed as a union leader, has done nothing for the modern story of this game except not form the X-blade for Xehanort and serve as a Guardian of light (which Xehanort could have also found elsewhere). The same goes for the rest. Terra literally just gets norted, all Namine does is help get Roxas back to Sora which could have happened just as quickly by killing him, and Lea doesn't really accomplish anything for either side.

The only characters in this series who are allowed to make an impact on the plot are the ones that have made huge sacrifices, and those sacrifices were primarily just to buy time. Aqua was significant because without her Ventus would have been made into the X-blade, Riku was significant because without him Sora would have died, the only significance Sora really has throughout this whole series is defeating Xehanort and the other bad guys - but whether this is a result of his own strength or the master of masters manipulation is up in the air. And the only choice Sora is really allowed to make is to sacrifice himself to save Kairi.

The only reason Kairi is significant is because she guides Sora back from the dead so he can beat up the bad guys. Kairi has done nothing but serve as another pawn for Xehanort to take in creation of the X-blade which he manages to do in the end anyway.

I mean its fine for you guys to like or dislike certain characters, but if you're going to act like some characters are bad because they don't directly affect the plot of the story then be consistent about it. I don't know why you guys personally like to play these games but I have greatly enjoyed the overarching plot as well as the self contained stories. A character doesn't need to be significant to the story for you to draw significant meaning from their experiences.

Finally, someone freaking gets it.

Whether I agree with all of what he says or not, ya'll can't constantly pick and chose which characters are relevant or not because it's a non-argument. You can pretty much break down any characters' impact on the story to their most basic level and it call irrelevant or unneeded. The entirety of Birth by Sleep was COMPLETELY not needed but the story was created, it had impact, and it touched a lot of people; with Ven, Terra, and Aqua becoming people's favorite characters in the series. You see, I can do that too with another game that "wasn't needed" and it doesn't matter because the writers made it so that it had impact on the overall story, big or small.

Every single character in this series has made a significant impact in the story and has major relevance on the plot, big or small; regardless of if it was created before or after a certain story.

Xion is just as relevant to the story as Ven, Terra, and Aqua. As much as Namine and Roxas. It doesn't matter if she wasnt apart of Roxas' in the beginning but she is now. That's how they wrote it and like it or not, she was largely one of the reasons he left, the reason why we went into depth on replicas (because let's be honest, COM didnt do much on that front at all besides Repliku getting angry a lot about his identity crisis, playing the vague "maybe" game but that was it and Repliku just vanishes in the end) and part of the reason why Sora wakes up, mostly because she motivated Roxas. Therefore, she is relevant to the story. Did we need 358/2 days to explain all that? Honestly... yeah, we did. Just a couple of flashbacks scenes isn't enough to explain what happened over the course of that year. Even at the end of KH2, there was a lot left unexplained other then the basics, which, fine, it's cool if you're fine with what KH2 provided but a lot of people wanted more. And you can't even say it doesn't enhance Roxas' personality because you finally understand why he becomes the way he is by the end of the story. If he was always like how he was in KH2, I'm sorry, but that honestly would've been really uninteresting, kind of lazy, and poor character writing as far as proper character development goes (And I'm talking about Kingdom Hearts for god sakes, the poster child of poor writing decisions and they manage to get this aspect of Roxas right)

Honestly, I apologize for jumping in (I'm more of a lurker then a poster at this point) but I've been hearing these arguments of Xion not being relevant compared to other characters and there actions for YEARS and they just don't make any real sense to me.

 

[Deleted member 252753]

Finally, someone freaking gets it.

Whether I agree with all of what he says or not, ya'll can't constantly pick and chose which characters are relevant or not because it's a non-argument. You can pretty much break down any characters' impact on the story to their most basic level and it call irrelevant or unneeded. The entirety of Birth by Sleep was COMPLETELY not needed but the story was created, it had impact, and it touched a lot of people; with Ven, Terra, and Aqua becoming people's favorite characters in the series. You see, I can do that too with another game that "wasn't needed" and it doesn't matter because the writers made it so that it had impact on the overall story, big or small.

Every single character in this series has made a significant impact in the story and has major relevance on the plot, big or small; regardless of if it was created before or after a certain story.

