Time Travel is Confusing..



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Hirokey123

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Nomura makes it pretty clear that Xehanort's Heartless actually did still reside in Riku.



Like it's not just a metaphor/symbolic thing. Riku really did hold the remnant of Xehanort's Heartless.
As a character yes Xehanort's heartless was inside of Riku which is what Nomura is referring to there and it's all that matters to Riku because it means Ansem is very much alive in him. But the actual heart of Xehanort was not, Ansem effectively shifted which heart he existed in. The series ultimania that gives us a comprehensive explanation on Xehanort and his timeline even put and to this age old debate because it directly states that Ansem ceased to exist as a heartless post KH1 and instead existed as Riku's darkness.
Spoiler Spoiler Show

It's an important distinction for two big reasons. The first being it makes him a separate being from Xehanort whose existence post-KH1 had no bearing on Xehanort's revival and also why the games and even Riku himself always make the distinction that this is "Ansem's shadow" instead of being the actual heartless AnsemSoD. The second gets into DDD spoilers so I'll tag it....

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 

Sephiroth0812

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Or to summarize it short and sweet in accordance with Blank Points from BBS:
The "Ansem" inside Riku is actually a failed Xehanort-Seed, one that didn't succeed in its mission. ;P
 

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As a character yes Xehanort's heartless was inside of Riku which is what Nomura is referring to there and it's all that matters to Riku because it means Ansem is very much alive in him. But the actual heart of Xehanort was not, Ansem effectively shifted which heart he existed in. The series ultimania that gives us a comprehensive explanation on Xehanort and his timeline even put and to this age old debate because it directly states that Ansem ceased to exist as a heartless post KH1 and instead existed as Riku's darkness.
Spoiler Spoiler Show

It's an important distinction for two big reasons. The first being it makes him a separate being from Xehanort whose existence post-KH1 had no bearing on Xehanort's revival and also why the games and even Riku himself always make the distinction that this is "Ansem's shadow" instead of being the actual heartless AnsemSoD. The second gets into DDD spoilers so I'll tag it....

Spoiler Spoiler Show
Something about your reading just doesn't sit right with me, but I fully acknowledge it could very well be right.
I mean the way you write about it you're basically saying that the Ansem that appears in CoM is in no way, shape or form related to the actual Ansem, and that it's just a representation of Riku's Darkness (" It was an intrinsic part of Riku that would exist within him for as long as Riku held darkness in his heart , it's part of Riku, it is Riku to an extent. "), right? But that doesn't seem right.

Unless I'm misinterpreting you and we're basically saying the same thing (Remnant of Xehanort's Heartless, just not his full heart as it was previously known)
 

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Hey I got some more questions after Xemnas revealed a lot and don't want to bother others with a new thread if that's alright guys.

Xigbar, or is it Braig? Said that they did not put all those visions in Sora's head, but that it was a dream, so why was Riku so adament to stop him? Does it explain that on Riku's side?

Sora said his heart ached, and Xigbar/Braig said that his heart walked him right into their clutches. What did he mean by that?

Thirteen Xehanorts? How would they turn into Xehanort? Xigbar/Braig said he was already a half Xehanort.

Xemnas said they achieved their other goals and that it was a good closing assignment for the organization. What plans? What assignment?

Was Sora walking while he was asleep then? Why did he shoot from the sky?
 

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Xigbar, or is it Braig? Said that they did not put all those visions in Sora's head, but that it was a dream, so why was Riku so adament to stop him? Does it explain that on Riku's side?
Yeah it explains it on Riku's side.

Sora said his heart ached, and Xigbar/Braig said that his heart walked him right into their clutches. What did he mean by that?
In Re:Coded it's established that hurt and pain can cause darkness to grow in your heart. Sora followed his heart, but it let him down painful paths which caused his heart to succumb to the darkness, hence why Xigbar says Sora's heart led him right into their plan.

Thirteen Xehanorts? How would they turn into Xehanort? Xigbar/Braig said he was already a half Xehanort.
This is explained a bit more in Riku's Side, but basically Xehanort implants his heart into many people, Braig being one of them.

