Castle Oblivion Organization Members Hierarchy



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Veritas7340

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In terms of overall power and skill, this my opinion of the power hierarchy, according to plot, of the Organization members at Castle Oblivion. For those who dislike power hierarchies, this is probably just a habit from my Dragon Ball Z forum days. I still like the fact that in many other games, combatants have special advantages that can make the fight go either way. I just saw a possible chain here and thought it was worth posting

Axel > Marluxia > Lexaeus > Vexen > Larxene > Zexion

1. Axel

-Original CoM: Marluxia felt the need to use Namine as a human shield to halt Axel's attack

- 358/2 Days: Saix ordered Axel to dispose of the traitors at Oblivion and expected the job to be done without too much difficulty

- Re CoM: Marluxia and Axel have a nice battle but it's still clear that Marluxia can't overpower Axel

2. Marluxia

- Vexen constantly talked back to Axel and Larxene, but stood down when Marluxia confronted him. (could've been both versions maybe)

- Riku comments that a strong power had disappeared when he was close to the lowest basement level. This was Marluxia. After facing Lexaeus, Riku still refers to Marluxia as strong, and by the way the line was presented, it seems that Riku thought Marluxia was stronger than Lexaeus

3. Lexaeus

- Implied to be more powerful than Vexen, the enforcer of the basement Organization squad

- Lexaeus almost caused Riku to lose, whereas Zexion and Vexen weren't as challenging

4. Vexen

- Marluxia sent Axel to eliminate Vexen b/c he was afraid that Vexen would either defeat Sora or divulge the secret behind Namine's memory magic (can't remember which was which, it's been a while)

- Sora and company weren't as exhausted after defeating Larxene as they were when battling Vexen

5. Larxene

- No discernible battle traits that would put her above the aforementioned. The first battle, she was holding back. The second battle, she decided to attack Sora when he was winded from the Riku-Replica fight. After he was restored, the scene shows her being defeated with Sora relatively unaffected

6. Zexion

- Original CoM: Didn't fight Riku much or at all IIRC

- Re Com: He was defeated much easier than was Lexaeus
 

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I disagree with Axel being first place in terms of power. Yes, Marluxia used Naminé as a human shield, but was it truly because he feared his power or because he wanted an easy way out of the situation without fighting? This is the same man that was welcomed into a group, but decided to defect from it, forced a young girl to brainwash a powerful young boy in order to use him against his own organization, again, used someone as a human shield and lastly he made a copy of himself instead of fighting head-on with Sora. To summarize all of this: as you may contemplate, Marluxia likes to indirectly confront his adversaries, so I would not say that he feared Axel's power, he just preferred not to confront him. And yes, Saix told him to eliminate the traitors making us think he has the power to do so, but really, WHO eliminated the Castle Oblivion "dream team"? Part was eliminated by Sora, another part by Riku and Axel only took down Zexion.

THIS is why I believe Axel should not be ranked first. Besides, Marluxia was the final boss of Sora's side of Chain of Memories.
 

Veritas7340

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I disagree with Axel being first place in terms of power. Yes, Marluxia used Naminé as a human shield, but was it truly because he feared his power or because he wanted an easy way out of the situation without fighting? This is the same man that was welcomed into a group, but decided to defect from it, forced a young girl to brainwash a powerful young boy in order to use him against his own organization, again, used someone as a human shield and lastly he made a copy of himself instead of fighting head-on with Sora. To summarize all of this: as you may contemplate, Marluxia likes to indirectly confront his adversaries, so I would not say that he feared Axel's power, he just preferred not to confront him. And yes, Saix told him to eliminate the traitors making us think he has the power to do so, but really, WHO eliminated the Castle Oblivion "dream team"? Part was eliminated by Sora, another part by Riku and Axel only took down Zexion.

THIS is why I believe Axel should not be ranked first. Besides, Marluxia was the final boss of Sora's side of Chain of Memories.
I see your points and how you would believe that Axel is not more powerful than Marluxia.

I just want to see if I can combat some of them for fun.

Axel let Sora "win", whereas practically the same Sora defeated Marluxia. Choosing to indirectly confront an opponent is not directly indicative of a power inferiority, true. However, withholding all biases, which is the likelier option: Marluxia avoided battle with Axel because he didn't want to get his hands dirty or Marluxia didn't want to risk a loss?