Xion is just as relevant to the story as Ven, Terra, and Aqua. As much as Namine and Roxas. It doesn't matter if she wasnt apart of Roxas' in the beginning but she is now. That's how they wrote it and like it or not, she was largely one of the reasons he left, the reason why we went into depth on replicas (because let's be honest, COM didnt do much on that front at all besides Repliku getting angry a lot about his identity crisis, playing the vague "maybe" game but that was it and Repliku just vanishes in the end) and part of the reason why Sora wakes up, mostly because she motivated Roxas. Therefore, she is relevant to the story. Did we need 358/2 days to explain all that? Honestly... yeah. We did. Just a couple of flashbacks scenes isn't enough to explain what happened over the course of that year. Even at the end of KH2, the was a lot left unexplained other then the basics, which fine, it's cool if you're fine with what KH2 provided but a lot of people wanted more. And you can't even say it doesn't enhance Roxas' personality because you finally understand why becomes the way he is by the end of the story. If he was always like how he was in KH2, I'm sorry, but that honestly would've been really uninteresting and poor character writing as far as proper character development goes (And I'm talking about Kingdom Hearts for god sakes, the poster child of poor writing decisions and they manage to get this aspect of Roxas right)

Honestly, I apologize for jumping in (I'm more of a lurker then a poster at this point) but I've been hearing these arguments of Xion not being relevant compared to other characters and there actions for YEARS and they just don't make any real sense to me.

I agree and would add that I think whether a character is well written and how their arc ties in thematically/tonally with the rest of a series (or any book/play/film) is ultimately more important than their literal significance in the overall plot, at least for me.

Kairi, for example, is relevant to the plot but her role isn't backed up by her being written as a fully fleshed out character, rather than just a plot device, and this is what I don't like about how she is handled throughout the series.

I think you can apply this to the games themselves too. I think people generally like 352/Days for the game in itself and the characterisation on RAX (sadly I haven't played it myself) rather than it occupying a central role in advancing the main plot of the series.

I think KH3's problem is a little bit that its story is written to link everything else in the series to Foretellers/KHUX stuff, and doesn't show enough concern for writing a good story in itself containing well written characters, and generally resolves character arcs in a very quick perfunctory way in order to move everything along to the next saga

 

[*TwilightNight*]

What has Lea, Terra, Ventus, Roxas, Xion, or Namine accomplished with respect to the overarching Xehanort saga? Nothing. And these are just the protagonists.

They provided Xehanort with a few vessels to use as puppets which he could have found elsewhere. Their stories have had little to no impact on Xehanorts plans and have served as minor inconveniences to him at best. Even Ventus, when revealed as a union leader, has done nothing for the modern story of this game except not form the X-blade for Xehanort and serve as a Guardian of light (which Xehanort could have also found elsewhere). The same goes for the rest. Terra literally just gets norted, all Namine does is help get Roxas back to Sora which could have happened just as quickly by killing him, and Lea doesn't really accomplish anything for either side.

The only characters in this series who are allowed to make an impact on the plot are the ones that have made huge sacrifices, and those sacrifices were primarily just to buy time. Aqua was significant because without her Ventus would have been made into the X-blade, Riku was significant because without him Sora would have died, the only significance Sora really has throughout this whole series is defeating Xehanort and the other bad guys - but whether this is a result of his own strength or the master of masters manipulation is up in the air. And the only choice Sora is really allowed to make is to sacrifice himself to save Kairi.

The only reason Kairi is significant is because she guides Sora back from the dead so he can beat up the bad guys. Kairi has done nothing but serve as another pawn for Xehanort to take in creation of the X-blade which he manages to do in the end anyway.

I mean its fine for you guys to like or dislike certain characters, but if you're going to act like some characters are bad because they don't directly affect the plot of the story then be consistent about it. I don't know why you guys personally like to play these games but I have greatly enjoyed the overarching plot as well as the self contained stories. A character doesn't need to be significant to the story for you to draw significant meaning from their experiences.

You broke down some (not all) of the characters' plot importance to the most basic level, and yet could only manage something with Ven as an argument, rendering your claim [and MrFranklin95's] faulty. What I wrote was:

And since you do keep saying that argument can work with any other character, I'm curious. I'm curious to see which character doesn't affect the overarching Xehanort saga or stuff outside their base game, and can be taken out without having the series have, one, an entire rewrite, two, a stark change, and three, almost an overhaul of themes and organizations and concepts (like Nobodies).

Let's start with BBS, the game that, you know, introduces the main antagonist of the Dark Seeker Saga for the first time and explains how things turned out at the present Kingdom Hearts timeline and why. Already, this makes it the most important addition in the series that's not numbered. And even then Nomura basically called it "0". @MrFranklin95 (does tagging work here...) stating that it wasn't needed is wholly nonsensical and/or wishful thinking. Not that it was your declaration to make, so I'll focus on your reply.

