Lying

[Forever Atlas]

Well, first, I'd like to say... a few people say that its human nature to lie. Its not human nature to lie. It might be the inclination to avoid something with untruths, but its not nature. We are more inclined to hide things, but it doesnt mean it is in us to lie.

As the little wiki puts it... human nature is the set of logical characteristics, including ways of thinking, feeling and acting, that all normal human beings have in common.

Another source says it is: The basic makeup or constitution of something. It can refer to what a person is by birth, also to hereditary qualities along with general practice. At times it refers to the physical urges of an organism.

So I personally wouldnt say it is human NATURE to lie. However it is a route that many take because of our tendency to want to avoid certain things that may cause hurt distress or bring consequences for actions.

All sins are not equal? For this I request biblical proof.

However, let's go your way. So you admit that:

Situation A:

"Today was a shitty day, but I won't tell my mom 'cause it'll make her sad"

... is just as sinful as:

Situation B:

Woman plans to have romantic dinner with her girlfriend.

... exactly as sinful as:

Situation C:

Planned sex between guys.

Situation D:

German lies to Nazis about the Jews in his attic to save them.

Situations A, B, C and D each involve planning to commit a sin.


On the flip side, are you saying spontaneous gay sex is ok, or as ok as a spur-of-the-moment lie?

I think maybe you should just change the thread name from lying to sinning maybe =/

Anyway... Now let me answer it in this way. First I'll focus on the lying part..... You brought out many scriptures that yes shows that lying is a sin.

However, you speak of what if for example a German lies to Nazis about the Jews in his attic to save them.

Its interesting you bring that up. Look at the Bible account of Rahab shown in the book of Joshua. She hid and did in effect lie to the men who came up to her residence to keep safe the spies from Israel. (Joshua ch. 2)

In this case she took a risk in order to protect his servants, giving evidence of her faith. She was counted righteous in God's eyes in the Bible. Not only did she lie at that time but she used to be a prostitute. So if a person changes their ways they can be counted righteous in God's eyes.

While malicious lying is wrong in God's eyes, a person is not obligated to give up information to people who are not entitled to it.

Even Jesus Christ did not give full details or direct answers when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm. Many times he just kept silent. Or he went away into private.

So again as I said before, it does to an extent depend on the situation we are in. The situation Rahab was in was helping spies from Israel to complete a task given from God.

Excerpt from Insight on the Scriptures on the topic of "Lie":

....God cannot lie (Nu 23:19; Heb 6:13-18), and he hates “a false tongue.” (Pr 6:16-19) His law to the Israelites required compensation for injuries resulting from deception or malicious lying. (Le 6:2-7; 19:11,*12) And a person presenting false testimony was to receive the punishment that he desired to inflict upon another by means of his lies. (De 19:15-21) God’s view of malicious lying, as reflected in the Law, has not changed. Those desiring to gain his approval cannot engage in the practice of lying. (Ps 5:6; Pr 20:19; Col 3:9,*10; 1Ti 3:11; Re 21:8,*27; 22:15) They cannot be living a lie, claiming to love God while hating their brother. (1Jo 4:20,*21) For playing false to the holy spirit by lying, Ananias and his wife lost their lives.—Ac 5:1-11.

However, persons who are momentarily overreached in telling a lie do not automatically become guilty of an unforgivable sin. The case of Peter, in denying Jesus three times, illustrates that if a person is truly repentant, God will forgive him.—Mt 26:69-75.

While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it. Jesus Christ counseled: “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw your pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet and turn around and rip you open.” (Mt 7:6) That is why Jesus on certain occasions refrained from giving full information or direct answers to certain questions when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm. (Mt 15:1-6; 21:23-27; Joh 7:3-10) Evidently the course of Abraham, Isaac, Rahab, and Elisha in misdirecting or in withholding full facts from nonworshipers of Jehovah must be viewed in the same light.—Ge 12:10-19; chap 20; 26:1-10; Jos 2:1-6; Jas 2:25; 2Ki 6:11-23.

Now on to the degrees of sin. Once again you have to look back to the original texts of the scriptures.

There are many ways things are rendered in the scriptures:

Errors, Sin, Transgressions, Trespasses, mistakes, and foolishness just for an example.

