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Here’s what Xion and kairi need in my opinion!



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AdrianXXII

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If that was the case he wouldn't be a male Kairi, he would be a completely different character. so no.
I think what they're getting at is that a male character given a similar role to Kairi would have still ended up with more agency and been allowed to contribute more to the plot.

Let's compare Ven and Kairi waking up after regaining their hearts and Sora and Kairi's kidnappings.

When Ven woke up from his sleep, Aqua had been fighting to protect him, but suddenly needed to take an L so used her body as a shield to protect him. After waking up he got to swoop in and save her, scaring Vanitas away.

On the other hand when Kairi woke up, Sora had fought of Ansem possessed Riku and sacrificed himself to fade away before she could reach him. She then had to flee because she couldn't fight back when Ansem appeared and then as she's fleeing was able to restore Sora to human after he turned into a heartless.

Sure you can make the point that Ven is a fighter and Kairi wasn't therefore what they got to do after they woke up varied. However the characters being that way was a choice. Kairi could have gotten the keyblade and gained the experience while inside of Sora, but they chose for her not to have and need to flee.

Alright on to the kidnapping. With Kairi she's usually just grabbed and yanked away, no real chances to fight back.
Sora on the other hand was lured into a trap and exhausted via combat, then whisked away once he fell asleep.

So in the boys case they still shown in a strong and capable light where as Kairi is show cased as powerless and helpless.
 

OneDandelion

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I think what they're getting at is that a male character given a similar role to Kairi would have still ended up with more agency and been allowed to contribute more to the plot.

Let's compare Ven and Kairi waking up after regaining their hearts and Sora and Kairi's kidnappings.

When Ven woke up from his sleep, Aqua had been fighting to protect him, but suddenly needed to take an L so used her body as a shield to protect him. After waking up he got to swoop in and save her, scaring Vanitas away.

On the other hand when Kairi woke up, Sora had fought of Ansem possessed Riku and sacrificed himself to fade away before she could reach him. She then had to flee because she couldn't fight back when Ansem appeared and then as she's fleeing was able to restore Sora to human after he turned into a heartless.

Sure you can make the point that Ven is a fighter and Kairi wasn't therefore what they got to do after they woke up varied. However the characters being that way was a choice. Kairi could have gotten the keyblade and gained the experience while inside of Sora, but they chose for her not to have and need to flee.

Alright on to the kidnapping. With Kairi she's usually just grabbed and yanked away, no real chances to fight back.
Sora on the other hand was lured into a trap and exhausted via combat, then whisked away once he fell asleep.

So in the boys case they still shown in a strong and capable light where as Kairi is show cased as powerless and helpless.

I understand what they meant. My point was that a male character created with the same level of control over their situation as Kairi would not receive the same volume of complaints. If Kairi was a male character of course she would be written differently by necessity but that is not what I'm arguing, it has nothing to do with the changes Nomura would want/have to make.

If Ven didn't scare away Vanitas no one would have cared, in fact people were pissed that he did because he robbed Aqua of her moment. I thought that it was kind of stupid too, but only because aqua acted out of character and not because Ven "robbed" aqua of a moment to show her competency
 

Elysium

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No, you're right, it wouldn't receive as many complaints because almost all male characters are active characters with real agency--and the few times a male character is put in the damsel role it doesn't feel like they've been placed in that position because they're male. The opposite is true for female characters. People complain loudly these days because they're tired of every female character being confined to a bland, inferior role simply because they are female.
 

OneDandelion

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No, you're right, it wouldn't receive as many complaints because almost all male characters are active characters with real agency--and the few times a male character is put in the damsel role it doesn't feel like they've been placed in that position because they're male. The opposite is true for female characters. People complain loudly these days because they're tired of every female character being confined to a bland, inferior role simply because they are female.
So then start a new thread about how there isn't enough female representation because it sounds like we're finally at the real problem - Kairis character would be perfectly fine if there were just more female characters with agency.

Hell, lets swap out Yen Sid for the blue fairy
 

SweetYetSalty

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I think what they're getting at is that a male character given a similar role to Kairi would have still ended up with more agency and been allowed to contribute more to the plot.

Let's compare Ven and Kairi waking up after regaining their hearts and Sora and Kairi's kidnappings.