Xemnas said they achieved their other goals and that it was a good closing assignment for the organization. What plans? What assignment?
It's meant to be vague what their other goals and plans were. But the "closing assignment" is referring to capturing Sora as a vessel and Xehanort's plan overall (which again is explained more on Riku's Side)

Was Sora walking while he was asleep then? Why did he shoot from the sky?
In the dream Sora was walking, while in the outside, real world, he was asleep. You see the events of Sora's dream from Riku's Side, which will hopefully explain more for you.
 

Hirokey123

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Hrm Audo maybe a visual metaphor for my Ansem stuff be better?

Spoiler Spoiler Show


You know that sounded all a lot less errotic in my head....
 

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Thanks, Hirokey. Now I won't be able to play or discuss Kingdom Hearts without remembering sentient darkness jelly.
 

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Hirokey, what the hell did I just read? Like, it was a really good metaphor and helped me to understand it quite a bit, but.. What? Why?
 

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Hrm Audo maybe a visual metaphor for my Ansem stuff be better?

Spoiler Spoiler Show


You know that sounded all a lot less errotic in my head....
Thanks. I still don't agree with your entire reading, but I definitely understand where you're coming from and what you mean now.
 

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Guys! Hirokey has the answer!! XEHANORT EATS DARKNESS JELLY, THAT'S HOW HE DID IT!
 

Sephiroth0812

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Yen Sid was not responsible for their being able to time travel, actually. It's a misconception based on the way the line was translated for the English version (the actual Japanese line says "I want the two of you to return..."). Sora and Riku time travel in the exact same way that Xehanort time travels, the game establishes this in a few places in the story
Seems like I overread that one but wait, what?
So Yen Sid actually did say something else in the Japanese original?

Well, that complicates the whole time-travel stuff certainly further as then Riku and Sora do not follow all the rules Xehanort has to follow.

Sora said his heart ached, and Xigbar/Braig said that his heart walked him right into their clutches. What did he mean by that?
I'd like to elaborate a little on that as it is truly a crucial step that was heavily foreshadowed in Re: Coded and what actually happens there in DDD, the plan Xigbar, Young Xehanort and Xemnas are following on the orders of their true "boss", is exactly what Data-Naminé in Re: Coded warned about.

Sora's heart is aching because in these dream worlds he came into contact with the hearts of those who are connected to him and are suffering, that's why he first sees Naminé and Xion, then Roxas and later outright transforms into Ventus for a short while.
He touches their sleeping hearts and experiences all their pain and takes it on without thinking because of his desire to help, but by taking it on all at once his heart becomes vulnerable to Darkness and that's what Xigbar, Young Xehanort and Xemnas are exploiting for their own ends.

In the ending of Re: Coded this is explicitly addressed:
Re: Coded said:
Naminé: It all began with these memories that were sleeping way down deep in Sora's heart.

(An orb appears in front of them)

Sora: These are my memories?

Naminé: No. Not yours. These belong to people connected to you.

Sora: What? Isn't it weird for somebody else's memories to be inside me?

Naminé: Right, it's not usually possible. When I first found them while
repairing your memory, I thought I'd made a mistake. But all the evidence
I found proved they belong in your heart, where they've been sleeping a
long...long time. One day, Sora will have to call them to the surface.
They're important memories...but very dangerous ones.

Mickey: Dangerous how?

Naminé: These memories are too painful. Handled the wrong way, they could
damage Sora's heart--even break it.
I needed you to find a way to face
that kind of hurt. That's why I left the message.
This fact that Naminé warns about here is known to Xehanort as well and he uses it against Sora in his plans for gaining a new vessel.
 

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Well, that complicates the whole time-travel stuff certainly further as then Riku and Sora do not follow all the rules Xehanort has to follow.
If you're referring to the other oft-quoted Yen Sid line -- "Not even Xehanort can transport his whole body across vast reaches of time" -- that, too, is a mistranslation.

The line in Japanese is: "Even if Xehanort had suspected what we were doing, if he hadn't been there when Destiny Islands were swallowed by the darkness--that time, that place--he wouldn't have been able to get near Sora and Riku no matter what kind of power he had ... To travel through time, it is necessary for yourself to be there in that time and place. Xehanort should not have the ability to move his body freely through time like that."

Which is to say, "To time travel you need a version of yourself there. Not even Xehanort can break this rule and move freely through time anywhere he wants."

