Disappointed with the 13 vs 7 battle



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Nexale

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I'm not sure if someone has already talk about this, but I'm a little disappointed with the final battle. I mean, it just doesn't feel like a battle at all, it was just more like... Sora babysitting each and every other guardian. While I watched it, I couldn't stop thinking that everything would have been infinitely more simple if Sora just went alone, because none other character actually do nothing. Why do you set a confrontation between 20 character if 18 of them (because every Nort except Xehanort seems to be just an inconvenience rather than a threat) is irrelevant? I know that they need to forge the X-blade but it still feels a little waste potential.

I mean, is a game about friendship, isn't it? So, wouldn't it be better if they all contribute to the cause, to be in line with all of that "my friends are my power" and "all for one and one for all"? For example, without regarding if the game was better or worse, I loved the final confrontation in 3D. Every character is useful, and has its minor twists: Mickey use Parozza, Riku defeat Young Xehanort, Ansem and Xemnas defeat them both, but then come Lea to save the day until Saïx put him against the ropes, just for Donald and Goofy to appear and release Mickey and Riku. I think it's a great fight, even if it doesn't have so good graphics and sparks everywhere.

But in KH3 there is nothing like that. It's just the Norts overwhelming the guardians once and again with their strength, just to be saved every time for Sora Sue or Deux ex Machina Terra and Roxas without any kind of tension. And is kind of loathsome, because we have an entire saga building the image of characters as Mickey, Riku or Aqua being extremely powerful and skilled just for loose all the final fights. I'm the first one that likes a twist in which, instead of Riku saving Sora, Sora saves Riku for once, for a change... but not constantly. Makes them both useful, like equal friends: make them fight together and use a dual combo as they did at the end of KH2.

I suppose I just would have wanted every character to have their stelar moment being in track with their personality. Aqua excels at magic barriers, so she could have protected the group, while Lea has great area attacks, so he could have been the one to get ride of the million shadows. Ventus is the fastest of them all, so he could have advance while the rest fight back and deal with a Dark Side. And Mickey and Riku are sharing "combos" since KHCoM, so they could just done a "shadow and light" attack. (And Kairi... well, if she just have managed to get over her Stocolm Syndrome and don't get kidnapped for a third time, that would just be enough). Just one scene to show all of them fighting and taking advantage of their strong points while covering for each other weak ones. I think it would completely change the total impression of global inutility.

So, if I haven't bored all of you enough to read until this point, what are your thoughts? Am I being to picky or you think that it would have been better if the guardians get an opportunity to fight back?
 

Sephiroth0812

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Without going too much into detail, yes, I too think that the other original characters were delegated to be just background decoration way too much during the marathon of "final battles" after reaching the Keyblade Graveyard.

KH III did exactly the "Sora does everything"-crap I feared it would do reducing the rest of the cast to just bystanders allowed to participate in a single battle as mere assists at most.
 

Divine Past

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A way to get around this would have been for the player to be able to control a different hero of light for the fight sequence rather than just waiting for Sora to show up.

Off the top of my head, the only ones that Sora needed to be present for were the Mickey one (because Disney might not want Mickster killing humanoid shape villains) and the Isa/Xion ones due to Roxas. Sora did not really need to be there for the Repliku one or Terranort ones (Maybe I missed something since I only play through it once).

My biggest issues were Sora telling everyone else to let me fight Xehanort alone and everyone went K. The reason for this was so flimsy too. I understand maybe it would have been too much effort to rewrite the Xehanort fight so all 7 guardians or how many are left fight him but at least give better reasoning why Sora was allowed to go almost alone.
 

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This is quite literally the most "rushed" component of the entire game, it doesn't feel well paced because it's quite literally a war zone. At the very least there could've been instances where you get captured or bound while playing as Sora (See Xemnas fight KH2) and you swap to a different character to emphasize your play as that character. It would make me feel they were substantially more involved in each skirmish. Just an idea at least.
 

Alpha Baymax

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Mickey going against Luxord, Marluxia and Larxene just felt weird when there's no connection there. I was also expecting Marluxia to give a revenge speech about how Sora bested him in Castle Oblivion, but both of them only speak after they are defeated.
 

