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[SPOILERS] Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts III



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ultima-demi

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

It's a shame. I remember how excited i was in the thought of Radiant garden returning and being better than ever.
 

Elysium

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Hey, don't you ignore the context about it being funny. KH was charming to me because of the marriage of FF and Disney so of course I'm sad that we don't get any of them, but they DO have a lot of original characters we may see permanently removed from the series that can make room for more FF characters.

I don't think the FF characters being absent has anything to do with the original characters being present. At this point, I'll be glad to see most of these original characters gone if they're really that much of a drain on Nomura and co's creativity. I'm not going to argue character by character because, like I said, you can do the exact same thing for every Disney character that appears in any of the games. The vast majority provide nothing substantial to the overarching plot in KH2 anymore than the FF characters did--which is why KH2 sucks. Unlike others, I didn't expect or want this game to be anything like KH2 other than carrying over the same staples it carried over from KH1 itself (command menu, SDG the main party, coliseum or arena, the FF crew in the hub world, etc.).
 
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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

In addition to the lack ofrestoration committee what about the Cloud and Sephiroth subplot? Hell, it was actually developed in BBS with the introduction of Zack and his abduction by Sephiroth. I'm hoping that gets some sort of pay off in the next game
I too am hopeful that KH3 will neglect to provide closure on this series so that some game that has neither been announced nor entered development and which I have zero intention of playing can clean up its mess.

Just a reminder that KH3 won't be everything we wanted it to be.
Things like Radiant Garden returning along with the FF crew hardly seem like tall orders. It's inexplicable to me that Nomura apparently felt bringing Pixar into the KH series was a higher priority than following up on the emotional throughlines that have carried every main game and many of the bridge titles. If people can't understand how or don't want to accept that this weakens KH3 as an entry, that's their problem.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I too am hopeful that KH3 will neglect to provide closure on this series so that some game that has neither been announced nor entered development and which I have zero intention of playing can clean up its mess.


Things like Radiant Garden returning along with the FF crew hardly seem like tall orders. It's inexplicable to me that Nomura apparently felt bringing Pixar into the KH series was a higher priority than following up on the emotional throughlines that have carried every main game and many of the bridge titles. If people can't understand how or don't want to accept that this weakens KH3 as an entry, that's their problem.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't get why it would weaken KH3 to not include characters who would be a waste of resources if they hardly do anything in the first place? As I outlined earlier, very few of the FF characters were actually relevant to the overall plot and were just kind of there. And even then if we interpret some of what we saw in previous titles (Squall's letter, Cloud and Sephiroth teleporting away, Tifa following after them) then we can assume they are all busy with their own thing and may not be available to get wrapped up in another Sora scheme. Sure, I don't like that they didn't include as many if any FF characters, but it doesn't make the game weaker if they are wanting to let it stand on its own two legs as a franchise or even as a Disney game. Yes, it's been said twice now that the Disney characters are useless too, but the bulk of worlds are Disney worlds. It's a Disney IP at this point. I'm sure it won't be the last we'll ever see of FF in KH I'm sure, but if they're just gonna be there to say "Hey, Sora we're friends remember" and that's it, then I'd rather not have them at all.
 

Sakuraba Neku

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Things like Radiant Garden returning along with the FF crew hardly seem like tall orders. It's inexplicable to me that Nomura apparently felt bringing Pixar into the KH series was a higher priority than following up on the emotional throughlines that have carried every main game and many of the bridge titles. If people can't understand how or don't want to accept that this weakens KH3 as an entry, that's their problem.
Nomura definitely doesn't seem to understand how important the FF cast is for some people, now that KH is popular enough to stand on its own.

I'm not sure if it's actually deeper than that and he's still angry because of what happened with FFXV and thus the constants references to Noctis in KH3, while ignoring the rest of FF characters. Because let's be honest, even if Radiant Garden isn't playable, Leon and the rest could still interact with Sora through the Gummiphone like Ienzo is doing.

