The mystery surrounding the existences of Namine and Vanitas.

[Michael Mario]

Isn't it hard enough for Vanitas to be a Sora/DarkRiku/Repliku copy already?

No, seriously, I'd love the series to have more individual characters that are not
a) the physical twins of someone
b) part of a forced trio
c) keyblade wielders

etc.
That's one of the reasons I think they should put more effort into Naminé in KH3 or the next saga. She really has potential and is "different" from all the other characters who mostly seem to be copies of each other and I like that.
What I'm trying to say is: I don't need every character to be connected to another character to make them "similar" or even "the same" or "counterparts".

But sure, I wouldn't mind SE properly explaining how their existence is really possible or the "what if"s.

Hrm... No doubt Nam will play some role in restoring the likes of Roxas, Xion, and herself, but I'd imagine she's more likely to get greater focus next saga. With already have the secrets behind the Keyblade War coming from Chi, Xehanort's intricate scheme to forge the X-Blade and the mindscrewing shenanigans he pulls to make it happen, finding the seven Guardians of Light, saving the lost ones (Namine included), and whatever else Nomura has in store, there's not going to be a whole lot of room to really explore her. After Xehanort's dealt with, however...

...Hrm, y'know, that kind of depends on what they'll do with the series post-Xehanort. This saga did a lot with introducing a lot of ideas, but it seems that there's plenty of room to see them further developed in the future. Heart-based Time Travel, beings literally formed of nothing, replicas... Probably not as much Keyblade-related lore considering Xehanort's plans have exploited the diddly out of it, but there's quite a few things they can build upon. It's a bright future after all.

^ Which makes her one of the few things left fun to discuss 8D


We know from in-game that Kairis heart leaving Soras body was the cause of Namines being. You wouldn't have had Namine without Kairi. Soras role was him breaking down as this was happening which let Namine form.
Things we know yes but that's what makes Kairi central. The heart leaving Soras body while he was changing was important but its from Kairis heart this unique process affected and it's too Kairis heart Namine returned and to Kairi Namine herself considers a "shadow". (as she words it in both CoM)

Aka Kairi is central to this. Just because Namine was born from nothing doesn't mean Kairi wasn't central to the birth. How she was born about all we know of Namine and we know Kairi was key.

No it was said in game Vanitas was pure dark so unless a later game says otherwise that's what he is for now. Plus if you wanted to talk balance Ven is his light. They're not bound in the same heart anymore but they're still connected strongly to the point Soras connection to Ven also affects Vanitas.

Kairi being central to all of this is correct... but also explains why we still know diddly-squat about how Namine came to be, doesn't it?

 

[Blue Master Mage]

Recently i've come to think that Namine may have been given a body via Kairi's Princess of Heart powers. Kairi was able to give Sora a new body when he became a heartless, so I'm thinking that Kairi's heart unconsciously activated this same power when it was removed from Sora in KH1 and caused Namine to be be born with a body.

I'm also beginning to think that Kairi's ability may tie into restoring the existences of Roxas, Namine, Xion, and possibly Terra depending on his current condition.

When it comes to the issue of Vanitas...I still haven't figured out the deal with him. He's made of darkness from a heart, so on paper he should be a pureblood heartless, but obviously he's not.

Personally I think since BBS is supposed to be the origin of a lot of stuff in the series it would have been a smarter move if Nomura had written Xehanort to extract Ven's darkness and then use that darkness to create a replica, the first replica: Vanitas. And on top of that it would give us a chance to see the replica creation process and how it actually works, as well as becoming the origin of what would be the replica program in Organization XIII.

Adding to that maybe Vanitas could have been the first replica to have a human form and intelligence, while the unversed could have been failed replicas that ended up collapsing into monstrous forms, and Vanitas learned he could manipulate them like puppets. Why would Xehanort be making replicas you ask? Because he was attempting to make a new body for himself, but due to the unstable nature of replicas it was too risky to try and transplant his heart into one. Even with Vanitas, who in my version would have the ability to take in other replicas a.k.a the unversed, or Xion who can take in memories, they're unstable. So instead Xehanort would opt to just posses a person with a natural body a.k.a Terra. But's just my version of how I would have done things.