Nexale

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My biggest issues were Sora telling everyone else to let me fight Xehanort alone and everyone went K. The reason for this was so flimsy too. I understand maybe it would have been too much effort to rewrite the Xehanort fight so all 7 guardians or how many are left fight him but at least give better reasoning why Sora was allowed to go almost alone.
YES, precisely that. And, besides, what was exactly the problem they were fighting? I don't recall the exact words but I think was something in the line of "holding against the dark/Kingdom Hearts", but what on earth that suppose to mean? We didn't see any heartless in the video, just weir purples bubbles holding from the sky. I think they pretend to do another "Maleficent and Pete holding against the shadows in KH2", with the minor difference that they were truly secondary characters taking a secondary role, and that the shadows were, you know, real and physically present. But in KH3... it's just like they stay behind just because, only to show up once Xehanort is defeated like "we're done with whatever unknown and irrelevant thing we were just doing". And then... they, again, just stand. The man right there in front of them was the source of all their pain! Why none of them do nothing? Why Riku doesn't complain about him killing his other best friend? Why the clock-tower trio looks like they were there by mistake because they belong to another story? Why none Ven, Aqua or Terra complains about Xehanort leaving in peace after all he has done? But, yes, they all raise their keyblades to seal the keyhole Sora could have perfectly lock alone, like he have just done in all previous game. I really had the urge of turning off the PS4 after seeing it...

Alpha Baymax said:
I was also expecting Marluxia to give a revenge speech about how Sora bested him in Castle Oblivion, but both of them only speak after they are defeated.
To say the truth, almost all villain intervention seems quite odd to me. Most of them were like "we truly don't want to be here anyway"... so why were you there anyway? Marluxia and Larxene, but specially the last, was the worse: are you truly telling me that you have almost allowed an old man to take control of your body and provoke the end of the world to hang out with Marluxia? Couldn't you, I don't know, grab him out off the Organization he neither had reasons to be with, and hang out like humans? It's just insane.

And Marluxia and Larxene, liked them or not, were great villains in CoM from a narrative stand-point. I expected Sora to remember what happened there and confront them. I expected them to have even just once dialogue with Axel: they failed because of him! And they are villains! Revenge is good for villain characters! And is best served cold! Why on earth are they fighting Mickey? Saïx battle ends up being a three against one, why wouldn't do a Mickey, Roxas, Xion, Lea and Sora against Saïx, Luxord, Marluxia and Larxene? That would have been great and more meaningful for everyone. Almost all the organization in battle! Traitors against traitors!

Really, it couldn't all have been more loathsome if planned...
 

Divine Past

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YES, precisely that. And, besides, what was exactly the problem they were fighting? I don't recall the exact words but I think was something in the line of "holding against the dark/Kingdom Hearts", but what on earth that suppose to mean? We didn't see any heartless in the video, just weir purples bubbles holding from the sky. I think they pretend to do another "Maleficent and Pete holding against the shadows in KH2", with the minor difference that they were truly secondary characters taking a secondary role, and that the shadows were, you know, real and physically present. But in KH3... it's just like they stay behind just because, only to show up once Xehanort is defeated like "we're done with whatever unknown and irrelevant thing we were just doing". And then... they, again, just stand. The man right there in front of them was the source of all their pain! Why none of them do nothing? Why Riku doesn't complain about him killing his other best friend? Why the clock-tower trio looks like they were there by mistake because they belong to another story? Why none Ven, Aqua or Terra complains about Xehanort leaving in peace after all he has done? But, yes, they all raise their keyblades to seal the keyhole Sora could have perfectly lock alone, like he have just done in all previous game. I really had the urge of turning off the PS4 after seeing it...
And just thinking about it logically, there were like 13 keyblade wielders avaliable and somehow they came to the conclusion that all of them but Sora had to stay outside to stop this vague threat of darkness. I was supposed to believe that Terra/Ven/Aqua really could not join Sora because 8 keyblade wielders were not enough to stop whatever was happening.

At least have Xehanort teleport Sora or trap to explain why the battle was like that. It makes everyone but S/D/G look like geeks because they stayed on the sideline and choose not to take on the big bad.
 

KeybladeLordSora

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I have a feeling part of the reason why it's "All Sora" and "SDG" was because a bunch of people wouldn't shut up about wanting a game where Sora is the sole playable character with D and G as your only party members aside from guest Disney characters, and wanting D and G to be important again due to not doing a thing since 2.

Hope I'm wrong.
 

Zettaflare

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Personally I'm happy that Donald and Goofy were the ones to aid Sora in defeating Xehanort. I thought they would be forgotten after being left behind to hold back the Heartless.
 

fantasy08

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Exactly. This was no battle of 7 Lights vs 13 Darks this was the story of 1 Light(Sue Sora) vs 13, and if Equas new chess game is any indication we're about to get a repeat ugh.

Blackhole Sora took precedent even though this series should have stopped being just his story once Days and BBS came out.