Since you covered Aqua, Ventus thwarted Xehanort from his plans directly, stopping Vanitas from fulfilling the fusion and causing the χ-blade to become unstable. It's the critical key to open Kingdom Hearts and set the universe to turn to void (or whatever the case was with Xehanort's goal). With the battle between Vani-Ven vs. Aqua and Mickey, it was destroyed, rendering the entire set up a failure and pushing back Xehanort enough that we had to wait for KHIII. Xehanort could have chosen another vessel, but Xehanort chose vessels that were easy to manipulate. And were Keyblade wielders. If you can prove that gaining vessels is that easy and he could have used anyone, let me know where he could have found other students or wielders around. Reality is you can't.

And the decisions made by the characters are their own, so unless they will have the same sense of justice and bravery, things turning out just the same would be a roll of the dice at best. And now Ven has some role in this whole KHUx situation. Terra is also crucial, because his blindness also brought these events about, and it was through him that Xemnas and Ansem SoD exist because Xehanort needed a new incarnation to survive. And Xemnas and Ansem SoD are the villains in both KHI and KHII respectively. Terra simply served the antagonists, not the heroes. And it was his Lingering Will that saved them in KHIII. Taking any of this out falls into either the rewrite or overhaul spectrum.

The BBS trio are relevant.

In a similar manner, Naminé is also influential in the villains side, if unwilling. Her being forced to mess with Sora's memories causes consequences, and puts him into a deep sleep to fix it all. A sleep that he needed to wake up from, because he was needed to stop Xemnas from completing his faux Kingdom Hearts. He would have accomplished this ploy otherwise and it would change the world of the game that we know. While I'm not a huge fan of Sora being painted as this Jesus and being so important that everyone has to make certain he's okay only due to "friendship powah" and selflessness, that's how this series works, so.

It's also the same reason why Roxas is significant, though that's arguable, which is fine. It doesn't cause me to lose sleep at night and wake up in nightmares. Still, Sora could not and would not wake up without half of him being returned. It doesn't matter if Roxas was killed for it or returned,. He had to be gone because Sora's sacrificial act of love in KHI brought this whole complication into fruition. That means, for Roxas and Naminé to be taken out, things would require a rewrite of KHI. Or just not have the sequels be the way they were. The KH series as we know it would not exist. Naminé's impact also isn't stuck in CoM. She's important for Sora's recovery and Roxas' acceptance of his fate for him to recover in KHII, she busts Kairi out of jail, conjures up the Corridor of Darkness to lead them home, which brings Kairi home, which in turn brings Sora and Riku home from being stuck in the Realm of Darkness. There has to be a character to do it. And then Naminé goes ahead and saved everyone's asses at the Keyblade Graveyard, preventing a repeat by summoning Lingering Will with her abilities.

Her and Kairi are similar in that their existence is necessary because of their powers. Kairi was able to bring back Sora from being a Heartless, allowing him to roam, stopping catastrophic events from happening by virtue of Sora surviving. Her letter was capable of opening a Door to the Realm of Light, saving Sora and Riku from being stuck at the Dark Beach. And in KHIII, had Sora retain form and not disappear enough for them to turn back time and "change the tides", in Naminé's words.

To switch any of this up could cause unforeseen narrative dips. In fact, the series as it is would not even be. If it's not, for example, Naminé or Kairi themselves, there has to be something there, for that sort of role or object, so things could end the same.

Axel/Lea, you could go off on. I'm in the camp that believes he shouldn't have been elevated to main character status and was way more interesting and less of a joke in Castle Oblivion. I used to adore him, but now he's become a caricature. Nonetheless, he is influential because of his actions in Betwixt and Between (?) and was the reason Naminé was able to stand up to her captors and stop Sora from becoming a puppet by letting her go. Half the castle members wouldn't have been offed as well. Either way, make of him what you will. Like Roxas, he's arguable.

Those two aren't the "majority of the cast".

I can't speak for breaktheice, but I'll speak for myself about Xion. KHII being released first and her not having been thought about is an automatic detriment to her significance. There was no mention of her, no whiff of her, she did not exist because she legit didn't. If Days or her were taken out of the equation, KHII still says that Roxas would have left and things would have transpired how they did no matter what was chosen to be the background reason of why that was. Despite that she's the reason now, doesn't change the fact that she didn't have to be. That's the point about her being unnecessary.