 

[LightAndOblivion]

^ Which makes her one of the few things left fun to discuss 8D


We know from in-game that Kairis heart leaving Soras body was the cause of Namines being. You wouldn't have had Namine without Kairi. Soras role was him breaking down as this was happening which let Namine form.
Things we know yes but that's what makes Kairi central. The heart leaving Soras body while he was changing was important but its from Kairis heart this unique process affected and it's too Kairis heart Namine returned and to Kairi Namine herself considers a "shadow". (as she words it in both CoM)

Aka Kairi is central to this. Just because Namine was born from nothing doesn't mean Kairi wasn't central to the birth. How she was born about all we know of Namine and we know Kairi was key.

No it was said in game Vanitas was pure dark so unless a later game says otherwise that's what he is for now. Plus if you wanted to talk balance Ven is his light. They're not bound in the same heart anymore but they're still connected strongly to the point Soras connection to Ven also affects Vanitas.

No. We know in game that Kairi and Sora's hearts leaving the body with Sora's body being that medium was what caused Namine to form. The whole "Namine wouldn't need Kairi's heart" thing was me making a joke. She's central in her creation but her heart isn't more central in her birth than Sora's involvement. I take from it that they were both equally central to Namine's creation because Kairi wouldn't even be able to leave anything behind close to a Nobody if not for Sora. Kairi's heart was leaving Sora's heart at literally the same time and if you're basing your hypothesis on Ansem's reports on her then it wouldn't help seeing how he didn't even fully know how she came to be and merely speculated.

She return to Kairi's heart yes though point is she didn't have to. That's not a good example since unlike Roxas who took from Sora his body so he needed to give it back, Namine took nothing from Kairi. Heart nor body. Her merging back to her was simply to fit the whole mold of Sora-Roxas and Kairi-Namine.

You're not understanding what I mean about Vanitas. I know he is pure darkness from Ven. I said that in my previous comment. But he's also made up of a chunk of Ven's heart. Ven's light could have been mixed in with a chunk of that heart Vanitas took without even knowing it even if it's just a glimmer.

That's what I meant. It's just speculation of course but we've been speculating about Namine being created with pieces of darkness that came from Sora's heart but got "squeezed" out and got mixed in with Namine's being. Same with pieces of light from Kairi's heart.

 

[LightAndOblivion]

Recently i've come to think that Namine may have been given a body via Kairi's Princess of Heart powers. Kairi was able to give Sora a new body when he became a heartless, so I'm thinking that Kairi's heart unconsciously activated this same power when it was removed from Sora in KH1 and caused Namine to be be born with a body.

I'm also beginning to think that Kairi's ability may tie into restoring the existences of Roxas, Namine, Xion, and possibly Terra depending on his current condition.

When it comes to the issue of Vanitas...I still haven't figured out the deal with him. He's made of darkness from a heart, so on paper he should be a pureblood heartless, but obviously he's not.

Personally I think since BBS is supposed to be the origin of a lot of stuff in the series it would have been a smarter move if Nomura had written Xehanort to extract Ven's darkness and then use that darkness to create a replica, the first replica: Vanitas. And on top of that it would give us a chance to see the replica creation process and how it actually works, as well as becoming the origin of what would be the replica program in Organization XIII.

Adding to that maybe Vanitas could have been the first replica to have a human form and intelligence, while the unversed could have been failed replicas that ended up collapsing into monstrous forms, and Vanitas learned he could manipulate them like puppets. Why would Xehanort be making replicas you ask? Because he was attempting to make a new body for himself, but due to the unstable nature of replicas it was too risky to try and transplant his heart into one. Even with Vanitas, who in my version would have the ability to take in other replicas a.k.a the unversed, or Xion who can take in memories, they're unstable. So instead Xehanort would opt to just posses a person with a natural body a.k.a Terra. But's just my version of how I would have done things.

That's a pretty cool view on Namine and honestly would probably be the explanation Nomura ever gives us on Namine. Like just say she has a body simply because Kairi is a PoH. Hell she gave one to Sora by restoring his humanity, who's to say she couldn't give one to Namine without her knowing?