"error” (Hebrew ‛a·won′)

“transgression” (Hebrew pe′sha‛ and Greek pa·ra′ba·sis)

“trespass” (Greek pa·ra′pto·ma)

“mistake” (shegha·ghah′)

"unrighteousness"(Hebrew a·di·ki′a)

other terms with “sin” (Hebrew chat·ta’th′ and Greek ha·mar·ti′a).

Several different words and slight different meanings for a generally same term.

I wont go into detail of the meanings of each term because I doubt you really care to know. If you do I'll post it another time.

Moving along....

Comparative Gravity of Wrongdoing.

Although sin is sin, and in any case could justly make the guilty one worthy of sin’s “wages,” death, the Scriptures show that God views mankind’s wrongdoing as varying in degrees of gravity. Thus, the men of Sodom were “gross sinners against Jehovah,” and their sin was “very heavy.” (Ge 13:13; 18:20; compare 2Ti 3:6,*7.) The Israelites’ making a golden calf was also called “a great sin” (Ex 32:30,*31), and Jeroboam’s calf worship similarly caused those of the northern kingdom “to sin with a great sin.” (2Ki 17:16,*21) Judah’s sin became “like that of Sodom,” making the kingdom of Judah abhorrent in God’s eyes. (Isa 1:4,*10; 3:9; La 1:8; 4:6) Such a course of disregard for God’s will can make even one’s very prayer become a sin. (Ps 109:7, 8,*14) Since sin is an affront to God’s own person, he is not indifferent to it; as its gravity increases, his indignation and wrath are understandably increased. (Ro 1:18; De 29:22-28; Job 42:7; Ps 21:8,*9) His wrath, however, is not solely due to the involvement of his own person but is likewise stirred by the injury and injustice done to humans and particularly to his faithful servants.—Isa 10:1-4; Mal 2:13-16; 2Th 1:6-10.

Human weakness and ignorance.

Jehovah takes into account the weakness of imperfect men descended from Adam, so that those sincerely seeking Him can say, “He has not done to us even according to our sins; nor according to our errors has he brought upon us what we deserve.” The Scriptures show the wonderful mercy and loving-kindness that God has displayed in his patient dealings with men of flesh. (Ps 103:2, 3, 10-18) He also takes into account ignorance as a contributory factor in sins (1Ti 1:13; compare Lu 12:47,*48), provided such ignorance is not willful. Those who willfully reject the knowledge and wisdom God offers, ‘taking pleasure in unrighteousness,’ are not excused. (2Th 2:9-12; Pr 1:22-33; Ho 4:6-8) Some are temporarily misled from the truth but, with help, turn back (Jas 5:19,*20), while others ‘shut their eyes to the light and forget their earlier cleansing from sins.’—2Pe 1:9.

Not just that... there was also mentioned in the Bible "the unforgivable sin".

Matt 12: 32 - For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

There is single sin versus practice of sin in the Bible.

Sins Against Men, God, and Christ. Etc etc etc.

So there are various degrees and measures of sin. Yes... a sin is a sin... and man cannot judge rightly. Only God knows the complete circumstances of each person.

 

[Phoenix]

While malicious lying is wrong in God's eyes, a person is not obligated to give up information to people who are not entitled to it.

I'll bring the situation again->

Nazi: Do you have Jews in your house? (btw, remaining quiet will probably get them to search your house)

Even Jesus Christ did not give full details or direct answers when doing so could have brought unnecessary harm. Many times he just kept silent. Or he went away into private.

This... isn't lying.

You completely missed my point. My question is simply why do I see more campaigns against homosexuality than I see about lying?

Also,

Thus, the men of Sodom were “gross sinners against Jehovah,” and their sin was “very heavy.” (Ge 13:13; 18:20; compare 2Ti 3:6,*7.)

Sodom's sin was rape, not homosexuality. Give it any interpretation you like, the grave sin was attempted rape against angels.

 

[Stavvy]

Maybe people dislike the idea of homosexuality because everyone isn't gay, but everyone IS a lier. So, even if they don't realize it, you can't really help it.

 

[Forever Atlas]

I'll bring the situation again->

Nazi: Do you have Jews in your house? (btw, remaining quiet will probably get them to search your house)

Going back to the account of Rahab... she was asked the same thing Cannanites: "Do you have spies from Israel in you house?"

Her response was all in all no. When she had them hid upstairs. She was blessed for her actions.

