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Here’s what Xion and kairi need in my opinion!



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Keyblade07

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To begin with I’m not a fan of kairi’s keyblade (And hope it changes in the future) and her battle stance, same with Xion, I hope in the future games she gets her own stance and her own different keyblade keychain, she became her own person no need to copy someone now, same with kairi like get your own stance girl at least one that is cooler then sora’s stance which took me time to get used to lol.

P.s I truly wish Hayden would voice kairi again, voice actress of Xion doing a decent job but she just doesn’t sound like the kairi I know from kh1 and kh2.
 

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It's so odd to not have Hayden voice Kairi for the conclusion of the Dark Seeker Saga.
 

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I generally feel that the series should try less to force-connect them all and should focus more on developing the characters as their own people. Honestly, Sora, Kairi, Naminé, Xion, Roxas and Ventus all feel very similar to me - Kairi feels like a submissive female Sora (sweet, caring, but bland), Ventus feels like a mix of Roxas' anger and Sora's childlike attitude , Xion also feels quite similar to Sora / Kairi and Naminés character is basically completely revolved around feelings of guilt and regret. It's not necessarily about battle stances or voices, it's about development outside of relationships to other characters - who is Xion in absence of Roxas / Axel? What does she like? What does she wish for - except for sitting on a clocktower and eating ice cream?
I'd honestly wish Nomura would diverge the characters into different directions, e.g. some could go exploring, some could dive into science, some could become a Master or a teacher of some sort, some could become Guardians and patrol different worlds - there are a lot of possibilities to develop each character in a manner that suits his / her character (e.g. Riku / Terra could take on difficult cases of people who struggle with darkness and guide them in a very understanding manner). I wouldn't mind if some characters would be reduced to cameos during that process but that would help to round up that clustertruck of characters. Roxas for example wished for a regular school life with friends - let him have that, let's have him appear in a happy afternoon cutscene with HPO and be done with that.
 

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I'm all for more Kairi. Personally I love her character and she's always been one of my favorites. I think people really don't give her enough credit for the things she does and I will still fiercely defend that she is far from useless/has no personality
(but that is an argument for another day).

I generally feel that the series should try less to force-connect them all and should focus more on developing the characters as their own people.
Agree. However...

Sora, Kairi, Naminé, Xion, Roxas and Ventus all feel very similar to me
I'm not going to go into Sora vs Ventus here but I actually really really like that Kairi, Xion and Namine all have very distinct personalities to me and don't actually feel like the same person replicated over three times. Namine is extremely quiet, demure and very very rarely speaks out (only in extreme cases). Xion feels far more troubled and unsure of herself, much more emotionally volatile and seems like the type of person who, if told to sit in a chair and draw a picture for five hours at a time would just about fall over from boredom. Xion is also way more rebellious than Namine and was often much more quick to accept breaking the Organizations rules when necessary, whereas Namine wasn't constantly trying to escape her room in CoM and was more or less silently struggling with herself. In fact, the only time she actually DID break the rules was when she was practically hint-hint-nudge-nudged out the door. That's just comparing the two of them, anyway. Even when they are emotionally upset the two had very different ways of crying, even. Namine is the kind of girl to sort of turn her head and let those big moe silent tears go rolling while Xion full on ugly cries into the sky, haha. While Namine is very very "feminine" in the traditional sense, I feel like Xion exemplifies much more...for lack of a better word, tomboyish characteristics. Both are cute and awesome and to me, very different sorts of people.

Kairi, to me, is the sort of person who lies almost exactly between those two extremes. She has a lot of similar traits to the two of them but is generally more positive and cheerful of a person overall. She's incredibly determined but more confident and far less prone to feelings of helplessness and rage that Xion falls into. While at the same time can be just as patient and able to read people emotionally like Namine seems proficient at without seeming so melancholy. Also the fact that she enjoys keeping a diary seems very Namine-esque.