You haven't proven anything that would show Axel being less powerful than Marluxia.

Axel was not intent on killing Sora. His mission was annihilating the traitors, not killing the keyblade wielder. He saw that Sora was powerful enough to take on Marluxia and so let him do it instead. In other words, he acted like Marluxia. For all we know, if Axel used his true power, he could've destroyed Sora.
 

blksabbath74

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I'd say that Marluxia was probably more overtly powerful than Axel, but not by much.

Axel's real advantage was the element of suprise, along with a knack for playing both sides against each other and watching as the chaos ensues, much like Clint Eastwood in A Fistful of Dollars. That's why he's my favorite character.

Marluxia is a master manipulator and the architecht of a very complex plot, but Axel understands how easy it is to break something complex by throwing a monkey wrench into it. Add to that the fact that he is a very effective warrior in melee and at range, and his pyromancy, and Marluxia never stood a chance.

Axel shook the pillars, watched it all come down, and walked away smirking...
 

Zettaflare

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I agree that Axel was the strongest member in Castle Oblivion. Though I'm not sure how I would rank the other five members in terms of strength.
 

blksabbath74

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I agree that Axel was the strongest member in Castle Oblivion. Though I'm not sure how I would rank the other five members in terms of strength.
I think they were fairly evenly matched. Marluxia was probably slightly more powerful, being older and more highly ranked, but his abilities don't make for a favorable match up with Axel's.

I DO think that Axel was probably greatly underestimated by everyone in Castle Oblivion.

I'd also put forth that I don't beleive Axel would have hurt Namine, and was bluffing. I also think part of the reason why he chose to eliminate Vexen was to protect Roxas, as if Sora had learned the truth about Roxas it would have definately had ramifications. Not that he would have at that time admitted that to anyone, least of all himself. But I think the process of his friendship with Sora was probably that far along.
 

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Lexaeus should be the most powerful of them; according to Nomura, the four most powerful members were Xemnas, Roxas, Xaldin, and Lexaeus. He noted that each character's importance to the plot didn't necessarily reflect their power, which is why Saix isn't up higher.
 

gamerobber7

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Lexaeus should be the most powerful of them; according to Nomura, the four most powerful members were Xemnas, Roxas, Xaldin, and Lexaeus. He noted that each character's importance to the plot didn't necessarily reflect their power, which is why Saix isn't up higher.
Yes it's been stated that Lexaeus is the most physically powerful member of the Organization but taking into consideration other abilities and skills I would agree with him being third out of the six CO members. I basically agree with the ranking Veritas wrote. I think Axel is more powerful than Marluxia since Marluxia transformed twice and still lost while Sora and co seemed to put an effort into the fights with Axel and it didn't seem Axel was using his full power.
 

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Yes it's been stated that Lexaeus is the most physically powerful member of the Organization but taking into consideration other abilities and skills I would agree with him being third out of the six CO members.
But Nomura's listing does​ rank every member based on their overall strength, not just their physical strength. Otherwise, it'd be outlandish for Xemnas and Roxas to be ahead of Xaldin and Lexaeus on the list.
 

gamerobber7

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But Nomura's listing does​ rank every member based on their overall strength, not just their physical strength. Otherwise, it'd be outlandish for Xemnas and Roxas to be ahead of Xaldin and Lexaeus on the list.
Ah my mistake. Lexaeus is my favorite Org. member but even I think that it is surprising that he is stronger than Marluxia and Axel. I'm surprised that Lexaeus and Xaldin didn't get bigger roles than what they were given, I mean we barely got to see Lexaeus do anything. :/
 

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It's very awkward storytelling; imagine Riku being stronger than 2/3 of the Org as early as CoM. Which also means that Sora was stronger than them as well, since Sora was stronger than Riku at the time.
 

gamerobber7

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It's very awkward storytelling; imagine Riku being stronger than 2/3 of the Org as early as CoM. Which also means that Sora was stronger than them as well, since Sora was stronger than Riku at the time.
That's true. When you put it that way the Organization wasn't too strong to begin with huh? :p
 

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That's true. When you put it that way the Organization wasn't too strong to begin with huh? :p
In regards to Sora and Riku not really. I'm a bit surprised most tend to be shocked by the fact even though Sora axes off most the org, with some of them being defeated single handed by him.
Even Xemnas was no match for sora at his base level. (before his kh boost)
 

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It's both the fact that their 3rd/4th strongest member was killed as early as CoM and the fact that Riku would be at least stronger than 12 of the 13 members right before KH2 that makes the whole hierarchy deal seem rather odd.
 

