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Castle Oblivion Organization Members Hierarchy



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Sephiroth0812

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As opposed to Axel, who managed to set the three factions against each other, bringing down the whole scheme, wiping out a third of the Organization, and walked away alive, having accomplished both his overt and covert mission, and protected the secret of Roxas?

Marluxia thought he was a player; Axel is a player.

Also, in combat, Axel is a bit of a Jack of all trades, comfortable at range or up close, using pyromancy or his chakram. That, plus his intangibles, allow him to be alot more adaptable in a fight, giving him an advantage.

I don't remember saying anything related to contrasting Marluxia to Axel. I only said that Marluxia is one of those types of schemers in order to point out why he was holding back/biding for time when Axel confronted him.
Both Zexion and Axel (as well as Xemnas and even Ansem SoD) fall into the same category in different nuances.

Yea, Axel's main strength is versatility, but not power, hence why he isn't far up in the listing Nomura gave.
If the question is who's the most effective Organisation member, Axel is sure to be ranked higher.
 

blksabbath74

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Axel is certainly an effective fighter who also knows how to survive, but he's also someone who relies more on trickery, tactics and taking of opportunites rather than actual power.

He is definately an opportunist who takes what the opposition will give him.

Charge him and he'll withdraw and attack you at range. Snipe him at range and he'll get in your face (or outgun you with more powerful ranged attacks).

He usually chooses his battles to give him the advantage of suprise or other tactical advantages, and if he's losing, he doesn't mind withdrawing to try again later.

He also has a keen mind, which he hides behind his sense of humor.

I don't remember saying anything related to contrasting Marluxia to Axel. I only said that Marluxia is one of those types of schemers in order to point out why he was holding back/biding for time when Axel confronted him.
Both Zexion and Axel (as well as Xemnas and even Ansem SoD) fall into the same category in different nuances.

Yea, Axel's main strength is versatility, but not power, hence why he isn't far up in the listing Nomura gave.
If the question is who's the most effective Organisation member, Axel is sure to be ranked higher.

Agreed completely...although I do think MOST of the organization, certainly those at Castle Oblivion, underestimated him as well.

Heck, Larxene thought she was playing him...
 

gamerobber7

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If he's going to declare Xaldin and Lexaeus as two of the four most powerful Organization members, why would Nomura give them such limited roles? I'm not going to argue that that's what he said; I saw it myself at one point I think. The plot makes Axel, Marluxia, Saix, look more powerful than Xaldin and Lexaeus. Especially Xaldin, in the gameplay he was the toughest in-story KHII boss, but the scene shows Sora and co defeating him with little danger to themselves. Why would Riku be impressed with Marluxia's power if Lexaeus was a good deal stronger? Well what's presented in the plot just matters more to me I guess

I agree with you. I suppose they didn't need to be shown too much but the fact that they were two of the strongest members and they both showed to be fairly intelligent i'm surprised they weren't showcased more.
 

Divine Past

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Lexaeus has to be the strongest. I mean he was the only one who was shown to be powerful enough to wipe out one of the main hero.

I guess I should count Larxene since she did some nice damage on Sora but that was mostly due to sneak attacks and what not.
 

Gram

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Lexaeus has to be the strongest. I mean he was the only one who was shown to be powerful enough to wipe out one of the main hero.

I guess I should count Larxene since she did some nice damage on Sora but that was mostly due to sneak attacks and what not.
Lexeaus does hold the most physical power.

Ehhh but Sora has been nicely damaged by several over the series so I wouldn't say it makes her a stand out combatant.
 

Divine Past

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Lexeaus does hold the most physical power.

Ehhh but Sora has been nicely damaged by several over the series so I wouldn't say it makes her a stand out combatant.

Well from my memory, Larxene has been one of the few members to have actually taken down Sora during their 7th floor encounter. (I don't count their second encounter due to Sora being worn out by the replica) Which I think is very important to show the relative power of Larxene due to how protective Sora is during cut scene.

I'm pretty sure I can count on both my hands the number of times that Sora either got hurt by a boss or looked like he broke a sweat during a fight. But that's a topic for another thread :p
 

Gram

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Well from my memory, Larxene has been one of the few members to have actually taken down Sora during their 7th floor encounter. (I don't count their second encounter due to Sora being worn out by the replica) Which I think is very important to show the relative power of Larxene due to how protective Sora is during cut scene.