I love that Kairi has streaks of tomboyishness (considering she was perfectly content romping around with two boys in a cave scratching up the walls). But she also very clearly likes pink and flowers and that's actually why i friggen love her keyblade. Because we can be girls, we can like pink and flowers and we can also like exploring with the boys and getting dirty all at the same time. I get frustrated with complaints that her Keyblade sucks specifically because "its too girly" because it seems to equate that girls can't have it both ways. I think it's great that it exemplifies that Kairi is somewhere right in the middle of the two extremes that her somebody/alt personality exhibit. She is a bridge.

In fact, Kairi actually symbolically is all about connections and tying things/people together. In the first game that was her entire role, to give a reason for Sora and Riku to be tied together throughout the conflict, both trying to compete to save her in their own way. As referenced in CoM, she is what keeps Sora's heart tied to the light/stable. She was able to get Sora to recognize Riku in KH2 by bridging their hands together. Her name literally is a mix of the water and the land (assuming the kanji for "kai" and "ri" which haven't been confirmed as far as I know). If you look at her Keyblade design it shows the roots of the flowers twisting around the blade down to the hilt, connecting it down to the water. She also likes crafting (and sewing presumably due to the stitches on her charm) which is a hobby that is very much about tying things together. This is also seen in the twisting rope that connects the star charm to the bottom of the Keyblade. And, again, she is represented in her charm by the Paopu fruit which, obviously, is about tying people together. Her Keyblade is really cool in not only the choice of materials but the way they are presented on the blade to indicate she ties, links, and bridges two different things together.

All the more cool that Sora's strength is literally drawn from that very premise. That's why I think it's incredibly telling that Sora's "light" is Kairi and that his heart "couldn't exist without her" because she symbolizes connections and the stuff that bind people together. Super cute, I swear.

Kairi feels like a submissive female Sora
So yeah, I suppose the fact that Kairi's cheerfulness kind of makes her a bit like a watered down Sora if you wanna look at it like that, (ignoring the fact that Sora is a lot more than just a bag of sunshine) but she is way, way more patient than him and seems to have a bit more social awareness at times. She also seems perfectly capable, or at least desires to, solve more issues with more diplomatic means. It's probably cheating/non-canon to quote the manga but there's a really great example in the way that Kairi and Sora both confront Seifer when he's being a jerk. She shows him kindness and chats with him a bit and he immediately gets flustered and his anger deflates whereas Sora snipes him in the face with a dollop of whipped cream haha.

Them both being cheerful, to me, shows how good the two of them are together. They both see the world in the same way and I think that's what makes them such a cute pair...or will, if they can every be in the same place for more than five minutes...

The fact that Kairi copies Sora's battle stance is adorable and no one can tell me otherwise.

That all being said: Xion. She needs a new Keyblade. Desperately.
 

OneDandelion

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It annoys me that people dislike Kairi's character simply by virtue of her being a female who needed to be saved. You can call her a "submissive female sora" and "bland" if you want, but the fact that the series has not expanded on her character is not a legitimate reason to call her these things.

Not having a main role in the story does not make her "bland and submissive".

Despite its negative connotations in our current era, "damsel in distress" is a legitimate story trope with considerable significance with respect to character development. The main character in this game is Sora and Kairi has been highly impactful to him. Kairi is not a main character. And as much as I like to see her tomboyish moments as well, her role in this game from the start has been an inspirational one for Sora and Riku. For me, the scenes we have of her being tough, sweet, kind, etc have been enough to say she has fulfilled that role in a meaningful way. She is a strong character, we don't need her killing hordes of heartless to prove that she isnt bland or submissive, imo that would be 100% fan service if done for no other reason.

That being said, if Kairi does become strong and the story works, then great. I only say what I've said because I believe the current state of her character is very good and that people have a bias just because they want to play as her or want more strong females in the game or something.

I also think it would be really cool if Xion got her own keyblade, that would be the most fitting way I can think of to show she has ascended to having her own heart.
 

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Don't know about Kairi, but with Xion I kinda like her copying things, as it gives her the Job Class of 'Mime' and I think gameplay wise it would be fun for her to copy both allies and enemies in the field. There are so many Heartless/Nobodies/Unversed/and bosses I would love to see her mimic in combat. I actually think her copying others would make her unique among the other Keyblade heroes, despite it just being her miming things. As far as her Keyblade goes, as much as I love the Kingdom Key, I'd be down with her getting one more unique for herself.