Vanitas being the first Replica? Huh. I guess it would have explained Xemnas interest in later on by getting Vexen to create some for him. Maybe Xehanort attempted this at some point though he's not really a scientist..... unless he talked with Even at some point four years ago in BBS time and made him a deal to help him create a husk to experiment on and then he'd give him knowledge or something. Could explain Even's weird behavior towards Ventus.

So husk is made and Vanitas is made from it using Ven's darkness and piece of heart. Could have made more sense as a narrative than what we got in the actual game.

EDIT: Shit I didn't mean to double post. I'm typing on my phone so I had no idea that I was making another post. I meant to edit my previous post and add all this in DX

 

[Michael Mario]

Recently i've come to think that Namine may have been given a body via Kairi's Princess of Heart powers. Kairi was able to give Sora a new body when he became a heartless, so I'm thinking that Kairi's heart unconsciously activated this same power when it was removed from Sora in KH1 and caused Namine to be be born with a body.

I'm also beginning to think that Kairi's ability may tie into restoring the existences of Roxas, Namine, Xion, and possibly Terra depending on his current condition.

When it comes to the issue of Vanitas...I still haven't figured out the deal with him. He's made of darkness from a heart, so on paper he should be a pureblood heartless, but obviously he's not.

Personally I think since BBS is supposed to be the origin of a lot of stuff in the series it would have been a smarter move if Nomura had written Xehanort to extract Ven's darkness and then use that darkness to create a replica, the first replica: Vanitas. And on top of that it would give us a chance to see the replica creation process and how it actually works, as well as becoming the origin of what would be the replica program in Organization XIII.

Adding to that maybe Vanitas could have been the first replica to have a human form and intelligence, while the unversed could have been failed replicas that ended up collapsing into monstrous forms, and Vanitas learned he could manipulate them like puppets. Why would Xehanort be making replicas you ask? Because he was attempting to make a new body for himself, but due to the unstable nature of replicas it was too risky to try and transplant his heart into one. Even with Vanitas, who in my version would have the ability to take in other replicas a.k.a the unversed, or Xion who can take in memories, they're unstable. So instead Xehanort would opt to just posses a person with a natural body a.k.a Terra. But's just my version of how I would have done things.

Well, if Kairi is Sora's Key to Restore Hearts, that could certainly be one explanation as to how Namine came into existence as well as a solution to bringing Roxas and Xion back from "sleep". That being said, there really wouldn't be any difference between the Namine from pre-return to Kairi, and the Namine post-rebirth. Kairi apparently needed her to be complete... despite Nam not actually having taken anything from Kai... ri... Yeah, no idea what that was about.

Why do I get the feeling that the reason the report Vexen created titled "The Truth About Namine" was never mentioned again after its post-humorous discovery is because he went insane halfway through trying to figure it out. The other half is just the mad scrawlings of a lunatic.

Creating a Heartless requires the loss of one's heart to darkness, or its theft. Ventus's heart almost crumbled from Xehanort ripping out the darkness from it that Vanitas was made from, sure, but it wasn't lost to darkness and his body remained intact. It's not that complicated: Xehanort extracting Ventus's darkness and creating Vanitas is almost equivalent to splitting Ventus into two halves.

That being said, the next saga going revisiting the concept of Replicas in more detail wouldn't be a bad idea. You have to wonder why Xehanort never took advantage of the Replica program to make easy vessels and resorted to Time Travel of all things... Besides Nomura having a habit of making things far more convoluted than they need to be, anyway.

 

[Blue Master Mage]

Well, if Kairi is Sora's Key to Restore Hearts, that could certainly be one explanation as to how Namine came into existence as well as a solution to bringing Roxas and Xion back from "sleep". That being said, there really wouldn't be any difference between the Namine from pre-return to Kairi, and the Namine post-rebirth. Kairi apparently needed her to be complete... despite Nam not actually having taken anything from Kai... ri... Yeah, no idea what that was about.