Veritas7340

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Lexaeus should be the most powerful of them; according to Nomura, the four most powerful members were Xemnas, Roxas, Xaldin, and Lexaeus. He noted that each character's importance to the plot didn't necessarily reflect their power, which is why Saix isn't up higher.
If he's going to declare Xaldin and Lexaeus as two of the four most powerful Organization members, why would Nomura give them such limited roles? I'm not going to argue that that's what he said; I saw it myself at one point I think. The plot makes Axel, Marluxia, Saix, look more powerful than Xaldin and Lexaeus. Especially Xaldin, in the gameplay he was the toughest in-story KHII boss, but the scene shows Sora and co defeating him with little danger to themselves. Why would Riku be impressed with Marluxia's power if Lexaeus was a good deal stronger? Well what's presented in the plot just matters more to me I guess
 

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Into all this talk of hierachy, I'd like to point out that the best/strongest/most powerful opponent does not always win.

Look at military history, boxing, or one of my favorite pastimes, college football. Some teams are clearly better, and yet still get beaten by lesser opponents. If you squared them off 20 times, the preferred opponent might win 19 times, but in reality, the underdog wins often enough to make it worth watching.

In addition, certain opponents/characters/teams might be more powerful, but their abilities might match up poorly with those of an inferior opponent, allowing that opponent to beat them easily.

Also, you can't really use the transient property to determine a hierarchy. Just because A defeats B and B defeats C, you can't necessarily infer that A is more powerful than C.

To use football as a further example, this year Alabama beat Ole Miss who beat Texas who beat Oklahoma who beat Alabama. See what I'm getting at?

As long as you are looking at Kingdom Hearts as a story, and not as a prescripted peice of software, there has got to be more that a greater than/less than equation.

From that perspective, while Sora/Roxas/Riku often have a greater maximum potential than many of the villains, I believe they go into most of their battles as underdogs, or are at least underestimated, are tested, and defeat their enemies.
 

Sephiroth0812

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If he's going to declare Xaldin and Lexaeus as two of the four most powerful Organization members, why would Nomura give them such limited roles? I'm not going to argue that that's what he said; I saw it myself at one point I think. The plot makes Axel, Marluxia, Saix, look more powerful than Xaldin and Lexaeus. Especially Xaldin, in the gameplay he was the toughest in-story KHII boss, but the scene shows Sora and co defeating him with little danger to themselves. Why would Riku be impressed with Marluxia's power if Lexaeus was a good deal stronger? Well what's presented in the plot just matters more to me I guess
Maybe because one's battle power/prowess in fighting is not a deciding factor to a character's importance to the plot and thus the extent of his/her role?
Naminé has nearly zero battle power/prowess in fighting and is a character vastly more important than any of the Organisation members except maybe Xigbar and Xemnas.
Of the "basement" group, it was also Zexion who was the leader despite being inferior to Lexaeus in battle terms.

Looks can be deceiving, especially since some characters get more spotlight than others.
Nonetheless though, Axel did not win a single fight throughout the series except against Xion in Days plotwise, not to mention his "fight" with Marluxia was not a real true engagement as Marluxia obviously held back. Not because he feared Axel, but because he did not want to waste energy fighting him.
Marluxia is one of those who lets others do the dirty work for him if he can somehow manage it, as shown as when he successfully managed to coerce Sora into fighting Axel.


Back on to actually winning/losing fights despite not much plot relevance:
Do you forget that Riku was squashed flat (and crushed against the ceiling) by Lexaeus?
While in game terms you may win the battle against him, the scene afterwards shows that Riku actually loses the battle.

The only reason Lexaeus is vanquished in one strike afterwards is because of a) the element of surprise and b) Ansem SoD took over from inside Riku.

Axel is also not that strong overall, but a smartass tactician who knows to manipulate circumstances into his favor. In a true one-on-one engagement with all participants going all out both Xaldin and Lexaeus would have probably go on to crush him, but like he did with Sora, Axel would at least try to retreat when he sees that he's outmatched.
That's cause someone like Axel does not see a (temporarily) retreat as a disgrace, but as a chance to return later when the odds are better.