I also want to parrot what Veevee said and would like to see Xion develop more outside her trio. She hasn't had the chance being dead all this time, but now that she's her own person I would like to see her get something that's unique to her. Both Axel and Roxas have things outside of RAX, now is the time for Xion to do something for herself as well.
 

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It annoys me that people dislike Kairi's character simply by virtue of her being a female who needed to be saved. You can call her a "submissive female sora" and "bland" if you want, but the fact that the series has not expanded on her character is not a legitimate reason to call her these things.

Not having a main role in the story does not make her "bland and submissive".
Doesn't it? The character has no, well, character at all--which is why bland is an appropriate description of her. Her whole existence consists of being a vague love interest, and there's nothing really going on with her in the story or internally. Disney has done the damsel thing for decades, and all their damsel characters are better than Kairi... I mean, compare Snow White, Cinderella, or Belle to Kairi--there is no comparison. The former are much more distinctive characters than Kairi and more inspiring to surrounding characters than her, too. Belle inspires Beast to act like a human being; what has Kairi ever inspired Sora and Riku to do except chase after her because plot shenanigans? If anything, Sora has inspired people to be better in this series, not Kairi.

So it's not even the regressive nature of the role she's been given that's really the problem here. I've personally always been against her getting her own game for this reason, because I don't think devoting more screentime to her or forcing the player to fight Heartless as her will fix the ulterior problem which is that she has no character.
 

OneDandelion

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I mean, compare Snow White, Cinderella, or Belle to Kairi--there is no comparison. The former are much more distinctive characters than Kairi and more inspiring to surrounding characters than her, too. Belle inspires Beast to act like a human being; what has Kairi ever inspired Sora and Riku to do except chase after her because plot shenanigans? If anything, Sora has inspired people to be better in this series, not Kairi.

So it's not even the regressive nature of the role she's been given that's really the problem here. I've personally always been against her getting her own game for this reason, because I don't think devoting more screentime to her or forcing the player to fight Heartless as her will fix the ulterior problem which is that she has no character.
Those are all movies in which the "damsels in distress" are main characters so naturally their struggles and responses to those struggles are more significant. But i'll say it again, this series is not about Kairi. Agree to disagree, but in my opinion Belle was the only character more fleshed out than Kairi is among the three you listed.

There are plenty of defining scenes for Kairi within the series that speak to her as a character. I get the desire to want Kairi to have a bigger role in the story but calling her bland is honestly ridiculous.
 
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In addition to (almost) everything @AmaryllisMoth said;

At least one of them could use a girlfriend.

I only say what I've said because I believe the current state of her character is very good
Just to review, the current state of her character is: got kidnapped and died resulting in her best friend giving his life for hers. "Very good" doesn't seem like maybe a small stretch to you?
 

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At least one of them could use a girlfriend.
A Xion and Namine pairing would actually be kind of adorable, I could see it. Feels like the two of them could really understand each other pretty well and considering the ending they at least like to spend time together.

...Especially since I really don't see Xion and Roxas together-- they feel way more like siblings to me (and considering their origins...but uh, let's not get into that potential landmine of a mental exercise). Roxas and Namine also seems a bit...off. I really like that the two of them felt drawn together because they were feeling echoes of the relationship between Sora and Kairi but as of KH2 I don't really think the two of them had enough time being "themselves" long enough to really know who they were let alone who they would want to date. Now post KH3 maybe they are self stable enough, but I'm sure they would want to be their own people, not just...copying what their somebodies do. I'm also not a big fan of the whole Namine and Riku that came out of nowhere. IF ANYTHING, Riku Replica has got a thing for her, not Riku. Ah, well.
 

AmaryllisMoth

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Why didn’t they use this stance for kairi it looks more original...
Heh...you say that, but then take a look over at the way Riku is standing in the second picture you linked. Aaaand Ven looks pretty similar as well.