Why do I get the feeling that the reason the report Vexen created titled "The Truth About Namine" was never mentioned again after its post-humorous discovery is because he went insane halfway through trying to figure it out. The other half is just the mad scrawlings of a lunatic.

Creating a Heartless requires the loss of one's heart to darkness, or its theft. Ventus's heart almost crumbled from Xehanort ripping out the darkness from it that Vanitas was made from, sure, but it wasn't lost to darkness and his body remained intact. It's not that complicated: Xehanort extracting Ventus's darkness and creating Vanitas is almost equivalent to splitting Ventus into two halves.

That being said, the next saga going revisiting the concept of Replicas in more detail wouldn't be a bad idea. You have to wonder why Xehanort never took advantage of the Replica program to make easy vessels and resorted to Time Travel of all things... Besides Nomura having a habit of making things far more convoluted than they need to be, anyway.

My sense is with Namine choosing to go back to Kairi may have been influenced by spending a whole year with Ansem the Wise, who we known had a hatred for nobodies for the longest time. Given that Namine is to say the least not the most self-confident person she may have convinced herself it was necessary to return to Kairi. Because when you get down to it, Namine existing separately from Kairi was not effecting Kairi at all. With Roxas and Xion you had them taking in Sora's memories which is why it was necessary to have them merge with Sora again, with Namine you never saw her existence alone effect Kairi, which is why it doesn't seem necessary for her to return to Kairi.

I understand that Vanitas' existence is different from the heartless, but my point is I don't like the concept of Vanitas' existence and even the unversed existence because even though they're different from the heartless, it's still really similar. Just coming from my own style of writing I would prefer Vanitas and the unversed to be more distinct and the replica idea I think is a good way to do it since you can tie the replica program of the organization into it.

Also, I always assumed the end goal of the replica program was to perfectly create artificial people. Xion was specifically mean't to become a complete and stable copy of Sora that Xemnas could control for his heart collection, but the larger point of the program was to act as a back up plan to form the 13 Seekers of Darkness. That's just what I assumed at least after playing KH3D. However replicas are unstable. Xion could absorb memories and her body could morph and change based on people's memories of Sora, and eventually she would morph into a Sora copy, thus due to her nature her body was unstable hence it would be too risky for Xemnas/Xehanort to try to posses such an unstable body with a heart fragment. I don't think they ever mastered replica creation, which is why I think Xemnas gave up on the program. Despite the organization's best efforts they could never create people as well as nature could, and thus normal natural bodies were what Xehanort was forced to turn into vessels...until he learned to time travel of course...ugh...

 

[Michael Mario]

My sense is with Namine choosing to go back to Kairi may have been influenced by spending a whole year with Ansem the Wise, who we known had a hatred for nobodies for the longest time. Given that Namine is to say the least not the most self-confident person she may have convinced herself it was necessary to return to Kairi. Because when you get down to it, Namine existing separately from Kairi was not effecting Kairi at all. With Roxas and Xion you had them taking in Sora's memories which is why it was necessary to have them merge with Sora again, with Namine you never saw her existence alone effect Kairi, which is why it doesn't seem necessary for her to return to Kairi.

I understand that Vanitas' existence is different from the heartless, but my point is I don't like the concept of Vanitas' existence and even the unversed existence because even though they're different from the heartless, it's still really similar. Just coming from my own style of writing I would prefer Vanitas and the unversed to be more distinct and the replica idea I think is a good way to do it since you can tie the replica program of the organization into it.

Also, I always assumed the end goal of the replica program was to perfectly create artificial people. Xion was specifically mean't to become a complete and stable copy of Sora that Xemnas could control for his heart collection, but the larger point of the program was to act as a back up plan to form the 13 Seekers of Darkness. That's just what I assumed at least after playing KH3D. However replicas are unstable. Xion could absorb memories and her body could morph and change based on people's memories of Sora, and eventually she would morph into a Sora copy, thus due to her nature her body was unstable hence it would be too risky for Xemnas/Xehanort to try to posses such an unstable body with a heart fragment. I don't think they ever mastered replica creation, which is why I think Xemnas gave up on the program. Despite the organization's best efforts they could never create people as well as nature could, and thus normal natural bodies were what Xehanort was forced to turn into vessels...until he learned to time travel of course...ugh...

