Time Travel is Confusing..



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OkaruAudo

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So, I'm playing the game and Yen Sid and Mickey, Goofy and Donald are talking about how Xehanort went about travelling through time to get to the Sleeping Realm.

Goofy: But what if he did the same thing as Sora and Riku did, and he
jumped through time?

Yen Sid: For that to work, a version of himself would have had to exist at
both source and destination. Not even Xehanort can transport his whole body
across vast reaches of time.

Mickey: Oh... Oh no. I remember--Xehanort did give up his body. It was a
version of him that was possessing Riku.

(Yen Sid's eyes grow wide)

Yen Sid: No! It cannot be. Could he be that cunning, possess that kind of
foresight?

Mickey: If it's all right with you, can I go help Sora and Riku out?

Yen Sid: How? You cannot enter the world of a dream. Where will you go?

Mickey: If Xehanort really is behind all this, then they won't stay in the
dream worlds forever. Eventually, they're gonna reappear somewhere that we
can go reach 'em. And we can even probably guess the place. Follow the
hearts, and you'll find the way.


And here is some from the script. First of all I understand that Sora, Riku and Xehanort travelled to when Destiny Islands collapsed to the darkness. But when Yen Sid said that he would need a version of himself at the destination and the source, what did he mean? And Mickey was talking about him giving up his body. That's to do with the guy in the robe right? But where does that fit in? Because they shouldn't know that he was there without a body. I'm super confused.

Later in that cutscene Yen Sid also said he felt Riku's heart in the Realm In Between. Wasn't he in the Dream Realm?
 

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And here is some from the script. First of all I understand that Sora, Riku and Xehanort travelled to when Destiny Islands collapsed to the darkness. But when Yen Sid said that he would need a version of himself at the destination and the source, what did he mean? And Mickey was talking about him giving up his body. That's to do with the guy in the robe right? But where does that fit in? Because they shouldn't know that he was there without a body. I'm super confused.

Later in that cutscene Yen Sid also said he felt Riku's heart in the Realm In Between. Wasn't he in the Dream Realm?
Sora and Riku didn't really travel by themselves, but they were sent into the past by Yen Sid in order to find a gateway into the Realm of Sleep when Destiny Islands plunged into Darkness by the time of KH 1.

What Yen Sid means by that a person can only travel through time to a point where a version of the person already exists (as an anchor and "lighthouse" so to speak).
Xehanort did give up his body between Birth by Sleep and KH 1, that's why he split into a Heartless and Nobody, to discard his body.

You haven't yet finished the game I assume, so more explanations are still in store here, but yeah, the guy in the robe is the key.
Actually, the guy in the robe you see here and the guy in the robe seen in KH 1 who speaks with Sora in the cave and who later speaks with Riku at Hollow Bastion is the very same entity.
Mickey knows about Xehanort giving up his body because he needed Riku's body to wield the dark Keyblade in KH 1, that's why he possessed him back during KH 1.

As for Riku's heart being felt, there are forces at work that lead Sora (and by extension also Riku) astray and the worlds of the In-between realm have special properties so some of them can exist in the Dream Realm and the Between realm at once at the same time.
Once you reach the last world (the 7th) many things will be explained...and some things may get even more confusing, lol.
 

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Yen Sid says "I will reutrn you".



At 21:51 of the vid.So basically Yen Sid was their trip into the past.
 

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Yen Sid was not responsible for their being able to time travel, actually. It's a misconception based on the way the line was translated for the English version (the actual Japanese line says "I want the two of you to return..."). Sora and Riku time travel in the exact same way that Xehanort time travels, the game establishes this in a few places in the story

First of all I understand that Sora, Riku and Xehanort travelled to when Destiny Islands collapsed to the darkness. But when Yen Sid said that he would need a version of himself at the destination and the source, what did he mean?
In Kingdom Hearts, in order to time travel a version of yourself has to be there, in that time and place, of where you want to go. Yen Sid is basically saying that Xehanort can't freely move anywhere through time -- that he is also bound by this rule of only being able to travel to places a version of himself is. So Yen Sid is dismissing that Xehanort could've been interfering with Sora/Riku because the only way it's possible would be for Xehanort to have planned it, in the past, to be there the night DI fell to darkness in order to interfere with S/R's journey into the dream realm.