Examples

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 
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AdrianXXII

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I agree Sora felt shoehorned in. I get that they wanted the player to be able to fight each member, but they could of had us fight some of them on the Disney worlds they appear on then have those taken down by different Guardians in the final show down.

Alternatively Sora could have taken a backseat to some of these send off cutscenes like he did with the Evil Riku Replica. Have the TAV scenes and the RAX scenes be just about them.

I also dont get why Riku and Mickey got solo fights. It could have been nice to have Riku unied by Kairi in the fight against his dark past and Axel face the traitors he betrayed along with Mickey.

This would also give Axel and Kairi more time as your partners than the 5 min they got in their own original battle.
 

alexis.anagram

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Exactly. This was no battle of 7 Lights vs 13 Darks this was the story of 1 Light(Sue Sora) vs 13, and if Equas new chess game is any indication we're about to get a repeat ugh.

Blackhole Sora took precedent even though this series should have stopped being just his story once Days and BBS came out.

Examples

Spoiler Spoiler Show
Just wanna say I love this post and the truths it speaks. Also definitely bookmarking the terms "Sora Sue" and "Blackhole Sora" in my lexicon. Both are a fitting way to describe his role in KH3, which actually surprised me in how it gave me cause to dislike Sora, whereas I've never really seen him as a problematic hero before. Now he's just kind of obnoxious and unsympathetic to me, and when I contrast him with other, more well-rounded characters who live their own conflicts rather than insinuating themselves into others' as a substitute for true characterization, eh. Not interested in following another series of Sora sequels.
 

Megavoltage

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A way to get around this would have been for the player to be able to control a different hero of light for the fight sequence rather than just waiting for Sora to show up.
Yeah, that would have been good. Instead of Riku floundering against a Demon Tower or Aqua embarrassing herself with the Land of Departure fiasco this would have been a better place for playable characters.

My biggest issues were Sora telling everyone else to let me fight Xehanort alone and everyone went K. The reason for this was so flimsy too. I understand maybe it would have been too much effort to rewrite the Xehanort fight so all 7 guardians or how many are left fight him but at least give better reasoning why Sora was allowed to go almost alone.
This left me completely flabbergasted on my first playthrough when it didn't happen. Of course the guardians of light would eventually show up and help Sora against the super powerful Kaiblade wielder, right? Any moment now! All the people Xehanort accosted over the years finally get revenge and also repay Sora for saving them. Shouldn't this sort of scene write itself? But the grand final to the Dark Seeker Saga is just squawking and hyucking. I have nothing against the duck and dog but this fight should have been shared with everyone. What were the writers thinking?
 

Nexale

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Personally I'm happy that Donald and Goofy were the ones to aid Sora in defeating Xehanort. I thought they would be forgotten after being left behind to hold back the Heartless.
I don't mind that Donald and Goofy help Sora in defeating Xehanort, I'm only bothered about them being the only ones helping Sora. Is like Divine Past said, why couldn't they prescinde of at least other 2 or 3 guardians to make presence in the final clash? And, besides, it's not like Donald and Goofy were being relevant either just for appear: they are like Sora's two shadows but nothing more; they don't have a real clash with Xehanort like independent characters with their own motivations and personal history with him... so, Sora Sue again.

alexis.anagram said:
Also definitely bookmarking the terms "Sora Sue" and "Blackhole Sora" in my lexicon. Both are a fitting way to describe his role in KH3, which actually surprised me in how it gave me cause to dislike Sora, whereas I've never really seen him as a problematic hero before.


That's sadly true. Sora has never
being one of my favorite character in the series (I'm more in the dark side), but even so, I always being quite fond of him. His naivety usually looks like stupidity, yes, but somehow it gives him an special charisma. Specially, because he has always be the contrary of a Sue: since KH1 he was a normal kid, somehow choose from a destiny he doesn't truly understand, who just wanted to save his friend even if he doesn't have the necessary strength. More usually has been other characters the ones who has being saving Sora: he completely falls in Marluxia's plan in CoM and if Donald and Goofy wouldn't have save him from Larxene, Axel wouldn't have release Naminé, and Riku wouldn't have managed to bring Roxas back so he could wake up, that would have being the end of Sora. And that's why it was so satisfactory when he finally manages to take down the Big Boss, because he truly has to fight for it.