When Nomura made that listing as an answer as to who's "strongest" within the Organisation he based it on all factors, including even only "potential", as the latter is the only reason he placed Roxas as second-place.
Roxas is only second-strongest when including his potential, meaning that in actual (current) power Xaldin and Lexaeus still outmatch even him.

There is a reason they were charged with defending the gates of Ansem's Castle back in BBS and showed no hesitation in going up against the Unversed. Even/Vexen and Ienzo/Zexion are scientists at first, so that their overall battle prowess is not that strong compared to Aeleus/Lexaeus and Dilan/Xaldin (who are military men) is logical.
We do not know anything about Marluxia's background, but it stands without question that he's pretty strong overall.
Nomura himself did not elaborate on any hierachy beyond the first four (Xemnas, Roxas, Lexaeus, Xaldin) so anything after these is up to personal interpretation.
 

Veritas7340

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Back on to actually winning/losing fights despite not much plot relevance:
Do you forget that Riku was squashed flat (and crushed against the ceiling) by Lexaeus?
While in game terms you may win the battle against him, the scene afterwards shows that Riku actually loses the battle.

The only reason Lexaeus is vanquished in one strike afterwards is because of a) the element of surprise and b) Ansem SoD took over from inside Riku.

Axel is also not that strong overall, but a smartass tactician who knows to manipulate circumstances into his favor.
1. Yes I do remember that Riku lost the battle against Lexaeus. However, at that point in time, Riku wasn't comfortable using his dark powers yet and so was far from full strength.

2. Axel was expected to eliminate the traitors at CO, able to incinerate Vexen easily, put up a good fight against Marluxia, hold his own against Sora & Roxas, and clash against Isa. With all these instances, I interpret that Axel must be a pretty powerful fighter.
 

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1. Yes I do remember that Riku lost the battle against Lexaeus. However, at that point in time, Riku wasn't comfortable using his dark powers yet and so was far from full strength.

2. Axel was expected to eliminate the traitors at CO, able to incinerate Vexen easily, put up a good fight against Marluxia, hold his own against Sora & Roxas, and clash against Isa. With all these instances, I interpret that Axel must be a pretty powerful fighter.
Concerning 1., as blksabbath74 pointed out, even with full strength one can still lose a battle due to other circumstances that may or may not be intentional. Riku also lost to Roxas first and only won the second round because he cheated, but he did win in the end.
The point still stands though that Lexaeus, unlike Axel, actually managed to win a battle.

2. No one implied/said though that it was expected to be done by brute force or battle power. In fact, most things Axel accomplished were either by trickery or choosing the best opportunity to intervene, not battle power. Vexen was already worn out and on the ropes from his battle with Sora, not to mention that Axel's first strike came as a surprise attack. He literally only finished off an already defeated man, same goes for Zexion actually as he waited until Riku had already weakened him before striking by using the Riku Replica. Marluxia is a tricky issue because we do not really know how serious they both were, not to mention that they both did not show any of their true abilities.
As for Sora and Roxas, he retreated in both fights with Sora before it could get any serious and Roxas literally trashed him in KH 2 while Saix beat him to an inch of his life later (that is only shown in the manga and the novel) so that he was barely alive when he came to aid Sora in bewixt-and-between in KH 2 where he ultimatively sacrificed himself.
Axel is certainly an effective fighter who also knows how to survive, but he's also someone who relies more on trickery, tactics and taking of opportunites rather than actual power.
This is also furthermore reinforced when it is shown in Days that, although that he won the fight against Xion, he is on his last legs when he returns to the Castle that never was and actually feints from exhaustion, dropping Xion who is then taken away by Xemnas.
 

blksabbath74

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Marluxia is one of those who lets others do the dirty work for him if he can somehow manage it, as shown as when he successfully managed to coerce Sora into fighting Axel.
As opposed to Axel, who managed to set the three factions against each other, bringing down the whole scheme, wiping out a third of the Organization, and walked away alive, having accomplished both his overt and covert mission, and protected the secret of Roxas?

Marluxia thought he was a player; Axel is a player.

Also, in combat, Axel is a bit of a Jack of all trades, comfortable at range or up close, using pyromancy or his chakram. That, plus his intangibles, allow him to be alot more adaptable in a fight, giving him an advantage.
 
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