I'm pretty sure I can count on both my hands the number of times that Sora either got hurt by a boss or looked like he broke a sweat during a fight. But that's a topic for another thread :p

But she didn't really take him down though as Axel teased "looks like you just plan lost to me". All she did was get a kick in then taunt him about the luck charm, and last I checked getting knocked down doesn't equal great strength or loss.
 

Veritas7340

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Concerning 1., as blksabbath74 pointed out, even with full strength one can still lose a battle due to other circumstances that may or may not be intentional. Riku also lost to Roxas first and only won the second round because he cheated, but he did win in the end.
The point still stands though that Lexaeus, unlike Axel, actually managed to win a battle.

2. No one implied/said though that it was expected to be done by brute force or battle power. In fact, most things Axel accomplished were either by trickery or choosing the best opportunity to intervene, not battle power. Vexen was already worn out and on the ropes from his battle with Sora, not to mention that Axel's first strike came as a surprise attack. He literally only finished off an already defeated man, same goes for Zexion actually as he waited until Riku had already weakened him before striking by using the Riku Replica. Marluxia is a tricky issue because we do not really know how serious they both were, not to mention that they both did not show any of their true abilities.
As for Sora and Roxas, he retreated in both fights with Sora before it could get any serious and Roxas literally trashed him in KH 2 while Saix beat him to an inch of his life later (that is only shown in the manga and the novel) so that he was barely alive when he came to aid Sora in bewixt-and-between in KH 2 where he ultimatively sacrificed himself.
Axel is certainly an effective fighter who also knows how to survive, but he's also someone who relies more on trickery, tactics and taking of opportunites rather than actual power.
This is also furthermore reinforced when it is shown in Days that, although that he won the fight against Xion, he is on his last legs when he returns to the Castle that never was and actually feints from exhaustion, dropping Xion who is then taken away by Xemnas.

I think we have a misunderstanding. I actually agree with you to an extent. In my original post where I made this topic, I said this: "In terms of overall power and skill". We've been running into a semantics.

Whenever I said "power", I was referring to most/all the factors that go into it like:

- Brute force
-Skill
-Tactics
-Speed
etc.

I agree with Lexaeus and Marluxia having more brute force than Axel. However, overall since Axel has more skill, tactical ability, and is perhaps faster, I still think that Axel should be the number 1 rank on the hierarchy
 

Gram

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I agree with Lexaeus and Marluxia having more brute force than Axel. However, overall since Axel has more skill, tactical ability, and is perhaps faster, I still think that Axel should be the number 1 rank on the hierarchy
Axel does hold a great deal of tactical skill and is fairly strong but that wouldn't make him number one as Marluxia also shows manipulative talent and has more raw power. (if his boss forms are any indication)

As for people like Lexeaus we dont really know enough of his other fields, besides his raw physical power, to rank him thus why we can only take Nomura's word for it when he ranks Lexeaus higher than Axel in terms of power.
 

Veritas7340

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Axel does hold a great deal of tactical skill and is fairly strong but that wouldn't make him number one as Marluxia also shows manipulative talent and has more raw power. (if his boss forms are any indication)

As for people like Lexeaus we dont really know enough of his other fields, besides his raw physical power, to rank him thus why we can only take Nomura's word for it when he ranks Lexeaus higher than Axel in terms of power.

Raw power isn't everything in KH though. I think that Axel's skill in other areas is enough to overcome the power discrepancy. In 358/2 Days, there was never a notion of possibly sending Axel on a fatal mission, of his losing to Marluxia. What feats does Marluxia really have in the end? He fought Sora and lost, the end. Axel on the other hand has survived encounters with Sora, Roxas, and Marluxia.
 

Gram

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Raw power isn't everything in KH though. I think that Axel's skill in other areas is enough to overcome the power discrepancy. In 358/2 Days, there was never a notion of possibly sending Axel on a fatal mission, of his losing to Marluxia. What feats does Marluxia really have in the end? He fought Sora and lost, the end. Axel on the other hand has survived encounters with Sora, Roxas, and Marluxia.
I didn't say raw power is everything in kh but I am pointing out that Lexeaus also has other fields or power that we dont know anything about since he didn't get much screen time.
And since nomura ranked him so high I'd take that to mean Axel wouldn't stand much chance against him unless he finished him off after somebody else done wore him down like how he did with Vexen after sora weakened him.