And Mickey was talking about him giving up his body. That's to do with the guy in the robe right? But where does that fit in? Because they shouldn't know that he was there without a body. I'm super confused.
In Kingdom Hearts, in order to gain the ability to time travel one must first toss aside their body and become an existence of only a heart (once gained you cannot lose the ability, even if you become complete). There is a bit of mistranslation going on in this scene as well, but basically, Mickey is saying that Xehanort did have the means to time travel (by giving up his body) and that he now remembers that it was a version of Xehanort who was possessing Riku, leading them to believe that Xehanort had been there when DI fell to darkness. And since Xehanort was there, that means the other Xehanorts could time travel to that night and interfere with Sora and Riku's journey into the Realm of Sleep, hence why they are spurred to action based on this revelation.

Later in that cutscene Yen Sid also said he felt Riku's heart in the Realm In Between. Wasn't he in the Dream Realm?
Worlds situation in the Realm Between are special worlds which operate under special conditions. InBetween Realm worlds exist simultaneously in the Ream of Sleep and the Realm Between. When Riku arrives in TWTNW, it's possible for Yen Sid to have felt his heart then.

Another explanation is that the Realm of Sleep does not operate under real time, which means all the "outside" cutscenes (aka the ones involving Mickey and Lea) are happening in the future, so to speak. The scene with Yen Sid, while it comes before you experience it yourself, could actually be happening later in the story than one would think. (As in, Yen Sid feels when Riku arrives in the real TWTNW and is commenting on that even though this scene is shown to the player before the player themselves gets to that part in the story)
 

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Okay. Well this got a whole lot more confusing on Sora's visit to TWTNW! Wow! More questions ahead lol.

So Braig called Sora sleepyhead and said he would never wake up. So Sora and Riku were asleep that whole time in the realm of dreams?

Sora was surprised when he saw Braig and said, "you're a part of this?" why is that significant to him? He just didn't expect a past Organization member to trouble him?

The man in the robe, Xehanort's heart, had no shell and that's why he had the robe, but is that why the nobody and heartless were created? Then wouldn't a heartless have been created when he took Terra's body? And, what happened to Terra's body after all this? Who possessed Riku? His heartless or his heart? That's confusing me.

How was Young Xehanort speaking to the robe guy? Did YX go into the future? Or Xehanort's heart into the past?

If you have to separate your heart from your body to go in the past, where are Sora and Riku's bodies? Those can't just be hearts can they? Because Xehanort said you must leave your body behind to travel in time.

Why do the two look so much younger? What happened with that?

How did ASoD predict all this?!

YX says, "Ansem first sent me on my way, then placed himself here when the time was right. That was what set all these events in motion." What did he mean by any of this? Sent him where? Was YX time travelling too then? When did YX and Xehanort's heart talk then? If afterwards he came to the DI where it collapsed. Did he travel back to talk to YX and then wait? It's so confusing!!!

This game is so confusing what the hell!
 

OkaruAudo

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This game is almost giving me a headache because when it comes to Kingdom Hearts I feel the need to know every little detail and it's often not easy to find it all. Man this is confusing!
 

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So Braig called Sora sleepyhead and said he would never wake up. So Sora and Riku were asleep that whole time in the realm of dreams?
Yeah they were in various states of sleep while in the Realm of Sleep. This is why you see them "sleep" every time they drop.

Sora was surprised when he saw Braig and said, "you're a part of this?" why is that significant to him? He just didn't expect a past Organization member to trouble him?
I mean it's not anything super deep or significant. Just that Sora knew something was wrong and when Braig showed up it's basically just a "so you're behind this" sort of thing.

The man in the robe, Xehanort's heart, had no shell and that's why he had the robe, but is that why the nobody and heartless were created?
I'm not sure what you mean by this? Apprentice Xehanort cast off his body. The heart/heartless was Ansem (the Brown Robed man) while his body became Xemnas.

Then wouldn't a heartless have been created when he took Terra's body?
The Brown Robed man didn't take Terra's body? Xehanort did.

And, what happened to Terra's body after all this?
What happened to Terra's body and heart are a mystery for KH3 to solve.

Who possessed Riku? His heartless or his heart? That's confusing me.
The Brown Robed Man, Ansem -- Xehanort's Heartless half -- possessed Riku.

How was Young Xehanort speaking to the robe guy? Did YX go into the future? Or Xehanort's heart into the past?
Ansem traveled into the past to speak to his Younger Self and pass on the ability to travel time to him.

