[SPOILERS] Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts III

[alexis.anagram]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

One thing you seem to forget is that the more advanced technology gets the more complicated and time consuming it becomes to create the content.

Games are time consuming, but they are also budgeted and scheduled. All Nomura had to do was figure out how to balance priorities in designing the game so that essential content wouldn't be neglected or cut.

 

[Pokie]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I want Cloud to lighten the diddly up.

This. I want Cloud to regain some of his cute dorkiness that he had in the original game back. The "Lets Mosey !" Cloud.

 

[TruestSyn]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

This. I want Cloud to regain some of his cute dorkiness that he had in the original game back. The "Lets Mosey !" Cloud.

That was the Cloud that still thought he was Zack though, wasn't it? Before he found out he wasn't who he thought he was a different person.

 

[Zettaflare]

https://twitter.com/PatzPowerz/status/1084206346575085568

So Cloud's VA confirmed that he hasn't done any voicework for KH3

 

[rokudamia2]

I feel like the fans and the development team have very different views on how important the final fantasy characters are. Nomura himself has said the series didn’t need them anymore.

 

[drew0512]

I'll get over this because this game is so much more for me than FF, but I'm extremely pissed at the fact that Nomura did nothing to clarify this situation (quite the contrary with his usual "please look forward to future information"). This is either a stupid conspiracy or I don't know.

 

[TruestSyn]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Well that is just the sad thing about it these days. The more graphics improve, the less content will be made in favor for it. They need things to look amazing first. However, I would rather have KH3 have KH2 graphics if it meant we had double the content...

Lol graphics don't take up nearly as much game data as audio does. And double the content? The game is already huge in scale

 

[Pokie]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

That was the Cloud that still thought he was Zack though, wasn't it? Before he found out he wasn't who he thought he was a different person.

No. That was Cloud when he found out his true identity....

He doesn't say this in the Japanese version, I think he says something more like " Right on! Let's go, everybody !" But I'm not an expert on Japanese.

 

[TruestSyn]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

No. That was Cloud when he found out his true identity....

He doesn't say this in the Japanese version, I think he says something more like " Right on! Let's go, everybody !" But I'm not an expert on Japanese.

If that's true then it's just a localization thing, which isn't any better than head canon or fan fic lol. Artistic expression even.

 

[Ballad of Caius]

I feel like the fans and the development team have very different views on how important the final fantasy characters are. Nomura himself has said the series didn’t need them anymore.

There's a clear disconnection between devs and fans the moment Nomura said he was shocked that Dark Aqua's reveal shocked everyone. I mean, he as a writer is entitled to do whatever, but the level of disconnection seems deep.

Other than that, I personally don't care if they scrap the FF side of things, but at least some lesser cameos.

 

[TruestSyn]

There's a clear disconnection between devs and fans the moment Nomura said he was shocked that Dark Aqua's reveal shocked everyone. I mean, he as a writer is entitled to do whatever, but the level of disconnection seems deep.

Other than that, I personally don't care if they scrap the FF side of things, but at least some lesser cameos.

Uh, I think he was more surprised by the number of people who were talking about Aqua because he's very aware of the general mentality of "the side games aren't important" and "I only played 1 and 2".

 

[furusatoe]

Just spitballing here, but I wonder if Disney pushed for less FF inclusion because they see it as a damaged brand and didn't want it affecting their own?

Look, I love the FF series, and have been playing it for nearly 20 years at this point. But, from my anecdotal observation, the majority consensus seems to be that it's been mostly downhill after FFX. I know many people have given up on the series entirely over the last decade or so. Maybe SE - and, more likely, Disney - saw its inclusion as unnecessary at best, damaging at worst?

Note that I'm not trying to make excuses for their decision. I enjoy the FF content in KH, so I would have liked there to be more, too. Though the lack off FF content is not a dealbreaker for me.

 

[Recon]

Just spitballing here, but I wonder if Disney pushed for less FF inclusion because they see it as a damaged brand and didn't want it affecting their own?

Nomura's reasoning was because:

a) Many Final Fantasy crossovers already exist in the marketplace (ex: Dissidia NT, World of Final Fantasy)
b) His primary focus was to resolve all the things related to Sora and Co. and the original story line.

I think Disney had an influence, but I really don't think they were the key decision makers. Judging by the incredible detail in the worlds and characters, you can sort of assume that some things just couldn't fit within the plans of development. Changing engines was a big factor after a year. Nomura and team's goal was to make the game realistic as possible as it were to look like a Pixar movie. And I think that goal resulted in the lack of material we've seen in other games (more worlds, keyblades, etc).

Nomura was sort of right, but was surprised by fans reception questioning where the Final Fantasy characters were. In the words of other fans, this was a big "misstep" for Nomura. It's a misstep because it's a series that once started with many Final Fantasy characters that will end with very little. Besides, the role the Final Fantasy characters was just served as an arc. It's unfortunate that the arc was cut, but I understand Nomura's intentions to resolving all the mysteries pertaining to Sora and Co. because it would be weird to include Final Fantasy characters, but not have everything resolved.

 

[Pokie]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

If that's true then it's just a localization thing, which isn't any better than head canon or fan fic lol. Artistic expression even.