I like the idea that Kairi takes her fighting ideas from the people she would have, you know, watched fighting her whole life. Besides, there are only so many ways that people can hold swords before it looks a bit ridiculous.
 

Keyblade07

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Heh...you say that, but then take a look over at the way Riku is standing in the second picture you linked. Aaaand Ven looks pretty similar as well.

I like the idea that Kairi takes her fighting ideas from the people she would have, you know, watched fighting her whole life. Besides, there are only so many ways that people can hold swords before it looks a bit ridiculous.
You don’t really need to point each of their other stances, I know each have a story wise stance other then battle wise stance, but still it would suit her more then the Sora rehash thing, 3 people already use this stance
Sora,kairi,xion

Looks silly tbh in my “opinion”
 

OneDandelion

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Just to review, the current state of her character is: got kidnapped and died resulting in her best friend giving his life for hers. "Very good" doesn't seem like maybe a small stretch to you?
That doesn't seem like a bit of a stretch to you?

She has had plenty more moments in the series than that. I really wouldn't mind if Kairi had some sort of a spin off game as long as its good, but I honestly don't know what kind of character development you guys want out of her or why it is necessary. Do you just want her to have more badass moments or be more independent, or physically stronger? And if so why would these things make her character better?

In my opinion I don't think her character is weak, I'm fairly confident she has had a few self sacrificial moments within the series already. She plays a supporting role, she has a strong heart - for me that is enough to call her noble, but it seems to me like you are comparing her strength to sora and riku and calling her physical weakness a character flaw. At worst, you might be able to call her something of a mary sue considering how nice she is and the fact that she doesn't really undergo any struggles that I can think of that challenge her feelings, but she is also a young princess of heart so her continued kindness is sort of implied, and she is beginning to take a more active role in the story -i f anything, the fact that she was kidnapped, killed, and subsequently got Sora killed is serving as her biggest struggle yet and will be a great springboard for her to get involved in the next games.

If you were given the option to make her character less bland how would you go about it?
 

Keyblade07

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In addition to (almost) everything @AmaryllisMoth said;

At least one of them could use a girlfriend.


Just to review, the current state of her character is: got kidnapped and died resulting in her best friend giving his life for hers. "Very good" doesn't seem like maybe a small stretch to you?
I mean are we pretending if it weren’t for her all of them including Sora would have died in the final battle? Sora May have sacrificed himself for her but this time it’s different at least he can be saved unlike before when he went to the final world as pieces scattered everywhere and only the reason he didn’t fade cause of kairi reaching out for him.
 

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You don’t really need to point each of their other stances, I know each have a story wise stance other then battle wise stance, but still it would suit her more then the Sora rehash thing
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood your reason for posting the pictures. My interpretation was that you were suggesting Kairi's stance in the photo you linked (standing with her left arm up in across her body and her right arm pulled back) would have been an ideal "original" battle stance but I was only trying to point out that in the second photo specifically Riku was standing the exact same way right next to her so it clearly wasn't an original stance but more of a default 'guarded' position they all seemed to do which would defeat the point a bit of it being unique if...everyone does it. Again, sorry if that wasn't what you were trying to say.

In my opinion I don't think her character is weak, I'm fairly confident she has had a few self sacrificial moments within the series already. She plays a supporting role, she has a strong heart - for me that is enough to call her noble, but it seems to me like you are comparing her strength to sora and riku and calling her physical weakness a character flaw. At worst, you might be able to call her something of a mary sue considering how nice she is and the fact that she doesn't really undergo any struggles that I can think of that challenge her feelings, but she is also a young princess of heart so her continued kindness is sort of implied, and she is beginning to take a more active role in the story -i f anything, the fact that she was kidnapped, killed, and subsequently got Sora killed is serving as her biggest struggle yet and will be a great springboard for her to get involved in the next games.
Thank you for this. Agree, 100%.
 

Tartarus

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She has had plenty more moments in the series than that.
Maybe in KH1? :unsure: She tried to save Destiny Islands and brought Sora back out of the darkness at Hollow Bastion. But that was seventeen years ago.