If you have to separate your heart from your body to go in the past, where are Sora and Riku's bodies? Those can't just be hearts can they? Because Xehanort said you must leave your body behind to travel in time.
You only have to cast off your body "first" to obtain the ability to travel time. Once you gain the ability, you don't lose it even if you become complete again. In KH1, both Sora and Riku were existences of only a heart for a short period of time, this gave them the ability to time travel. When they later became whole, they retained this ability.

Why do the two look so much younger? What happened with that?
This is due to Yen Sid's magic. It's mostly a symbolic thing to represent them having to start their Keyblade training anew. The new clothes are also part of Yen Sid's magic.

How did ASoD predict all this?!
It certainly stretches believability (hence why Yen Sid is so shocked that Xehanort DID predict/plan all of this) but basically Ansem knew that at one point the heroes would need to save those who sleep in slumber and the way to accomplish that meant gaining power from the Realm of Sleep so he orchestrated it all to happen on that one day, to ensure that everyone would be there in that point in time.

YX says, "Ansem first sent me on my way, then placed himself here when the time was right. That was what set all these events in motion." What did he mean by any of this? Sent him where? Was YX time travelling too then? When did YX and Xehanort's heart talk then? If afterwards he came to the DI where it collapsed. Did he travel back to talk to YX and then wait? It's so confusing!!!
Yes... YMX is time traveling. Ansem went back in time, passed on the ability to time travel to his younger self. He instructed his younger self to travel forward through time and gather various versions of himself throughout time all in order for them to meet up when DI fell to darkness and became a sleeping world. This allowed YMX to enter the Realm of Sleep at the same time as Sora and Riku and interfere with their plans.
 

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Okay thank you. That helped a lot. So the brown robed man is the heartless of Xehanort? He didn't have an appearance? All heartless do. Unless I misunderstood.

And let's go back a while, what happened to Ansem SoD? I know Sora defeated him but at the same time he's in Riku's heart? Or is it his darkness that was in his heart, and in Re:COM he over came the darkness?
 

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Okay thank you. That helped a lot. So the brown robed man is the heartless of Xehanort? He didn't have an appearance? All heartless do. Unless I misunderstood.
You can sort of consider Ansem to be a Special Heartless. He is technically one, but his heart didn't undergo the typical transformation of a heartless. This is why YMX refers to him as Xehanort "reduced to just his heart".

And let's go back a while, what happened to Ansem SoD? I know Sora defeated him but at the same time he's in Riku's heart? Or is it his darkness that was in his heart, and in Re:COM he over came the darkness?
In KH1, Ansem possesed Riku's body and then kicked Riku's heart out of it. The Ansem you see in the endgame of KH1 is effectively Ansem's Heart + Riku's Body. When Ansem is "defeated" by the light of Kingdom Hearts, Riku's body returns to his heart behind the Door to Darkness. However Ansem's heart still lingered in that body, and threatened to take over Riku's heart once again. When DiZ's Heart Encoder machine exploded at the end of KH2 it purged Ansem's heart from Riku's body, defeating it for good.
 

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Oh sweet! Thank you so much! You're a Kingdom Hearts genius!

Think there's potential of a heartless and nobody of Riku existing since his heart separated?
 

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Think there's potential of a heartless and nobody of Riku existing since his heart separated?
No. There's no real potential for it. Riku's heart never became a heartless, and his body never truly casted off (since it was occupied by Ansem) meaning there's no Nobody either.
 

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Okay thank you. That helped a lot. So the brown robed man is the heartless of Xehanort? He didn't have an appearance? All heartless do. Unless I misunderstood.

And let's go back a while, what happened to Ansem SoD? I know Sora defeated him but at the same time he's in Riku's heart? Or is it his darkness that was in his heart, and in Re:COM he over came the darkness?
Whatever is under the brown robe IS his appearance just like Sora's appearance was that little shadow. The Ansem SoD with the silver hair and so on we see later is the very same being but when possessing Riku's body.

After KH 1 Ansem SoD's heart was still taking a ride inside Riku's darkness, as we witness in Chain of Memories. While Riku did defeat Ansem in CoM and thus prevented him from taking control again he was still there.
It's not until the Heart encoder of Ansem the Wise explodes in KH 2 that Ansem SoD gets purged from within Riku's Darkness.
What exactly happens afterwards to Ansem SoD as a being is unknown to us right now, the only thing we do know is that he counts as destroyed since then and why you'll see when you play further especially in Riku's story.