And how would you possibly know that? The Org didn't care of Axel died or not so why would anyone have any notions? When Siax sent you out to do something he expected you to do it or fall trying, simple as that. (an attitude he expanded to all members)

Marluxia had power and like Axel he was cunning though not AS cunning. Axel survived because of because he's good at playing the ghost which has nothing to do with power, manipulation or even cunning. All faking a death requires is good acting skills. =P

Though none of this topic really matters as the creator of the series himself ranked the four strongest in the organization as a whole. If you have issues with how the power is ranked take it up with him.
 

Veritas7340

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I didn't say raw power is everything in kh but I am pointing out that Lexeaus also has other fields or power that we dont know anything about since he didn't get much screen time.
And since nomura ranked him so high I'd take that to mean Axel wouldn't stand much chance against him unless he finished him off after somebody else done wore him down like how he did with Vexen after sora weakened him.

And how would you possibly know that? The Org didn't care of Axel died or not so why would anyone have any notions? When Siax sent you out to do something he expected you to do it or fall trying, simple as that. (an attitude he expanded to all members)

Marluxia had power and like Axel he was cunning though not AS cunning. Axel survived because of because he's good at playing the ghost which has nothing to do with power, manipulation or even cunning. All faking a death requires is good acting skills. =P

Though none of this topic really matters as the creator of the series himself ranked the four strongest in the organization as a whole. If you have issues with how the power is ranked take it up with him.

Well, I can see we both have valid points on the matter. Because of Nomura's high ranking of Lexaeus, I'm now a bit reluctant in saying Axel would beat him in a fight. As for Marluxia, I can see the fight going either way honestly. I think what I had to say is valid and what you had to say was valid.
 

Gram

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Well, I can see we both have valid points on the matter. Because of Nomura's high ranking of Lexaeus, I'm now a bit reluctant in saying Axel would beat him in a fight. As for Marluxia, I can see the fight going either way honestly. I think what I had to say is valid and what you had to say was valid.

Indeed we both had valid points but in the end Nomura pretty much nulls such a topic. Axel may stand a chance against marluxia, that's certainly a fact, but we'll never really know since it's hard to gauge their individual powers cause of how easily Sora finished off most the org. (many of which single handed)
 

gamerobber7

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I am pointing out that Lexeaus also has other fields or power that we dont know anything about since he didn't get much screen time.

Well we do see that Lexaeus is pretty intelligent as he is shown to advise both Zexion and Vexen on how they should handle Riku among other things. After all of the discussion and to go back to the original question I would now rank the CO members as:

1. Lexaeus
2. Marluxia
3. Axel
4. Larxene
5. Vexen
6. Zexion

What do you guys think of that one?
 
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Gram

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In terms of overall power I'd say you have Zexion and Lexeaus pretty much dead on in that list.
 

gamerobber7

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In terms of overall power I'd say you have Zexion and Lexeaus pretty much dead on in that list.

Well I don't know if we'll be able to decide who's stronger between Marluxia and Axel but I think Larxene gets the edge over Vexen because while Vexen is surely smarter than Larxene her ruthlesness and strength seems to surpass Vexen's (of course now I realize that was the argument between Marluxia and Axel so...).
 

Veritas7340

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Yeah, like Anagram said, I think you have Lexaeus and Zexion at the right spots.

As for Marluxia and Axel, it can go either way based on your view as I've personally seen in my mini-debates with Anagram and Sephiroth.

As for Larxene and Vexen, I think there's not enough evidence either way to assert one as the more powerful.

Larxene kicked Sora in their first encounter, but Sora wasn't powerful enough at that moment. Vexen caused Sora problems IIRC, but someone may say that Sora became more powerful from the experience of that battle when he faced Larxene. When Donald healed Sora, they defeated Larxene with little difficulty
 

blksabbath74

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Well, I can see we both have valid points on the matter. Because of Nomura's high ranking of Lexaeus, I'm now a bit reluctant in saying Axel would beat him in a fight. As for Marluxia, I can see the fight going either way honestly. I think what I had to say is valid and what you had to say was valid.

I think Lexaeus and Marluxia are both inherently more powerful than Axel. However, if Axel fought either of them, he would more than likely have arranged some sort of advantageous situation which would give him the edge, as well as an escape route if things started going south.
 

Veritas7340

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I think Lexaeus and Marluxia are both inherently more powerful than Axel. However, if Axel fought either of them, he would more than likely have arranged some sort of advantageous situation which would give him the edge, as well as an escape route if things started going south.

I agree. Axel has proven to be perhaps the most tactical Organization member.
 
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