There's also Twilight Town which is playable, but Seifer and his gang is nowhere to be seen and probably won't event be mentioned by the Twilight Town trio.

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 
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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't get why it would weaken KH3 to not include characters who would be a waste of resources if they hardly do anything in the first place? As I outlined earlier, very few of the FF characters were actually relevant to the overall plot and were just kind of there. And even then if we interpret some of what we saw in previous titles (Squall's letter, Cloud and Sephiroth teleporting away, Tifa following after them) then we can assume they are all busy with their own thing and may not be available to get wrapped up in another Sora scheme. Sure, I don't like that they didn't include as many if any FF characters, but it doesn't make the game weaker if they are wanting to let it stand on its own two legs as a franchise or even as a Disney game. Yes, it's been said twice now that the Disney characters are useless too, but the bulk of worlds are Disney worlds. It's a Disney IP at this point. I'm sure it won't be the last we'll ever see of FF in KH I'm sure, but if they're just gonna be there to say "Hey, Sora we're friends remember" and that's it, then I'd rather not have them at all.
Pretty sure I said this in another thread, but:

Radiant Garden is the original residence of both Kairi and Lea, and the wizard Merlin who's supposed to be training them. As well as Ansem the Wise, Isa and all of the apprentices. That means approximately half of these original villains (and multiple primary and secondary protagonists) Nomura is so keen to develop at the expense of the staple Final Fantasy characters are from the same world as those FF characters. Gee, I wonder how he could possibly connect the dots and make the plot work!

Leon, Yuffie, Aerith and Cid were all participants in formative moments for Sora as a character-- they were the first people he met and they gave him refuge when he lost his home, and it was Leon Sora looked to for guidance when considering whether to embark on a journey with Donald and Goofy. They were present as integral parts of his memory in CoM, and in KH2 they help the gang to solve the mystery of the DtD and uncover information pertaining to Ansem. Sora fought alongside all of them in the climactic mid-game battle and they have been a constant beacon of support for him throughout his journeys. The FF gang represents his home away from home. If your argument is that Nomura couldn't have imagined a scenario where that might come in handy during the climax of the entire series thus far, when Sora is up against the gravest threat he's ever encountered, you might as well just admit that he's a hack.

Radiant Garden is a constant point of intersection for the three main characters in Birth By Sleep. It's where Aqua fights Terranort. It's where Lea, Isa and Ven met. It's where Xehanort-in-Terra's-body spent the better part of ten years scheming and/or doing research. As Hollow Bastion, it served as a home for Riku while he worked with Maleficent to awaken his darkness. It's the origin point for a great deal of the drama in the series, and thus a significant part of the foundation for the narrative so far. From the connections to the conflicts between characters, Radiant Garden has been the backdrop, the anchor, and the destination through three main entries.

It's not a minor oversight that it's missing from this title: it's a gaping flaw in the way in which the narrative has been configured. It speaks to a lack of comprehension as to the emotional pretext for this entire game, and while it might not bother everyone, there's no justification for minimizing it through dismissive remarks like, "We can't have everything." That's not the argument.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Spoiler Spoiler Show

Spoiler Spoiler Show
 

ZJGamer

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I think most people would have been happy if we had gotten even a small scenario with Leon and Radiant Castle (I'm calling it that for this scenario since only the castle will be playable in what I'm about to describe.)

Radiant Castle Scenario:

Sora, Donald, and Goofy have just completed the first section of worlds which includes Twilight Town, Olympus, Toy Box, and Kingdom of Corona. They receive a call on the Gummi-Phone from Chip and Dale with coordinates to a world they are "very familiar" with. Our trio head off to this world and land in Castle Gate area of Radiant Castle (Basically a larger version of the Castle Postern area from KH2, but with a gate this time blocking access to the town). A group of Heartless, Nobodies, and Unversed appear and we have to defeat them. Leon jumps in to finish off the horde of enemies and Sora is glad to see his old friend.

