120 people dead in France after an terrorist attack

[bgizzles45]

Well if I'm arguing that western intervention, war and conflict changed their society dramatically, then yes. It gives you an idea how these terrorist organizations arose in the first place. Comparing Mexico to this situation is completely unrelatable and I don't even know why you brought it up. Don't try to derail this discussion into something that has nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Taylor]

Again, I don't doubt western influence exacerbated issues, but who knows what/how the events would have played out had the west not been involved?


Correlation =/= Causation.

 

[Pinwheel]

Well if I'm arguing that western intervention, war and conflict changed their society dramatically, then yes. It gives you an idea how these terrorist organizations arose in the first place. Comparing Mexico to this situation is completely unrelatable and I don't even know why you brought it up. Don't try to derail this discussion into something that has nothing to do with the topic.

I'm using Mexico and cartels as a comparison to your last two images. It's dumb to just take two entirely unrelated images and just use them as a before and after. Thus why I said I could take a picture of an office from Mexico before an event and then a picture of a cartel execution after the event. Taylor put it pretty succinctly.

Correlation =/= Causation.

 

[shady543]

Well, I'm not sure if this is correct, but I've heard that the Muslim extremists can't stand the west and hate our values and how we have a lot of freedom, and really hate us because of this? Like, they hate our drinking habits, taking drugs, woman not being covered and are rising to power, better treatment of the LGBTQ community, etc, because their religion is very opposite? I mean, sharia law alone is quite different to the western way of life.

 

[YoungXehanort]

Well, I'm not sure if this is correct, but I've heard that the Muslim extremists can't stand the west and hate our values and how we have a lot of freedom, and really hate us because of this? Like, they hate our drinking habits, taking drugs, woman not being covered and are rising to power, better treatment of the LGBTQ community, etc, because their religion is very opposite? I mean, sharia law alone is quite different to the western way of life.

excuse me Muslim extremists??? terrorist are not muslims and what do you mean they hate the west cause you have freedom? do you live under rock the reason why terrorist hate you cause you west people keep meddling with Middle Eastern politics it's cause your leaders stuck their nose in places they don't belong two.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

How do you propose we kill them all, when we don't know where they're at? They don't have a base, they don't have one singular country they're coming from, and they're not wearing anything to distinguish them enough as a IS group. It isn't as simple as we'd all like it to be. These messed up people are smart and they can pop up anywhere in the country; They proved that by doing this in Paris and getting away with it. :c

This is indeed the main problem with these decentralized "cells" and groups operating independent from the actual "state territory" of the so-called "caliphate" of the IS.
Of course you could, and what some radical militarist hawks would just love to do, go after the elements you DO see, like the areas known to be under IS control in Syria and Iraq and then i.e. wipe Rakka, the so-called "capital" of the IS from the map by dropping a nuclear bomb on it. It would wipe out at least most of the leadership of IS, or so the calculation.
This is of course totally bogus and would cause many unrelated deaths due to the radiation, not to mention unrelated neighbouring countries like Turkey, Iran etc. would get massive damage from the blast as well.

I don't agree with this. From the very beginning ISIS has been all about targeting those of the Jewish and Christian faiths. And it's not like they wouldn't be doing this, or would stop, if we hadn't gotten involved in Middle Eastern politics. ISIS is deranged and think that their world view is the only right one out there, and as long as they continue to think that, people will continue to be in danger. And I wish that that wasn't true, but sadly it is.

Uh no, that is not exactly what the IS is about. The IS does indeed attack Christians and Jews, but they do not stop there. The IS attacks everything they deem not in line with their totally antiquated, stone-age interpretation of Islam. Muslims are actually quite a big victim group of them too, because they are not truly Muslims in the general sense, but religious extremists that want to dictate everyone how they should live according to their deranged views.
It's not only different faiths or western lifestyle alone, but everything they decide doesn't suit them that gets targeted.

Well, I'm not sure if this is correct, but I've heard that the Muslim extremists can't stand the west and hate our values and how we have a lot of freedom, and really hate us because of this? Like, they hate our drinking habits, taking drugs, woman not being covered and are rising to power, better treatment of the LGBTQ community, etc, because their religion is very opposite? I mean, sharia law alone is quite different to the western way of life.

That is not really something exclusive to specifically islamistic extremists though?
Hating on the liberal, western lifestyle, tolerance of LGBTQ, women's freedom etc. is something that can be found in all religious extremists of any faith, not just Islam.