And, above all, one of my favorite moments in KH2, even if it's quite unimportant, is when he draws back from the fight between Simba and Scar. And that is because he understand that is Simba's fight. He doesn't need to take the spotlight. He is just helping his friend when in need, and let him take his own challenges. I think is very mature from him to realize that: that sometimes he has to intervine, but others is better to stay behind. That's why what happens in KH3 is more painful. Is not only that the others protagonist lose value, is that Sora himself lose value with that "Sora Sue" characterization.

fantasy08 said:
Also it ruined Lea's line to Saix at the clocktower about bringing him back to.


That line and that other of "I'll always be there for bring you back" to Xion. Why, why is Sora the one who remembers Xion? He doesn't even know her. It should have being Lea, or Roxas, the ones who recover her memory. It could even have being Riku, because they build a strong bond of confidence in Days ("Riku, what should I do?"/"You should think what is better for everyone, including your friends") that has sadly never being addressed again in the series. Naminé and her powers over memory could have been an option, as last resource. But Sora? Why? It just destroy every relationship Xion ever had.

And, really, to have Lea watch all the fight from a corner, they could have at least give the poor man popcorns or something. It just feel so wrong, moreover because he doesn't fight because his keyblade was destroyed... only to be in a perfect state in the next scene. And, even without keyblade, doesn't he still have chakrams? Why don't have at least one trio fighting all together?

fantasy08 said:
Sora Vs Ven's Darkness Vanitas . Yes Ven's darkness.


While, meantime, if I recall correctly, Aqua disappears from the scene like she never has been there in the first place. Why not? Is not like she ever fight Vanitas in the past and also has a story with him as an enemy... Surely Sora dialogue was more dramatic and relevant at that point.

fantasy08 said:
To have Sora, and two freakin Disney characters, alone beat the strongest and biggest bad in the series, who he really had no personnel ties to until about 10 minutes ago, is a story sacrilege I will never get over.


Amen.

Aditionally, I also deeply love the fact that both times a trio is reunited, Sora and camera moves alone so you have no idea of how they truly solve their past issues and the just-bring-back-from-the-dead characters understand the situation they are in. Yes, there are a lot of tears and hugs but it feels so unreal. And, next scene, they are all "heroes" reunited and limited to move their heads in agreement to every Sora remark, without any of them actually surprising of their numbers having increased miraculously. Are you telling me that Aqua, Ventus and Lea dedicate their time in the middle of the apocalypse to resume all the KH saga to their respective partners? Really, I would have pay good money to see that. Most people can't do it having all day long and that using youtube videos support.
 

doublerainbow

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While, meantime, if I recall correctly, Aqua disappears from the scene like she never has been there in the first place. Why not? Is not like she ever fight Vanitas in the past and also has a story with him as an enemy... Surely Sora dialogue was more dramatic and relevant at that point.
Yeah.I wanted to see their talk together so badly!Strange that I've never seen anyone talked about why Aqua was not included in this scene.Also my personal gripes:During the fight with Super Demon Tide, why tf would Ephemer called out to SORA SUE-a random guy and not Ventus-his friend and fellow union leader in the past ? If it was anyone's show during this part , it'd makes the most sense to be Ven to defeat that Demon Vortex. Nevermind that everyone else could help with their keybeams or anything at all.Instead of having them stand around and stare at Sora and his awesome Gary Stu display.
 

Audo

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Eh, they were in a position where they were damned if they did, damned if they didn't. They couldn't actually afford to make 7 playable characters, and if any of the fights were not playable you'd get a ton of people angry that they weren't able to battle so-and-so and it was just a cutscene between NPCs or something or other. I think it was a tough situation no matter what which would have lead to some people being disappointed so I think they instead focused on it being Sora, but you'd have new party member set-ups for each fights, some of them things fans have wanted for years themselves. Personally I think it's a fine enough compromise, my only wish is that maybe each battle had a significant finishing-scene with the relevant party members to make it feel like they contributed a bit more (i.e. we see Ven making the final blow against Vanitas after the battle) or something like that.
 

Alan Smithee

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Something specific that disappointed TF out of me:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 
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alexis.anagram

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Also my personal gripes:During the fight with Super Demon Tide, why tf would Ephemer called out to SORA SUE-a random guy and not Ventus-his friend and fellow union leader in the past ? If it was anyone's show during this part , it'd makes the most sense to be Ven to defeat that Demon Vortex.
Haha, I never even considered this angle, but yeah wtf Ephemer(a). It's amazing the lengths KH3 goes to in terms of plugging the mobile game at the expense of meaningful content related to the actual saga it's meant to be bringing to closure, but then it can't even maintain a sense of coherence with that approach. The one character who has an actual connection to "the light from the past" and the entire back story Nomura went out of his way to integrate as set up for the next series of games is basically removed from that context altogether-- like, instead of using the elements at his disposal to craft a character-centric storyline that focuses the Keyblade War mythos so that it actually matters to the audience, Nomura chose to make it spontaneous BS that always robs the narrative of dramatic purpose. Good goin'.