So its up to a person's concience. We can not judge there. If a person lies just for the sake of trying to impress people, to get out of trouble etc.... then thats completely different than the matter of..
"If I tell them yes, these people will die"

Its a matter of concience and I am sure God would not judge adversely a person for not wanting to have blood guilt on their hands.

You completely missed my point. My question is simply why do I see more campaigns against homosexuality than I see about lying?

As Stav said.. its probably because there are more liars than homosexuals. However more people are disgusted by the actions that make people homosexuals than words of untruth that might come out of another person's mouth.

Either way, according to the Bible both are wrong. However people want to say one thing is wrong, but not condemn the other thing because they are taking part in it. Etc etc. Its just people. Its not God or the Bible... its imperfect humans who do that.

Jesus even said to stay seperate from the affairs of the world. So those "christians" who do campaign against homosexuality arent even paying mind to Jesus' admonitions. Sooo people will do w/e they want. We all know that.

Homosexuals will be homosexuals unless who knows some change but most dont. Compulsive liars will lie. Some change... but most wont.

Thing is we shouldnt feel its our duty to take matters into our own hands. But people will do that. We know that there are people who will not even stop at worlds end to get what they want... so you'll have those who will campaign against and for things. Its just the way our society is.

 

[Et Cetera]

Lying is the best thing you can do to protect your loved ones =P

 

[Nyangoro]

@Phoenix

Honestly, it's probably a culteral thing more than a straightforward religious issue. I mean, most would say that theft and murder is worse than lying, and yet we don't use words like "Kleptophobes" or "Homiphobes" when describing the person. Likewise, a religion says all of these are equally wrong, so by religious terms, there isn't a difference.

Since lying is commonplace, most don't think about it, like Atlas. Also, since Homosexuality is treated as natural by the media (majority wise), and the actual opinion is somewhat split among people; it causes the more heated debates, because not only is it about personal morality issues, but also about cultural differences (which I think would cause a bigger spark than just religious differences).

 

[Phoenix]

Going back to the account of Rahab... she was asked the same thing Cannanites: "Do you have spies from Israel in you house?"

Her response was all in all no. When she had them hid upstairs. She was blessed for her actions.

So its up to a person's concience. We can not judge there. If a person lies just for the sake of trying to impress people, to get out of trouble etc.... then thats completely different than the matter of..
"If I tell them yes, these people will die"

Its a matter of concience and I am sure God would not judge adversely a person for not wanting to have blood guilt on their hands.

So, if a homosexual marries another homosexual out of true love, it's fine. Conscience and all.

As Stav said.. its probably because there are more liars than homosexuals. However more people are disgusted by the actions that make people homosexuals than words of untruth that might come out of another person's mouth.

Either way, according to the Bible both are wrong. However people want to say one thing is wrong, but not condemn the other thing because they are taking part in it. Etc etc. Its just people. Its not God or the Bible... its imperfect humans who do that.

Jesus even said to stay seperate from the affairs of the world. So those "christians" who do campaign against homosexuality arent even paying mind to Jesus' admonitions. Sooo people will do w/e they want. We all know that.

Homosexuals will be homosexuals unless who knows some change but most dont. Compulsive liars will lie. Some change... but most wont.

Thing is we shouldnt feel its our duty to take matters into our own hands. But people will do that. We know that there are people who will not even stop at worlds end to get what they want... so you'll have those who will campaign against and for things. Its just the way our society is.

I assume that a compulsive liar can undergo therapy and deal with it, but how can you do that with sexuality?

Since lying is commonplace, most don't think about it, like Atlas. Also, since Homosexuality is treated as natural by the media (majority wise), and the actual opinion is somewhat split among people; it causes the more heated debates, because not only is it about personal morality issues, but also about cultural differences (which I think would cause a bigger spark than just religious differences).

Hence of why I was waiting for the people who condemn homosexuality every 2 posts to come, but they didn't

 

[Forever Atlas]

So, if a homosexual marries another homosexual out of true love, it's fine. Conscience and all.

You miss my point or once again try twist my words. I was answering your question about lying.

How is making the choice to live life as a homosexual saving lives?

Anyway... without answering you directly on this note.... I'll ask another question.

If a 40 year old man genuinely has feelings for a 12 year old girl... and sees nothing wrong with it... does that make it right to act upon his feelings?