As, just for example, last time I checked people like Putin, Victor Orbán in Hungary, many other right-wing populists in the western world, Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum and most of the Tea Party scum in the USA are not Muslim extremists and yet still share many of their backwards oriented views and lobby against the values lined out above.
Some of those hide behind a radical view of Christianity to propose (and force) their antiquated views on society just like Muslim extremists do with the Islam, be it IS, Al-Qaida, Boko Haram or whatever these nutjobs call themselves.
In Israel (and among the jewish people) exists Zionism and its offshoots which do the same thing.

It's not as easy as designating the Religion in itself as the problem, as the biggest problem comes from fanatic zealots in all religions who turn them and their "rules" into ideology and then try to force them on other people to control their lives.
Even the Nazis, who didn't really like Religion itself, build up an own "quasi"-religion with the Führerkult and all the nazi symbols around it, the state-sponsored racism and master race-propaganda, an ideology with iron "traditional" rules to control the populace and keep them in line.

 

[hemmoheikkinen]

It could also be added that Mao and Stalin basically build an cult around themselves, and North Korea, a nation which claims to be an atheist, worship the past leaders of the country like some heavenly deities.

 

[bgizzles45]

I'm using Mexico and cartels as a comparison to your last two images. It's dumb to just take two entirely unrelated images and just use them as a before and after. Thus why I said I could take a picture of an office from Mexico before an event and then a picture of a cartel execution after the event. Taylor put it pretty succinctly.

Except I don't ever recall the United States/NATO destroying the infrastructure of Mexico, bombing multiple cities in Mexico, and attempting to reform their government.

Correlation =/= Causation has no relevance in this scenario. This is a simple case of cause and effect.

 

[shady543]

That is not really something exclusive to specifically islamistic extremists though?
Hating on the liberal, western lifestyle, tolerance of LGBTQ, women's freedom etc. is something that can be found in all religious extremists of any faith, not just Islam.

As, just for example, last time I checked people like Putin, Victor Orbán in Hungary, many other right-wing populists in the western world, Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum and most of the Tea Party scum in the USA are not Muslim extremists and yet still share many of their backwards oriented views and lobby against the values lined out above.
Some of those hide behind a radical view of Christianity to propose (and force) their antiquated views on society just like Muslim extremists do with the Islam, be it IS, Al-Qaida, Boko Haram or whatever these nutjobs call themselves.
In Israel (and among the jewish people) exists Zionism and its offshoots which do the same thing.

It's not as easy as designating the Religion in itself as the problem, as the biggest problem comes from fanatic zealots in all religions who turn them and their "rules" into ideology and then try to force them on other people to control their lives.
Even the Nazis, who didn't really like Religion itself, build up an own "quasi"-religion with the Führerkult and all the nazi symbols around it, the state-sponsored racism and master race-propaganda, an ideology with iron "traditional" rules to control the populace and keep them in line.

Ah ok, thank you. When it comes these sort of stuff I'm always quite confused lol, so thanks for explaining. ^__^

excuse me Muslim extremists??? terrorist are not muslims and what do you mean they hate the west cause you have freedom? do you live under rock the reason why terrorist hate you cause you west people keep meddling with Middle Eastern politics it's cause your leaders stuck their nose in places they don't belong two.

I'm sorry if I offended you, but you don't need to attack me for something I wasn't 100% sure about myself, thanks. I was just asking because it was something I've heard and generally confused about. Something that I was simply wondering about doesn't mean that I agree with it so you don't need to assume that I do.

 

[Pinwheel]

Except I don't ever recall the United States/NATO destroying the infrastructure of Mexico, bombing multiple cities in Mexico, and attempting to reform their government.

Do you understand what I'm making an analogy to? The entire details about Mexico and an office aren't relevant to the point I'm making, you aren't comprehending it. The point was that you can take any two unrelated photos - one nice picture and one bad picture - between two given points of time and say an event caused Picture A to become Picture B. So yes, the point on correlation and causation still stands. It's meaningless to show two pictures for some emotionally driven argument and just insert whatever you want as the event in the middle. Your argument's form is childishly simplistic.

 

[Taylor]

Correlation =/= Causation has no relevance in this scenario. This is a simple case of cause and effect.

Sorry, didn't realize you were literally omniscient.



Come on, man.

 

[bgizzles45]

Do you understand what I'm making an analogy to? The entire details about Mexico and an office aren't relevant to the point I'm making, you aren't comprehending it. The point was that you can take any two unrelated photos - one nice picture and one bad picture - between two given points of time and say an event caused Picture A to become Picture B. So yes, the point on correlation and causation still stands. It's meaningless to show two pictures for some emotionally driven argument and just insert whatever you want as the event in the middle. Your argument's form is childishly simplistic.