When Ven woke up from his sleep, Aqua had been fighting to protect him, but suddenly needed to take an L so used her body as a shield to protect him. After waking up he got to swoop in and save her, scaring Vanitas away.

On the other hand when Kairi woke up, Sora had fought of Ansem possessed Riku and sacrificed himself to fade away before she could reach him. She then had to flee because she couldn't fight back when Ansem appeared and then as she's fleeing was able to restore Sora to human after he turned into a heartless.

Sure you can make the point that Ven is a fighter and Kairi wasn't therefore what they got to do after they woke up varied. However the characters being that way was a choice. Kairi could have gotten the keyblade and gained the experience while inside of Sora, but they chose for her not to have and need to flee.

Alright on to the kidnapping. With Kairi she's usually just grabbed and yanked away, no real chances to fight back.
Sora on the other hand was lured into a trap and exhausted via combat, then whisked away once he fell asleep.

So in the boys case they still shown in a strong and capable light where as Kairi is show cased as powerless and helpless.
I'm still pretty bitter at how the female returns were handled as opposed to the boys. Ventus, Roxas, and Terra got such triumphant heroic returns to make the bad guys retreat, while Aqua and Xion got jobbed out in their returns. That's a topic for another thread though. Don't know if ReMind can ReMedy it.
 

Elysium

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So then start a new thread about how there isn't enough female representation because it sounds like we're finally at the real problem - Kairis character would be perfectly fine if there were just more female characters with agency.

Hell, lets swap out Yen Sid for the blue fairy
I'm not trying to attack you, but I can't agree it's the real problem... That was only a response to the general statement about male and female characters you'd made, and I probably wrote it too strongly (it reads more angry than I intended now I'm reading it back half a day later, probably shouldn't have used the italics); feel free to make that topic if you want. As I said back on the first page, to me the real problem is unique to Kairi because there are other damsels in the series that don't have the writing issues / flaws that Kairi does.
 

AdrianXXII

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I understand what they meant. My point was that a male character created with the same level of control over their situation as Kairi would not receive the same volume of complaints. If Kairi was a male character of course she would be written differently by necessity but that is not what I'm arguing, it has nothing to do with the changes Nomura would want/have to make.

If Ven didn't scare away Vanitas no one would have cared, in fact people were pissed that he did because he robbed Aqua of her moment. I thought that it was kind of stupid too, but only because aqua acted out of character and not because Ven "robbed" aqua of a moment to show her competency
I'd like to agree with you on that, but I'm pretty sure it'll just be another group of people complaining. Peta from Hunger Games comes to mind as an example of a more passive male lead that got heavily criticized for not being "manly" enough.

So then start a new thread about how there isn't enough female representation because it sounds like we're finally at the real problem - Kairis character would be perfectly fine if there were just more female characters with agency.

Hell, lets swap out Yen Sid for the blue fairy.

I personally feel like Kairi's character treatment wouldn't be perfectly fine, even if there were more female characters with more agency.

She comes off like a character about to start on her own journey to grow and help her friends, which she constantly says she wants to. However each time she seems about to take a step the rug under her is pulled and she remains basically where she started. I find this frustrating and I feel even with a male character in this position it'd be annoying.
 
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Kairi does seem to spend a lot of time either dead (in various ways), locked up, or just somewhere else.
Throughout the series, Kairi is little more than a plot device to motivate the male protagonists, rather than a character in her own right. When present, she is also often written with a bland, saccharine personality.

So I found it disappointing that, even when Kairi does do something in KH3 and saves Sora, she comes across as particularly wooden. She doesn't really show any personality in that scene, other than an exaggerated girlish giggle, which is a shame because I thought she was written fairly well in earlier scenes.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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So I found it disappointing that, even when Kairi does do something in KH3 and saves Sora, she comes across as particularly wooden. She doesn't really show any personality in that scene, other than an exaggerated girlish giggle, which is a shame because I thought she was written fairly well in earlier scenes.
I absolutely agree with this to an extent. Kairi's monologue about Namine early on in the game was easily some of her best diologue post-KH1, but the later events of the game just destroy that set-up completely.