I assume that a compulsive liar can undergo therapy and deal with it, but how can you do that with sexuality?

With great effort and help. Its been done.

 

[Angel Shards]

With great effort and help. Its been done. [in regards to homosexuality]

Wow... that is probably the most insulting thing I have ever heard. So, with great effort and help, homosexuals can supress who they are and what they feel? What a terrible world we still live in. No wonder if *may* be coming to an end.

 

[Forever Atlas]

Wow... that is probably the most insulting thing I have ever heard. So, with great effort and help, homosexuals can supress who they are and what they feel? What a terrible world we still live in. No wonder if *may* be coming to an end.

Well take it as you may. I didnt mean for it to be insulting. He asked a question and I gave the facts. It HAS been done. And its not easy so it takes a lot of effort and help. Nothing was wrong with what I said. And who was only speaking about homosexuals? He said "sexuality"

Yes homosexuality was the main topic of concern, but that could aslo mean a man who has sexual thoughts about little girls.... a rapist... or a young boy who is obsessed with touching others... etc etc...

Are you.... telling me that rapists and pedophiles should be able to do what they want because it would be wrong to supress their hmm... "natural" desires? It is after all what they really feel... and... who they are....

 

[Phoenix]

You miss my point or once again try twist my words. I was answering your question about lying.

How is making the choice to live life as a homosexual saving lives?

You know, I just realized something. Your whole premise is based on your belief that homosexuality can be changed. If it's proved that homosexuality is encoded in our genes, or otherwise unchangeable, you'd stop being a Christian?

Anyway... without answering you directly on this note.... I'll ask another question.

If a 40 year old man genuinely has feelings for a 12 year old girl... and sees nothing wrong with it... does that make it right to act upon his feelings?

Aside from the fact that we have laws? The girl isn't mature enough to make that decision, and abuse comes so terribly easy in that situation, but emotional and physical. The law there exists to protect the minor. Who does the law banning homosexual marriage protect?

Are you.... telling me that rapists and pedophiles should be able to do what they want because it would be wrong to supress their hmm... "natural" desires? It is after all what they really feel... and... who they are....

I love it how you compare abuse and violation of rights with homosexuality.

In the case of a rapist, who he is is violating other people's rights. How does the same situation come up with 2 consenting homosexuals?

 

[square-enix]

Well, first, I'd like to say... a few people say that its human nature to lie. Its not human nature to lie. It might be the inclination to avoid something with untruths, but its not nature. We are more inclined to hide things, but it doesnt mean it is in us to lie.

As the little wiki puts it... human nature is the set of logical characteristics, including ways of thinking, feeling and acting, that all normal human beings have in common.

Problem being, your logic is off base. "As the little wiki puts it... human nature is the set of logical characteristics including ways of thinking, feeling and acting, that all normal human beings have in common."
See where it says "logic" and "thinking"? When someone's in trouble, the logical thing for them to do is to lie because it gets them out of trouble for the moment. It's one of the first reactions because for that time span, you're free from blame.

Its not human nature to lie. It might be the inclination to avoid something with untruths, but its not nature.

So, you're saying that people are more inclined to avoid things that are false. Like, Invisible Pink Unicorns or Dragons or some such. Well, the part that is in bold does not disprove that lying is part of human nature nor is there any correlation between inclination to avoid false claims and lying.

We are more inclined to hide things, but it doesnt mean it is in us to lie.

From what you just said,
If you cheated on your wife and hid that fact, you weren't be lying.
If you broke your best friend's tv and didn't tell him/her, you aren't lying
If you killed someone, but the police never questioned you because you didn't call them to arrest you, you weren't be lying.
If you invited a friend to a club but hid the fact that it was a pyramid scheme, you wouldn't be lying.
Apparently "hiding things" and "lying" are two very different things to you. And to you, "hiding things" is human nature (or at least, you think people are more inclined to do it) but it's not human nature to "lie"
This should certainly clear up matters on your definition of "lying".

So I personally wouldnt say it is human NATURE to lie. However it is a route that many take because of our tendency to want to avoid certain things that may cause hurt distress or bring consequences for actions.

Human NATURE is "According to the accepted modern scientific understanding, human nature is the range of human behavior that is believed to be normal and/or invariant over long periods of time and across very different cultural contexts." [1] Many people lie which means it is the norm which means it is part of human nature. Not a very difficult concept to get. Bold words are there to help you understand.