I really wouldn't mind if Kairi had some sort of a spin off game as long as its good, but I honestly don't know what kind of character development you guys want out of her or why it is necessary. Do you just want her to have more badass moments or be more independent, or physically stronger? And if so why would these things make her character better?
I already said that the regressive, passive nature of her role isn't even the problem for me. A damsel character can be likable and interesting, who draws the best out of other characters. Kairi isn't that. As for your saying Kairi isn't the lead of the games like those other characters I mentioned: compare her to Jasmine or especially Megara then, and she pales even greater in comparison. Megara actually has a backstory that provides dimension to her as a character (unlike Kairi being a PoH and from Radiant Garden, which is barely even acknowledged by the other characters and even less by her), individual desires, and an arc.

Even compared to other original KH character damsels, she comes up short. The impact Namine has on Roxas and Riku Replica and even Sora is much stronger than anything Kairi has inspired in Sora and Riku. The same for Ventus; Terra kills his master to save him and Aqua seals her home away to protect him. Xion is the reason Roxas leaves the Organization and part of the reason Lea breaks away from Isa in the end. When Sora needs to be protected post-CoM, Riku lets himself become Ansem in order to be powerful enough.

Anyway, I've said what I intended and I'll leave it there so as not to drag the thread off-course.
 
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If you were given the option to make her character less bland how would you go about it?
So, you're simultaneously strawmanning a direct comparison I never made, and then the entirety of your argument essentially boils down to one long concession that Kairi isn't a strongly written character-- with the inference that people should be comfortable with that because she's been prescribed a particular, functional role that need not extend beyond its own self-imposing limitations. To be clear, that role is one in which she is consistently portrayed with no agency, her major acts of contribution to the story are passive, rooted in powers which she neither controls nor understands, and which have nothing at all to do with her character motives or personal drive towards growth. The last image we have of her in the Xehanort saga is one in which she's left crying because the one person she has a meaningful relationship with in the series is dead, and it's because she was (depicted as) too weak and frail to defend herself. ReMind will likely make this more confounding by trying to course correct and give an idea of how strong Kairi "really" is, which reveals the whole scenario as a thinly plotted gimmick and reinforces her role as little more than a plot device with lines.

The trouble with your argument is that it asserts that exactly all of the qualities of intentionality and personal development which are necessary to form a solid character arc need not apply to Kairi because the brackets placed around her role as a "supporting" player and the accompanying minimization of her humanity within the narrative are self-justifying. Which is not only totally circular logic; it's rooted in a fundamentally flawed perception of how her character writing has been established over time.

I mean are we pretending if it weren’t for her all of them including Sora would have died in the final battle?
Are we pretending that this gave Kairi anything resembling a voice or agency within the narrative? What's interesting is that there's this frame of rhetoric which constantly points towards superficial examples of Kairi's "strength" or plot relevance as indicative of her characterization, then turn around and tell those of us who are detractors with regards to her writing that "she can't be fixed by making her strong!" When you're the only ones making that argument.
 

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So, you're simultaneously strawmanning a direct comparison I never made, and then the entirety of your argument essentially boils down to one long concession that Kairi isn't a strongly written character-- with the inference that people should be comfortable with that because she's been prescribed a particular, functional role that need not extend beyond its own self-imposing limitations. To be clear, that role is one in which she is consistently portrayed with no agency, her major acts of contribution to the story are passive, rooted in powers which she neither controls nor understands, and which have nothing at all to do with her character motives or personal drive towards growth. The last image we have of her in the Xehanort saga is one in which she's left crying because the one person she has a meaningful relationship with in the series is dead, and it's because she was (depicted as) too weak and frail to defend herself. ReMind will likely make this more confounding by trying to course correct and give an idea of how strong Kairi "really" is, which reveals the whole scenario as a thinly plotted gimmick and reinforces her role as little more than a plot device with lines.

The trouble with your argument is that it asserts that exactly all of the qualities of intentionality and personal development which are necessary to form a solid character arc need not apply to Kairi because the brackets placed around her role as a "supporting" player and the accompanying minimization of her humanity within the narrative are self-justifying. Which is not only totally circular logic; it's rooted in a fundamentally flawed perception of how her character writing has been established over time.