Though the point I was attempting to make, is that Cloud isn't really all that forlorn, there's actually an assured and positive side to him, that's actually him, and not influenced by Jenova or Zack. Japanese and English version- the only difference between the languages, is that the English makes him sound a bit more adorkable, but that's really all.

I'm tired of all this "Cloud is just always moody and dejected", when that's not true.

Kingdom Hearts has never helped that. Also, Kingdom Hearts Cloud was originally supposed to be Vincent Valentine, a character that is dejected.

I'm also tired of all this "Cloud was only happy when he thought he was Zack !", when he never truly thought that he was Zack, just had some of his memories confused with his, and he recovers becomes more positive near the end of the OG game. ( English and Japanese )

Sorry, it just really annoys me.

 

[TruestSyn]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Though the point I was attempting to make, is that Cloud isn't really all that forlorn, there's actually an assured and positive side to him, that's actually him, and not influenced by Jenova or Zack. Japanese and English version- the only difference between the languages, is that the English makes him sound a bit more adorkable, but that's really all.

I'm tired of all this "Cloud is just always moody and dejected", when that's not true.

Kingdom Hearts has never helped that. Also, Kingdom Hearts Cloud was originally supposed to be Vincent Valentine, a character that is dejected.

I'm also tired of all this "Cloud was only happy when he thought he was Zack !", when he never truly thought that he was Zack, just had some of his memories confused with his, and he recovers becomes more positive near the end of the OG game. ( English and Japanese )

Sorry, it just really annoys me.

He did think he was Zack though. All of his memories were Zack. He even thought he was SOLDIER 1st Class. He didn't go around saying "I'm Zack" or anything, but he didn't remember much of anything that wasn't Zack's memory. He was a gloomy kid when he made his promise to Tifa that he'd join SOLDIER, he was sulky and shy when he was heading to Nibelheim with Zack, and he was angry when he saw what Sephiroth did. Other than that we hadn't seen anything of Cloud before he lost his mind to Mako poisoning. Then, once he regains his composure, he is serious about saving the planet. Not just Kingdom Hearts, but Advent Children is responsible for broody Cloud images, and that really boils down to "Cloud is broody" because they want him to be that way. Zack was upbeat and happy, Cloud was reserved and quiet. He was outgoing when he had false memories, but even then he was often broody. Like the opening how he hardly says a word and acts stoic to the group for seemingly no reason. It sounds like you're taking a few parts out of context and keeping a headcanon idea of Cloud.

Vincent was dejected and he was broody sure, but his character is different from Cloud's. Vincent lost all emotion when he was killed and revived as a monster whereas Cloud was torn between two personalities.

Also, link to "it was supposed to be Vincent" because I'm pretty sure that's not true. They mixed parts of the outfits, but the grand battle of FF VII was never "Vincent vs Sephiroth" so I guarantee it was just an aesthetic choice.

 

[mriku90]

Nomura's reasoning was because:

a) Many Final Fantasy crossovers already exist in the marketplace (ex: Dissidia NT, World of Final Fantasy)
b) His primary focus was to resolve all the things related to Sora and Co. and the original story line.

I think Disney had an influence, but I really don't think they were the key decision makers. Judging by the incredible detail in the worlds and characters, you can sort of assume that some things just couldn't fit within the plans of development. Changing engines was a big factor after a year. Nomura and team's goal was to make the game realistic as possible as it were to look like a Pixar movie. And I think that goal resulted in the lack of material we've seen in other games (more worlds, keyblades, etc).

Nomura was sort of right, but was surprised by fans reception questioning where the Final Fantasy characters were. In the words of other fans, this was a big "misstep" for Nomura. It's a misstep because it's a series that once started with many Final Fantasy characters that will end with very little. Besides, the role the Final Fantasy characters was just served as an arc. It's unfortunate that the arc was cut, but I understand Nomura's intentions to resolving all the mysteries pertaining to Sora and Co. because it would be weird to include Final Fantasy characters, but not have everything resolved.

Except the series is not ending and will be continuing, Nomura has made this abundantly clear. Think of KH3 as the end of the Vegata arc of DBZ. Now we go on to the next arc and big bad.

 

[WhinyAcademic]

It’s saddening because I and II made me care about these characters. I loved that they got their home back and restored it. I loved fighting alongside them. I figured we’d get help from them again since we need all hands on deck against Xehanort (I guess with III it’s MCU phase two where “we are NOT calling the Avengers to deal with this worldwide crisis so STOP asking”). I get it, Nomura wants to involve the original characters story. But I’m glad he has noted the fans’ disappointment at the lack of FF characters, hopefully for future titles he gives them at least a bit more time.

 

[UltimaXOmega]

I will never not be salty about that Rinoa tease going to waste.

 

[rac7d]

I will never not be salty about that Rinoa tease going to waste.

Their seems to be a lot of things going to waste

 

[Pokie]

Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Sorry for being late to this !

He did think he was Zack though. All of his memories were Zack.