That's what I figure was the case with Nam and Kairi and does fit into the former's character. That being said, for some reason Namine still turns transparent for a moment in one scene where she's holding Kairi's hand in II... That was kind of weird.

Yeah, that's probably the case; though I wouldn't be surprised if part of Xion's instability was an intentional design flaw meant to eventually drive her to absorb Roxas by force. Xehanort's kind of a sadistic prick like that.

 

[BlackOsprey]

Yeah, that's probably the case; though I wouldn't be surprised if part of Xion's instability was an intentional design flaw meant to eventually drive her to absorb Roxas by force. Xehanort's kind of a sadistic prick like that.

Ehh, Xehanort's not really a sadist... Just about everything he's done has always had a much greater purpose than "let's make someone suffer because it's fun to watch lol." It's more like a total lack of empathy for anyone who happens to be in the way of his plans and a total disregard for collateral damage.

Besides, if I'm remembering this right, it was Vexen who was in charge of the entire Replica program, which was why it was thoroughly derailed when Axel incinerated the guy. Vexen's death is likely the reason why the Replica program died with Xion as well.

 

[Michael Mario]

Ehh, Xehanort's not really a sadist... Just about everything he's done has always had a much greater purpose than "let's make someone suffer because it's fun to watch lol." It's more like a total lack of empathy for anyone who happens to be in the way of his plans and a total disregard for collateral damage.

Besides, if I'm remembering this right, it was Vexen who was in charge of the entire Replica program, which was why it was thoroughly derailed when Axel incinerated the guy. Vexen's death is likely the reason why the Replica program died with Xion as well.

Yeah, sadist was probably the wrong term. He's more of a horrifically straight-forward example of a high-functioning sociopath.

Good point. While Xemnas was heavily involved in at least Xion's creation (he's the one who secured the memories used as her base), the Replica Project was always Vexen's baby. After Xion ultimately failed to become the perfect Sora copy he desired, Xemnas probably viewed the project as a failure and decided it was too risky to create a new Organization XIII with it.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

But remember Sora's heart was also leaving just like Kairi's. If her heart was more central, then Namine would have taken it or some pieces of it but the heart went back to Kairi. With how Namine came to be, Kairi's heart may not have even really been needed if we ignored the theory we were going by since Namine didn't take anything from it.

Sora's heart leaving was solely responsible for creating Roxas, so if Kairi's heart wasn't there and leaving Sora's body Naminé simply would not have been born at all.

Ehh, Xehanort's not really a sadist... Just about everything he's done has always had a much greater purpose than "let's make someone suffer because it's fun to watch lol." It's more like a total lack of empathy for anyone who happens to be in the way of his plans and a total disregard for collateral damage.

Besides, if I'm remembering this right, it was Vexen who was in charge of the entire Replica program, which was why it was thoroughly derailed when Axel incinerated the guy. Vexen's death is likely the reason why the Replica program died with Xion as well.

I dunno about that as Xehanort has clearly shown some sadistic traits, especially in BBS and DDD.
In BBS it shows the most when he gleefully rubs in to Terra some of his more heinous actions while all the while smirking and obviously enjoying himself, the most obvious instance being shortly before the final battle when Terra asks him what he really did to Ven.
In DDD it is shown when he talks about the fates of TAV to Mickey, his expression shows that he enjoys seeing Mickey squirm and being angry as well as when Lea shows up, he picks exactly the vessel he knows would have the most negative impact on Lea and sends Isa against him while again smirking.

Figuratively stabbing someone and then twisting the knife to make it hurt more like the examples above is more than just a lack of empathy.

That one is correct, Xemnas even admits in one scene in Days that Vexen's death wasn't planned.
Had Vexen been able to go on with his research the Replica project would probably have been more refined and successful later on.

 

[Anagram]

Sora's heart leaving was solely responsible for creating Roxas, so if Kairi's heart wasn't there and leaving Sora's body Naminé simply would not have been born at all.