Are we pretending that this gave Kairi anything resembling a voice or agency within the narrative? What's interesting is that there's this frame of rhetoric which constantly points towards superficial examples of Kairi's "strength" or plot relevance as indicative of her characterization, then turn around and tell those of us who are detractors with regards to her writing that "she can't be fixed by making her strong!" When you're the only ones making that argument.
Tbh I would say the same for Aqua her character was like kairi she was bland but then 2.0 came and gave her a new character development and made me like her character, but other then that in bbs she was just strong girl who can defend herself, so really both didn’t get the treatment in terms of a character development, the only girls in my opinion had an interesting character and personality’s are larxene, Skuld, strlitzia and probably Xion, they don’t get much screen time but their character has Good development.
 

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It annoys me that people dislike Kairi's character simply by virtue of her being a female who needed to be saved. You can call her a "submissive female sora" and "bland" if you want, but the fact that the series has not expanded on her character is not a legitimate reason to call her these things.

Not having a main role in the story does not make her "bland and submissive".

Despite its negative connotations in our current era, "damsel in distress" is a legitimate story trope with considerable significance with respect to character development. The main character in this game is Sora and Kairi has been highly impactful to him. Kairi is not a main character. And as much as I like to see her tomboyish moments as well, her role in this game from the start has been an inspirational one for Sora and Riku. For me, the scenes we have of her being tough, sweet, kind, etc have been enough to say she has fulfilled that role in a meaningful way. She is a strong character, we don't need her killing hordes of heartless to prove that she isnt bland or submissive, imo that would be 100% fan service if done for no other reason.

That being said, if Kairi does become strong and the story works, then great. I only say what I've said because I believe the current state of her character is very good and that people have a bias just because they want to play as her or want more strong females in the game or something.

I also think it would be really cool if Xion got her own keyblade, that would be the most fitting way I can think of to show she has ascended to having her own heart.
I never say I'd dislike her for that reason alone, I dislike her for several reasons, so why are you putting words in my mouth?

First of all, I dislike how the games handle her. Nomura puts a huge emphasis on trios and SRK seems to be the weakest one - Sora has a unique relationship with Kairi and one with Riku, but Riku's and Kairi's relationship from KH2 onward felt very weird to me. Just because I dislike Kairi as a character doesn't mean I hate every second she's on screen - for example, I actually like the moment she identifies Riku despite his appearance as Ansem and the moment she identifies Sora as a heartless because it gives her a very good insight and heart, which I like in a character. What mostly bothers me about her treatment is that she has a lot of potential to be used well - she's a princess of light (which nobody ever comments upon), instead of earning her keyblade she gets it handed (awful writing decision) and she is completely developed around Sora. Basically every conversation she has is revolved around Sora in some way and that is really tiring and even goes as far as her writing letters to the guy she'll never send. For example, I hated the 0.2 dialogue she has with Riku because instead of acknowledging how much he's grown as a person, she instantly compares him to Sora just because he's become a little more lighthearted. I don't mind a character having a crush or just a support role, but I find it incredibly bland when a character is basically only there as a push for other characters - which wouldn't even be bad by itself, but constantly being kidnapped in every game is really dull. I don't want her to fulfill a "role" (as a damsel in distress is), I want her to be a character. Yeah, stories need roles and we all know that stereotypes are popular because they work, but I like it when stories try to cover up the fact that they use them by making characters more than "the hero" or "the damsel in distress" through giving these characters complex feelings, agencies, struggles. All of Kairi's struggles are related to Sora which is one-dimensional to me.

And yeah, of course there are differences between the characters I mentioned, I didn't doubt that, I wanted to point out that these characters were MEANT to be similar by Nomura, which has the downside that they feel similar in character to me - I mean Roxas and Sora even talk similarly, which is a huge point in KH2. I mainly wanted to point out that I would like to see some characters developed outside of their connections to others and more as a person of their own.
 
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