The photos I have chosen are related to one another in the sense of how destabilizing a region through acts of war have changed the fundamental lifestyle of their society. It's common sense. You destroy a region through acts of violence and you have people uprising through rebellion in the midst of chaos. There is no emotionally driven insertion in what I stated. The only person who can't get their emotions in check in this discussion is you clearly because you think this is event is a case of causation =/= correlation in which I have never insinuated in the first place. Your counter argument holds no merit and the fact that you're comparing the events of what is happening in the middle east to something completely irrelevant shows how ignorant you are to global events in the past century.

This will be my last post in this thread. I see the trolls have came out of the wood works to have their last laughs and giggles on what seems to be an never ending tragedy on both sides where millions of lives (on both sides) are being lost continuously when it can be resolved using common sense. Emotionally driven, am I right?

 

[Taylor]

yeah we might as well not separate into kingdom, phylum, class, order, genus, or species either because that's just bigoted and violent


jesus take the wheel

 

[BlackOsprey]

excuse me Muslim extremists??? terrorist are not muslims and what do you mean they hate the west cause you have freedom? do you live under rock the reason why terrorist hate you cause you west people keep meddling with Middle Eastern politics it's cause your leaders stuck their nose in places they don't belong two.

Uh, what? While not all terrorists are Muslims, these terrorists (most of em) are. Otherwise, why are they calling themselves things like "Muslim Brotherhood" or "Islamic State"?

 

[Deleted member 36435]

I made a legitimate demonstration of correlation not equaling causation but since that apparently isn't allowed I'll just go ahead and say that:

This sort of needless violence, especially against innocent people, is inexcusable and disgusting no matter the cause. And the idea that is can be "solved by common sense" is even more ridiculous than attempting to shift the blame off of those who committed these atrocities onto Western politics. I also don't think it is a stretch to say that a group that calls themselves the ISLAMIC state is a religious organization.

The destabilization of the Middle East by Western countries is obviously a contributing factor to these organization's rise to power but regardless gross over simplification of the issue and blame shifting gets us nowhere.

 

[Songbird]

Uh, what? While not all terrorists are Muslims, these terrorists (most of em) are. Otherwise, why are they calling themselves things like "Muslim Brotherhood" or "Islamic State"?

Actually they are not being truthful. Though some of them are actually Muslim, most of them do not practice it at all and only claim to be. In the East they actually have their own word for people like that which is lost in translation to English.
But there are actual sources from escaped prisoners and former members of groups like Isis that state that they do not pray or read the books or anything of the sort that would actually make them religious people. They are extremists, but calling themselves 'religious extremists' is simply fuel for the fire. How much of that which is untrue isn't for sure, but they are not a religious extremist group by their numbers.
People refuse to educate themselves on this because they are more comfortable believing what they're told and feel is more fitting to reality. As Victor said, there is a "gross oversimplification" of these matters. And people simply abide by it for the sake of not feeling associated with it.


What I actually came here to say was that I guess someone set off a firecracker at some event in France and everybody stampeded out thinking they were being attacked. It stupid that they need to live in fear of things like this. Violence begets violence. But if so, and things like this just go around and around: where does it even end?

 

[Pinwheel]

The only person who can't get their emotions in check in this discussion is you clearly because you think this is event is a case of causation =/= correlation in which I have never insinuated in the first place.

My thinking that causation =/= correlation being relevant to the discussion means I can't get my emotions in check? Boy is that a funny non-sequitur.

Your counter argument holds no merit and the fact that you're comparing the events of what is happening in the middle east to something completely irrelevant shows how ignorant you are to global events in the past century.

Pretty much just showcasing how you aren't understanding my argument. I didn't attack the premise of your argument, I was giving you an example of why the form you presented it in is wrong, while you're constantly insisting that my use of an analogy in a different region of the world is somehow the point of it and it makes me ignorant of global affairs. It seems pointless to continue if the point I'm making is never going to be seen.

 

[Professor Ven]

People refuse to educate themselves on this because they are more comfortable believing what they're told and feel is more fitting to reality. As Victor said, there is a "gross oversimplification" of these matters. And people simply abide by it for the sake of not feeling associated with it.


What I actually came here to say was that I guess someone set off a firecracker at some event in France and everybody stampeded out thinking they were being attacked. It stupid that they need to live in fear of things like this. Violence begets violence. But if so, and things like this just go around and around: where does it even end?