When the GoL all gather at the Mysterious Tower, recall that when Sora brings up how Roxas, Namine, and Terra couldn't be there with them (yet he doesn't bother to contact Ienzo, who now has a working vessel), Kairi responds by saying: "Namine is right here, safe with me. I know that we'll find a way to help her. Trust me, I'm not giving up."

But then what do we see at the Keyblade Graveyard? After failing to defend herself from Terranort (and later Xemnas), Kairi then proceeds to get both her AND Namine killed twice... So not only does she not have a hand in bringing Namine back whatsoever, not only does she not have any diologue with her, but she inadvertently gets the poor girl offed twice because Kairi couldn't even protect her own life, let alone Namine's.

None of this BS would've happened if Nomura and Co. hadn't been so insistent on repeatedly damsel-ing her AGAIN.
 

SweetYetSalty

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I absolutely agree with this to an extent. Kairi's monologue about Namine early on in the game was easily some of her best diologue post-KH1, but the later events of the game just destroy that set-up completely.

When the GoL all gather at the Mysterious Tower, recall that when Sora brings up how Roxas, Namine, and Terra couldn't be there with them (yet he doesn't bother to contact Ienzo, who now has a working vessel), Kairi responds by saying: "Namine is right here, safe with me. I know that we'll find a way to help her. Trust me, I'm not giving up."

But then what do we see at the Keyblade Graveyard? After failing to defend herself from Terranort (and later Xemnas), Kairi then proceeds to get both her AND Namine killed twice... So not only does she not have a hand in bringing Namine back whatsoever, not only does she not have any diologue with her, but she inadvertently gets the poor girl offed twice because Kairi couldn't even protect her own life, let alone Namine's.

None of this BS would've happened if Nomura and Co. hadn't been so insistent on repeatedly damsel-ing her AGAIN.
I wonder how much of Kairi's speech Namine even heard or felt? In the Final World she was complaining that nobody misses her, so she clearly isn't that connected with Kairi's heart or her feelings because she should know Kairi gave a beautiful speech on wanting to save her. I thought Namine was suppose to be able to still be aware of things within Kairi like Roxas within Sora because they didn't disappear, so that Final World comment just feels like it came out of nowhere when she's been name dropped several times with Roxas throughout the game. Had it been Xion or Repliku who said that, yeah it would make sense, none of the heroes were planning to save them.
 

OneDandelion

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I'd like to agree with you on that, but I'm pretty sure it'll just be another group of people complaining. Peta from Hunger Games comes to mind as an example of a more passive male lead that got heavily criticized for not being "manly" enough.

I personally feel like Kairi's character treatment wouldn't be perfectly fine, even if there were more female characters with more agency.

She comes off like a character about to start on her own journey to grow and help her friends, which she constantly says she wants to. However each time she seems about to take a step the rug under her is pulled and she remains basically where she started. I find this frustrating and I feel even with a male character in this position it'd be annoying.

To put all of this into perspective, Kairi has not really even been involved in the events of the story as long as Sora or Riku have. I know to a lot of you guys it feels like Kairi has done nothing forever, but Kairi's opportunities to actually do things have only really spanned the ending of KH2, dream drop distance (which doesn't even take place in real time) and KH3.

For half of KH1 she's comatose and when she wakes up she returns to the island, half of KH2 shes on the island until shes kidnapped and brought to the end of the game, after KH2 DDD happens during the time span of maybe a week and she summons her keyblade, then KH3 happens and she trains and goes into battle against keyblade master equivalents.

My point is that not as much time has passed as you might be perceiving, and much of the time that has passed was time that Kairi spent without memory of events, unconscious, or simply without a keyblade. You guys can call that bad storytelling if you want but the series of events that have occurred thus far with respect to her character have made perfect sense to me. So you guys can debate whether or not she should have picked up a keyblade sooner but it doesn't really matter and won't change anything, if you don't like the way her character is written I don't know what to tell you at this point cause we're pretty deep into the series. If she gets a bigger role in the next games I wonder if you will all be saying the same things about her role in the earlier games of the series.
 

Twilight Lumiair

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I wonder how much of Kairi's speech Namine even heard or felt? In the Final World she was complaining that nobody misses her, so she clearly isn't that connected with Kairi's heart or her feelings because she should know Kairi gave a beautiful speech on wanting to save her.
All the more reason Kairi and Namine should've had some freaking diologue with eachother! 😣The fact that they don't even share a scene together (on top of her repeatedly failing to keep Namine "safe") pisses all over her speech.