Thank you. Exactly this. Sora's body turning into Roxas may be Diz's hypothesis but the fact is a heart needs to leave a body thanks to darkness in some way to cause a nobody to form. Aka if Kairi's heart wasn't there to begin with Namine wouldn't have formed.

I dunno about that as Xehanort has clearly shown some sadistic traits, especially in BBS and DDD.
In BBS it shows the most when he gleefully rubs in to Terra some of his more heinous actions while all the while smirking and obviously enjoying himself, the most obvious instance being shortly before the final battle when Terra asks him what he really did to Ven.
In DDD it is shown when he talks about the fates of TAV to Mickey, his expression shows that he enjoys seeing Mickey squirm and being angry as well as when Lea shows up, he picks exactly the vessel he knows would have the most negative impact on Lea and sends Isa against him while again smirking.

Figuratively stabbing someone and then twisting the knife to make it hurt more like the examples above is more than just a lack of empathy.

That one is correct, Xemnas even admits in one scene in Days that Vexen's death wasn't planned.
Had Vexen been able to go on with his research the Replica project would probably have been more refined and successful later on.

Dont forget him literally stabbing Eraqus in the back in front of Terra. Offscreen for us slightly but Xehanort still waited till Terra wore Eraqus down to deal that blow.

 

[Michael Mario]

Thank you. Exactly this. Sora's body turning into Roxas may be Diz's hypothesis but the fact is a heart needs to leave a body thanks to darkness in some way to cause a nobody to form. Aka if Kairi's heart wasn't there to begin with Namine wouldn't have formed.


Dont forget him literally stabbing Eraqus in the back in front of Terra. Offscreen for us slightly but Xehanort still waited till Terra wore Eraqus down to deal that blow.

Xehanort kicking the dog with Terra can be justified as serving a practical purpose seeing as getting mad means getting him closer to darkness, but there no such reason for using the half of his speech that didn't involve setting the stage for his next scheme to torment Mickey with his guilt for failing to stop him from wrecking TAV's lives or Apprentice Xehanort and his off-shoots from painting the multiverse black other than sadism. Being a cold-blooded sociopath is his more prominent archetype, though; being a sadist just comes hand in hand with that.

 

[Anagram]

Xehanort kicking the dog with Terra can be justified as serving a practical purpose seeing as getting mad means getting him closer to darkness, but there no such reason for using the half of his speech that didn't involve setting the stage for his next scheme to torment Mickey with his guilt for failing to stop him from wrecking TAV's lives or Apprentice Xehanort and his off-shoots from painting the multiverse black other than sadism. Being a cold-blooded sociopath is his more prominent archetype, though; being a sadist just comes hand in hand with that.

That's semantic imo because he purposely chose a sadistic means to an end and then gloated about it more later, again for that purpose. Eraqus being the closest type of bond Xehanort is known to have had in youth.

If you wanted to argue it most everything he does or says is to a purpose but thing he does is to feed his curiosity and selfish desires which throws this into a bit of semantic territory. He does most things with a purpose but lots of the time he chooses the most drastic or heartless method. Largely due to his own detached mindset. (like how he plays off TAVs end in DDD as fate)

 

[BlackOsprey]

Eh, can you really blame Xehanort for chalking it up to fate? He probably thought that TAV were too dumb to live, given their spectacular communication breakdown...

Okay, ya got me on the examples from DDD. But other than that, every time he's done something horrible, it still had a specific purpose that went beyond "let's make this person suffer."

I guess you could call him pragmatic, although he's still got the stereotypical "grin and cackle while murdering people/destroying the universe" shtick going on. ... He IS the Big Bad Darkness Overlord of a fantasy story, though. Guess he's gotta keep up some appearances and clichés. Heck, darkness might be (what am I saying, it almost certainly is) warping his personality into enjoying the atrocities that he commits, rather than just viewing them with the detached "it was inevitable and necessary" outlook.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

That's semantic imo because he purposely chose a sadistic means to an end and then gloated about it more later, again for that purpose. Eraqus being the closest type of bond Xehanort is known to have had in youth.

