mind/soul, BBS Spolers

[Lindaxe]

Question about Birth By Sleep. At the end, immediately after MX takes over Terra's body, Terra's armor forms together to fight him. Terranort then says something along the lines of, "Your body and heart submit. Why does your mind resist?"

I was under the impression there were three parts of a person, as stated in various reports and by Nomura himself; the Body, Heart, and Soul. Is the mind the same thing as the soul? Maybe that's why ASoD and Xemnas never exhibited much of Terra's character, because Terra's soul was left in Lingering Sentiment.

Or maybe the mind is a smaller, fourth element of the body. Like emotions and stuff. In which case, where is Terra's soul? His body is under control of Xehanort, his heart is hidden away in darkness, his 'mind' is in Lingering Sentiment, but his soul? I have no clue.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

First off, the soul and the body cannot be separated, because the soul leaving the body means death!!!

Heart, body and soul are the main parts which make up a full existence in the KH-universe, but there exist also secondary parts like memories, consciousness and also the mind (dreams are rumored to be also one of these).

There is still much mystery about this, but Terra's Lingering Will is said to be animated by his thoughts (thoughts => part of the mind) and not by his soul.
Terra's soul is in his body, commandeered by Master Xehanort, and later it is with Xemnas, because as said before, if Terra's body would lose its soul => death.

 

[Lindaxe]

Oh yeah. The whole 'soul leaving is death' thing. I'd forgotten about that XD

I was about to make an observation that in KH 1 we were introduced to Heartless, the by products of a soul leaving a heart. (Heart aspect)
In Kh2, we were introduced to nobodies, the remains of a strong willed person when they become a heartless. (body aspect)
I was thinking maybe in KH3 Nomura'd introduce a new type of being, like what happens when someone's soul leaves. But I suppose that can't happen because when a soul leaves, they'd die XD I suppose they could still do it though. Didn't Nomura say that there is no "Death" In kingdom hearts? Maybe it would just produce a ghost like thing. Idk haha

another question. Whats the difference between the heart and the soul? They seem to be almost the same thing.

 

[Virus]

We're not having this discussion again. It started way back when everyone was talking about "Dis-souls". Next we'll have Un-minds and Non-arms.

Heartless come from the heart, Nobodies are the soul and body. Ansem mentions it in his report. The soul doesn't leave because that means death, a previously stated above.

In reference to your last question, the soul is what gives a being life, the heart gives the being emotions, or maybe even a purpose. Nomura stated that there is no "death" in the KH series, just people lost in the Realm of Darkness who are waiting for their "Birth By Sleep". I could pull up the interview if you want.

 

[Lindaxe]

so when people die they go to the Realm of Darkness?

 

[Virus]

so when people die they go to the Realm of Darkness?

No one in the KH series has died, really. It's a Disney game, remember that. When they lose their heart (the game's version of "dying") the heart becomes a Heartless, the discarded body and soul become a Nobody, and the actual being goes to the Realm of Darkness to await return.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

The difference between heart and soul is that the soul holds the life-energy itself and literally gives (physical) life.
We don't know as of yet if the soul has any other capabilities, traits or abilities beyond that.
Hearts are the actual "true essence" of a whole person, where their "core-being" is situated and where emotions can be produced and memories be stored.
Nobodies have as their "essence" only the mind, thoughts and their own memories to form an identity and consciousness with, but no "core-being" and are therefore said to "do not truly exist".

As for the "no death!"-bit that is contradicted by Ansem the Wise in the games themselves, as when body and soul are separated there's indeed "death"...the people lost in the RoD refer to people who dissappeared in an other way, like Aqua, or Naminé and Roxas.
That's also why the statement "they should stay dead" is false to the max because none of them really died...

EDIT:
@Virus:
Exactly that is the point:
Losing your heart =/= dying.
Losing the heart is not death...losing the soul is.

 

[Lindaxe]

so feelings and emotions are attached to the heart, whearas the personality and actual character are attached to the soul, correct?

also. If the body and soul stay together, then how were sora and roxas and namine able to exist at the same time? They all shared one body and soul, as detailed in the Secret Ansem Reports. Namine was made from Kairi's heart, and sora's body and soul. Roxas was made of Ven's heart, and Sora's body and soul. And then Sora came back.

Technically Sora and Roxas should be the same person. When all the other nobodies became nobodies, they stayed the same person they were before losing their heart. Axel was still Lea. So how come Roxas and Namine aren't Sora? Especially Roxas?

 

[Virus]

so feelings and emotions are attached to the heart, whearas the personality and actual character are attached to the soul, correct?