Leon explains it was Merlin who contacted Chip and Dale about sending Sora to Radiant Castle. Merlin took Pooh's storybook for safekeeping when he went to train Lea and Kairi, but while traveling between worlds he was attacked by one of the Seekers of Darkness. Merlin escaped with the book, but some of the pages were lost and have ended up scattered across other worlds. Sora gives a snarky remark about how finding the pages shouldn't be a problem since they have already done it twice before. Sora asks about Yuffie and the others, and Leon says that they are busy rebuilding the town.

He then says that they're is someone else here that would like to speak to Sora and they all head to Ansem's study. There Sora meets Ienzo and Alaeus and basically Ienzo catches Sora up on who they are and their past with the Organization and Ansem the Wise. Sora being Sora decides to give the pair a second chance even though they were once on the side of the enemy, with Ienzo also bringing up his plan to bring back Roxas. Ienzo believes there may be a clue to Xehanort's plans inside the chamber of repose in the castle basement, though it's sealed off and inaccessible. Ienzo asks Sora to use his Keyblade to unlock the chamber. So Sora, Donald, and Goofy head down to the Heartless factory and find Experiment 626 battling another group of enemies. After defeating the enemies, they all head down to the basement and find the chamber has already been unlocked. They head inside and find Terra-Xehanort retrieving Aqua's armor.

Experiment 626 recognizes him, but senses something is wrong about Terra. Terra-Xehanort doesn't stay along and vanishes in a corridor of darkness. Sora promises Experiment 626 they will save Terra and this is where Experiment 626 becomes available as a summon/link. Sora explains to Ienzo what happened in the chamber of repose, meanwhile Ienzo has modified the Gummi-Phone so they can communicate with him directly. Pooh's storybook is kept in Ansem's study and Leon tells Sora to not worry about the town, that the restoration committee can handle things there. He tells Sora to just focus on defeating Xehanort and make him pay for everything he's done to people of this world. And with that Sora, Donald, and Goofy depart to continue their journey.

So here we have a scenario for Radiant Castle that allows the world to be small in terms of scale and resources, but I feel would also have satisfied a lot of people's desire for the Final Fantasy aspect of Kingdom Hearts III.

Of course there is still the Sephiroth and Cloud subplot, but I'm still trying to think of a good scenario that wouldn't have required a ton of resources or development time, and yet would conclude that story in a satisfying way.
 

TruestSyn

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Pretty sure I said this in another thread, but:

Radiant Garden is the original residence of both Kairi and Lea, and the wizard Merlin who's supposed to be training them. As well as Ansem the Wise, Isa and all of the apprentices. That means approximately half of these original villains (and multiple primary and secondary protagonists) Nomura is so keen to develop at the expense of the staple Final Fantasy characters are from the same world as those FF characters. Gee, I wonder how he could possibly connect the dots and make the plot work!

Leon, Yuffie, Aerith and Cid were all participants in formative moments for Sora as a character-- they were the first people he met and they gave him refuge when he lost his home, and it was Leon Sora looked to for guidance when considering whether to embark on a journey with Donald and Goofy. They were present as integral parts of his memory in CoM, and in KH2 they help the gang to solve the mystery of the DtD and uncover information pertaining to Ansem. Sora fought alongside all of them in the climactic mid-game battle and they have been a constant beacon of support for him throughout his journeys. The FF gang represents his home away from home. If your argument is that Nomura couldn't have imagined a scenario where that might come in handy during the climax of the entire series thus far, when Sora is up against the gravest threat he's ever encountered, you might as well just admit that he's a hack.

Radiant Garden is a constant point of intersection for the three main characters in Birth By Sleep. It's where Aqua fights Terranort. It's where Lea, Isa and Ven met. It's where Xehanort-in-Terra's-body spent the better part of ten years scheming and/or doing research. As Hollow Bastion, it served as a home for Riku while he worked with Maleficent to awaken his darkness. It's the origin point for a great deal of the drama in the series, and thus a significant part of the foundation for the narrative so far. From the connections to the conflicts between characters, Radiant Garden has been the backdrop, the anchor, and the destination through three main entries.