Now on to the degrees of sin. Once again you have to look back to the original texts of the scriptures.

There are many ways things are rendered in the scriptures:

Errors, Sin, Transgressions, Trespasses, mistakes, and foolishness just for an example.

"error” (Hebrew ‛a·won′)

“transgression” (Hebrew pe′sha‛ and Greek pa·ra′ba·sis)

“trespass” (Greek pa·ra′pto·ma)

“mistake” (shegha·ghah′)

"unrighteousness"(Hebrew a·di·ki′a)

other terms with “sin” (Hebrew chat·ta’th′ and Greek ha·mar·ti′a).

Several different words and slight different meanings for a generally same term.

I wont go into detail of the meanings of each term because I doubt you really care to know. If you do I'll post it another time.

Moving along....

Forever Atlas starts off by typing "Now on to the degrees of sin" but goes on to give what I believe is the Hebrew equivalent. Now, maybe it's just me, but where exactly is it showing where God decides the severity of each sin? Someone help me.

However, persons who are momentarily overreached in telling a lie do not automatically become guilty of an unforgivable sin. The case of Peter, in denying Jesus three times, illustrates that if a person is truly repentant, God will forgive him.—Mt 26:69-75.

While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible....Ge 12:10-19; chap 20; 26:1-10; Jos 2:1-6; Jas 2:25; 2Ki 6:11-23.
Comparative Gravity of Wrongdoing.
Human weakness and ignorance.

Not just that... there was also mentioned in the Bible "the unforgivable sin".

Matt 12: 32 - For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

There is single sin versus practice of sin in the Bible.

Sins Against Men, God, and Christ. Etc etc etc.

So there are various degrees and measures of sin. Yes... a sin is a sin... and man cannot judge rightly. Only God knows the complete circumstances of each person.

And there are three immediate problems that come to mind by you posting these passages.

The first problem being that, you excerpted from Insight on the Scriptures which has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. You were asked for biblical proof, not interpretations from Jehovah Witnesses. In fact, I checked out Mt 26:69-75 and the conclusion they came up with is groundless. The passage mentions nothing about God forgiving Peter if he repented. The passage ends with saying that Peter cried because he denounced Jesus. The bit about God forgiving you if you truly repented came from the author. He had no biblical support. I'm sure there are other groundless interpretations that were made in the passages you copied.

The second problem is that all of the interpretations (note that the term "bible passages" was not used) made by the author(s) "proved" that there are varying degrees of lying. (according to them) But, you were not asked to prove if there were varying degrees of lying. You were asked to prove if God judged each each sin differently. Hence the whole discussion as to why homosexuality is harped on but lying isn't. None of the interpretations you cited prove that each sin is treated on a different scale.

The last problem is validity. Are the Commandments, which say nothing about the level of severity of each sin, or the inaccurate interpretations by Jehovah Witnesses from bible passages more valid in deciding if there are different degrees of lying?

On a side note, homosexuality and abortion are not mentioned in the Commandments, but Evangelicals focus on those two issues more than lying, which is in the Commandments.

 

[Electropop]

I was told in DARE that if someone asked me if I wanted to do drugs I was told to lie.

"Nah man I got dishes to do at home" Is that considered a 'lie'? Really. Or we so screwed up that there like well... "She said so she wouldnt have to do drugs so I guess its okay"

Im just wondering.

 

[Forever Atlas]

Well I answered the Qs I said Id answer and Im not going to debate on something that each side will never reach an agreement on so I said what I had to say and Im done.

If you must misinterpret what I say or just have some sort of hmmm I dont know.... annoyance, hatred, or w/e towards me so that you are bent on finding something to try prove me wrong in.. go ahead. No prob.

Now you bitter people can go on and talk about me not being man enough, not having any "comeback" etc etc.... not doing research so on and so on. (Ive heard it all) w/e believe what you may about me.... has no effect on me. Fact is.... I have only so much time to live... we may not know what'll happen to us the next moment. So I'd rather spend time doing productive things than being online having arguments with people I dont know on matters that chances are neither side will change their bias towards and gaining nothing nor giving anything.

(oh and yes.... I called you bitter... like wormwood ;-] )

So it was great seeing what you had to say. Hope you appreciated my input on it too....

More debates will just cause harsher feelings.