The line is not about the body, it's about how you cannot freely move through time. The English however omitted this one crucial word, leaving their translation to have a different implication. The English scene in general is actually mistranslated as it puts a huge emphasis on the state of Xehanort's body which is not at all present in the actual Japanese (where the emphasis is on a version of Xehanort being on DI). Basically, the localizers omitted a crucial word and then bent the scene to fit their translation of that line leading to accidental misinformation.

With this knowledge though, I think we can safely say that Sora and Riku and Xehanort all travel through time the same way, and do so without breaking any of the established rules.
 

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Hang on, so Sora saw all those things but that doesn't answer, how? Was it the three antagonists that planted the thoughts in his head? Xigbar said that wasn't the case. Was it some aspect of the dream realm?
 

OkaruAudo

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And how did Xehanort and Ansem time travel? It had to be before they were defeated, but Sora didn't go there by then. Or is that not how it works?
 

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Hang on, so Sora saw all those things but that doesn't answer, how? Was it the three antagonists that planted the thoughts in his head? Xigbar said that wasn't the case. Was it some aspect of the dream realm?
Sora's got all those people's memories in his heart, and those memories manifested as a dream. "Dreams hold our memories. Sleep holds our dreams. And darkness... it holds our sleep."

And how did Xehanort and Ansem time travel? It had to be before they were defeated, but Sora didn't go there by then. Or is that not how it works?
Seems like Mr. Robe Guy made the trip before he ever hijacked Riku. Whether he did it on his own or had Geezernort's help... I dunno. But he was certainly on the islands the day before it fell to darkness. That's when we got that infamous "One who knows nothing" for the first time.
 

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If you're referring to the other oft-quoted Yen Sid line -- "Not even Xehanort can transport his whole body across vast reaches of time" -- that, too, is a mistranslation.

The line in Japanese is: "Even if Xehanort had suspected what we were doing, if he hadn't been there when Destiny Islands were swallowed by the darkness--that time, that place--he wouldn't have been able to get near Sora and Riku no matter what kind of power he had ... To travel through time, it is necessary for yourself to be there in that time and place. Xehanort should not have the ability to move his body freely through time like that."

Which is to say, "To time travel you need a version of yourself there. Not even Xehanort can break this rule and move freely through time anywhere he wants."

The line is not about the body, it's about how you cannot freely move through time. The English however omitted this one crucial word, leaving their translation to have a different implication. The English scene in general is actually mistranslated as it puts a huge emphasis on the state of Xehanort's body which is not at all present in the actual Japanese (where the emphasis is on a version of Xehanort being on DI). Basically, the localizers omitted a crucial word and then bent the scene to fit their translation of that line leading to accidental misinformation.

With this knowledge though, I think we can safely say that Sora and Riku and Xehanort all travel through time the same way, and do so without breaking any of the established rules.
Jeez, that one is a more serious blunder on their part though as it serves to make an already difficult topic even more difficult to understand. <__<

Seen that way though it all makes sense again.

Hang on, so Sora saw all those things but that doesn't answer, how? Was it the three antagonists that planted the thoughts in his head? Xigbar said that wasn't the case. Was it some aspect of the dream realm?
The how was also already answered in my previous post.
Sora got to see these things and feel those people's pain because he accessed their sleeping hearts that are either inside his own heart or deeply connected to him.
Ventus', Xion's and Roxas' hearts are sleeping directly inside Sora and in the dream realm it is possible to access them. The antagonists didn't plant anything but merely put Sora to sleep and preyed upon Sora being his usual self and try to help the suffering ones which at that time was a bad idea because it endangered Sora's own heart, that's why Riku implored him to not "follow the dreams".
Xemnas, Young Xehanort and Xigbar then just sat back and watched Sora shouldering more and more pain which in turn made his heart more and more vulnerable due to the sheer amount of it and then striked when they deemed it sufficient enough to break it entirely.

You'll maybe understand it better once you are far enough on Riku's side and have actually beaten the true final boss.
Ansem the Wise has some more explanations in store. ;)
 

OkaruAudo

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True final boss? Heck, Xemnas is whoopin me but I attempted it at level 31 on Proud mode. The world is apparently a level 40 world. No wonder it made me rage...
 
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