If you wanted to argue it most everything he does or says is to a purpose but thing he does is to feed his curiosity and selfish desires which throws this into a bit of semantic territory. He does most things with a purpose but lots of the time he chooses the most drastic or heartless method. Largely due to his own detached mindset. (like how he plays off TAVs end in DDD as fate)

I agree, that's really more like splitting hairs.
On top of it also comes that the "purpose" for Xehanort also boils down often to "let's see what happens."

I guess you could call him pragmatic, although he's still got the stereotypical "grin and cackle while murdering people/destroying the universe" shtick going on. ... He IS the Big Bad Darkness Overlord of a fantasy story, though. Guess he's gotta keep up some appearances and clichés. Heck, darkness might be (what am I saying, it almost certainly is) warping his personality into enjoying the atrocities that he commits, rather than just viewing them with the detached "it was inevitable and necessary" outlook.

Pragmatism is either not caring/dismissing possible collateral damage/suffering of others in pursuit of one's goals or knowing about the severity but still doing it though, it is not deliberately choosing the path and actions that cause the most damage to your adversaries both emotional/mental and physical and then gloat/grin about it.
Xehanort almost always does the latter.
Riku and Naminé in Days and the KH 2 Prologue can be considered acting with pragmatism.

 

[DarkGrey Heroine]

Ah, a discussion involving Vanitas. Alright, you got me.

You guys pointed out some aspects that I thought were pretty clear to me as they were given pretty clearly in the games themselves. Vanitas, the darkness of Ven's heart, extracted, gained a form as we see him now, everything clear - or so I thought until now. The true intellectual entertainment comes indeed from taking these given informations and unraveling them, because they seem solid on their own, but are really just like chaotically twisted threads, especially in comparison with situations similar to it, but with totally different results.

So, the darkness of one's heart creates a Heartless and we generally, commonly agree that Vanitas is anything but a Heartless. What would be one of the differences - I'd look at the creation of Sora's Heartless again a bit. Sora's heart, which contained a certain amount of darkness, left his body: a Heartless was created and let's ignore the creation of the Nobodies right now. However, Vanitas was created without Ven's heart leaving his body, at least not entirely. Let's say that makes him a partial, incomplete Heartless. Sora's Heartless somehow kept Sora's identity, making it possible for Kairi to reach him and bring him back, but during that time of being a Heartless, the being itself was not conscious of what or who it was and acted according to its instincts.

"He stared at his hand. He firmly grasped with his fist. At once a large key appeared.
He swung it once. From inside his mask, Vanitas laughed.Scared.
The fleeting emotion made Vanitas close his eyes. This is a memory from Ventus’ heart. And when I feel this white fear, a tremendous power is born."

This (if we take into account the novels, of course) + the moment he responds "Yes, Master" can be taken as proof that he remembers things from before the split. We see that Vanitas also kept the identity of his origin, his initial self, but, unlike the Heartless, he acted like a human, talked, stood, remembered and reacted right from the start, which may be a consequence of this peculiar split caused by Xehanort - the Light stayed in the body and only the Darkness left, whereas Sora's heart, both Light and Darkness, left the body. Perhaps it was the consequence of this awake conscience of Vanitas - a sense of self that remained strong enough to give shape to the Darkness as a humanoid creature, capable of human actions... and interactions, in fact.

I wouldn't consider Vanitas an Unversed. I'd rather see him as a half-Heartless sort of thing, an incomplete, broken creature that, specifically because he is broken, negativity can "flow" out of him, at first without his control. These pieces of negativity, coming from a creature that is by itself incomplete/not a whole Somebody, are far too weak and void of a full conscience, memory and actual body - they WILL return to their origin each time and CAN escape again through the "cracks" of the broken being. They are literally something "unversed".

Talking about Heartless, it wouldn't be that strange to think about Vanitas as some sort of Heartless mutant/variation/experiement/surprise result, given the fact that *COUGH* Ansem Seeker of Darkness *COUGH* we already have one example of... special Heartless... thingy...

