Time Travel is Confusing..

[Hirokey123]

Oh please don't get me wrong I'm not saying Audo is wrong. But what I am saying is that there isn't anything really backing up the HB stuff being evolved beyond circumstantial evidence. Like yeah Xion is an incomplete replica of Sora that is absolutely a fact, but that's got nothing to do with Xemnas's HB visit. Xion became an imperfect replica of Sora because later on in her life she sucked away so many of Sora's memories through Roxas that she was now approaching a point in which she would be a full on copy of Sora.

The only thing to maybe suggest it is Xion was finished on Day 6 which is the same day Xemnas fought Sora. But even more than that is the narrative purpose of the whole thing. Like there is already a pretty detailed showing/explanation on how Xion formed herself from Sora's memories. What logic is there and turning around and saying that before she built herself from Sora's memories... she was already built from a copy of Sora's memories?

I mean yes Nomura does do unnecessary explanations and complications all the time but they always have a sense of purpose in them no matter how twisted, silly, and ridiculously unnecessary they may be. I mean love Xion she is my favorite character but I acknowledge she herself wasn't "needed". BUT from a narrative person she made sense to introduce it gave someone who is Roxas's own age that Roxas can better relate to creating for a more engaging narrative. It also allowed Roxas someone on his level he can bounce ideas off as well as someone who is the opposite gender (cause you know Larxene is dead). Which is an important thing to have when you're making a story about a child growing and maturing as a person. Retroactively it also answered a rather gaping hole in story on what the whole point of the replica project and Castle Oblivion's original plan was.

 

[Audo]

I mean, the fact that Xemnas literally does the "phase through memory sample" to Sora in the fight, the same way that the Org members obtained the data to make replicas and cards in CO, doesn't just seem like a coincidence? The fact that Xion is made the same day. And so on. One could easily surmise they used the data from Sora to create a link between Xion and Sora/Roxas. Nothing else really has to change.

Of course they never outright state the connection, but to me that was a rare moment where S-E allowed fans to connect the dots on their own.

Like by suggesting they aren't connected you're sort of arguing that Days is even more frivolous than even previously imaginable because now it doesn't even connect to that moment, lol.

(lol this was like one of the few things i actually liked about days so this is humourous to me. if i agree with your reading then days is even more of a trashbucket)

 

[Hirokey123]

Yeah thing is I'm pretty certain that wasn't what the Org was doing in CoM, it's just what they were trying to make Sora think they were doing. Like here is the thing not a single one of those worlds we go to actually play out the events of Sora's memories in KH1 they all play out fake memories Namine made. The whole idea was the Organization was trying to trick Sora into thinking he was exploring the worlds of his memory. When in reality the fabrications existed so that Sora wouldn't realize these are fake memories Namine is inserting into him as she slow remakes his heart. Like we know this is the case with a number of the cards they give because so many of these cards exist ahead of time. Take Larxene we see her be given a card and then later on she pulls out this card and says "I made this just now from your memories while we fought" which is a lie because we know she had that card on her. The Organization are bunch of liars in CoM just about everything they say to Sora is a lie I've never actually seen a reason to trust that stuff about the cards was true.

Though given Marluxia is the only one who does that to Sora it's possible that Marluxia's first card was the real deal...though I think that was just a narrative device intended to parallel the meeting with Xemnas. You know a way to hammer in that man in front of you wearing the same cloak is the same type of being. CoM also seemed to have been made in the time when ideas about Nobodies were lot less concrete and Nomura was throwing in stuff to make them more ghosty/nothing like. I mean in KH1 Xemnas seems to stop time and fade in and out of existence none of which are abilities he exhibits later.

Also I'm not really gonna get into a huge Days importance debate but Days connects and explains numerous things in the story, removing this tiny connection doesn't somehow diminish that Days has more plot revelations and connections than pretty much any other game in the series. But I digress I don't want to debate on Days importance I think I've pretty much worn myself ragged at this point when it comes to that. I will state again though you're free to believe what you like, I never said you were wrong just that it's not something terribly well supported.

 

[Audo]

Yeah thing is I'm pretty certain that wasn't what the Org was doing in CoM, it's just what they were trying to make Sora think they were doing. Like here is the thing not a single one of those worlds we go to actually play out the events of Sora's memories in KH1 they all play out fake memories Namine made. The whole idea was the Organization was trying to trick Sora into thinking he was exploring the worlds of his memory. When in reality the fabrications existed so that Sora wouldn't realize these are fake memories Namine is inserting into him as she slow remakes his heart. Like we know this is the case with a number of the cards they give because so many of these cards exist ahead of time. Take Larxene we see her be given a card and then later on she pulls out this card and says "I made this just now from your memories while we fought" which is a lie because we know she had that card on her. The Organization are bunch of liars in CoM just about everything they say to Sora is a lie I've never actually seen a reason to trust that stuff about the cards was true.

Though given Marluxia is the only one who does that to Sora it's possible that Marluxia's first card was the real deal...though I think that was just a narrative device intended to parallel the meeting with Xemnas. You know a way to hammer in that man in front of you wearing the same cloak is the same type of being. CoM also seemed to have been made in the time when ideas about Nobodies were lot less concrete and Nomura was throwing in stuff to make them more ghosty/nothing like. I mean in KH1 Xemnas seems to stop time and fade in and out of existence none of which are abilities he exhibits later.

I feel you're kinda going off the deep end with this reading now lol.