I prefer warm love =p

(btw: hope you dont take this harshly or as insulting. Its not meant to be.... but I know some of you are.... SEN-seee-TIV)

 

[Phoenix]

"Nah man I got dishes to do at home" Is that considered a 'lie'? Really. Or we so screwed up that there like well... "She said so she wouldnt have to do drugs so I guess its okay"

Of course it's a lie, what else would it be?

Well I answered the Qs I said Id answer and Im not going to debate on something that each side will never reach an agreement on so I said what I had to say and Im done.

If you must misinterpret what I say or just have some sort of hmmm I dont know.... annoyance, hatred, or w/e towards me so that you are bent on finding something to try prove me wrong in.. go ahead. No prob.

Now you bitter people can go on and talk about me not being man enough, not having any "comeback" etc etc.... not doing research so on and so on. (Ive heard it all) w/e believe what you may about me.... has no effect on me. Fact is.... I have only so much time to live... we may not know what'll happen to us the next moment. So I'd rather spend time doing productive things than being online having arguments with people I dont know on matters that chances are neither side will change their bias towards and gaining nothing nor giving anything.

(oh and yes.... I called you bitter... like wormwood ;-] )

So it was great seeing what you had to say. Hope you appreciated my input on it too....

More debates will just cause harsher feelings.

I prefer warm love =p

(btw: hope you dont take this harshly or as insulting. Its not meant to be.... but I know some of you are.... SEN-seee-TIV)

I'm confused. You came into my thread and expected that a debate would not form or something? If you introduce ideas, you're expected to defend them. If you can't, why even bother?

 

[Nyangoro]

I'm confused. You came into my thread and expected that a debate would not form or something? If you introduce ideas, you're expected to defend them. If you can't, why even bother?

He's saying that he won't (and has no need to) continue a debate that he feels will eventually end with the phrase "We'll have to agree to disagree".

 

[square-enix]

He's saying that he won't (and has no need to) continue a debate that he feels will eventually end with the phrase "We'll have to agree to disagree".

You're more than free to believe that, but none of the retorts in Phoenix's, mine, or anyone else's post should merit a "err well, i don't feel like responding to you guys cause i have a life, while you guys don't and are bitter people. I do however have enough time to make countless threads, but I don't want to respond to you guys cause nothing is gained." because he insults us and then presumes that we are going to insult him by saying he's not "man enough". Which we've done neither. But he has, not that the insults are harmful, but all the same.
Aside from biblical interpretations, nothing else really ends in "we'll have to agree to disagree" The only reason why so many of these threads end in "stalemates" is because biblical passages are always posted and it's so easy to get away with bullshitting because you can't "prove" the guy is bullshitting because it's his "interpretation"
Take this dialog as an example

Guy A: "You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)" Clearly means that witches/magic users should be killed.

Guy B: No, not quite. It means that God is forgiving and he doesn't really mean you should "kill" sorceress. It just means you shouldn't let them live. It doesn't mean you kill.

Guy A: Can't read, can you?

Guy B: It's my interpretation. Why are you debating with you?

Any reasonable person knows Guy B is wrong but Guy B could go on forever because you can't prove he's wrong because it's his interpretation. In fact, it doesn't even have to be biblical passages. Guy A could point out that Guy B contradicted himself. Guy B responds with "no, I meant..." or "you're reading it wrong". You can't "prove" that Guy B is bullshitting but you know he is, nor can you force him to admit he's wrong. These arguments end in stalemates because one side doesn't want to admit they're clearly in the wrong.
Guy B could contradict himself dozens of times, and none of that will make him post "I was wrong" or he could simply dodge the retorts from Guy A and change the subject.

There should be absolutely no problem in responding to what I've posted because they're all retorts to what he has said. He can either, affirm that my posts are accurate (example: he said that we're more inclined to hide things, but not "lie" and I gave a list of examples he would agree with) or admit that he was wrong/prove that I'm wrong (example: he says that we have a tendency to lie, but that's not human nature, and I gave him a source disproving that)

There's really no "we'll have to agree to disagree" arguments that I see, but feel free to point them out seeing as how you seem to be in sync with Forever Atlas on most issues.

 

[Forever Atlas]

why do you guys insist on doing this =< You ask a question... I answer, then you COMPLETELY FORGET that I was responding that that immediate question .... pick at my answer, and then turn it around and say something else like I knew that was what you were thinking? >.> Im not a mind reader guys.