And Days itself works into making her easily removable. To make sure there are no plot holes with KHII, she was written to be forgotten, so no one remembers her or questions their decisions. This is important -- no one, not even Riku, feels something missing, not a single gap in their memories that would have brought them to wonder why they did what they did. Meaning the choices they took made sense without her needing to be there for them. He would have gotten Roxas regardless on Diz's orders because ultimately, it's Roxas that was essential to Sora waking up. Xion disappearing didn't wake Sora up, it was Roxas disappearing that woke him up. Roxas feeling Sora, "why did the Keyblade choose me? I have to know", and the lack of answers is why he left. KHII answered that question. What else? A more in depth look at replicas? That only works for Xion so the audience can empathize with her. It's nothing that Riku Replica hadn't covered in CoM that could be used for KHIII when it comes to pure technicalities. In fact, he was possibly the better replica in terms of what it needed to do. Copied Riku's powers/abilities, looked like him, and was constructed of Riku's data. And DDD confirmed, I think, that empty vessels can house hearts, using Nobodies as a case. KHIII went over that again in bits. Riku Replica alone provides what's needed in terms of lore. Coded dwells more into the Data world and how it works (since data from Twilight Town was needed to help bring Roxas and Naminé back, and the munny Riku took from Roxas from the data Twilight Town actually became real in the real world, in KHII), and...that whole thing was because of Naminé too.

Xion provides nothing innovative, nothing unique (aside from her gender flips), no concepts that hasn't been covered in other games by other characters.

It's hilarious to me how you guys calls Roxas boring, and yet Xion's story is basically a rehash of his own in the KHII prologue except with some Tragedy™ to pull heart strings and dragged on to cover a full game's time. With a dash of Repliku by being a replica. The rest is filled with clock tower meetings and world exploring. And Roxas being confused and whining about being confused. Fun.

And in the end, that's exactly it. Whether Xion is significant or not, it's her addition that causes my disdain. This includes her forced tragedy, as if she's the only character that has ever suffered and needs the sentimental, pretty, crystal "death" and overly long French named theme about her sadness/sad fate to hammer down just how tragic she is. If the game didn't convince you enough I mean. Roxas was robbed of being active in this game for the sake of her having something to do to justify her implementation. These aspects, among others, is the reason why she didn't resonate and why I will never care for her. So really, it's how 358/2 Days handled it that led to my opinion. She joins Ventus in the "characters I just don't give a single shit about". And I already talked about how Ven has played a notable role. If anything, her being unnecessary is more of a side annoyance because I didn't really have to deal with her inclusion.

You either don't care that Xion is insignificant or you do (this comment doesn't just pertain to you either, by the way). These posts consist of arguing how every character matters, and then arguing that even if they don't matter, it's irrelevant to what they bring about with their arc and emotional pull. So...what is it. You can like Xion for that, yet you also have to respect that others won't and don't feel the same way about her. What changes with the effort?

breaktheice, despite all of this back and forth, isn't going to like Xion or change his/her mind about her uselessness. Apparently. Let him/her dislike Xion for that, I don't see what's the problem honestly. That's his/her perception on stuff. You don't need to get it. They obviously don't care what you have to say on the matter, I mean...

 

[OneDandelion]

If you can prove that gaining vessels is that easy and he could have used anyone, let me know where he could have found other students or wielders around. Reality is you can't.

Xion provides nothing innovative, nothing unique (aside from her gender flips), no concepts that hasn't been covered in other games by other characters.

You either don't care that Xion is insignificant or you do (this comment doesn't just pertain to you either, by the way). These posts consist of arguing how every character matters, and then arguing that even if they don't matter, it's irrelevant to what they bring about with their arc and emotional pull. So...what is it. You can like Xion for that, yet you also have to respect that others won't and don't feel the same way about her. What changes with the effort?

breaktheice, despite all of this back and forth, isn't going to like Xion or change his/her mind about her uselessness. Apparently. Let him/her dislike Xion for that, I don't see what's the problem honestly. That's his/her perception on stuff. You don't need to get it. They obviously don't care what you have to say on the matter, I mean...

Listen man I read your post and I'm only responding to what I felt were the important bits because you wrote so much.

1) Xehanort is using 3 different versions of himself as vessels, people from 1000 years in the past, puppets (xion and riku), and other unknown characters. There is no question in my mind that if he needed vessels other than Vanitas or Terranort he would have found them. He even had luxu and MoM helping him considering he was speaking with young xehanort. On top of this there is more evidence that there are additional guardians of light he could have used if needed. So realistically speaking, at best, all BBS and that trio did was buy some time with their story. You can act like thats significant all you want, but the master of masters plan was accomplished via Xehanort's effort and thats all the matters for the overarching story that you restricted me to talking about.

2)I already said I don't care that she's insignificant with respect to the overarching story. I like her story, and I like Roxas' story. It may be inconsequential in the scheme of Xehanorts plan but I think Xion's character is interesting and I think there is more depth and humanity to 358/2 days than all of the other games in the series with the exception of Aqua's game fragmentary passage.