Cloud never had any memories of Zack. Cloud thought that he was a big top Soldier during the Nibelhiem event, and the only memories he really has is the Nibelhiem Tragedy and the promise he made with Tifa. When Cloud is asked "How did he join Solider? " Cloud has a mental breakdown, because he has no memory of that whatsoever.


Cloud
...SOLDIER, First Class?
He shakes his head.
...SOLDIER? When did I enter SOLDIER?
He clutches his head.
How did I join SOLDIER?
He falls to his knees.
Why... why can't I remember?
I'm... I'm...

He even thought he was SOLDIER 1st Class. He didn't go around saying "I'm Zack" or anything, but he didn't remember much of anything that wasn't Zack's memory.

Cloud only remembered his promise to Tifa and Nibelhiem. I also don't remember Zack being upset that Tifa got injured and bridal carried her to the side during Nibelhiem lol. Cloud has got some of his memories confused with Zack. That's all.


Still don't believe me ? Aerith. Cloud has no idea who Aerith is. None. Whatsoever. Zero. Zip. If he thought he was Zack, and/or had Zack's memories, he would for sure have memories of Aerith. Instead, Aerith is just a big stranger to him. It's even debatable if Cloud ever even had feelings for Aerith, like Zack did, but that's a whole either different debate, and let's noooooooot gooooooo theeeeere pleeeeeeeeease.

He was a gloomy kid when he made his promise to Tifa that he'd join SOLDIER

No, he wasn't. He was shy and frustrated because he was a social outcast, and got into fights. Gloomy he wasn't. Cloud was shy, frustrated and jealous of Tifa's friends.

cloud
...I know. I'm the one that was stupid.
I really wanted to play with everyone, but I was never allowed into the group.
Then later... I began to think I was different...
That I was different from those immature kids.
That then... maybe..


cloud
Tifa was in a coma for seven days.
We all thought she wouldn't make it.
If only I could've saved her...
I was so angry... Angry at myself for my weakness.
Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me...
I got out of control... I'd get into fights not even caring who it was.


He was frustrated and angry. He wanted to be stronger to protect Tifa, he wanted to be popular, he wanted to be a hero like Sephiroth. Cloud couldn't- so he just went around beating people up, venting out his jealousy and frustration on other people ''better than him '', that's not gloomy. That's more like the victim becoming the bully. Young Cloud needed to watch some Gilette ads.

he was sulky and shy when he was heading to Nibelheim with Zack,

Again, no he wasn't- he was anxious because he had a dream that he would become a successful First Class Soldier to Tifa, and would protect her, and he failed that promise. He wasn't ''sulky'', he felt like he had failed himself and Tifa. Failing an ambition, a life goal would be a good reason to show some disappointment.


Cloud
Yeah. This is... me.
I... never made it as a member of SOLDIER.
I even left my hometown telling everyone I was going to join, but...
I was so embarrassed. I didn't want to see anyone.


He was embarrassed because he felt like a failure, because he failed to get his goals, make his dream become a reality, and that's understandable. That's not being a sulk, that's just being human.

and he was angry when he saw what Sephiroth did. Other than that we hadn't seen anything of Cloud before he lost his mind to Mako poisoning.

Again, not true. We see flashbacks of young Cloud all throughout the original game, and Crisis Core exists.

Then, once he regains his composure, he is serious about saving the planet.

Well, he's more serious about killing Sephiroth......

Not just Kingdom Hearts, but Advent Children is responsible for broody Cloud images, and that really boils down to "Cloud is broody" because they want him to be that way.

I'm harsh on Kingdom Hearts Cloud because it was originally supposed to be Vincent, and instead of just removing Vincent completely, they just adsorbed Cloud into Vincent's clothes and persona. Advent Children has a better reason for Cloud's brood because it's a story of a man overcoming guilt and depression. There's also the fact that being broody and edgy, used to be cool- just look at Shadow the Hedgehog, and KH Cloud/ AC Cloud used to be massively popular- so of course, they want him to be that way. The thing is- it's not 2007 anymore.

I mean, does anybody listen to Chemical Romance anymore? Except for maybe a musical nostalgic trip one Saturday night at 2 am?

It sounds like you're taking a few parts out of context and keeping a headcanon idea of Cloud.

Lol, no I'm not. This is frustrating because that is exactly what you are doing.

Also, link to "it was supposed to be Vincent" because I'm pretty sure that's not true. They mixed parts of the outfits, but the grand battle of FF VII was never "Vincent vs Sephiroth" so I guarantee it was just an aesthetic choice.

Found this here. Cloud is leaning towards the dark side, he couldn't put Vincent in, so he just copy and pasted Vincent into Cloud, basically. It wasn't just an aesthetic choice.

Also, it's Kingdom Hearts, where Squall, Aerith and Yuffie are friends lol. A Vincent vs Sephiroth fight wouldn't be too far fetched. Epsically since, you know, Vin knew his true Mother.


Question: Also, about Cloud, isn't the left-hand side of his design modelled on FFVII's Vincent?
Nomura: Yes, his left arm is in Vincent's image. This time, in this setting, Cloud is leaning towards the dark side, and I wanted to make him a bit more demon-like. And, since Vincent was exactly that kind of design, I just added it in. Although I would have liked to put Vincent in the game too.