Imagine it was your hometown that was attacked in a similar fashion (bombings, shootings, etc) - imagine how you would feel if a bomb-like sound went off close by - wouldn't you feel just as threatened or afraid? There is no one in this Forum who would say they wouldn't feel in a similar fashion. Those who dare to say otherwise are either ludicrous armchair warriors or psychopathic.

People will stop living in fear of reactions such as this when those same people disregard all political correctness towards religion and treat it for the private, social, normally nonviolent aspect that it has become in the West, and obviously not in the Middle East. Or, people can treat religion for the twisting, lying, and barbaric cults that it can morph itself into, and abolish it entirely to only textbooks.

When people grow up being educated that the various world religions themselves cannot hold diddly to any of their claims regarding any divine being(s), and that religion is nothing more than an attempt by humans in an earlier period to decipher answers to things such as the theory of germ disease, why the moon changes shapes in its revolution around Earth, why lightning occurs in thunderstorms, etc.

When the Middle Eastern countries are neutered to the point that the Catholic Church has become over the course of four centuries since Galileo's trial (400 years to the date in 2016), when they are as secular a state as any of the Western nations - and they may keep their individual and private religious affairs to themselves.

The great irony of the "refugee crisis" in Central and Southeastern Europe, the Balkans, etc, is that this great flood of Syrian, Afghan, Lebanese, Palestinian, Pakistani, Iraqi, and Iranian peoples have not bothered or were turned away from their sister countries that lie between the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea - Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Beirut, etc. They come to Germany and Britain in particular - they were perfectly safe in Greece upon entering. Hungary knows that the endgame will not be assimilation of the predominantly Muslim refugee population into the rest of its society (hence Hungary denies all refugees and built its border fence that is patrolled, it has only served to document all refugees who enter the country from a non-EU country as is the requirement, and then shipping them off to countries that will take these refugees).

Instead it will be much similar to France's problems in the early 2010s with the debate over the French government's banning of traditional facial and head coverings for a security measure. Non-assimilation, protests, riots, followed by acts of terrorism. Supposedly among this current wave of refugees was one or more of the terrorists from this shooting - who can say they will be the last to emerge? There will be another refugee wave, and another after that, Merkel has sent Germany and a majority of the EU into a fantastically morbid spiral into what will become a new wave of nationalism and neo-facism (as can emerge from France) from within the European nations by its natural citizens if the refugee waves are not stopped at the Greco-Turkish border and told, "No more", or, "Choose a country and prepare to assimilate on the country's terms, not yours."

[video=youtube;nZzT_pm10yY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZzT_pm10yY[/video]



And to whoever deleted my two previous posts either did not watch the four videos I posted on them (because the limit on videos are two to a single post, hence my double-posting, otherwise I would have placed them into a single one), or were "offended" by their content. I'm only disappointed in your choice of choosing for whoever happens to read this entire thread being denied my views and opinions via those videos - because you must have a greater knowledge than everyone else on this Forum of what is acceptable free speech and opinion and what is not. According to whomever deleted my two posts, I am not allowed to possibly offend others with my opinion in a manner I find acceptable by majority of users. To deny any offense in a civil manner through oral, written, or video format is no better than when a small Scandinavian nation was more or less held hostage because of some satirical doodles by the same sort of ideologies that propagated this recent terrorist attack in France.​

 

[Pinwheel]

According to whomever deleted my two posts, I am not allowed to possibly offend others with my opinion in a manner I find acceptable by majority of users. To deny any offense in a civil manner through oral, written, or video format is no better than when a small Scandinavian nation was more or less held hostage because of some satirical doodles by the same sort of ideologies that propagated this recent terrorist attack in France.

If you want to make this a moral crusade of some sorts, that's totally fine, lol. I deleted them because you double posted two videos in each post without explaining why you were sharing them or making any sort of commentary about them. It's fine if you want to post videos here, just don't double post two separate sets of videos without explaining why you're sharing them or saying anything about them.

 

[Professor Ven]

If you want to make this a moral crusade of some sorts, that's totally fine, lol. I deleted them because you double posted two videos in each post without explaining why you were sharing them or making any sort of commentary about them. It's fine if you want to post videos here, just don't double post two separate sets of videos without explaining why you're sharing them or saying anything about them.

And to whoever deleted my two previous posts either did not watch the four videos I posted on them (because the limit on videos are two to a single post, hence my double-posting, otherwise I would have placed them into a single one), or were "offended" by their content.​

There was no point in commenting on the videos - they spoke for themselves and were on topic had you watched them. Their titles alone were pretty self-explanatory to anyone who had made it 5 pages into this topic.


Not going any further with this either, just going to rest my case here.