So where are we now? Did I say "we generally, commonly agree that Vanitas is anything but a Heartless" in the beginning of this reply? Ahahahahah... Well, would you look at this again~

Again, I only observe, I do not bring conclusions, of course. One idea leads you to the other, with unexpected results, sometimes opposite truths. With speculation in the fields of Kingdom Hearts, we could as well take the Assassin's Creed quote and tattoo it on our wrists as well as the forum's home page like this: "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. A-hyuck."

 

[Anagram]

I wouldn't consider Vanitas an Unversed. I'd rather see him as a half-Heartless sort of thing, an incomplete, broken creature that, specifically because he is broken, negativity can "flow" out of him, at first without his control. These pieces of negativity, coming from a creature that is by itself incomplete/not a whole Somebody, are far too weak and void of a full conscience, memory and actual body - they WILL return to their origin each time and CAN escape again through the "cracks" of the broken being. They are literally something "unversed".

A great post~ 8D

Honestly though I'd call splitting more hairs. Vanitas being an incomplete or partial heartless would technically fit the term of "unversed" which have their name because they're "unversed" as a being. Aka incomplete, partial and not fully a being of their own. In this case the actual fodder unversed are Vantias negative emotions which he further sites his split from Ventus as the cause meaning the unversed are also technically Vens negativity given shape since it was into Vantias all of Vens darkness and negativity went.

It's why Vantias was called "similar" or a "progenitor" of the unversed. He's similar but more unique because he's the original or point of creation for them. He has more to him than his unversed offspring would because he'd have too by default to form them.

Typically a progenitor of anything is a bit more special or unique and varied than the beings it spawns because it is that original existence to birth the rest.

In this case Vantias is the "unversed prime" since he's, like you said, similar but not quite a heartless. The process was different, the heart fractured, he took what appears to be everything Ven had but his light. He's like a human but "unversed" at being one since he forms an identity for himself separate from Ven or their shared original persona.
It's obvious in game also said by Nomura the unversed are similar (or as I call it cousins) to heartless due to their origins. Heartless seek hearts as a whole and are born from a whole heart. Unversed are born from one heart ripped in half and feed only on negativity.

 

[Michael Mario]

Going back to Namine, LightandOblivion brought up an interesting point earlier when she suggested negative emotions may have been involved in her creation; making her similar to an Unversed. That's not a bad idea, but Sora may have the wrong place to look for said emotions. His sacrifice was sad, but more of a positive on his end. There was someone far more central to Namine's existence than him that was definitely crushed by it, though:

Kairi.

Seems like a no brainer, right? But when you really think about it, that might be why Namine has the ability to manipulate Sora's memories and those of people connected to him. What do you think was flashing through Kairi's mind/heart when Sora sacrificed himself to free her heart, during that moment where a shadow was cast by an intersection between light and dark?

 

[Anagram]

That's a good point. Pure hearted they may be but Princesses of Heart have displayed negative emotions repeatedly which usually range mostly to things like sadness or despair and rarely things like anger.
The unique nature of the PoH are also something to always take into account. Most cry it's an easy way out but the fact is we truly dont know the extents of their powers or how events affect them in comparison to normal people.

I mean so far the only example we have of their difference is that due to lack of darkness a PoH doesn't make a heartless or normally a nobody. The body kinda just goes blank.

 

[Michael Mario]

...The more we talk about this, the more I get the idea that Nomura handwaved Namine's existence as "being adequately explained" was complete bull-hockey. The actual reason is probably that it's the one secret he doesn't want to so much as tease right now. The answer to that mystery may very well be revealed come Kingdom Hearts III considering the Princesses of Heart and Kairi herself will be coming back into focus.

But yeah: my theory is that Namine's birth was in part fueled by Kairi's feelings of despair and affection for Sora given form by the abnormal circumstances surrounding the release of Kairi's heart. Similar to Xion, memories due form part of the basis of her existence; just that they're Kairi's memories of Sora rather than vice versa and they were a catalyst for her rather than the building blocks. Namine's able to manipulate memories while Xion's appearance is, in a sense, manipulated by the memories of others... kind of. Nam's able to coexist with her Somebody with no drama while Xion's unstable nature makes her existence parasitic to those she was derived from.