You're pretty near to some more rather big reveals anyways, lol.
Xemnas will also have some more things to explain further down Sora's story. ;)

Edit: Ninja'd
 

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DiZ's big game plan in CoM is to get Riku to acknowledge his darkness and defeat the influence of Ansem in his heart. To make things easier, he sets Ansem up as an antagonist early on so Riku will have something to focus on, I suppose. You don't actually meet the real Ansem-in-Riku's-Heart until the battle with Lexaeus.

DiZ may also be using the disguise to hide himself from the Organization. He doesn't cast it off until they're all dead (except Axel, that is, but he might not have known that).
 

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Ansem was destroyed in KH1 by Sora and Kingdom Hearts, that's when he was counted as defeated. What was in Riku in CoM onward was not the actual heart of Ansem, it was a remnant a shadow it's even called by the name of "the shadow of Ansem". It was an intrinsic part of Riku that would exist within him for as long as Riku held darkness in his heart (something the shadow says at the end of CoM), it's part of Riku, it is Riku to an extent. CoM onward he learned to keep the shadow locked away with a struggle, released it and could no longer lock it back up, and then the encoder explosion blasted Riku with enough light that he returned to being Riku keeping the darkness locked away without struggle.

At the start of DDD Riku is angsting because he knows that shadow still has a grip on his heart and while he can keep it locked up there is always a chance he might go down the same path as Xehanort again down the line, having heard how similar he was to the actual Xehanort, and so he decided he test himself. The shadow of Ansem is the thing he is referring to when he talks about keeping something locked up and others are telling him to set something free, and....well it's actually not at all a mystery what the state of the shadow of Ansem is...but to say more crosses into DDD spoilers.
 
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Ansem was destroyed in KH1 by Sora and Kingdom Hearts, that's when he was counted as defeated. What was in Riku in CoM onward was not the actual heart of Ansem, it was a remnant a shadow it's even called by the name of "the shadow of Ansem". It was an intrinsic part of Riku that would exist within him for as long as Riku held darkness in his heart (something the shadow says at the end of CoM), it's part of Riku, it is Riku to an extent. CoM onward he learned to keep the shadow locked away with a struggle, released it and could no longer lock it back up, and then the encoder explosion blasted Riku with enough light that he returned to being Riku keeping the darkness locked away without struggle.

At the start of DDD Riku is angsting because he knows that shadow still has a grip on his heart and while he can keep it locked up there is always a chance he might go down the same path as Xehanort again down the line, having heard how similar he was to the actual Xehanort, and so he decided he test himself. The shadow of Ansem is the thing he is referring to when he talks about keeping something locked up and others are telling him to set something free, and....well it's actually not at all a mystery what the state of the shadow of Ansem is...but to say more crosses into DDD spoilers.
Nomura makes it pretty clear that Xehanort's Heartless actually did still reside in Riku.

---In Riku's ending in [KH Re:CoM], could you tell us the meaning of the scene where the King and Riku are walking together and Riku suddenly plops down.
Nomura: That's because Riku realized he couldn't completely get rid of the darkness inside of him. The King mentioned it in [KHII], that because Riku held Xehanort's heartless in his heart he disappeared from the King's sight.
Like it's not just a metaphor/symbolic thing. Riku really did hold the remnant of Xehanort's Heartless.
 

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Hm.. How come Sora saw Namine and Xion and Roxas? He's dreaming right? What did Roxas mean it needed to be Sora? Thr one to fully exist? Roxas said, "you're me, you can feel what I felt." What did he mean by that? And what did Sora mean when he said, "did they cause all this pain?" Did he mean Organization XIII?

How is Riku speaking to him? And is this all to make him fall into darkness?
 

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Hm.. How come Sora saw Namine and Xion and Roxas? He's dreaming right?
Yes.

What did Roxas mean it needed to be Sora? Thr one to fully exist?
Yes.

Roxas said, "you're me, you can feel what I felt." What did he mean by that?
Nobodies were taught to believe that their "Other Self" was them, their true self. Roxas struggled with the belief that he was Sora and that Sora was him. That they weren't individual people, but that Roxas was just a part of him, etc. So he's echoing that in this scene. The "You can feel what I felt" just means that because of their connection, Roxas can share his feelings and memories with Sora, which is what happens.

And what did Sora mean when he said, "did they cause all this pain?" Did he mean Organization XIII?
Presumably, yeah.

How is Riku speaking to him?
You'll find out when you play through Riku's Side.

And is this all to make him fall into darkness?
Yes.

You actually seem to grasp this stuff a lot, you just second guess yourself lol.
 
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