Also I'm not really gonna get into a huge Days importance debate but Days connects and explains numerous things in the story, removing this tiny connection doesn't somehow diminish that Days has more plot revelations and connections than pretty much any other game in the series.

Oof. Yeah we are not in agreement, at all.

But let's just drop this. I really do not have energy to debate Days of all things (especially in a thread about KH3D and time travel lol).

 

[OkaruAudo]

Okay guys! So two more questions! How did Riku know to discourage Sora his dreams, and how did Riku plan to.. What was it, consume darkness and then turn it to light?

 

[BlackOsprey]

Riku's always been a pretty sharp and observant guy. He could probably tell just by looking that those dreams Sora was chasing after were what was keeping him asleep.

As for consuming the darkness... He's a Spirit Dream Eater. That's just what they do.

 

[OkaruAudo]

But.. It was the darkness inside him. So when he became a dream eater he gained the ability?

 

[OkaruAudo]

Also who was the cloaked nightmare?

 

[Audo]

Also who was the cloaked nightmare?

No one. It was just a physical manifestation of Sora's Nightmare.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

Also who was the cloaked nightmare?

Audo is right in terms of which "character" as it isn't really a character, but you can deduce its "origin" by a little observation.

Riku has the Spirit Dream Eater symbol on his back designating him as a benevolent Spirit Dream Eater, but the Anti-Black-Coat (that's the name of this "thing") has the Nightmare Dream Eater symbol at the exact same place Riku has his Spirit symbol and is of roughly the same height.

Most Dream Eaters you get to see in the game have a Spirit and a Nightmare version, the same goes for the Dream Eater "Riku" as well and the Anti-Black-Coat is the Nightmare Version.

 

[Hirokey123]

I'm still amused that the original plan would of been to fight a giant nightmare meow wow. Like you make it to the top of TWTNW with all this climactic ominous stuff going on and suddenly you're greeted by a giant fat cat-dog-unicorn fusion. I legit can't think of what could of been a bigger mood killer had they gone through with that idea.

 

[redcrown]

So Ansem was still in Riku's heart in DDD, even after the light explosion of KH2 that was made pretty clear eradicated Ansem completely from his heart?

Riku has the Spirit Dream Eater symbol on his back designating him as a benevolent Spirit Dream Eater, but the Anti-Black-Coat (that's the name of this "thing") has the Nightmare Dream Eater symbol at the exact same place Riku has his Spirit symbol and is of roughly the same height.

Most Dream Eaters you get to see in the game have a Spirit and a Nightmare version, the same goes for the Dream Eater "Riku" as well and the Anti-Black-Coat is the Nightmare Version.

Is this the official explanation or is this you putting it together? Because you are either too observant for these games or I'm oblivious.

 

[BlackOsprey]

So Ansem was still in Riku's heart in DDD, even after the light explosion of KH2 that was made pretty clear eradicated Ansem completely from his heart?

That explosion never actually eradicated Riku's darkness, and as long as Riku still had memories of Ansem, the creep was able to manifest in Riku's darkness. If you wanna use Hirokey's jelly analogy, it just allowed Riku to scoop it all up and seal it back inside the jar, restoring him to his original appearance.

The difference in DDD is that whole "consume the darkness, return it to light" ability that Riku gained, which pretty much neutralized any of Ansem's lurking.

 

[redcrown]

That explosion never actually eradicated Riku's darkness, and as long as Riku still had memories of Ansem, the creep was able to manifest in Riku's darkness.

So it was just really a memory of Ansem, and not exactly as powerful and settled in Riku's heart as he was CoM to end of KH2? I didn't know Ansem was going to be permanently in Riku's darkness. Does the game itself state this?

and no I don't want to use the jelly jar analogy lol. It just makes it even more confusing, and gross.

 

[Hirokey123]

Not a memory think of it more like Ansem's essence, "Ansem's shadow/the shadow of the seeker of darkness" is what the game calls him. His mind and his darkness merged with Riku's own darkness effectively making them one and the same forever. So long as Riku's darkness existed Ansem's shadow could return through it again and again, he says as much at the end of the game which is why he is smiling as he explodes. And the series ultimania does leave it clear since it flat out states that Ansem ceased to exist as a heartless post-kh1 and instead from then on existed as the darkness in Riku.

Though Namine does pretty much all but flat out state if she locked away Riku's memories of the whole thing Ansem would never be able to bother him again. Of course that comes at the price of forgetting those memories.

 

[OkaruAudo]

So then wouldn't Riku's internal Ansem shadow thing need to also be destroyed before Xehanort reformed?

 

[BlackOsprey]

So then wouldn't Riku's internal Ansem shadow thing need to also be destroyed before Xehanort reformed?

Not really. That "Ansem shadow thing" is Riku's memory made manifest. It's a separate entity from Xehanort's actual Heartless. In a way, it's pretty much every negative aspect of darkness given a face and a personality. (And like the post above mentioned, if Riku had the memory locked away, this "Ansem" would cease to exist.)

 

[OkaruAudo]

Okay thank you very much that helps explain it!

Hey, so how do dreams work in this game exactly. Riku dove into Sora's dream. But how? Was it like the dreams we have? Or are dreams in KH different?

 

[Muke]

You triple posted. Please stop.

Also, did you finish the game? If not, definitely do so! It answers lotta questions xD

 

[OkaruAudo]

Sorry for that. Wish there was a delete option.. And no I'm close, but I feel that won't be explained so late.