It's not a minor oversight that it's missing from this title: it's a gaping flaw in the way in which the narrative has been configured. It speaks to a lack of comprehension as to the emotional pretext for this entire game, and while it might not bother everyone, there's no justification for minimizing it through dismissive remarks like, "We can't have everything." That's not the argument.

Not sure I'd read that in another thread or not. When you break it down that way, yeah it does give it more negative light that they aren't included, but my argument isn't we can't have everything. I understand why he wouldn't include them for the narrative, but maybe we'll see more of them in Final Mix or even the next title. I'm sure he probably didn't want to bog down the story with more plots/sub plots involving the FF characters rebuilding as opposed to doing it to keep there from being too many characters. Nomura is no fool, I'm sure he's aware people are upset by it.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Man,people will hate me for this but I think that Radiant Garden history arc already closed on KH2 with the Restoration of the World, only the Cloud conflit between his dark and light side (Sephiroth and Tipha) was left but is not that important .

(And sorry for some gramatical error, I not common to English) .
 
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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Radiant Castle Scenario:
There are some good aspects of this idea, such as how Stitch was tied into the storyline, but I wouldn't want Leon to show up as a mere cameo. That's exactly the kind of integration I wouldn't want to see in KH3, and Radiant Garden on the whole is important enough to warrant at least as much attention and resources as Twilight Town; I would argue that it deserved far more given the sheer centrality of it to the story arcs of so many characters. At this point, KH3 is going to have to go out of its way to explain and work around problems like why the Restoration Committee isn't working with Ienzo (and possibly AtW) to help Sora. Or why Lea and Isa are meeting at the Twilight Town clock tower, a place that holds no meaning whatsoever for Isa as a character. Or how, indeed, Aqua will regain her armor if she doesn't get it from the Chamber of Repose under Ansem the Wise's lab. It's not just that the absence of Radiant Garden is a bummer, it actually degrades the continuity and emotional logic of this entry within the context of the whole series.

Speaking of Stitch, how nice is it that KH3 gets neither Destiny Islands or Hawai'i. Used to be the general, accepted consensus that we would only get one, and we all made peace with it, but hey. I guess we really can't have everything!

Not sure I'd read that in another thread or not. When you break it down that way, yeah it does give it more negative light that they aren't included, but my argument isn't we can't have everything. I understand why he wouldn't include them for the narrative, but maybe we'll see more of them in Final Mix or even the next title. I'm sure he probably didn't want to bog down the story with more plots/sub plots involving the FF characters rebuilding as opposed to doing it to keep there from being too many characters. Nomura is no fool, I'm sure he's aware people are upset by it.
KH3 isn't even out yet, trying to justify its errors in composition on the imagined merits of the next Kingdom Hearts game is not persuasive.

I haven't seen any suggestions for an FF-specific subplot in Radiant Garden to distract from the main overarching story, that's your inference and yours alone. On the contrary, the world of Radiant Garden has a higher degree of relevance going beyond the FF characters because of the decisions Nomura made in terms of the narrative between KH2 and KH3. Like I said: if it's about "original characters" and prioritizing their arcs, cutting out Radiant Garden is totally counterproductive.

Man,people will hate me for this but I think that Radiant Garden history arc already closed on KH2 with the Restoration of the World, only the Cloud conflit between his dark and light side (Sephiroth and Tipha) was left but is not that important .
I'm curious to know, then, how you justify Nomura's decision to bring it back in Birth by Sleep for the distinctive purpose of establishing it as the home world of 50% of the Organization's members and ensuring that Terra, Aqua and Ven all have links to the world.

One could argue that every arc was closed in KH2. Nomura decided to make more games reopening them. That's where the criticism around this choice stems from, for me.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Man,people will hate me for this but I think that Radiant Garden history arc already closed on KH2 with the Restoration of the World, only the Cloud conflit between his dark and light side (Sephiroth and Tipha) was left but is not that important .