Not exactly. Feelings and emotions are attached to the heart yes, but the soul's only purpose (that we know of) is to give the being life.

also. If the body and soul stay together, then how were sora and roxas and namine able to exist at the same time? They all shared one body and soul, as detailed in the Secret Ansem Reports. Namine was made from Kairi's heart, and sora's body and soul. Roxas was made of Ven's heart, and Sora's body and soul. And then Sora came back.

Technically Sora and Roxas should be the same person. When all the other nobodies became nobodies, they stayed the same person they were before losing their heart. Axel was still Lea. So how come Roxas and Namine aren't Sora? Especially Roxas?

Allow me to quote myself from another thread:

Don't get too caught up in the logistics of it. It's a fictional game meant to be fun, not to make sense.

 

[Sephiroth0812]

We don't know where the actual consciousness, personality and "character" are stored, but the heart has also a saying in this, as i.e. when Ventus pleaded with Sora to let him stay inside his heart it was Ven's injured heart speaking, his body and soul are both stored in the chamber of Waking.

Sora and Roxas co-existing as well as Kairi and Naminé is a huuge exception, and most likely stems from Kairi's powers as a princess of heart.
Sora was literally a walking heart with a physical form, while his body/vessel and soul where occupied by Roxas. Naminé has literally nothing, because she was born from Kairi's heart using Sora's body and soul (whose are with Roxas) and therefore Naminé is the "biggest" mystery in KH, lol.


Virus, that quote is golden, lol.
Many parts of the fandom (me included, won't deny that ^__^) are way too overanalyzing all the stuff.
Hey, it's fantasy.

 

[Lindaxe]

Yeah I know I shouldn't overanalyze but to me, if it doesn't make sense, it looses some of the fun factor. I have a hard time enjoying something if I don't understand it.

So basically, no one really knows the specifics of Namine and she's a big "I have no clue" moment.

And sora stopped being a walking heart when roxas merged with him?

 

[KeckII]

In Kh2, we were introduced to nobodies, the remains of a strong willed person when they become a heartless. (body aspect)
I was thinking maybe in KH3 Nomura'd introduce a new type of being, like what happens when someone's soul leaves. But I suppose that can't happen because when a soul leaves, they'd die XD I suppose they could still do it though.

Yes, if he makes zombies as enemies in KH xD

 

[Virus]

Yeah I know I shouldn't overanalyze but to me, if it doesn't make sense, it looses some of the fun factor. I have a hard time enjoying something if I don't understand it.

So basically, no one really knows the specifics of Namine and she's a big "I have no clue" moment.

And sora stopped being a walking heart when roxas merged with him?

Namine, we don't know. She's Kairi's Nobody but Kairi can never be a Heartless so she's just...there.

And Sora wasn't literally a walking heart. I can't really explain it, but here's the REAL answer:

KH1 was made before KH2. KH1 was written without the writers knowing anything about what was going to happen in KH2. They didn't know Roxas would be Sora's Nobody. In a nutshell, it's a Plot Hole. Remember when Namine tells Roxas he was never meant to exist?

 

[Lindaxe]

KH1 was made before KH2. KH1 was written without the writers knowing anything about what was going to happen in KH2. They didn't know Roxas would be Sora's Nobody. In a nutshell, it's a Plot Hole. Remember when Namine tells Roxas he was never meant to exist?

eh I think they knew enough to fix that. Remember, the secret ending was Roxas asking Riku where Sora is. "Another side, another Story".

 

[blueheart]

^ KH2 did make sense somewhat. The real retconning didn't start until Days.

And BBS a little bit

 

[Memory Master]

Body, Soul, and Heart are the main parts. Body is the vessel that contains the heart and soul. The soul is like a battery for the body (Any other purpose it serves has yet to be seen) and the Heart is what makes a person who they are. It's their personality, emotions, memories, ect.

The mind has been brought up a lot in the series but it's unknown if the mind is part of the heart or the soul or whatever. I tend to lean that it may be a part of the soul but we can't say anything solid regarding the mind as of yet.

 

[chasespicer056]

^ basically this

The biggest issue is the conflicting examples of WHICH part the mind belongs to:

*Ven's mind is essentially shattered after his heart is damaged, which implies the mind is part of the heart.

*Upon seeing the Lingering Sentiment, Xehanort exclaims: "Your body submits, your heart succumbs... so why does your MIND resist?!" & considering he only mentioned two of the three elements of a complete being, it almost implies the soul is part of the mind.

Again though, these events are mostly left to interpretation for now.