Something specific that disappointed TF out of me:

Spoiler Spoiler Show
There's so much that goes so wrong before we ever get to the final boss battle that by the time this is going down it's almost exhausting to have to try and hold the story to any sense of consistency with its own premise. But, yeah, this too. I thought that the whole reason it was established that Eraqus had some sort of presence within Terra was so that he could actually help Terra somehow and redeem himself through an act of real love for his "son," such that Eraqus's power would somehow be the key to restoring Terra or preventing his ultimate demise in a moment of real crisis, but that might amount to actual dramatic payoff and we can't have any of that in KH3. Did any of the other KH games have, like, any weight? Nobody acts like they actually experienced those events, or it's like those experiences have been so thoroughly minimized as mere fodder for Sora's journey to be the very best Keyblade wielder that these characters and their stories might as well not even exist. Nomura could have gone straight from KH2 to KH3, kept the Roxas subplot, made up something about Riku falling into the RoD, and basically nothing would have changed.
 

Nexale

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Eh, they were in a position where they were damned if they did, damned if they didn't. They couldn't actually afford to make 7 playable characters, and if any of the fights were not playable you'd get a ton of people angry that they weren't able to battle so-and-so and it was just a cutscene between NPCs or something or other.
I understand your point, but I don't think they need 7 playable characters to make a good fight. I believe KH3D was a good example, and Riku is the only playable character: that is what cutscenes are for, and the idea of the finishing-scene that you mention could have been the only thing needed to do it right. In fact, they could have make 7 playable characters and, if they wouldn't have changed the narrative, I would still be disappointed.

Besides, I think people should be able to separate their personal subjective tastes from objective narrative logic (that can be debated, of course, but still is more "scientific"). Would I have loved to have one of my favorite characters as Axel or Riku as sidekicks in the final battle with Xehanort? Of course I would. Would I choose them as sidekicks if I could only take two characters to the fight? No, I would have taken Terra and Ventus (or maybe Aqua), even if I'm not particularly fond of any one of them, because they were the ones who has the dramatic conflict with Xehanort and the ones that need to put an end to their story.

I don't think any story should give any compromise to its fandom, I think they should do what is better from a story-wise perspective. Of course, someone can argument me here that this battle is well made from a story-wise perspective, and I'll be grateful for it because I truly want to like the endgame, but I really can't find any reason to actually like it at all.

alexis.anagram said:
Did any of the other KH games have, like, any weight? Nobody acts like they actually experienced those events, or it's like those experiences have been so thoroughly minimized as mere fodder for Sora's journey to be the very best Keyblade wielder that these characters and their stories might as well not even exist. Nomura could have gone straight from KH2 to KH3, kept the Roxas subplot, made up something about Riku falling into the RoD, and basically nothing would have changed.
I haven't looked at it this way, but, now that you mention it, that could be the cause of everything: if they want KH3 to be playable for everyone, included the ones who hasn't played the not-numbered games, they must make the relevance of these games almost inexistent. Of course, they could have tried to make the story understandable for the more newly-arrived to the series, and still introduce payoffs for the fans that like all the entries but... Somehow I feel this game has been made to star from zero with new public instead of continue with the old fans from the beginning.
 

Rydgea

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I just beat the game last night, and I'm processing my feelings. But I do feel somewhat stiffed by this.

Audo said:
They couldn't actually afford to make 7 playable characters, and if any of the fights were not playable you'd get a ton of people angry that they weren't able to battle so-and-so and it was just a cutscene between NPCs or something or other.
I call BS honestly.

We've played as TAV, Roxas, Riku, and King Mickey. They should have been able to have their moment joining in the final clash as well. At the very least I can appreciate them as guest party members for the one battle we hosted, but it still feels on the cheap side of our innumerable options. The series has guided us through the perspectives of these other characters we've played as, allowing us to become comfortable in their skin too. It still feels like a clash of light and darkness a la Ventus / Vanitus than it does 7 / 13. They deserved more. I incorrectly suspected that playing as Riku and Aqua in KHIII alone was to groom the newcomers for playing as other characters in the forging of the blade. It's the "event of the year", the "final showdown" highlighted over and over. If there was anything this game needed to focus on polishing, making its strongest feature, it was the one they've been announcing for the past five years. Instead, Toy Box beats it by a landslide.
 
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