(And sorry for some gramatical error, I not common to English) .

There doesn’t need to be some arc for them to be in the game at all. They’re Sora’s main friends in the main line titles. They should be in the game even if just in cut scenes.
 

Oracle Spockanort

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Man,people will hate me for this but I think that Radiant Garden history arc already closed on KH2 with the Restoration of the World, only the Cloud conflit between his dark and light side (Sephiroth and Tipha) was left but is not that important .

(And sorry for some gramatical error, I not common to English) .

No, no hate.

Personally I felt like BBS had set Radiant Garden up to have more potential deep story importance. The fact that it was where the whole Organization got its start and the fact that the world was called the Capital of Light in the KH universe always felt like there was more to come from it. The fact that we were to see it in multiple cutscenes in KH3 also made it seem like a likely contender to return.

The cast themselves could have always had new purposes that suited the story of the game.

Despite the Restoration Committee being absent and RG not being a visitable world in KH3, I do think the future KH title that follows after KH3 will bring back RG and the Restoration Committee’s importance to the overall plot of the series.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Oh I just remembered Rinoa's letter to Leon. Shame we won't get to see those two reuniting
There are some good aspects of this idea, such as how Stitch was tied into the storyline, but I wouldn't want Leon to show up as a mere cameo. That's exactly the kind of integration I wouldn't want to see in KH3, and Radiant Garden on the whole is important enough to warrant at least as much attention and resources as Twilight Town; I would argue that it deserved far more given the sheer centrality of it to the story arcs of so many characters. At this point, KH3 is going to have to go out of its way to explain and work around problems like why the Restoration Committee isn't working with Ienzo (and possibly AtW) to help Sora. Or why Lea and Isa are meeting at the Twilight Town clock tower, a place that holds no meaning whatsoever for Isa as a character. Or how, indeed, Aqua will regain her armor if she doesn't get it from the Chamber of Repose under Ansem the Wise's lab. It's not just that the absence of Radiant Garden is a bummer, it actually degrades the continuity and emotional logic of this entry within the context of the whole series.

Speaking of Stitch, how nice is it that KH3 gets neither Destiny Islands or Hawai'i. Used to be the general, accepted consensus that we would only get one, and we all made peace with it, but hey. I guess we really can't have everything!


KH3 isn't even out yet, trying to justify its errors in composition on the imagined merits of the next Kingdom Hearts game is not persuasive.

I haven't seen any suggestions for an FF-specific subplot in Radiant Garden to distract from the main overarching story, that's your inference and yours alone. On the contrary, the world of Radiant Garden has a higher degree of relevance going beyond the FF characters because of the decisions Nomura made in terms of the narrative between KH2 and KH3. Like I said: if it's about "original characters" and prioritizing their arcs, cutting out Radiant Garden is totally counterproductive.


I'm curious to know, then, how you justify Nomura's decision to bring it back in Birth by Sleep for the distinctive purpose of establishing it as the home world of 50% of the Organization's members and ensuring that Terra, Aqua and Ven all have links to the world.

One could argue that every arc was closed in KH2. Nomura decided to make more games reopening them. That's where the criticism around this choice stems from, for me.

Funny how you mentioned Hawaii. That would have been the perfect world for both Vexen and Demyx. It had both science elements for Vexen and a tropical water themed setting for Demyx. Plus they sort of paralled Jumba and Pleakly
 
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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

Despite the Restoration Committee being absent and RG not being a visitable world in KH3, I do think the future KH title that follows after KH3 will bring back RG and the Restoration Committee’s importance to the overall plot of the series.
I really, really wish KH3 was the last game in this series.