I thought Namine was suppose to be able to still be aware of things within Kairi like Roxas within Sora because they didn't disappear, so that Final World comment just feels like it came out of nowhere when she's been name dropped several times with Roxas throughout the game.
Actually, it's heavily implied that Namine and Roxas are only ever partially conscious through Kairi and Sora, or they're just outright "asleep" all together. In the end of DDD, DiZ said that Roxas slept "in the darkest depths of Sora's heart", and in KH2 he didn't think Roxas was capable of hearing him at all during his final moments. Similarly, Xemnas said Roxas only "awoke" in Sora directly due to Axel's death. So while there were moments where Roxas showed some level consciousness, it's clearly not a constant the way most people would expect. Hence why he's suffering (in addition to not having any sort of agency of his own in).


Also, during KH3 we hear Kairi confirm pretty definitively that Namine can't see, hear, or feel the things she can (despite what we see in the ending of KH2, so again it seems like she's only aware a fraction of the time), so it makes sense that Namine would never be able to tell anyone really missed her. She's essentially in a soundless, picture-less void whenever she's not momentarily looking through Kairi's eyes.


So yeah, I imagine the two just drift in and out of consciousness for the most part, lol. Sometimes they see things, but most of the time they can't.
 
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Xion is honestly the most useless character imo. She holds no significance at all. The main story could’ve gone exactly the same way without her. I can’t even see her having any importance in the next saga either.
 

Absent

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I’m not gonna argue the “useless” part but I never understood the “story could’ve happened without her” argument. Like it happened because they wanted to create and use a character as a catalyst.
Not only that, that argument opens a whole can of worms in arguing everyone’s importance to the tiniest details.
 

*TwilightNight*

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KHIII's biggest slap in the face to me was doing Kairi and Naminé dirty. They were both used for trophies despite that it didn't need to be the case. Out of Naminé's connections and bonds, like Roxas and Kairi, Nomura used Riku Replica? Because he has such affection for this character now? So screw all with Naminé right. It's Riku Replica that he's going to focus on getting closure. And he utilized Naminé as a tool for it (the girl didn't even get a say in all of this) when she...when did she care about him again? My, I don't believe there's any build up to this, oh gee.

Larxene, Kairi, and Naminé. All of them got relegated to be male fodder devices. Because what else can motivate women, right? Nomura sure as hell doesn't know! Even Strelitzia. She's worse than Kairi if that's even possible, such a non-character. And with a Keyblade. She existed to humanize Marluxia and give him onii-chan angst.

I’m not gonna argue the “useless” part but I never understood the “story could’ve happened without her” argument. Like it happened because they wanted to create and use a character as a catalyst.
Not only that, that argument opens a whole can of worms in arguing everyone’s importance to the tiniest details.

Xion is a character that's smacked dab in a "mid-quel" of sorts. 358/2 Days is a self contained story, and Xion's own arc is basically KHII Roxas 2.0 [Expanded Edition]. You even have Riku as the supportive "Naminé" role. The concepts and theme shas been covered by both her friend and Riku's replica.

Furthermore, with or without Xion, KHII would have happened the same way concerning Roxas. Because it did happen before her conception/before she existed. He left the Organization, had an out with Axel, got captured, and is still the piece missing to wake up Sora. "Days" could've been anything.

Aside from cameos after, Xion does not affect anything else either. She's simply tied to the relationship with Axel and Roxas.

Xion isn't like other characters in which the series would have to do an overhaul or change certain aspects if they were taken out because they have had a hand in events beyond their introductory game. This includes Kairi (yes, yeees), Riku, Naminé, Roxas, Aqua, Axel/Lea, and Terra. Ventus can be debated, but I don't care enough about him to put effort in his defense. Someone else can though.
 

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It's funny, I didn't like Roxas's story that much until they added Xion to it and created RAX, my all time favorite group in the series (and the main reason I played KH3, and the main reason I wanna play ReMind lol) . So for me she was a very important character in that she got me more invested in Roxas's character, who is now my favorite character in the series. And by getting invested in Roxas I got invested in the Organization which is now one of my favorite elements in the series. I also got more invested in Replicas thanks to Xion, and now want Vexen Reports...screw it I want a Replica game. We can call it "Replica Revolutionaries!"