3)I don't care that you don't like Xion, but I really think you're inconsistent when it comes to the way you're judging characters. Obviously I'll never convince you to like Xion and I'm not trying to because clearly you have an irrational hate for her for whatever reason, I'm just pointing out that all of the characters you do seem to like actually aren't very significant at all in the scheme of the overarching story

I mean if you realllllly think about it, the fact that Xion sacrificed herself to save roxas instead of just killing him and absorbing all of Sora's memories actually makes her the MVP of the entire francise. She could have wiped Sora and Roxas out and allowed Xehanort to summon Kingdom Hearts a long time ago but she literally chose death despite knowing she was just a puppet, believing she wasn't human, for the sake of one person that she didn't even know she could feel something for. Like sure, Ven delayed Xehanort's plans, but if Xion didn't sacrifice herself to save Roxas then Sora would have been completely lost.

 

[*TwilightNight*]

1) Xehanort is using 3 different versions of himself as vessels, people from 1000 years in the past, puppets (xion and riku), and other unknown characters. There is no question in my mind that if he needed vessels other than Vanitas or Terranort he would have found them. He even had luxu and MoM helping him considering he was speaking with young xehanort. On top of this there is more evidence that there are additional guardians of light he could have used if needed. So realistically speaking, at best, all BBS and that trio did was buy some time with their story. You can act like thats significant all you want, but the master of masters plan was accomplished via Xehanort's effort and thats all the matters for the overarching story that you restricted me to talking about.

I mean, buying time and thwarting the main antagonist of the Dark Seeker Saga is being significant. It's not even "all I want", it's simply logical, narrative sense. If they didn't, the series as a whole wouldn't be the one you know. That's just...a fact that you can deny all you want. Xehanort isn't using them as vessels, Xemnas, Ansem, and Young Xehanort are all from different places in time, they're simply his other versions. He wouldn't have these other versions, mind you, if he didn't take over Terra. Finding other unknown character vessels like who and what exactly? Travel back in time to KHUx? With MoM and Luxu there? Erm.

And that's still part of the overarching story even if he himself was a tool to be used. Doesn't matter if there's a bigger big bad.

We don't know what the MoM wants yet either or what he's looking to accomplish.

Furthermore, I'll be surprised if no characters are benched after this saga.

2)I already said I don't care that she's insignificant with respect to the overarching story. I like her story, and I like Roxas' story. It may be inconsequential in the scheme of Xehanorts plan but I think Xion's character is interesting and I think there is more depth and humanity to 358/2 days than all of the other games in the series with the exception of Aqua's game fragmentary passage.

Okay. So what is the problem then? Aside from you being triggered due to your "irrational" love for her. See how that feels being used against you.

3)I don't care that you don't like Xion, but I really think you're inconsistent when it comes to the way you're judging characters. Obviously I'll never convince you to like Xion and I'm not trying to because clearly you have an irrational hate for her for whatever reason, I'm just pointing out that all of the characters you do seem to like actually aren't very significant at all in the scheme of the overarching story

I think you do, because you wouldn't be going through all these efforts and incapable of accepting others' opinions about your favorite character. I have my reasons to not give an iota of a damn about Xion and they're just as valid, period. Again, her being unnecessary is secondary, I already explained I have issues with her implementation and how it was handled, which is the primary reason why she did not resonate with me. That's not being irrational. It's called I don't have to agree to your personal opinion about her. I could easily say I can't understand why you like such a basic character that brings nothing new to the table, by concept or personality.

I mean if you realllllly think about it, the fact that Xion sacrificed herself to save roxas instead of just killing him and absorbing all of Sora's memories actually makes her the MVP of the entire francise. She could have wiped Sora and Roxas out and allowed Xehanort to summon Kingdom Hearts a long time ago but she literally chose death despite knowing she was just a puppet, believing she wasn't human, for the sake of one person that she didn't even know she could feel something for. Like sure, Ven delayed Xehanort's plans, but if Xion didn't sacrifice herself to save Roxas then Sora would have been completely lost.

If we're going to go with your mentality, then Riku and Naminé are the actual MVPs if you reeeeeeally think about it. Dragging it out to allow these characters a freedom of choice wasn't something they had to do. Considering how much Xion was with Riku, he could have gotten rid of her ages ago. Same with Roxas. Cause you know, Xemnas wasn't concerned about that for whatever reason.

I already told you why Xion's unnecessary to possibly explain where breaktheice was coming from (and it was to Absent, not you). Flick her and Days off, and nothing changes thereafter. Things will play out the exact same. Because it actually did even without them. There was no Days when KHII released after all.