Funny how you mentioned Hawaii. That would have been the perfect world for both Vexen and Demyx. It had both science elements for Vexen and a tropical water themed setting for Demyx. Plus they sort of paralled Jumba and Pleakly
I don't know if you heard, Swoosh, but this game won't be everything you wanted it to be. You have to stop having such high expectations. And ideas. And hopes. As a fan, I don't know why you bothered developing an interest in this series at all. Being interested will just lead to disappointment. You should really just be happy the game is coming out and go spend money on it and thank Nomura every day that he did this, and that it happened.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

It's kinda amusing to read people saying "he can't put everything in one game, you can't solve all conflicts in the same game" when Nomura was the one who made this mess in the first place. By putting character from Re:Com and BBS into a perfectly standalone timeline where no one would have ever guessed them and by basically making every character available by adding time travel while trying to connect everyone and everything in some way, no matter how ridiculous (e.g. freshly born Naminé meeting Terra), he even added a tremendous load of stuff to be resolved for himself, so it's no wonder that people are expecting him to give conclusion to all of this. If he wouldn't have added time travel / resurrection in DDD and introduced the possibility of getting back all the characters in some way, he wouldn't have to include this much now and the games themselves would've worker better in terms of being standalone. Saying he couldn't include these characters / this particular world because there was already so much on his plate seems quite weak to me. I always loved the world a lot, that one and Twilight Town are my favorite worlds and like it was already said, quite a lot of people come from there and so much stuff is connected to that world. That was the one world I took for granted so if it really isn't there, it would leave me quite disappointed.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

@ZJGamer: Your idea would have been good enough for me, especially since it puts a cap on a lot of scenes from the 1,000 Heartless battle (Stitch's appearance there, Ienzo and Xigbar's convo crossed with Xemnas walking down into the chamber just before the Demyx battle). I wouldn't even have cared if Radiant Garden was as small as Atlantica was in KH2 as long as the characters were there. The fact that 100 Acre Wood would've been a huge world tacked onto it would've softened the blow. Sort of the way Mysterious Tower is connected to TT in KH2, so that you get a short interlude with Yensid without it being a full-fledged world of its own.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I mean, it's unfortunate that they won't be included, but that doesn't ruin the game at all for me. I pretty much knew the score once Nomura was saying that KH can stand on its own and doesn't need FF characters anymore. I'm still optimistic about the game, and I still think that I'll love what it has to offer come January 29th.
 

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Re: [BLANK] are not in Kingdom Hearts 3 at all

I really, really wish KH3 was the last game in this series.


I don't know if you heard, Swoosh, but this game won't be everything you wanted it to be. You have to stop having such high expectations. And ideas. And hopes. As a fan, I don't know why you bothered developing an interest in this series at all. Being interested will just lead to disappointment. You should really just be happy the game is coming out and go spend money on it and thank Nomura every day that he did this, and that it happened.

At this point I've noticed that you seem to hate the idea that anyone can be okay with imperfection at this point. As if there's a baseline quality that we should all fight for, and that anything less should be treated as garbage. That we aren't allowed to "be okay" with omissions in KH3.

I'm sorry to say that the real world no longer works on a quality engine. We live in an age where the written word itself is no longer how people write. Text language, emojis, and such have overwritten that. The internet has completely destroyed the idea of buying books to read. The only entertainment that survives nowadays are those that are flashy, have little thought required to understand it, or are attempts at being funny.

After all, the biggest media franchise currently is the MCU, and you yourself have expressed your distaste with how that is written. But the audience absorbs it and eats it up. The general public isn't after Oscar nominated performances and amazingly written scripts. They just want something to remove them from the real world in any way possible. No matter how shallow that is. I mean, the Transformers movies were all considered hot trash and still managed to get billions of dollars. And kept doing it.

I do like that you are a person of quality. We just live in a world that doesn't care anymore. And I've given up on that dream myself. I just settle for lower now, and find enjoyment by lowering my expectations for everything. After all, the only thing I want from a story is for it to not be the crappy real world right now. .n.

So yes, I'll still enjoy and be okay with whatever isn't in KH3. And if you really thought KH3 was going to be the literal last game you were kidding yourself. Disney has now put their foot in, so they will definitely milk it as much as possible. KH4 is guaranteed, even if they drop the numerical titles after 3.
 
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