It's also a good thing I don't really care for the main story of Kingdom Hearts, so how "useful" a character is to the main plot doesn't automatically make them a favorite for me. I play Kingdom Hearts for the characters, not it's story. Among the three Kairis, Xion is easily my favorite and most fleshed out in terms of her character, desires, hobbies, background, personalty, and all her struggles, Imo. And she did it all in one game, compared to other characters who have appeared way more then her and aren't even half as developed as Xion. I feel like a actually know everything about her character and how she operates...well except how she got out of Sora, come on ReMind don't let me down XD

I know Xion will never be a universally loved character and that doesn't bother me. I respect and like hearing opinions that are different then mine if done civil. No, she didn't need to be introduced, but I'm glad they did. 358/2 Days was the game that truly sold me on KH being my favorite game series and Xion was a big part of that.

Also Xion isn't cool because she's in RAX. RAX is cool because Xion is in it :)
 

OneDandelion

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Xion is honestly the most useless character imo. She holds no significance at all. The main story could’ve gone exactly the same way without her. I can’t even see her having any importance in the next saga either.
Honestly, without 358/2 days roxas' character would be boring. She also serves as a character study on the replicas which would otherwise seem inhuman without her.

In a lot of ways I think Xion is one of the most "human" characters within this series which is extremely important for the idea that replicas can be "people" and hold hearts, or that hearts can develop within a replica. Her character has made significant contributions to the series but they're also fairly nuanced. Imo her character would have benefited greatly from a second game or 358/2 days being more involved because she simply doesn't get enough time for the player to really care about her.
 

*TwilightNight*

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You wouldn't know what Roxas' story would have been without Xion, so what are you comparing it to. It would be less about Xion and more about if 358/2 Days (whatever other title it would've been given) is necessary for Roxas as a character. There could be a lot of implementations, concepts, interactions, etc., that would have added depth to him. With his ties to a majority of the characters, along with his questionable friendship with Axel and its fallout (the Duo), he wouldn't have needed Xion there.

And it's not about liking or not liking Xion, but rather about her lack of role in the overarching narrative of the saga/series, not just one game. We already had Nobodies, we already had a replica. Therefore she's unnecessary. If one appreciates her addition, again, that's more of a personal opinion and entirely subjective. Hence, breaktheice16 here. And myself. I don't care about her.

I also have my opinions on RAX, but that'll derail the topic.
 

OneDandelion

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You wouldn't know what Roxas' story would have been without Xion, so what are you comparing it to. It would be less about Xion and more about if 358/2 Days (whatever other title it would've been given) is necessary for Roxas as a character.

And it's not about liking or not liking Xion, but rather about her lack of role in the overarching narrative of the saga/series, not just one game. We already had Nobodies, we already had a replica. Therefore she's unnecessary.
Jesus Christ, this again. I'm honestly at my limit for talking about this.

I'm just going to say:
1.) Saying "Roxas' story might be better without Xion" is a non argument. It might have been substantially worse, its impossible to know, so why does it matter?
2.) Saying she is unnecessary to the story while at the same time saying that the story might be better without her is actually self contradictory. If she doesn't add anything why would you even suggest that her removal would affect the story at all? Because of course it would, she played a huge role in motivating Roxas to leave the organization.

It's not like male characters are even better written than female ones in this series. Some group of people keep arguing that female characters don't have "agency" but the male characters don't really have "agency" either they just have more screen time. The only ones who have made conscious decisions about what they're doing is probably Riku and Aqua, the rest are basically different degrees of Sora that have no idea whats happening and things just work out because they have strong hearts. Just fighting heartless and being on the screen while giving a few lines does not give a character agency or make them interesting.

Hell, even compared to Sora, Xion at least makes her own decisions about her sacrifice. Sora basically goes from screen to screen not understanding anything and coming out on top because hes the main character. 358/2 days was the most human story in the series because of Roxas and Xion, the only agency Sora was given in KH3 was his sacrifice to save Kairi at the end.
 
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