I'm confused. You came into my thread and expected that a debate would not form or something? If you introduce ideas, you're expected to defend them. If you can't, why even bother?

Okay well let me clear this up.

As you have stated many times in my threads… it’s a public forum.

Anyway, I knew a debate would brew. However, I stated very clearly from the start, that if the debate went off into the homosexual/bisexual tangent, then I would not participate. I answered the main question that you asked. Then you asked me to clear up some minor things after I did that.

Now the posts that I made are now being pulled apart even more and attacked at every corner. I don’t have to respond to those, for they will not really add to the productiveness or answering of the main/opening post of the thread. You yourself know that no matter what I post, you will have something to say contrary to it. I’m not saying its bad… but its not really needed. It will just cause more “anger” if you may, to rise up in people who disagree causing bigger rifts in this already torn society and forum. It is debates like this on a major level that cause the divisions in society. After all, if people kept their ideas to themselves or did not respond to everything that they don’t agree with, wouldn’t you agree that things would be a bit more quiet as to debates and conflicts?

That’s all… I just don’t want to add fuel to the fire =/

He's saying that he won't (and has no need to) continue a debate that he feels will eventually end with the phrase "We'll have to agree to disagree".

Pretty much I guess lol

You're more than free to believe that, but none of the retorts in Phoenix's, mine, or anyone else's post should merit a "err well, i don't feel like responding to you guys cause i have a life, while you guys don't and are bitter people.

Why thank you

I do however have enough time to make countless threads, but I don't want to respond to you guys cause nothing is gained.

Quite…. You seem to be on track so far.

Thing is... the other threads I can enjoy, learn stuff in maybe, help others... hmm... and not be attacked in... the threads that I know tempers will flare up and i will be attacked.. I ignore the claims and just carry on.

You should know if you read all my posts I always try to keep things peaceful and respectful from the start. (and if its in any thread like this... those threads usually die because I want that respect and peace in place)

" because he insults us

Ah see? I figured some of you were sensitive. I guess you missed my apology before hand because I knew some of you would take it harshly… but it was far from an insult.

and then presumes that we are going to insult him by saying he's not "man enough". Which we've done neither.

Lol…… I wouldn’t go there, for I could pull out quite a few… links and all buddy

Aside from biblical interpretations, nothing else really ends in "we'll have to agree to disagree"

Correct… actually, most of them just never end…. >.>

The only reason why so many of these threads end in "stalemates" is because biblical passages are always posted and it's so easy to get away with bullshitting because you can't "prove" the guy is bullshitting because it's his "interpretation"

And yet everyone thinks they are correct hmmm… but there can only be one truth… so which one is it? I guess we’ll have to wait and see?

Any reasonable person knows Guy B is wrong but Guy B could go on forever because you can't prove he's wrong because it's his interpretation. In fact, it doesn't even have to be biblical passages. Guy A could point out that Guy B contradicted himself. Guy B responds with "no, I meant..." or "you're reading it wrong". You can't "prove" that Guy B is bullshitting but you know he is, nor can you force him to admit he's wrong. These arguments end in stalemates because one side doesn't want to admit they're clearly in the wrong.
Guy B could contradict himself dozens of times, and none of that will make him post "I was wrong" or he could simply dodge the retorts from Guy A and change the subject.

WAAAIT a minute! Haha I AM guy B aren’t I? You little sly devil you!

There should be absolutely no problem in responding to what I've posted because they're all retorts to what he has said.

No problem, I am now… however not to the other posts, for it will just cause more upset and disruption… we wont agree on this topic… that’s that. You know it, and I know it… what benefit is there to continuing. If you can tell me the benefit I’d love to hear it

So I put my input on the main topic... I will not add any more to the getting more off topic or getting into topics that other threads are already made for.

 

[Amata]

Yes, lying is a sin. But sometimes it's necessary. You know, that whole concept of a "white lie". Sometimes, if you want to protect your friends/families/partners feelings, (i.e because of the infamous question, "Do I look fat in this?") it's sometimes a better idea not to tell them the whole truth.

But that does not mean to say that deception is okay... but I find it hard to believe that God, or any higher power would want us to constantly tell the truth when sometimes that would be very destructive for your relationships and the people around you.

 

[Joy]

Stupid computer .